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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    I mean that the Duology refers to events from the Jedi Academy trilogy as events in the past tense. The one set of books refers to the other. Again, that's how I know about events in the Jedi Academy trilogy, since I didn't read those specific books but did read others which take their storylines for granted.

    Respectfully,

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    OK, I getcha now, sorry!

    I don't know if id call that story beat from the duology though, it's pretty relegated to background info, and mostly for the sake of Luke's interplay with Mara Jade.
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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    I think this is one of my largest complaints about the entire franchise: The New Republic is not workable . Left to itself, it will be subverted by some dark side force user and converted into an Empire in hardly any time at all. Ordinary people have very little chance against someone who can read minds and employ Jedi Mind tricks. Even if they aren't a gifted politician themselves, they can partner with one or use one as a front.
    Jedi Mind tricks only work on the 'weak minded' most politicians of any significance and most non-buffoonish military officers are immune. You can't mind trick your way into rule of the galaxy. The real problem with the New Republic, or in fact democratic control of the Star Wars galaxy is that galaxies is too big. There are tens of millions of settled planets and millions of sapient species. A workable democratic system at the galactic scale just doesn't function effectively. This, by the way, is actually why Thrawn is allied with the Empire - he believes democracy is impossible given the variant viewpoints of different species and that the only path to stability is to have one authoritarian power crush all the others (I believe he gives Pellaeon a speech to this effect in Choices of One).

    The only reason the New Republic exists at all is because Heroes keep stepping in to bail them out. I look at that as using the handles on a cardiac patient who is dead. If the heart won't beat on its own however many times you apply the panels, if you can't let it run on its own for more than a few seconds without having to save their lives, it's time to give it up and call in the burial detail.
    Legends authors chose to deliberately sabotage the New Republic - especially in the post-NJO portion of the timeline - because a functional, decent, government presented an insurmountable obstacle to 'the galaxy is in peril!' for any active agent with resources below the level of the Yuuzhan Vong, and they refused to reduce the central stories down to smaller stakes for various reasons. Those authors were also utterly uninterested in spending any time world-building the New Republic's actual government. We have a far better understanding of how the government of Mandalore, a decrepit province millennia past the height of its influence, works than we do of the New Republic and that's because Karen Traviss was very specifically obsessed with her vision of the Mandalorians.

    The very few stories detail the function of the galactic government in Star Wars with any sort of world-building detail - including the prequels! The best study in 'how the Senate functions' on the level of actual operations is still found in the Black Fleet Crisis series of novels.

    The only reason the Old Republic could make it work was because they had the original Jedi council to protect against such dark siders. That was the product of many generations of effort. Rebuilding a stable Jedi Council when a large percentage of your students will go dark at their first taste of Force Power is not something that is done in a year. Until such a council is in place the Galaxy is going to NEED to be under the tutelage or protection of a force user or small group of force users who can keep the whole thing from running off the rails until a proper Jedi Order can provide stability again. Which means, in short, an Empire.
    It doesn't require an empire, but it does require a strong government with substantial powers. The Old Republic was an institutionally weak democracy. Again the world-building was limited, but there are some obvious examples. Notably, the post-Ruusan Republic had no army at all. It had to rely on Jedi and a small group of law enforcement officials (the Judicial Department) to try and keep the peace. This worked, partially, when the Republic was smaller and the Jedi Order was larger. By the later period of the Old Republic, meaning like by 100 BBY, decades before the Prequels, this wasn't workable anymore. The Republic had gotten too big and the number of Jedi had declined massively (in the Disney canon we may be able to attribute the latter to losses in the 'High Republic' era, but I suppose that's not yet determined).

    It was even worse for the New Republic because they took power following a decades-long military buildup bigger than anything seen in the history of the galaxy. Both versions of canon have the New Republic gradually draw-down military strength because maintaining Empire levels of readiness required an unsustainable tax burden. In Legends this happened gradually and was connected to the New Republic spending a decade-plus in bitter conflict across the galaxy in which they gradually captured, destroyed, or scrapped huge portions of the Imperial war machine. In the Disney canon it somehow magically happens via a peace treaty.

