The Mandalorian Season 2

[Keltest]

Im sorry, are you pointing to Windu's dialogue after Palpatine killed 3 Jedi Knights in front of him with minimal effort and had Windu himself locked in a near stalemate for his life as proof that Windu was going too far in trying to kill Palpatine?

[Peelee]

Im sorry, are you pointing to Windu's dialogue after Palpatine killed 3 Jedi Knights in front of him with minimal effort and had Windu himself locked in a near stalemate for his life as proof that Windu was going too far in trying to kill Palpatine?

Imean I'm with Fyraltari on that one. Windu was an ******* the entire series and that was pretty clear overstepping his bounds plus the clear mirroring Palpatine from the beginning of that movie. Plus, as a pure irrelevant aside, I never liked the whole "i want a fancy lightsaber because I want one" rider made by a mediocre actor* who was almost entirely irrelevant to the plot and only included because he was a big name.

*I am fully aware that is an unpopular opinion.

[Keltest]

Imean I'm with Fyraltari on that one. Windu was an ******* the entire series and that was pretty clear overstepping his bounds plus the clear mirroring Palpatine from the beginning of that movie. Plus I never liked the whole "i want a fancy lightsaber because I want one" rider made by a mediocre actor* who was almost entirely irrelevant to the plot and only included because he was a big name.

*I am fully aware that is an unpopular opinion.

I have no opinion on the quality of Windu's moral character overall, but in that particular instance, with Palpatine actively attempting to murder him (and coming very close to succeeding), i think Windu is absolutely correct. Theyre never going to actually be able to bring Palpatine to trial even if Anakin were to non-lethally subdue him. It would take the entire Jedi Order standing guard over him the while time to keep him from esaping, and there WOULD be casualties during such an attempt, given how casually he cut down three of the jedi sent to capture him in the opening seconds of the fight. Anakin was very clearly arguing from a position of personal desire to extract Palpatine's secrets, not in the interests of justice or proper procedure, and the fact that he gives up on that argument pretty quickly indicates that he knows its weak.

[Peelee]

I have no opinion on the quality of Windu's moral character overall, but in that particular instance, with Palpatine actively attempting to murder him (and coming very close to succeeding), i think Windu is absolutely correct. Theyre never going to actually be able to bring Palpatine to trial even if Anakin were to non-lethally subdue him. It would take the entire Jedi Order standing guard over him the while time to keep him from esaping, and there WOULD be casualties during such an attempt, given how casually he cut down three of the jedi sent to capture him in the opening seconds of the fight. Anakin was very clearly arguing from a position of personal desire to extract Palpatine's secrets, not in the interests of justice or proper procedure, and the fact that he gives up on that argument pretty quickly indicates that he knows its weak.

They initially came in to arrest him knowing that he was a Sith, so I would assume that they had some way to do so. I'm not saying Anakin was acting out of actual ethical obligation here, but Windu certainly wasn't.

Also, obligatory "and the whole thing was incredibly poorly written to start with" complaint that I usually levy against the prequel trilogy.

[Keltest]

They initially came in to arrest him knowing that he was a Sith, so I would assume that they had some way to do so. I'm not saying Anakin was acting out of actual ethical obligation here, but Windu certainly wasn't.

Also, obligatory "and the whole thing was incredibly poorly written to start with" complaint that I usually levy against the prequel trilogy.

I think the cleanest read there is that Windu simply underestimated Palpatine. They went to arrest him, it turned out he the power of The Plot behind him, and Windu reprioritized.


Also, obligatory agreement about the writing quality of the prequels, and RotS in particular.

[Fyraltari]

Im sorry, are you pointing to Windu's dialogue after Palpatine killed 3 Jedi Knights in front of him with minimal effort and had Windu himself locked in a near stalemate for his life as proof that Windu was going too far in trying to kill Palpatine?

No. Like I said, I am perfectly fine with the notion that Windu stepped into the office with the intent of taking Palpatine into custody, just as I am fine with the notion that he knew full well Palps would resist and was planning on killing him as soon as Anakin told him. Both have equal textual support.

I also happen to think that slaying Sidious there and then was certainly the most practical option and may even be the correct one (especially since he was feigning weakness).


