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Thread: The Mandalorian Season 2
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2021-03-15, 08:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
Originally Posted by Peelee
Given that Anakin and Kenobi themselves committed war crimes….
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2021-03-15, 09:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2021-03-15, 09:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2021-03-15, 09:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
That happens almost every time. seriously. In the pilot movie, Obi-Wan fakes negotiation long enough for an attack, In the Ryloth episodes in season 1 Anakin "surrenders" his ship. Which is empty and he's trhowing it at the ennemy. that's just at the top of my head. Look, here's a (slightly exagerated) list from season 1.
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2021-03-15, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
Last edited by Keltest; 2021-03-15 at 09:33 AM.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2021-03-15, 09:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
I'm confident this series of video is meant to be comedic and the maker systematically takes the worst possible interpretation of events. But still. That's a lot of war crimes on both sides.
Also that's not the gunner of the tank, that's the commander of this unit (you can tell by the yellow markings) I think the gunner was one of the fleeing ones just before.Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2021-03-15, 09:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
They actually specifically go over this in one of the later episodes. That hatch is the gunner seat. The commander is presumably up there more so for the visibility than out of a desire to actually use the turret himself, but he is the one controlling that particular turret. When theyre training the Onderon rebels in Season... 5 i think? they call out that you need to disable both hatches in order to fully shut down the tank. Disabling the main body wont disable the turret unless the whole thing explodes.
Last edited by Keltest; 2021-03-15 at 09:42 AM.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2021-03-15, 10:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
The specific instance I'm thinking of, they're on a bridge, Anakin is very explicitly surrendering to the B1s, and the false surrender is very explicitly a plan to attack the droids. Can't remember the season, though. I do remember it is an inarguable example. I'll see if I can't find it.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2021-03-15, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-03-15, 11:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
I agree they fake surrender a lot. But they consider droids property, is tricking bad ai into strategic error a war crime?
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2021-03-15, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
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2021-03-15, 11:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
It's absolutely arguable. What defines war crimes in the galaxy far, far away? It would seem that since both sides are guilty of such crimes, it is likely that in universe they are not actually considered crimes, so the whole thing is moot.
Are you thinking of the episode in season 7 where he surrenders to draw out the tactical droid, and has the clones underneath the bridge? Where the tactical droid tells his droids to open fire on Anakin because he thinks its a trick? If so, the droids accepting the surrender stopped accepting it and opened fire before Anakin broke the terms. So it can be arguable even if we take them as having the same definition of war crimes, if we are thinking of the same one.Campaigning in my home brewed world for the since spring of 2020 - started a campaign journal to keep track of what is going on a few levels in. It starts here: https://www.worldanvil.com/w/the-ter...report-article
Created an interactive character sheet for sidekicks on Google Sheets - automatic calculations, drop down menus for sidekick type, hopefully everything necessary to run a sidekick: https://tinyurl.com/y6rnyuyc
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2021-03-15, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
Given that we know practically nothing about the intergalactic legal system, I felt it was fairly clear that we were generally referring to what are known war crimes under our current international agreements. If you would like to introduce any evidence that says what war crimes are or are not in the Star Wars universe, please, feel free to introduce it. I, for one, do not find "people did this so it's probably not a war crime for them" as terribly compelling evidence, given the average caliber of the writing throughout the prequel Era. But if we're only discussing what qualifies as a war crime in the Star Wars universe, it's gonna be a real quick discussion.
Further, inchoate crimes exist, and we know that Anakin et al were explicitly planning to do what they did. It being a conspiracy does not make it any better - nor does the fact that the enemy combatants figured out the truth of it. Just becuase its badly written does not excuse from the fact that both sides are, to be a little less formal here, absolute crap.Last edited by Peelee; 2021-03-15 at 02:39 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2021-03-15, 03:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
You are suggesting something is a war crime when there are no known war crimes in the jurisdiction. That makes it on you to come up with the evidence, because I can't prove a negative (that war crimes aren't a defined thing in the GFFA).