    The Hand of Thrawn duology clearly envisions of post-peace-with-the-Empire New Republic with strong institutions - such as an extremely potent intelligence service run by Karrde - and a strong centralized military capable of keeping the peace between competing factions. It's an incomplete vision, but it's certainly the seed of a workable structure. Unfortunately, the license shifted from Bantam to Del Rey at that point and in order to make a big splash Del Rey rejected any period of prolonged peace and smashed a giant alien invasion into the galaxy.


    Ultimately the property is titled 'Star Wars' not Star Peace, and government dysfunction is a shortcut to war, so glimpses of a functional government are rare. The problem with Star Wars has been that the various dysfunctional episodes used to justify many of the more recent stories, such as the post-NJO Legends plots, the ST, and even later expansions of SWTOR (Chancellor Saresh goes all tyrannical because reasons), have been either asserted via outright fiat or extremely poorly justified.
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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Jedi Mind tricks only work on the 'weak minded' most politicians of any significance and most non-buffoonish military officers are immune. You can't mind trick your way into rule of the galaxy. The real problem with the New Republic, or in fact democratic control of the Star Wars galaxy is that galaxies is too big. There are tens of millions of settled planets and millions of sapient species. A workable democratic system at the galactic scale just doesn't function effectively. This, by the way, is actually why Thrawn is allied with the Empire - he believes democracy is impossible given the variant viewpoints of different species and that the only path to stability is to have one authoritarian power crush all the others (I believe he gives Pellaeon a speech to this effect in Choices of One).



    Legends authors chose to deliberately sabotage the New Republic - especially in the post-NJO portion of the timeline - because a functional, decent, government presented an insurmountable obstacle to 'the galaxy is in peril!' for any active agent with resources below the level of the Yuuzhan Vong, and they refused to reduce the central stories down to smaller stakes for various reasons. Those authors were also utterly uninterested in spending any time world-building the New Republic's actual government. We have a far better understanding of how the government of Mandalore, a decrepit province millennia past the height of its influence, works than we do of the New Republic and that's because Karen Traviss was very specifically obsessed with her vision of the Mandalorians.

    The very few stories detail the function of the galactic government in Star Wars with any sort of world-building detail - including the prequels! The best study in 'how the Senate functions' on the level of actual operations is still found in the Black Fleet Crisis series of novels.



    It doesn't require an empire, but it does require a strong government with substantial powers. The Old Republic was an institutionally weak democracy. Again the world-building was limited, but there are some obvious examples. Notably, the post-Ruusan Republic had no army at all. It had to rely on Jedi and a small group of law enforcement officials (the Judicial Department) to try and keep the peace. This worked, partially, when the Republic was smaller and the Jedi Order was larger. By the later period of the Old Republic, meaning like by 100 BBY, decades before the Prequels, this wasn't workable anymore. The Republic had gotten too big and the number of Jedi had declined massively (in the Disney canon we may be able to attribute the latter to losses in the 'High Republic' era, but I suppose that's not yet determined).

    It was even worse for the New Republic because they took power following a decades-long military buildup bigger than anything seen in the history of the galaxy. Both versions of canon have the New Republic gradually draw-down military strength because maintaining Empire levels of readiness required an unsustainable tax burden. In Legends this happened gradually and was connected to the New Republic spending a decade-plus in bitter conflict across the galaxy in which they gradually captured, destroyed, or scrapped huge portions of the Imperial war machine. In the Disney canon it somehow magically happens via a peace treaty.

    The Hand of Thrawn duology clearly envisions of post-peace-with-the-Empire New Republic with strong institutions - such as an extremely potent intelligence service run by Karrde - and a strong centralized military capable of keeping the peace between competing factions. It's an incomplete vision, but it's certainly the seed of a workable structure. Unfortunately, the license shifted from Bantam to Del Rey at that point and in order to make a big splash Del Rey rejected any period of prolonged peace and smashed a giant alien invasion into the galaxy.


    Ultimately the property is titled 'Star Wars' not Star Peace, and government dysfunction is a shortcut to war, so glimpses of a functional government are rare. The problem with Star Wars has been that the various dysfunctional episodes used to justify many of the more recent stories, such as the post-NJO Legends plots, the ST, and even later expansions of SWTOR (Chancellor Saresh goes all tyrannical because reasons), have been either asserted via outright fiat or extremely poorly justified.
    Speaking of poor woldbuilding, there really just...isn't any, literally. Sure, the universe has worldbuilding in a conceptual sense, but there's next to nothing on the vast majority of worlds. Usually just one or two population centers and then just some kind of biome-type for the rest of it.