What I am saying is that, as Pysren pointed out, Windu was already operating outside of the boundaries of the law when he stepped into that office without any warrant or actual evidence of wrongdoing. Unlawful deposing an acting head of state through coercion has a name: it's a coup d'état. Windu was acting illegally. I am also saying that regardless of our opinions on the matter, the movie depicts Windu as being morally incorrect. Star Wars morality is purely deontologistic, the nature of the acts matter, not the consequences. Windu or Luke striking at a (seemingly) defenseless Sidious is wrong even if it's Sidious the movies tell us. It's against the Jedi way to kill a defenseless opponent (not that it stopped Windu beheading Jango Fett after disarming him, either). This, as underscored by Mace unknowingly quoting Sidious is meant to showcase how the Order has drifted from its ideals. It's also meant to help justify Anakin's fall, but that's another discussion.

The narrative that the Prequels are painstakingly trying to make through their bizarre writing choices and horrenduous dialog is that the Jedi did stray from their path and that is why the Sith were able to best them. That's why Yoda goes into exile rather than try killing Sidious again. I think, again, bizarre writing choices and horrenduous dialog.

a mediocre actor*

*I am fully aware that is an unpopular opinion.

How dare.

Also I wish that Lucas had introduced more colours to the lightsabers since "Good guys in blue; bad guys in red" was toast since RotJ anyway. Just throw the whole damn rainbow at them.

[Keltest]

No. Like I said, I am perfectly fine with the notion that Windu stepped into the office with the intent of taking Palpatine into custody, just as I am fine with the notion that he knew full well Palps would resist and was planning on killing him as soon as Anakin told him. Both have equal textual support.

I also happen to think that slaying Sidious there and then was certainly the most practical option and may even be the correct one (especially since he was feigning weakness).


What I am saying is that, as Pysren pointed out, Windu was already operating outside of the boundaries of the law when he stepped into that office without any warrant or actual evidence of wrongdoing. Unlawful deposing an acting head of state through coercion has a name: it's a coup d'état. Windu was acting illegally. I am also saying that regardless of our opinions on the matter, the movie depicts Windu as being morally incorrect. Star Wars morality is purely deontologistic, the nature of the acts matter, not the consequences. Windu or Luke striking at a (seemingly) defenseless Sidious is wrong even if it's Sidious the movies tell us. It's against the Jedi way to kill a defenseless opponent (not that it stopped Windu beheading Jango Fett after disarming him, either). This, as underscored by Mace unknowingly quoting Sidious is meant to showcase how the Order has drifted from its ideals. It's also meant to help justify Anakin's fall, but that's another discussion.

I dispute this on the basis that we are never shown to what extent the jedi have law enforcement powers or what procedures are based around them. The movies alone indicate that the jedi have a strong ability to act as they see fit, and frankly I can't imagine that a justice system for psychic prophetic space wizard knights would remotely resemble modern standards for law enforcement.

As far as it being a coup, while Windu clearly expects it to devolve into a fight, he does indicate that there will be a trial by the senate, and that the jedi are not intending to unilaterally remove a head of state without at least allowing for the proper procedure to be given a chance first. Its just that Palpatine immediately demonstrates the futility and impracticality of that, well beyond what Windu was expecting.

[Mechalich]

What I am saying is that, as Pysren pointed out, Windu was already operating outside of the boundaries of the law when he stepped into that office without any warrant or actual evidence of wrongdoing. Unlawful deposing an acting head of state through coercion has a name: it's a coup d'état. Windu was acting illegally.

Of course, the fact that Windu was acting illegally doesn't mean he was acting immorally, necessarily. The Jedi, after all, answer to a 'higher' law, namely the Force. The Jedi can chosen to launch a coup and absolutely be morally in the right.

(Side note: in a purely practical analysis, the Jedi ought to have launched their coup earlier, but they kept delaying and delaying in the hopes of gathering evidence to find out exactly who Sidious was. In both continuities, Palpatine escapes discovery only because Grievous attacks Coruscant at precisely the right time)

Windu or Luke striking at a (seemingly) defenseless Sidious is wrong even if it's Sidious the movies tell us. It's against the Jedi way to kill a defenseless opponent

This is true, and it's why there's been so much argument over the years on whether or not Sidious was, in that moment, actually defenseless. I favor the interpretation that he was, that Windu did legitimately defeat him, because it makes Anakin's choice real rather than just a con, but the movie is distinctly unclear on the matter.

The narrative that the Prequels are painstakingly trying to make through their bizarre writing choices and horrenduous dialog is that the Jedi did stray from their path and that is why the Sith were able to best them. That's why Yoda goes into exile rather than try killing Sidious again. I think, again, bizarre writing choices and horrenduous dialog.