If we have no evidence either way, then I'm going with the one that doesn't mean everyone in the galaxy is constantly committing war crimes, because that is silly on its face.Campaigning in my home brewed world for the since spring of 2020 - started a campaign journal to keep track of what is going on a few levels in. It starts here: https://www.worldanvil.com/w/the-ter...report-article
Created an interactive character sheet for sidekicks on Google Sheets - automatic calculations, drop down menus for sidekick type, hopefully everything necessary to run a sidekick: https://tinyurl.com/y6rnyuyc
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2021-03-15, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
Yes, given that we know practically nothing about the intergalactic legal system, I felt it was fairly clear that we were generally referring to what are known war crimes under our current international agreements. But if we're only discussing what qualifies as a war crime in the Star Wars universe, it's gonna be a real quick discussion.
Last edited by Peelee; 2021-03-15 at 03:55 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2021-03-15, 03:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
Forum Wisdom
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2021-03-15, 04:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
The Clone Wars is intended to be a dehumanizing conflict. It's the unbelievably awful and pointless war that comes before the even bigger but somehow heroically redeeming one (the historical parallels are pretty straight forward, honestly). Nobody has any moral high ground and just fighting in the conflict at all is corrupting.
TCW, honestly, does a decent job of showing this within the boundaries of its teen rating.
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2021-03-15, 07:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
The TCW war crimes I'm just going to call bad writing (or a least 'shortcut') they need a 'trick' for the goodies to use that kids can understand. Obviously there's no Geneva convention in the GFFA, but the technicalities are less important than the reason why it's a war crime: it disincentivises belligerents from accepting surrenders.Later in the war, if Rep forces are actually negotiating or surrendering, they can say 'it could be another trick, let's just kill em all.'
Originally Posted by Psyren
Arrest warrants are worthless against rule by decree dictators. If Palpatine succeeds in getting rid of the Jedi arresting party, all that does is ensure that the judge that signed that warrant signed their own death warrant by accident.
Alerting Senators makes no difference either. Padme put Palpatine in office in the first place, there's no obvious reason to believe Mace knows she would be willing to resist him. As for Bail, do they even know each other? They could find somebody, but it's just as likely that person will be a Palpatine sympathiser.
Mace was already heading to a meeting with Palpatine, he didn't decide to go there on foot of Anakin's evidence. He didn't gather a posse, they were already going there anyway. Communicating with anyone runs the risk of the communication being intercepted somehow. He goes to the meeting that is already scheduled as an excuse to get close enough to arrest him.
Once there, Windu couldn't be more justified. He gave Palps a clear chance to come quietly, and then Palps killed most of the arresting party. It was a crystal clear case of resisting arrest, and Palpatine's apparent surrender was fake, he wasn't actually disarmed or surrendering, that was a ruse. Not being supposed to kill surrendering opponents doesn't mean you are obligated to fall for a trick. So it comes down to whether you believe Windu bought the trick or not.
In terms of evidence, there is the allegation of being a Sith Lord, plus the fact that Count Dooku is also a Sith Lord, plus 'always two there are, a master and an apprentice.' Not proof, but maybe probable cause.
He may not be able to charge him with 'being a Sith', but he might be able to charge him with secretly corresponding with the leader of the CIS in wartime, ie. treason.
I would hesitate to say 'this is how the scene was intended' unless we have word of Lucas. It's all too easy for people to confuse their interpretations with the creators.
If he truly had that much support in a senate containing thousands of representatives, it means they already believed in him more than the Jedi Order, even when he declared the Jedi to be corrupt and useless. Just how badly did they screw the pooch in those centuries of peace? Was OT Obi-Wan senile?
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2021-03-15, 09:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
The Jedi Order's finances are incredibly murky. There's a reference in the Legends novel Rogue Planet to the Jedi receiving donations, but that seems a rather dubious source for the level of operations the Order conducts. In Legends, we do know that prior to the Ruusan Reformations there were Jedi Lords, Jedi who'd acquired aristocratic status and presumable land-based wealth as well. The Jedi Lords were dismantled following the Ruusan Reformations. It's possible that the holdings of many of the lords were cashed out and converted into an investment portfolio that supported the Jedi Order.
The Order's single most valuable asset - the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, sat on land donated to the Order by the Senate, which is canon. There's no evidence to confirm this, but it seems almost certain that the Order was exempt from taxes. None of the individual Jedi have any income or appear to actually own anything beyond robes and lightsabers, but the Order has lots of droids, starfighters, and other equipment.
There's actually more information regarding the Legends New Jedi Order, which was financed directly by the government and was subject to having it's assets seized and support withdrawn (which happened). However the small size of that organization, with only a few hundred members at most, made it possible for it to survive on support from a small group of well-financed individuals (ex. Lando).