    Like, Star Wars could be condensed down into probably, one planet, maybe 2. And it would be a Battle-Angel-Alita-style dystopian cyberpunk. There's one megalopolis, there's a big desert of poor people, there's a big forest of ape-people, there's a big icy polar region, there's a big volcanic strip-mined production region, there's a big swampy region (probably next to the forest region). There are pockets of absurdly wealthy and isolated elites. The "bad guy planet" has all the same stuff but it's all eeeeeeevil!!! Or sans "Planet 2" the bad guys just live on the other side of the planet Transformers Iacon/Kaon style.

    We've got a massively wealthy core metropolis that looks nice on the surface but is horrifying underneath surrounded by impoverished areas that can barely sustain themselves and have little political influence and almost zero protection. Spotted around the planet are places of extreme wealth and decadence the likes of which the poors can barely imagine. The snowcapped peaks of Arkania, the forested mountains of Alderaan. These nations have private police forces and are insulated from the UN-style politics of the Core, provided they still "bend the knee".

    Meanwhile on the far side of the planet the Empire reigns in desolation between the dread Korriban Desert and the Lightning Forest of Drommund Kass. But this distant power occasionally rises up to attempt to conquer the world, typically leaving the planet desolated for generations.

    Uh...excuse me while I go world build....
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  4. - Top - End - #844
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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    I think this is one of my largest complaints about the entire franchise: The New Republic is not workable . Left to itself, it will be subverted by some dark side force user and converted into an Empire in hardly any time at all. Ordinary people have very little chance against someone who can read minds and employ Jedi Mind tricks. Even if they aren't a gifted politician themselves, they can partner with one or use one as a front.

    The only reason the New Republic exists at all is because Heroes keep stepping in to bail them out. I look at that as using the handles on a cardiac patient who is dead. If the heart won't beat on its own however many times you apply the panels, if you can't let it run on its own for more than a few seconds without having to save their lives, it's time to give it up and call in the burial detail.

    The only reason the Old Republic could make it work was because they had the original Jedi council to protect against such dark siders. That was the product of many generations of effort. Rebuilding a stable Jedi Council when a large percentage of your students will go dark at their first taste of Force Power is not something that is done in a year. Until such a council is in place the Galaxy is going to NEED to be under the tutelage or protection of a force user or small group of force users who can keep the whole thing from running off the rails until a proper Jedi Order can provide stability again. Which means, in short, an Empire.
    I'm sorry but "in order to avoid the galaxy falling under the control of a handful of Force users, it should be put under the control of a handful of Force users" is a weird position.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    The real problem with the New Republic, or in fact democratic control of the Star Wars galaxy is that galaxies is too big. There are tens of millions of settled planets and millions of sapient species. A workable democratic system at the galactic scale just doesn't function effectively.
    With how fast communication is in the SW universe there is no reason that would be true. In fact the largeness of the galaxy would rather be a reason why a centralized authoritarian government would be terrible (well even more so than usual) rather tha'a democratic federal one since it would require a huge bureaucracy to keep track of everything which slows decision making considerably (and is fertile ground for rampant corruption) instead of letting the locals sort their own problems out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
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  5. - Top - End - #845
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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    With how fast communication is in the SW universe there is no reason that would be true. In fact the largeness of the galaxy would rather be a reason why a centralized authoritarian government would be terrible (well even more so than usual) rather tha'a democratic federal one since it would require a huge bureaucracy to keep track of everything which slows decision making considerably (and is fertile ground for rampant corruption) instead of letting the locals sort their own problems out.
    Letting the locals 'sort their own problems out' was the problem. In fact, this is the point the Hand of Thrawn Duology made explicitly. With so many different alien species and planetary cultures and a massive 25,000 years of messy history to accumulate grudges, everyone hated someone else. The most important of the galactic-scale government, in Star Wars, is to prevent neighboring systems from murdering each other and militant cultures - like, ahem, the Mandalorians - from rampaging across huge portions of the galaxy unimpeded.

    The Old Republic's approach to solving this was to slap a Jedi-shaped band aid over every conflict, sometimes on repeat forever and to ignore many problems. This worked so long as the number of Jedi exceeded the number of problems, when that stopped being the case they simply ignored a huge portion of the problems that arose, with the consequence that the Hutts gained de facto control over a stretch of territory almost as large as that of the CIS in the final century of the Old Republic, at least tripling their traditional holdings.

