The Mandalorian Season 2

[Mechalich]

On topic... ish... I thought the Stormtroopers in Mando are SUPPOSED to be jokes? Like, when Gills McGee is shooting down "crackshot accurate" troopers, I'm not able to take them seriously. Let alone that several TIEs fail to cripple the vessel at very least, LET ALONE that in first initiating the pursuit some troopers DIE. Its like... I can buy Mando shrugging off crap. I can't pay for everyone that's in his current near vicinity ALSO becoming Plot Armor enhanced.

A lot of this is inherent to the medium of action-oriented TV. You're going to have some kind of fight scene in pretty much every episode, sometimes two. Those fight scenes have to have at least some dramatic tension, the good guys can't just curbstomp the enemy minions all the time. This means a lot of close escapes, lousy enemy marksmanship, shots that manage to always hit armor, and so forth. The alternative is sacrificing Red Shirts every episode, which isn't any better.

TCW and Rebels, just among Star Wars properties, have the same issue in spades, it's just less obvious in animation and also the ability of lightsabers of to block blaster bolts is an absolutely incredible visual device for this kind of thing.

[HolyDraconus]

You mean TFA?

I agree with everything else you said, and I agree with everything John Boyega says. That dude deserved so much better, both as a character and as a person. He seems super cool.

I meant KOTOR but yea, TFA was passable. Honestly if it wasn't for the fact that real life happened and the second movie became a legacy, I would rather the last two was just straight up redone. As is, with the rumor of split time lines (and while there's no proof I just wish it was true) I think that's the best I can hope for in terms of salvaging things.

A lot of this is inherent to the medium of action-oriented TV. You're going to have some kind of fight scene in pretty much every episode, sometimes two. Those fight scenes have to have at least some dramatic tension, the good guys can't just curbstomp the enemy minions all the time. This means a lot of close escapes, lousy enemy marksmanship, shots that manage to always hit armor, and so forth. The alternative is sacrificing Red Shirts every episode, which isn't any better.

TCW and Rebels, just among Star Wars properties, have the same issue in spades, it's just less obvious in animation and also the ability of lightsabers of to block blaster bolts is an absolutely incredible visual device for this kind of thing.

There was once a time that the term "its just a flesh wound" was passable in action flicks. Or "winging" people, or glancing blows. Some dirt, some cuts, some scrapes, some bruises but at the end of the day the good guys won until the next episode. THIS... isn't that. Again, Mando curbstomping.. I buy that. No questions. Ex Soldier curbstomping. I can buy THAT. Former aged Bounter Hunter leader stomping. okay, but you're pushing it. But McGills? Hell no. If McGills is killing troopers with deadly accuracy I check out.

[dancrilis]

I meant KOTOR but yea

To put this in context you are talking about KOTOR 2 and how The Exile's crew effectively seem to be set to recreate the Jedi, and that is what you thought they might do for the sequel trilogy ... unless I am reading you very wrong.

[HolyDraconus]

To put this in context you are talking about KOTOR 2 and how The Exile's crew effectively seem to be set to recreate the Jedi, and that is what you thought they might do for the sequel trilogy ... unless I am reading you very wrong.

You are. I meant in the sense that in KOTOR 1 you, the main character, was very much a NOT jedi, doing NOT jedi things, but later become one. Of course when the game is taken as a whole I can see that doesn't fit... Honestly, I thought Finn was going to be Disney's version of Kyle Katarn. A storm trooper that is Force sensitive that later on becomes a Jedi?? I wanted that movie trilogy. Instead we got (IMHO) a group of barely connected movies that killed several legacy characters and fails to push a narrative for a future. Hell, outside of a Lego's retelling, I don't see the Sequel Trilogy spawning ANY spin off games. Even the Mandolorian is set BEFORE that train wreck started. Hell, Kenobi was supposed to have a series and we ALL know THAT was before the Sequel Trilogy as well. I'm not saying that what I wanted would of been better than what we got.... who am I kidding, I FEEL like it would. But we have the Sequels. And gotta make due with what we got.