Yes, and the Jedi are quite aware that they've made mistakes, especially Yoda (his big arc in season 6 of TCW makes this point quite explicitly). It's highly probable that had the Jedi coup succeeded the Order would have controlled the galaxy for no more than a few months, just long enough to unearth the evidence, purge major institutions of Sidious' pawns (that would have meant like half the Senate at a minimum), and suppress dead end Separatist elements. The entire order might very well have gone into voluntary exile thereafter. It's happened before.

It should be stressed the Windu and Yoda, and probably almost every other member of the Jedi Order, are willing to sacrifice the Order for the sake of the Republic. Heck, that's what they do for three years during the Clone Wars as they take casualties vastly above replacement.

The Prequels are a tragedy. The traditional interpretation would be that they are the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker, a character with several tragic flaws (he's arrogant, impulsive, and possessive, at the very least). However they can also be seen as the tragedy of the Jedi Order as a whole, whose tragic flaw is disconnection.

[Psyren]

The lack of a warrant has practical concerns too, beyond just pointing to issues of due process and a Jedi Councillor's lax approach to law enforcement. If Mace knows what a Sith Lord (excuse me: "A SITH LORD??") even is, then he must know that such a being is powerful, and furthermore is evil enough to have no qualms about murdering Mace and anyone else sent to apprehend him. Telling someone, anyone in the Senate that he's going to attempt such a dangerous task and what to do if he fails would be an intelligent course of action. He jumps into a ship to get there right after Anakin tells him, presumably it has a communication device of some kind since he was able to round up Fisto and the rest of his arrestin' posse before arriving.

Now, Mace might have been worried that straight up telling the Senate would tip Palpatine off somehow. Understandable, it's not like he knows any senators at all that greatly dislike Palpatine and could be trusted to deliver the information to other like-minded senators discreetly. Or even present said information in session when a half-melted Palpatine shows up claiming the Jedi are traitors and that he needs to be made a dictator to stop them, and let the senators come to a decision on their own or hold a vote.

[Keltest]

The lack of a warrant has practical concerns too, beyond just pointing to issues of due process and a Jedi Councillor's lax approach to law enforcement. If Mace knows what a Sith Lord (excuse me: "A SITH LORD??") even is, then he must know that such a being is powerful, and furthermore is evil enough to have no qualms about murdering Mace and anyone else sent to apprehend him. Telling someone, anyone in the Senate that he's going to attempt such a dangerous task and what to do if he fails would be an intelligent course of action. He jumps into a ship to get there right after Anakin tells him, presumably it has a communication device of some kind since he was able to round up Fisto and the rest of his arrestin' posse before arriving.

Now, Mace might have been worried that straight up telling the Senate would tip Palpatine off somehow. Understandable, it's not like he knows any senators at all that greatly dislike Palpatine and could be trusted to deliver the information to other like-minded senators discreetly. Or even present said information in session when a half-melted Palpatine shows up claiming the Jedi are traitors and that he needs to be made a dictator to stop them, and let the senators come to a decision on their own or hold a vote.

Given that he had the senate ready to hand him dictatorial powers on a silver platter, I don't think that a pair of senators speaking in dissent would matter. Palpatine already made very public promises to surrender his emergency powers by the end of the clone wars, and he had apparently been in power well past the end of his term, so it isn't like the senate was acting in the interests of democracy or the Republic at that point anyway.

Certainly padme and bail organa didn't need to know Palpatine was a sith to know his seizing power was a bad thing.

[Mechalich]

The lack of a warrant has practical concerns too, beyond just pointing to issues of due process and a Jedi Councillor's lax approach to law enforcement.

We don't actually know that Mace Windu doesn't have a warrant. He actually does say 'you are under arrest' at the beginning of the confrontation. It's entirely possible that he did get a warrant issued or that, as a member of the Jedi High Council, he has the legal authority to issue his own warrants. The presence or absence of a warrant is a technicality that film is in far too much of a hurry to discuss.

Given that he had the senate ready to hand him dictatorial powers on a silver platter, I don't think that a pair of senators speaking in dissent would matter. Palpatine already made very public promises to surrender his emergency powers by the end of the clone wars, and he had apparently been in power well past the end of his term, so it isn't like the senate was acting in the interests of democracy or the Republic at that point anyway.

There actually was a great deal of dissent. Specifically there was a document called the Petition of 2000 that protested Palpatine's emergency powers and requested he give them up, among other things. It's canon in both continuities, being based on a scene that was cut from RotS. Several scenes involving the opposition faction of the Senate, including an intended appearance by Mon Mothma, were cut from the film.