    Palpatine's approach to the problem was to take the largest group in the galaxy with even the least unifying characteristics - the humans - and dominate everything by main force. He actually federalized his control further than the Old Republic ever did: "The regional governors now have direct control over their territories." This line represents elevating sector level control above that of galactic level control. The problem was that doing this was phenomenally expensive, even with all the various cheats like slave labor and massively destructive extractive enterprises the Empire tried, and also that such a massive military meant it had too many high-ranking commanders to insure loyalty so that various admirals/generals/Moffs kept trying to murder him. Palpatine tried to build various superweapons to get around that particular issue. The big advantage of the Death Star isn't that it could obliterate planets, any big enough fleet could do that (Han even notes this in ANH), it was that it could blast through a planetary shield completely unimpeded, doing in seconds with a single discard what would take a combined space and ground assault weeks or more under conventional circumstances.

    The New Republic faced the problem that neither the 'crushingly expensive military buildup' nor the 'xenocidal superweapons' approach fit with their moral code. Both the Legends and Disney canon scenarios involve the New Republic starting to fray immediately following peace with the Empire as a consequence - it's just that path to achieving said peace unfolds very differently in the two continuities. Circling back, this is something we see in The Mandalorian. The New Republic presence in the Outer Rim is tiny, a handful of X-wings patrolling many star systems and sufficiently desperate that they'll recruit deserters like Cara Dune to stand as their agents.
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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    The big advantage of the Death Star isn't that it could obliterate planets, any big enough fleet could do that (Han even notes this in ANH), it was that it could blast through a planetary shield completely unimpeded, doing in seconds with a single discard what would take a combined space and ground assault weeks or more under conventional circumstances.
    Han says "the entire fleet couldn't destroy the whole planet" and then "It'd take a thousand ships-" and cuts off his comment when he hears the beeping warning of an approaching TIE fighter.

    The novelisation continues the phrase with "amassing a lot more firepower than has ever existed".

    So, at least at the time, the entire Imperial fleet couldn't destroy a planet in the "shatter it to bits" sense.
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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Han says "the entire fleet couldn't destroy the whole planet" and then "It'd take a thousand ships-" and cuts off his comment when he hears the beeping warning of an approaching TIE fighter.

    The novelisation continues the phrase with "amassing a lot more firepower than has ever existed".
    IIRC the movie still has him get out "with more firepower than I've ever-" before he gets cut off.
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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Yup - I figure he meant that each ship would have to have more firepower than he's ever seen before, and that there would need to be at least a thousand of them - a thousand ships each with more firepower than the biggest Super Star Destroyers that existed at the time.
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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    So, at least at the time, the entire Imperial fleet couldn't destroy a planet in the "shatter it to bits" sense.
    If you take as a reference point the thing that the Empire could do, which is to entirely destroy the surface of a planet to such a degree that no life remains and it is impractical or impossible to return it to a life bearing state*, the energy required to completely destroy a planet to the point that the fragments fly apart and do not reconstitute under their own gravity is actually a hundred million times greater.

    The Death Star was not only significant because it could defeat a planetary shield, but because the absolute destruction of a planet was a psychological step greater than what could and had been done elsewhere.

    * We don't actually know how much resource had to be devoted to doing so, but in Vision of the Future the planet of Emberlene is revealed to have been destroyed in this matter by freelance mercenaries, so it is not unreasonable to suggest that a relatively small Imperial operation could do so, barring the presence of a planetary shield.

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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Yup - I figure he meant that each ship would have to have more firepower than he's ever seen before, and that there would need to be at least a thousand of them - a thousand ships each with more firepower than the biggest Super Star Destroyers that existed at the time.
    In fairness we don't know what ships Han had seen in his life, or how much firepower he had seen them deploy (or how accurate he was with his claim).

    It is like when Obi-Wan became more powerful then Vader could possibly imagine he might have just failed to factor in Vader's limited imagination.

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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    In fairness we don't know what ships Han had seen in his life, or how much firepower he had seen them deploy (or how accurate he was with his claim).