[Peelee]

You are. I meant in the sense that in KOTOR 1 you, the main character, was very much a NOT jedi, doing NOT jedi things, but later become one. Of course when the game is taken as a whole I can see that doesn't fit... Honestly, I thought Finn was going to be Disney's version of Kyle Katarn.

Is that a deliberate segue to a different game? Because that doesn't sound like KOTOR, but I also haven't played the Kyle Katarn games so I can't say for sure if it's that.

[hamishspence]

Kyle Katarn was a defecting Stormtrooper in Dark Forces I, and became a Jedi in Dark Forces II.

Finn is a defecting Stormtrooper, who is hinted at being Force Sensitive - but it never goes any further than hints.

[dancrilis]

Is that a deliberate segue to a different game? Because that doesn't sound like KOTOR, but I also haven't played the Kyle Katarn games so I can't say for sure if it's that.

I was wrong the last time so lets go for two.

I think they mean the very beginning of KOTOR before you became a jedi (after rescuing Bastila), where prior to that you were effectively just a guy who was on a republic ship that got attacked.

Finn could have been similiar were they spend the first movie being a regular guy, the second movie realising that they were force sensitive and learning to make use of their powers and the third movie being confronted with the shocking truth that they were Palpatine the whole time.

[Peelee]

I was wrong the last time so lets go for two.

I think they mean the very beginning of KOTOR before you became a jedi (after rescuing Bastila), where prior to that you were effectively just a guy who was on a republic ship that got attacked.

Probably. I read "not a jedi doing not a jedi things" as doing things antithetical to to Jedi, like Cassian Andor from Rogue 1, which doesn't really fit the KOTOR main character, and may or may not be more fitting for Jedi Outcast (unsure because I haven't played Jedi Outcast (thanks hamish for reminding me of the title!)). But I could have just read that wrong and it meant "regular person doing regular person things".

[Fyraltari]

Probably. I read "not a jedi doing not a jedi things" as doing things antithetical to to Jedi, like Cassian Andor from Rogue 1, which doesn't really fit the KOTOR main character, and may or may not be more fitting for Jedi Outcast (unsure because I haven't played Jedi Outcast (thanks hamish for reminding me of the title!)). But I could have just read that wrong and it meant "regular person doing regular person things".

Well you spend most of the game tracking down the guy whi killed your girlfriend in order to murder him and even after your character is firmly back to the Light Side you can still Sith Lightning and Force choke fools. I can't say for the rest of the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight serie, though.

[HolyDraconus]

Is that a deliberate segue to a different game? Because that doesn't sound like KOTOR, but I also haven't played the Kyle Katarn games so I can't say for sure if it's that.

It was. Sorry, my thoughts may have been a bit jumbled but....

Kyle Katarn was a defecting Stormtrooper in Dark Forces I, and became a Jedi in Dark Forces II.

Finn is a defecting Stormtrooper, who is hinted at being Force Sensitive - but it never goes any further than hints.

.... this was exactly what i meant.

I was wrong the last time so lets go for two.

I think they mean the very beginning of KOTOR before you became a jedi (after rescuing Bastila), where prior to that you were effectively just a guy who was on a republic ship that got attacked.

Finn could have been similiar were they spend the first movie being a regular guy, the second movie realising that they were force sensitive and learning to make use of their powers and the third movie being confronted with the shocking truth that they were Palpatine the whole time.

this also is what i meant. Well... except the Palpatine part. That asspull will always be stupid to me. But i guess its expected when you smoke Snoke in the second movie of a trilogy.

Probably. I read "not a jedi doing not a jedi things" as doing things antithetical to to Jedi, like Cassian Andor from Rogue 1, which doesn't really fit the KOTOR main character, and may or may not be more fitting for Jedi Outcast (unsure because I haven't played Jedi Outcast (thanks hamish for reminding me of the title!)). But I could have just read that wrong and it meant "regular person doing regular person things".

regular person doing regular things is what i was angling for. Again, i apologize for the jumbled thoughts.

Well you spend most of the game tracking down the guy whi killed your girlfriend in order to murder him and even after your character is firmly back to the Light Side you can still Sith Lightning and Force choke fools. I can't say for the rest of the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight serie, though.