[Fyraltari]

I dispute this on the basis that we are never shown to what extent the jedi have law enforcement powers or what procedures are based around them. The movies alone indicate that the jedi have a strong ability to act as they see fit, and frankly I can't imagine that a justice system for psychic prophetic space wizard knights would remotely resemble modern standards for law enforcement.

Well, from AotC, we do knwo they can walk into a nightclub, cut somebody's hand off (yes she had a gun ready, but no-one saw that) state "Jedi business go back to your drinks" and leave without any kind of protest. How casual Kenobi and Skywalker are about this is borderline dystopian. So yeah, it's pretty clear that the Jedi have a severe lack of oversight by anyone elected by the people.

As far as it being a coup, while Windu clearly expects it to devolve into a fight, he does indicate that there will be a trial by the senate, and that the jedi are not intending to unilaterally remove a head of state without at least allowing for the proper procedure to be given a chance first. Its just that Palpatine immediately demonstrates the futility and impracticality of that, well beyond what Windu was expecting.

I'd like to know how martial skill demonstrates Sidious's control over the courts. Windu's argument for killing him wasn't that he couldn't be held in custody it's that the trial would be rigged in his favor, so I'm really not convinced he was willing to go through the proper channels before. I'd also be interested to see what the trial would be like:
Anakin: He told me he was a Sith Lord.
Palpatine: No, I didn't.
Obi-Wan: Count Dooku told me a Sith controlled the Senate.
Hypothetical Magistrate: And when the dead ennemy of state told you that, did he mention a name?
Obi-Wan: No.
Hypothetical Magistrate: What other evidence do you have? Can you sense the Dark Side in him?
Windu: No.
Did Windu really think he had a case?


The ridiculousness aside, either this was a putsch or the Jedi Order (who isn't elected by anyone or chosen by anyone elected) can arrest whoever they want without any evidence, in which case I'd like to know how they aren't de facto running the Republic.

[Psyren]

Given that he had the senate ready to hand him dictatorial powers on a silver platter, I don't think that a pair of senators speaking in dissent would matter.

Oh certainly not. But a dissenting voice to "yo the Jedi turned evil, the only option now is to throw democracy out the window, just trust me on this" couldn't have hurt either.

We don't actually know that Mace Windu doesn't have a warrant. He actually does say 'you are under arrest' at the beginning of the confrontation. It's entirely possible that he did get a warrant issued or that, as a member of the Jedi High Council, he has the legal authority to issue his own warrants. The presence or absence of a warrant is a technicality that film is in far too much of a hurry to discuss.

If he does, then whatever process he followed to get one issued has holes big enough to drive a Bantha through. Why would the Senate let a known person of interest if not outright criminal simply take the floor and address them, never mind believe everything he's saying?

So either I believe Mace was dumb and didn't get one, or I believe the entire Galactic Senate was dumb and let someone with a warrant out for their arrest continue to serve in his office. Let me know which you prefer.

[Keltest]

Well, from AotC, we do knwo they can walk into a nightclub, cut somebody's hand off (yes she had a gun ready, but no-one saw that) state "Jedi business go back to your drinks" and leave without any kind of protest. How casual Kenobi and Skywalker are about this is borderline dystopian. So yeah, it's pretty clear that the Jedi have a severe lack of oversight by anyone elected by the people.


I'd like to know how martial skill demonstrates Sidious's control over the courts. Windu's argument for killing him wasn't that he couldn't be held in custody it's that the trial would be rigged in his favor, so I'm really not convinced he was willing to go through the proper channels before. I'd also be interested to see what the trial would be like:
Anakin: He told me he was a Sith Lord.
Palpatine: No, I didn't.
Obi-Wan: Count Dooku told me a Sith controlled the Senate.
Hypothetical Magistrate: And when the dead ennemy of state told you that, did he mention a name?
Obi-Wan: No.
Hypothetical Magistrate: What other evidence do you have? Can you sense the Dark Side in him?
Windu: No.
Did Windu really think he had a case?


The ridiculousness aside, either this was a putsch or the Jedi Order (who isn't elected by anyone or chosen by anyone elected) can arrest whoever they want without any evidence, in which case I'd like to know how they aren't de facto running the Republic.

Sorry, I was unclear. The impracticality comes from Palpatine's ability to kill and maim the people attempting to compel him to stand trial. While Windu does apparently conclude that the courts are suspect, far more pressing is the stalemate that Palpatine has forced Windu into.

Certainly had Windu won that fight, or Anakin not sided against him, the fact that Palpatine pulled out a lightsaber, killed 3 jedi and shot lightning at Mace Windu is pretty compelling evidence.