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2021-03-15, 09:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2021-03-15, 09:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2021-03-15, 09:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
Regarding the "how should the Jedi deal with Palpatine once they know he's a Sith Lord" discussion, there is also the issue that it's not clear that there was actually any time for due process to take its course - Palpatine revealing himself to Anakin is a pretty strong signal that something was about to go down regardless of which way Anakin and the Jedi jump, especially given that the movie pretty much explicitly states that the Clone Wars will be all but over once Grievous is defeated on Utapau. This has the appearance of being Palpatine's last, best chance to seize power and destroy the Jedi Order before it becomes expected for him to give up his emergency powers and the Chancellorship, because the crisis still appears to be at its height - the invasion of Kashyyyk is still ongoing, the assault on Coruscant and the kidnapping of the Chancellor is still very recent history, and Grievous' immanent defeat is not yet widely known - and yet the movie very strongly implies that the war is all but over and so the Chancellor should soon be expected to give up his emergency powers and probably also step down. Furthermore, however strong Palpatine may think his control over the Senate is or how much popular support he may believe he has, he probably still doesn't want to see if the Jedi can make a charge that he masterminded the Clone Wars stick in anything like an open or fair court, especially not once the present crisis has receded to the point that it would be reasonable to expect him to have given up his emergency powers and probably the Chancellorship, so something was probably going to happen at that meeting even if the Jedi had decided to continue with their wait-and-see approach to dealing with Palpatine, or at least had held off on arresting him long enough to put together a case for an arrest warrant that's better than "Anakin says that Palpatine admitted to being the Sith Lord who masterminded the Clone Wars" and set it before a judge; being the one in control of the narrative is a big advantage in the court of public opinion, especially if you can suppress alternative narratives before they have a chance to be heard.
Beyond all that, though, Palpatine probably had all the material he needed to make the case that the Jedi attempted a coup as soon as Anakin drew his lightsaber towards the end of their meeting, given that he could doctor any recording of the meeting and suppress alternative narratives by turning Anakin to his side, killing him during the purge, or forcing him into hiding to survive the purge; the disfiguring fight with the Jedi Masters later that evening simply makes for a more compelling (and incriminating) narrative than a story about a Jedi assassin who had a change of heart at the moment he was supposed to strike and instead revealed the plot to poor old victimized Palpatine without leaving any physical scars behind. The trap was laid, the coup was prepared, and the purge was coming whether the Jedi acted that evening, maintained their wait-and-see attitude, or attempted to plot a course to Palpatine's legal removal from power through the courts; all that remained to be resolved were whether the Jedi could overcome Palpatine in a direct confrontation and what role, if any, Anakin would play in the story a victorious Palpatine would present to the Senate and the public to justify the Jedi purge.Last edited by Aeson; 2021-03-15 at 10:01 PM.
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2021-03-15, 09:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-03-15, 10:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-03-15, 10:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-03-15, 10:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2021-03-15, 11:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
You're allowed to write off the first 3200 credits you spend on your primary lightsaber each year. Critics contend the tax deduction encourages jedi to invest too heavily into their primary weapon instead of building a second one and learning how to dual wield like a proper clone wars cartoon character.
Last edited by Kornaki; 2021-03-15 at 11:04 PM.
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2021-03-15, 11:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
Liability insurance retained to protect against lawsuits prompted by limb amputations is a write off.
Travel by bantha and giant gecko can allow for deductions per mile and per vat of food pellets, but receipts have to be retained and stamped by no less that two (2) Jedi Masters before being filed along form 130(c), section (non-horse/non-horse-proximate organic conveyances).
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2021-03-16, 03:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
Line items such as 'Jedi business (nothing to see here)', and the occassional use of the statement 'you don't need to see my receipts' - might hamper any investigation into the funding of things like Clone armies, but yes a well done prequel to the prequels might be an idea.
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2021-03-16, 04:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
The Legends novels Darth Plagueis and Cloak of Deception actually do a great deal to explain how the Prequels happen. The first 45 or so issues of Star Wars: Republic, the comic series, also cover a great deal of events in the lead up to the Prequels.
Additionally, the novel Darth Bane: Path of Destruction, while set 1000 years before the Prequels and also not particularly good, explains Bane's philosophy and process behind the Rule of Two.