Wouldn't mind a remaster of those games honestly.

[LibraryOgre]

You mean TFA?

I agree with everything else you said, and I agree with everything John Boyega says. That dude deserved so much better, both as a character and as a person. He seems super cool.

TFA was ok; a retread of ANH, in many ways, but a fun retread, nonetheless.

TLJ was really good; it dealt with the source materially seriously and maturely. Kellie Marie Tran's "We win by fighting for what we love" was a great summation of what the light side should be. There was a degree of deconstruction in it... Poe's "jump in a starfighter and blow things up" was shown to have severe problems, not "the way a hero should be". Finn's lack of commitment to the cause was solidified in part by showing him the cost of being self-centered. Rey came face to face with her past, but also learned about her power (it somewhat reminds me of Taran in the Prydain Chronicles... of no notable birth, but notable for his actions)... and, in a sense, it taught her some of the Jedi distance from attachments. She was attached to the idea of her parents. And it gave us two excellent gifs of Luke Skywalker... brushing the dust from his shoulder, and saying "Amazing. Every word in that sentence was wrong."

TRoS was a hot mess. It didn't deal with any of the JJ Abrams mystery boxes from TFA *or* the threads from TLJ. It just hyperspace skipped past all of that, and told a bad retelling of RotJ ("We have a whole FLEET of Death Stars, now!"). It was a series of vignettes, loosely connected, with little character development.

[Peelee]

TLJ was really good; it dealt with the source materially seriously and maturely. Kellie Marie Tran's "We win by fighting for what we love" was a great summation of what the light side should be. There was a degree of deconstruction in it... Poe's "jump in a starfighter and blow things up" was shown to have severe problems, not "the way a hero should be". Finn's lack of commitment to the cause was solidified in part by showing him the cost of being self-centered. Rey came face to face with her past, but also learned about her power (it somewhat reminds me of Taran in the Prydain Chronicles... of no notable birth, but notable for his actions)... and, in a sense, it taught her some of the Jedi distance from attachments. She was attached to the idea of her parents. And it gave us two excellent gifs of Luke Skywalker... brushing the dust from his shoulder, and saying "Amazing. Every word in that sentence was wrong."

TLJ seems like it was an attempt to have messaging that was severely undercut by the execution that at best was woefully underwhelming and at worst undercut the messaging it was trying to convey. Just to use the examples you pointed out, there was no romantic build to to Rose's messaging at the end which was punctuated by romance, Poe's "blow everything up" mentality being skewered turned out to be wrong and everyone would have died twenty minutes in if he had not blown everything up, Finn's realization came at the expense of discovering ships could jump outsystem and then back insystem right on their targets which invalidates the very concept of the chase that takes up the bulk of the plot, and Rey's instruction was less the Jedi way and more nihilism - she had to reject everything Luke told her and steal books on actual Jedi instruction in order to have any positive impact.

After seeing Knives Out, I have full confidence in Rian Johnson to be able to combine messaging and execution seamlessly in a familiar world or a world where he is able to make up his own rules, but I cannot have any confidence in him when entering someone else's world which already has a rich and vibrant set of rules. I don't think the Star Wars universe was a good fit for him, and I think I would have loved that movie if he had made his own sci-fi universe where he wouldn't have been constrained with what he wanted to have happen by the way the universe already exists.

TFA was only as good as it was because it was ANH with the serial numbers filed off; wholesale stealing another movie is the only way Abrams could have a competent story IMO, so I still think TLJ may be the best of the sequel trilogy by discounting TFA on the grounds that at least Johnson made his own original movie.

[HolyDraconus]

TLJ seems like it was an attempt to have messaging that was severely undercut by the execution that at best was woefully underwhelming and at worst undercut the messaging it was trying to convey. Just to use the examples you pointed out, there was no romantic build to to Rose's messaging at the end which was punctuated by romance, Poe's "blow everything up" mentality being skewered turned out to be wrong and everyone would have died twenty minutes in if he had not blown everything up, Finn's realization came at the expense of discovering ships could jump outsystem and then back insystem right on their targets which invalidates the very concept of the chase that takes up the bulk of the plot, and Rey's instruction was less the Jedi way and more nihilism - she had to reject everything Luke told her and steal books on actual Jedi instruction in order to have any positive impact.