[Devonix]

Sorry, I was unclear. The impracticality comes from Palpatine's ability to kill and maim the people attempting to compel him to stand trial. While Windu does apparently conclude that the courts are suspect, far more pressing is the stalemate that Palpatine has forced Windu into.

Certainly had Windu won that fight, or Anakin not sided against him, the fact that Palpatine pulled out a lightsaber, killed 3 jedi and shot lightning at Mace Windu is pretty compelling evidence.

I have to respond with this tho. Palpatine didn't technically commit a crime there. Being a Sith Lord isn't illegal is it?

[Keltest]

I have to respond with this tho. Palpatine didn't technically commit a crime there. Being a Sith Lord isn't illegal is it?

Well, he killed 3 jedi resisting arrest, so he was certainly a criminal by the end of the fight.

But even without that, the Jedi have a pretty strong indication that the Sith Lord was behind the separatist movement and the Clone Wars, so there's a pretty decent case they could make for treason and conspiracy. Plus all the deaths from the Clone Wars could be pinned on his head. And given their history, being a Sith Lord may well actually be criminal in and of itself.

[Fyraltari]

Sorry, I was unclear. The impracticality comes from Palpatine's ability to kill and maim the people attempting to compel him to stand trial. While Windu does apparently conclude that the courts are suspect, far more pressing is the stalemate that Palpatine has forced Windu into.

That's not the reason Windu used to justify his action. If that were what was on Windu's mind then why did he say something else?

Certainly had Windu won that fight, or Anakin not sided against him, the fact that Palpatine pulled out a lightsaber, killed 3 jedi and shot lightning at Mace Windu is pretty compelling evidence.

No the trial only happens when there's no fight. When there's a fight either Windu wins and Sidious dies or the movie happens as shown. So there's no dead Jedi and no lightning to prevent.

Note by the way that the dead Jedi would only be evidence of Palpatine knowing how to use a lightsaber and it looks like Windu shot lightning at him (I doubt there are cameras in Sidious's office, else he wouldn't read the Death Star's plans in it). Not like knowing how to fight or how to throw lightning around is a crime anyway. I guess you could charge him with resisting arrest, but that's assuming the arrest was lawful and I doubt that'd throw him in jail for long.

EDIT:

Well, he killed 3 jedi resisting arrest, so he was certainly a criminal by the end of the fight.

But even without that, the Jedi have a pretty strong indication that the Sith Lord was behind the separatist movement and the Clone Wars

Dooku's word?

And given their history, being a Sith Lord may well actually be criminal in and of itself.

While that's likely true, they don't have any evidence of that.

[Keltest]

That's not the reason Windu used to justify his action. If that were what was on Windu's mind then why did he say something else?


No the trial only happens when there's no fight. When there's a fight either Windu wins and Sidious dies or the movie happens as shown. So there's no dead Jedi and no lightning to prevent.

Note by the way that the dead Jedi would only be evidence of Palpatine knowing how to use a lightsaber and it looks like Windu shot lightning at him (I doubt there are cameras in Sidious's office, else he wouldn't read the Death Star's plans in it). Not like knowing how to fight or how to throw lightning around is a crime anyway. I guess you could charge him with resisting arrest, but that's assuming the arrest was lawful and I doubt that'd throw him in jail for long.

EDIT:

Dooku's word?


While that's likely true, they don't have any evidence of that.

Obi-wan indicates this is a genuine belief of the council after the events of the first two movies plus the off screen Clone Wars. Its not at all unreasonable to assume they had more to go on than just Dooku's word.

As for Windu, I think you're reading too much into the words of a man actively fighting for his life trying to persuade Anakin to please stop the crazy space wizard from shooting lightning at me.

[Fyraltari]

Obi-wan indicates this is a genuine belief of the council after the events of the first two movies plus the off screen Clone Wars. Its not at all unreasonable to assume they had more to go on than just Dooku's word.

As for Windu, I think you're reading too much into the words of a man actively fighting for his life trying to persuade Anakin to please stop the crazy space wizard from shooting lightning at me.

Sorry, but text trumps headcannon.

[Keltest]

Sorry, but text trumps headcannon.

Where in the text does it say all they had was dooku's word?

[Mechalich]

If he does, then whatever process he followed to get one issued has holes big enough to drive a Bantha through. Why would the Senate let a known person of interest if not outright criminal simply take the floor and address them, never mind believe everything he's saying?

So either I believe Mace was dumb and didn't get one, or I believe the entire Galactic Senate was dumb and let someone with a warrant out for their arrest continue to serve in his office. Let me know which you prefer.