    It is like when Obi-Wan became more powerful then Vader could possibly imagine he might have just failed to factor in Vader's limited imagination.
    Alternate scene where the characters got into it on the Falcon:

    Obi-Wan Kenobi: if you strike me down and I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

    Han Solo: I don't know, I can imagine quite a bit.
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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Jedi Mind tricks only work on the 'weak minded' most politicians of any significance and most non-buffoonish military officers are immune. You can't mind trick your way into rule of the galaxy. The real problem with the New Republic, or in fact democratic control of the Star Wars galaxy is that galaxies is too big. There are tens of millions of settled planets and millions of sapient species. A workable democratic system at the galactic scale just doesn't function effectively. This, by the way, is actually why Thrawn is allied with the Empire - he believes democracy is impossible given the variant viewpoints of different species and that the only path to stability is to have one authoritarian power crush all the others (I believe he gives Pellaeon a speech to this effect in Choices of One).
    While this is not unreasonable given the ST universe, it'd be nice to see them consider other options. More distributed, independent rule, for instance. I mean, it crops up in practice anyways. No system actually appears to rule the whole galaxy effectively at any point, even the Empire.

    Disney in particular is, as you say, mostly handwaving any government stuff, which does undercut a lot of the reasons for fighting. We can certainly presume that the folks wearing black and with a dude wielding a red lightsaber are probably not amazing leaders, but we're left wondering how they got so many followers and so much hardware then. It's hard to see the respective republics as competent or effective when they're always put in a position of faceplanting while the bad guys have a large, orderly, at least sometimes effective system.

    I mean, I'm not asking for Game of Thrones or Dune level political drama. Star Wars is ultimately further on the fantasy spectrum than either of those...but at least a bit better sense of motivations and advantages in general would be nice.

    Thrawn kind of hits that. We understand at least a bit of how he's powerful, and why. His motivations run totally counter to the heroes, but there's a thread of logic there that we don't have for, say, Snoke.

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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Originally Posted by hamishspence
    Han says "the entire fleet couldn't destroy the whole planet" and then "It'd take a thousand ships-" and cuts off his comment when he hears the beeping warning of an approaching TIE fighter.
    Originally Posted by Peelee
    IIRC the movie still has him get out "with more firepower than I've ever-" before he gets cut off.
    On Disney+, starting at 01:03:38, Han says:

    “The entire starfleet couldn’t destroy the whole planet—it would take a thousand ships with more firepower than I’ve—”

    At this point he’s interrupted by the proximity alarm.

    Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
    While this is not unreasonable given the ST universe, it'd be nice to see them consider other options. More distributed, independent rule, for instance.
    This is mentioned in ANH, in the conference room on the Death Star at 00:37:34, when Tarkin says, “The regional governors now have direct control over their territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line—fear of this battle station.”

    In essence, each governor is an autocrat with absolute authority over his or her own territory, answering only to the Emperor. That authority is backed up by the Death Star. This gives the governors unlimited latitude to control their regions as they see fit.

    Without going into details, removing layers of bureaucracy and making regional leaders directly accountable to a single dictator is exactly how some real-world empires have operated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    If you take as a reference point the thing that the Empire could do, which is to entirely destroy the surface of a planet to such a degree that no life remains and it is impractical or impossible to return it to a life bearing state*,

    * We don't actually know how much resource had to be devoted to doing so, but in Vision of the Future the planet of Emberlene is revealed to have been destroyed in this matter by freelance mercenaries, so it is not unreasonable to suggest that a relatively small Imperial operation could do so, barring the presence of a planetary shield.
    Emberlene wasn't that devastated - people were living in the ruins, scavenging, and so on. There was even arable land left:

    Specter of the Past:

    She hadn't been home to Emberlene for over twelve years now, not since Mazzic had hired her on as his bodyguard, but the grime and deterioration of this wall had brought all those memories back as if it had been yesterday. Memories of growing up amid the ruins of what had once been great cities. Memories of the death that had struck so often around her - death by disease, by malnutrition, by violence, by hopelessness. Memories of pervasive hunger, of eking out an existence by the vermin she was able to catch and kill, and on her share of the meager foodstuffs that came in from what was left of the countryside's arable land.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-03-03 at 12:02 PM.
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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Letting the locals 'sort their own problems out' was the problem. In fact, this is the point the Hand of Thrawn Duology made explicitly. With so many different alien species and planetary cultures and a massive 25,000 years of messy history to accumulate grudges, everyone hated someone else. The most important of the galactic-scale government, in Star Wars, is to prevent neighboring systems from murdering each other and militant cultures - like, ahem, the Mandalorians - from rampaging across huge portions of the galaxy unimpeded.
    WhenI said let the locals sort their problems out, I didn't mean conflict, I meant budget, infrastructure, policies that don't need to be decided on at the galactic scale. Hell, even environment is a local problem in the GFFA as air pollution on Nal Hutta is hardly a problem for Chandrila. The Republic itself would of course be handling the larger issues such as interstellar conflicts or curbing megacorporations like the Trade Federation. The Republic wouldn't need an army the size of the Empire's to ensure stability when the Jedi could do it for a thousand years with less members than there are settled planets in the Old Republic. The reason the various Republics keep struggling in both continuities is purely because the writers keep needing conflict.