After seeing Knives Out, I have full confidence in Ryan Johnson to be able to combine messaging and execution seamlessly in a familiar world or a world where he is able to make up his own rules, but I cannot have any confidence in him when entering someone else's world which already has a rich and vibrant set of rules. I don't think the Star Wars universe was a good fit for him, and I think I would have loved that movie if he had made his own sci-fi universe where he wouldn't have been constrained with what he wanted to have happen by the way the universe already exists.

TFA was only as good as it was because it was ANH with the serial numbers filed off; wholesale stealing another movie is the only way Abrams could have a competent story IMO, so I still think TLJ may be the best of the sequel trilogy by discounting TFA on the grounds that at least Johnson made his own original movie.

Eh, that's not a huge bar tho. TFA had the SEEDS of leading to something great atleast: it did pay (in some's opinion too much) homage to the world of SWs and honestly its weight was impacted hard by the other two movies in the trilogy. If the second and third was great, and continued on from where it left off, it would have been able to stand on its own. That didn't happen though. TLJ is a bad movie. I'm not saying that people can't like bad movies: I love Mario Bros and Fist of the North Star for example, and they are objectively bad movies, but I am saying TLJ is also bad. It came off as a movie that would of be PHENOMANAL if it wasn't Star Wars or the second of a trilogy. But it was, so its bad.

The main villain? Dead. Wholesome messaging? Plenty. Romance? With tension. Action? Gravity in space and arced shots and explosions. Drama? Death of a hero. It checked off so many boxes that it should be full on contender for greatest movie of all time right? But its Star Wars. AND the second of a TRILOGY. Main villain dead? Screw the third movie. Wholesome messaging in an incomplete trilogy? Screw the third movie. Romance pay off in an incomplete trilogy? Screw the third movie. Gravity in space and arced shots? Screw the SW world.

It killed (personally) hype for the third movie. That's not what the second of three is supposed to do. TRS had ashes to build on cause TLJ burned everything down. And through it all it ignored a LOT of what TFA was supposed to setup. Force sensitive stormtrooper breaking code? Joke Character. Random nobody that's the strongest in the Force, so much so that the son of the chosen one has never felt such strength before? Continues to have zero growth and is now "Skywalker". Super pilot that was previously scolded for being too awesome? Still awesome. Romance from the previous movie? LITERALLY shelved, and as such "replaced".

Its a crater. Like running headlong right over a cliff. That's where the SW timeline is right now, thanks to TLJ and TRS.

[Peelee]

One of the things TLJ did that I really loved was having Rey be a nobody. I'm very much not a fan of the idea of "royal bloodlines" where she could only be a descendent of one of the powerful Force families in order to be effective, and more or less having Force Powers be "that person was just born better than the other people". I loved that Johnson moved away from that, even if I disliked how hamfistedly blatant broom boy was at the end. And then of course Abrams decided "to go in a different direction that made no sense and had no foreshadowing for a played-out villain who's return diminished the all the other movies because he can make a quick buck off a flash in the pan.

I would not call myself an Abrams fan.

[HolyDraconus]

One of the things TLJ did that I really loved was having Rey be a nobody. I'm very much not a fan of the idea of "royal bloodlines" where she could only be a descendent of one of the powerful Force families in order to be effective, and more or less having Force Powers be "that person was just born better than the other people". I loved that Johnson moved away from that, even if I disliked how hamfistedly blatant broom boy was at the end. And then of course Abrams decided "to go in a different direction that made no sense and had no foreshadowing for a played-out villain who's return diminished the all the other movies because he can make a quick buck off a flash in the pan.

I would not call myself an Abrams fan.