You're talking about the Senate the gave the guy who declared himself 'dictator for life' a standing ovation while he was doing it. Palpatine had a supermajority of supporters in the Senate who, for various reasons ranging from blackmail to bribery to straight-up extortion to actual ideological support were willing to back him if he'd gotten up and declared 'Coruscant is made of cottage cheese.'

Oh certainly not. But a dissenting voice to "yo the Jedi turned evil, the only option now is to throw democracy out the window, just trust me on this" couldn't have hurt either.

This existed. The groundwork of the Rebel Alliance was laid during RotS, it just got cut from the movie in a dumb decision by Lucas (he could easily have cut the Mustafar fight scene down by a few minutes to make up time).

In fact, if Order 66 had not happened, the surviving Jedi Order would absolutely have broken loose, taken a big chunk (we don't know what percentage of the Senate 2000 senators is, or how many were against Palpatine but too scared to sign their names saying so) of the Republic with it, declared a government-in-exile (probably on Alderaan or Alsakan) and joined with the surviving Separatists against Palpatine. And, eventually, they would have triumphed.

Well, from AotC, we do knwo they can walk into a nightclub, cut somebody's hand off (yes she had a gun ready, but no-one saw that) state "Jedi business go back to your drinks" and leave without any kind of protest. How casual Kenobi and Skywalker are about this is borderline dystopian. So yeah, it's pretty clear that the Jedi have a severe lack of oversight by anyone elected by the people.

The PT Era Republic is, in and of itself, fairly dystopian. Evidence is very strong that only a small minority of the Senate is elected by anything resembling a popular vote of their representative sector. Many leaders, even the nominal 'good guys' are hereditary aristocrats - Duchess Satine Kryze who represents the Mandalore Sector is one such individual - back-referencing The Mandalorian again, this is a secondary reason why being the acknowledged ruler of Mandalore is important. Even if the planet is a wasteland, it has a traditional claim on a Senate seat because its the traditional sector capital. Even describing the Republic as 'democracy' is a stretch, it's closer to an oligarchy of noble houses (mostly human, mostly in the Core Worlds), with the trappings of democracy.

This is fairly horrifying from the perspective of Earth in 2021, but from the perspective of Earth in 1875, it would be fairly normal.

As a side note, Coruscant, in particular, is explicitly non-democratic. It's controlled by the Senate and administered by an un-elected Municipal Authority.

Jedi Knights have, by the standards of any modern Western democracy, extraordinary powers. That's absolutely true. There are absolutely states on Earth where paramilitary agents of the state have similar powers, but yeah...

This is a known issue. In Legends, when they got to the post-NJO portion of the timeline and Luke's New Jedi Order had expanded to sufficient size that the Order part was no longer a cute joke, it cropped up almost immediately. The initial plot of the Fate of the Jedi book series, before it careened into a truly pathetic abyss, actually concerned the innate tension between the Jedi and the Republic and exactly how far Jedi powers ought to go. There's an extended discussion in the first book, Outcast addressing this in which Luke even admits that, if you treat the Jedi from an entirely secular perspective, the Order's operations are extremely questionable (regrettably he had this discussion with Daala of all people).

It's one of the fundamental conundrums of Star Wars. An organization like the Jedi Order simply is not compatible with any sort of modern, responsible, secular democracy. The question of what the Jedi Order should be, instead, remains unanswered. My vote is that the Jedi should be more like the Service Corps, with only a small paramilitary special forces group dedicated to dark sider suppression, but I've written 100,000 words about a Jedi Doctor, so I'm extremely biased.

[Peelee]

I'd like to know how martial skill demonstrates Sidious's control over the courts. Windu's argument for killing him wasn't that he couldn't be held in custody it's that the trial would be rigged in his favor, so I'm really not convinced he was willing to go through the proper channels before. I'd also be interested to see what the trial would be like:
Anakin: He told me he was a Sith Lord.
Palpatine: No, I didn't.
Obi-Wan: Count Dooku told me a Sith controlled the Senate.
Hypothetical Magistrate: And when the dead ennemy of state told you that, did he mention a name?
Obi-Wan: No.
Hypothetical Magistrate: What other evidence do you have? Can you sense the Dark Side in him?
Windu: No.
Did Windu really think he had a case?

Imean, given the several Jedi killed by Palpatine saved by the camera just recording stuff in Palpatine's office apparently, Windy kind of had an open and shut case.