    Besides the politics of the GFFA don't make a lick of sense anyway. With the technology at their disposal the very notion of a war should be laughable as it would be more expensive than it could possibly benefit and everyone should live in would be ludicrous wealth by the standards of modern Western nations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    On Disney+, starting at 01:03:38, Han says:

    “The entire starfleet couldn’t destroy the whole planet—it would take a thousand ships with more firepower than I’ve—”

    At this point he’s interrupted by the proximity alarm.
    Dangit, off by one!
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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Dangit, off by one!
    Don't worry. It's no big deal. Anyway, I'm going to guess that the Book of Boba Fett will have an epic fight against the two Mandalorians. (Mando Vs. Boba).
    It's time to get my Magikarp on!

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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Don't worry. It's no big deal. Anyway, I'm going to guess that the Book of Boba Fett will have an epic fight against the two Mandalorians. (Mando Vs. Boba).
    That seems a little unlikely to me. Neither of them seem really interested in conflict or what the other is up to. Theyre both technically criminals and have little use for the New Republic. they seem to have a similar moral code. Its a little hard to imagine one deliberately picking a fight with the other.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    This is mentioned in ANH, in the conference room on the Death Star at 00:37:34, when Tarkin says, “The regional governors now have direct control over their territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line—fear of this battle station.”

    In essence, each governor is an autocrat with absolute authority over his or her own territory, answering only to the Emperor. That authority is backed up by the Death Star. This gives the governors unlimited latitude to control their regions as they see fit.

    Without going into details, removing layers of bureaucracy and making regional leaders directly accountable to a single dictator is exactly how some real-world empires have operated.
    It's kinda like feudalism, I guess?

    But in terms of how successful it is, dunno. There's enough empire offshoots and hidden superweapons to indicate that this isn't sufficient to keep the peace. Even leaving aside the issue of the Hutts and of course the Rebels.

    For all that the Republic is shown to be fairly incompetent, the Empire also doesn't really have legs on it.

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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    It's kinda like feudalism, I guess?

    But in terms of how successful it is, dunno. There's enough empire offshoots and hidden superweapons to indicate that this isn't sufficient to keep the peace. Even leaving aside the issue of the Hutts and of course the Rebels.

    For all that the Republic is shown to be fairly incompetent, the Empire also doesn't really have legs on it.
    Republic: last for 25,000 (or 1,000) years.
    Empire: lasts for twenty years with successor states lasting for thirty-odd years (Imperial Remnant, First/Final Order) or an additional 90ish years (Fel Empire).

    Imperials: The Republic is weak and cannot ensure stability to the Galaxy!

    Me: okay, bomber.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-03-03 at 12:49 PM.

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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Don't worry. It's no big deal. Anyway, I'm going to guess that the Book of Boba Fett will have an epic fight against the two Mandalorians. (Mando Vs. Boba).
    A.) My not knowing the entire script for Star Wars is a very big deal, thankyouverymuch.

    2.) Djarin and Fett seem pretty finished with each other, and ended on good terms. I don't see any reason for them to fight at this time.

    iii.) Fett's not Mandalorian.
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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    A.) My not knowing the entire script for Star Wars is a very big deal, thankyouverymuch.

    2.) Djarin and Fett seem pretty finished with each other, and ended on good terms. I don't see any reason for them to fight at this time.

    iii.) Fett's not Mandalorian.
    I think Fett has as much claim to the name as Djarin does.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Republic: last for 25,000 (or 1,000) years.
    Empire: lasts for twenty years with successor states lasting for thirty-odd years (Imperial Remnant, First/Final Order) or an additional 90ish years (Fel Empire).