[Psyren]

You're talking about the Senate the gave the guy who declared himself 'dictator for life' a standing ovation while he was doing it. Palpatine had a supermajority of supporters in the Senate who, for various reasons ranging from blackmail to bribery to straight-up extortion to actual ideological support were willing to back him if he'd gotten up and declared 'Coruscant is made of cottage cheese.'


This existed. The groundwork of the Rebel Alliance was laid during RotS, it just got cut from the movie in a dumb decision by Lucas (he could easily have cut the Mustafar fight scene down by a few minutes to make up time).

In fact, if Order 66 had not happened, the surviving Jedi Order would absolutely have broken loose, taken a big chunk (we don't know what percentage of the Senate 2000 senators is, or how many were against Palpatine but too scared to sign their names saying so) of the Republic with it, declared a government-in-exile (probably on Alderaan or Alsakan) and joined with the surviving Separatists against Palpatine. And, eventually, they would have triumphed.

If he truly had that much support in a senate containing thousands of representatives, it means they already believed in him more than the Jedi Order, even when he declared the Jedi to be corrupt and useless. Just how badly did they screw the pooch in those centuries of peace? Was OT Obi-Wan senile?

[Mechalich]

If he truly had that much support in a senate containing thousands of representatives, it means they already believed in him more than the Jedi Order, even when he declared the Jedi to be corrupt and useless. Just how badly did they screw the pooch in those centuries of peace? Was OT Obi-Wan senile?

Evidence suggests that the Jedi Order believed that their proper role was to be agents/servants of the state, not participants in its debate. They deliberately removed themselves from ongoing debate, basically conceding the realm of public opinion entirely rather than attempting to coalition with their numerous allies. Legends goes further: in that timeline the Jedi Order held an immense amount of power during the New Sith Wars period, including holding the Chancellorship for centuries, and part of the conclusion of that conflict (the Ruusan Reformations) involved the systematic legislative elimination of the Order's power, such as forbidding them from hereditary landholding or public office (which means that for as frightfully authoritative as the Jedi are in the PT, they used to be a lot worse).

Additionally, the very nature of the Clone Wars means that they very substantial fraction of the galaxy most inclined to oppose power grabs by the central government such (ie. declaring a new galactic empire), had already seceded and/or been subsumed by the Hutts (who didn't care either way). Palpatine got made dictator of the galaxy by winning majority vote of a Senate that represented maybe 65% of the galactic population (and because the Core and Colonies are human dominated, it was very much a human majority, which influenced a lot of later imperial policy).

To summarize what happened overall: The Republic failed. The Jedi failed to save it.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Mechalich
In fact, if Order 66 had not happened, the surviving Jedi Order would absolutely have broken loose, taken a big chunk…of the Republic with it, declared a government-in-exile (probably on Alderaan or Alsakan) and joined with the surviving Separatists against Palpatine.

Do you have any kind of textual support for this?

The Jedi fought hard against the Separatists for years, and many of the Separatist leaders committed war crimes and atrocities beyond count. The Jedi wouldn’t suddenly forget everything the Separatists did, much less create a coalition government with them.

[Peelee]

To summarize what happened overall: The Republic failed. The Jedi failed to save it.

A single man with a thousand years worth of planning, resource building, network building, connections, money, and literally magic powers engineered a war against the Republic. The Republic had no standing army, so the same man engineered an instant army for the Republic. If the Republic refused to take the army, they would have been immediately steamrolled by the Separatists and would have fallen. If the Republic agreed to take the army, they would have been eventually steamrolled by the magic man due to the secret control he implemented across the entire army. This was a no-win situtation for the Republic and the Jedi. The Kobayashi Maru.

[Keltest]

Do you have any kind of textual support for this?

The Jedi fought hard against the Separatists for years, and many of the Separatist leaders committed war crimes and atrocities beyond count. The Jedi wouldn’t suddenly forget everything the Separatists did, much less create a coalition government with them.

I dont know if this is in newcanon, but in Legends many of the formerly separatist systems promptly signed on to the Rebel Alliance. Most of the actual separatists themselves werent evil, just the leadership immediately under Dooku.

[Mechalich]

Do you have any kind of textual support for this?

The Jedi fought hard against the Separatists for years, and many of the Separatist leaders committed war crimes and atrocities beyond count. The Jedi wouldn’t suddenly forget everything the Separatists did, much less create a coalition government with them.

The Republic attempted to make peace with the Separatists in TCW Season 3, Episode 10 'Heroes on Both Sides.' The Separatist Parliament agrees to the proposal and Padme brings it to the floor of the Senate, but a secret covert attack kills power on Coruscant as she is proposing that the Senate vote. The incensed Senate then votes down the proposal.

Additionally, the surviving Separatists on Mustafar are literally begging for peace prior to Anakin slaughtering them all. The CIS knew it was losing the war long before RotS. They arguably lose the war in its first few months, when they fail to persuade the Hutts to side with them, and by the end of 21 BBY, when they lose control of Ryloth, they have ceased to make any strategic gains. Even Grievous' attack on Coruscant is a desperate attempt to gain leverage - if they can capture Palpatine he can be used to influence negotiations in a potential peace agreement. Yes, Dooku knows this is a lie, and Grievous simply doesn't care, but the rest of the Separatists know they've lost.

And the Jedi were prepared to forgive a lot. They forgave Asajj Ventress, who's probably number 3 in the war crimes department out of all the Separatists (and by the end of RotS #1 and #2 are dead).

[Peelee]

Given that Anakin and Kenobi themselves committed war crimes, it's hardly surprising they were willing to forgive a lot.

Which is to say, I doubt the writers really intended for anyone to commit war crimes and instead said "what if we have this person do this for an episode" and gave zero thought to the consequences.

[dancrilis]

I have to respond with this tho. Palpatine didn't technically commit a crime there. Being a Sith Lord isn't illegal is it?

Not based on what Palpatine recorded of the conversation to present to the senate later on at least.

Spoiler: ROTS Novelisation

Show

[ the following is a transcript of an audio recording presented before the Galactic Senate on the afternoon of the first Empire Day; identities of all speakers verified and confirmed by voiceprint analysis]

PALPATINE: Why, Master Windu. What a pleasant surprise.
MACE WINDU: Hardly a surprise, Chancellor. And it will be pleasant for neither of us.
PALPATINE: I'm sorry? Master Fisto, hello. Master Kolar, greetings. I trust you are well. Master Tiin-I see your horn has regrown; I'm very glad. What brings four Jedi Masters to my office at this hour?
MACE WINDU: We know who you are. What you are. We are here to take you into custody.
PALPATINE: I beg your pardon? What I am? When last I checked, I was Supreme Chancellor of the Republic you are sworn to serve. I hope I misunderstand what you mean by custody, Master Windu. It smacks of treason.
MACE WINDU: You're under arrest.
PALPATINE: Really, Master Windu, you cannot be serious. On what charge?
MACE WINDU: You're a Sith Lord!
PALPATINE: Am I? Even if true, that's hardly a crime. My philosophical outlook is a personal matter. In fact-the last time I read the Constitution, anyway-we have very strict laws against this type of persecution. So I ask you again: what is my alleged crime? How do you expect to justify your mutiny before the Senate? Or do you intend to arrest the Senate as well?
MACE WINDU: We're not here to argue with you.
PALPATINE: No, you're here to imprison me without trial. Without even the pretense of legality. So this is the plan, at last: the Jedi are taking over the Republic.
MACE WINDU: Come with us. Now.
PALPATINE: I shall do no such thing. If you intend to murder me, you can do so right here.
MACE WINDU: Don't try to resist.
[sounds that have been identified by frequency resonances to be the ignition of several lightsabers]
PALPATINE: Resist? How could I possibly resist? This is murder, you Jedi traitors! How can I be any threat to you? Master Tiin-you're the telepath. What am I thinking right now?
[sounds of scuffle]
KIT FISTO: Saesee-AGEN KOLAR: [garbled; possibly "It doesn't hurt"(?)]
[sounds of scuffle]
PALPATINE: Help! Help! Security-someone! Help me!
Murder! Treason!
[ recording ends]

Do you have any kind of textual support for this?

Kindof, in the novel after Mace Windu dies Anakin doesn't immediately bow to Palpatine - and even after he does he kindof needs to be convinced to eliminate the Jedi, the arguements presented as follows.

Spoiler: ROTS Novelisation

Show

"And do you think that task is finished, my boy?" Sidious seated himself on the corner of the desk, hands folded in his lap, the way he always had when offering Anakin fatherly advice; the misshapen mask of his face made the familiarity of his posture into something horrible. "Do you think that killing one traitor will end treason? Do you think the Jedi will ever stop until I am dead?"

<snip>

"The Jedi are relentless. If they are not destroyed to the last being, there will be civil war without end. To sterilize the Jedi Temple will be your first task. Do what must be done, Lord Vader."

The first of that is from before he became Vader and the second if from after he joined the Sith, now Palpatine could have been lying but it isn't really presented that way.