    Imperials: The Republic is weak and cannot ensure stability to the Galaxy!

    Me: okay, bomber.
    The old Republic ensured stability for generations. However, it was no longer up to the task by the time of Episode 1, which is why the Sith were able to subvert it. The Empire survived one generation before being destroyed because they made a mistake of having a single point of failure. The New Republic survived even less time than that before being knocked over by one lousy planet full of rejects in the outer rim.

    If that trajectory continues, in a few decades the entire galaxy will descend into a Warring States type era of feudalism where you have thousands of minipowers led by individual force users or would-be tyrants fighting over the scraps until some new government or system eventually emerges. Which, come to think of it, is what happened to the historical Roman republic as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari
    I'm sorry but "in order to avoid the galaxy falling under the control of a handful of Force users, it should be put under the control of a handful of Force users" is a weird position.
    Since the failure of Rian Johnson's visions, the GFFA will be dominated by Force Users. The question is, can you re-create an order of Force Users who will respect the democratic process and dedicate their lives to uphold those institutions - which requires them renouncing their own goals and desires, much like monks -- or are you going to be run by force users like Darth Maul or Darth Sidious? Villains who consider ordinary people disposable tools at best?

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
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    -Valery Legasov in Chernobyl

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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Since the failure of Rian Johnson's visions, the GFFA will be dominated by Force Users. The question is, can you re-create an order of Force Users who will respect the democratic process and dedicate their lives to uphold those institutions - which requires them renouncing their own goals and desires, much like monks -- or are you going to be run by force users like Darth Maul or Darth Sidious? Villains who consider ordinary people disposable tools at best?
    The child nappers who found an army of convenient clones and said "my, what handy tools?" The ones who went to a slave owning planet and just bought the useful kid instead of fixing anything?

    Are those the villains you speak of?

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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I think Fett has as much claim to the name as Djarin does.
    Djarin proudly counts himself among the Mandalorians. Fett quite notably does not.

    I fail to see why people want him to be one when he himself does not want to be one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    The child nappers
    Name one child they took against the will of the parents or guardians (or the child, in the case of parents or guardians being dead).
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-03-03 at 01:37 PM.
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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Name one child they took against the will of the parents or guardians (or the child, in the case of parents or guardians being dead).
    I actually can't think of any Jedi parents, even acting ones, that survive their childrens training as depicted in the films.

    Many are just not portrayed, but authority figures in general do not seem to have great lifespans in Star Wars.

    It is possible that the child soldiers are recruited mostly voluntarily, I guess. Though how much is voluntary when the alternative is slavery is perhaps a bit sketchy.
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2021-03-03 at 01:42 PM.

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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Name one child they took against the will of the parents or guardians
    I'll name two: Luke and Leia.

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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I actually can't think of any Jedi parents, even acting ones, that survive their childrens training as depicted in the films.

    Many are just not portrayed, but authority figures in general do not seem to have great lifespans in Star Wars.

    It is possible that the child soldiers are recruited mostly voluntarily, I guess. Though how much is voluntary when the alternative is slavery is perhaps a bit sketchy.
    Shmi Skywalker lived a good decade after the Jedi pointedly asked her permission (and Anakin's, as he was old enough to have an opinion) about joining the Jedi, so there's one prominent one you missed. Also, you could have legit answered the question if you'd read Outbound Flight, where one Jedi Master decides to take kids without parent or child having absolute choice in the matter and, spoiler alert, he's not exactly the hero of the story.
    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    I'll name two: Luke and Leia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    (or the child, in the case of parents or guardians being dead).
    Luke openly agreed to go to Alderaan and train with Ben. Leia presumably did so with Luke as well.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-03-03 at 01:51 PM.
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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    I'll name two: Luke and Leia.
    Luke had neither parents nor guardians at the time he was being trained, and Leia was never trained as a Jedi in disney canon. In Legends, she too was an adult at the time of her training.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: The Mandalorian Season 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Luke openly agreed. Leia presumably did so as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Luke had neither parents nor guardians at the time he was being trained, and Leia was never trained as a Jedi in disney canon. In Legends, she too was an adult at the time of her training.
    But they were taken by the Jedi long before training occured.

    When they were taken neither Padme or Anakin/Vader were consulted much less offered consent and the children were (my opinion at least) to young to consent.

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