There's plenty of Star Wars stories where the main character is a nobody that becomes strong in the Force. Rey being a nobody or of "nobility" SHOULDN'T have even been a thing, but it BECAME one because of how absurdly powerful that Rey was. That was one of the issues with that character. If she wasn't as strong, if she had to struggle, if she couldn't do it all, if she didn't beat people trained in areas she's never once considered competing in on her first try.. IF, if if. Rey as a character felt like a bad addition to the SW mythos. Because she was so strong, because she didn't struggle, because she could do it all, because she beat people trained in areas she's never once considered competing in on her first try, her lineage jumped front and center. For A LOT of people, her being of the "nobility" would at least give her some semblance of a pass. So when TLJ said "nah, you a nobody" was like yanking the rug out from under some people to reveal a pit trap. In that instance, TLJ was screwed by TFA. Cause it started that nonsense.

Again, if TLJ was a seperate movie entirely, one that was even divorced from SW or, at least, from being the up front and center direction of the main family of characters, it would of been a Greatest of All Time, cause again, it checked a lot of those boxes.

[Fyraltari]

That didn't happen though. TLJ is a bad movie. I'm not saying that people can't like bad movies: I love Mario Bros and Fist of the North Star for example, and they are objectively bad movies, but I am saying TLJ is also bad. It came off as a movie that would of be PHENOMANAL if it wasn't Star Wars or the second of a trilogy. But it was, so its bad.

What's an objectively bad movie? A movie with shoddy shot composition, poor acting, unconvincing effects, bad dialogs, non-sensical (or non-existant) characterization, a confused message and/or an inorganic plot. TLJ has none of this. You may dislike it, you may disagree with what it is saying, you may think it clashes with the rest of the franchise, you may think it doesn't play its role in its trilogy but calling it "an objectively bad movie" is simply not true.

The main villain? Dead. Wholesome messaging? Plenty. Romance? With tension. Action? Gravity in space and arced shots and explosions. Drama? Death of a hero. It checked off so many boxes that it should be full on contender for greatest movie of all time right? But its Star Wars. AND the second of a TRILOGY. Main villain dead? Screw the third movie. Wholesome messaging in an incomplete trilogy? Screw the third movie. Romance pay off in an incomplete trilogy? Screw the third movie. Gravity in space and arced shots? Screw the SW world.

TLJ is setting up Kylo Ren as the trilogy's main villain. I do't understand your criticism of the message or the romance.

And seriously, complaining about spatial physics in a Star Wars movie? Debris staying in place when a ship explode, ships slowing down when not actively accelarating, ships being within visual distances of each other, ships all facing the same way, ships being able to reach planets in a matter of days without using fasten-than-light speed all that is fine but arced shots is over the line?

It killed (personally) hype for the third movie. That's not what the second of three is supposed to do. TRS had ashes to build on cause TLJ burned everything down. And through it all it ignored a LOT of what TFA was supposed to setup.

At the end of TLJ we have a hero come to term with who she was leading a resistance against the evil empire lead by a vilain who's paradoxically mor epowerfule than he's ever been while at the same time more insecure than ever and fully commited to being eeeeeeeevil while his henchman has been shown to loathe him and willing to stab him in the back. And there's a Jedi Order to rebuild. That's plenty to build on.

Force sensitive stormtrooper breaking code? Joke Character.

Finn's force-sensitivity was not established in TFA (or on-screen for that matter) and he's not a joke character in TLJ even if his character arc is somewhat redundant with the one in TFA and should have focused on his relationship with other stormtroopers.

Its a crater. Like running headlong right over a cliff. That's where the SW timeline is right now, thanks to TLJ and TRS.

Honestly, I blame Abrams for throwing a million things he had no idea how to resolve at the wall in TFA and then completely failing to resolve them in TROS.

I should also be remembered that it was TFA that established the failure of Luke's new order, Han and Leia being "going back to what they did best" and blew up the New Republic. If there had been an overaching plan thought in advance this could have been made meaningful, but there wasn't. And so the (in my eyes) biggest failure of the Sequel Trilogy, that it undid all the achievements of the trilogy it is a sequel to, can be laid at TFA's and Abrams' feet.

One of the things TLJ did that I really loved was having Rey be a nobody. I'm very much not a fan of the idea of "royal bloodlines" where she could only be a descendent of one of the powerful Force families in order to be effective, and more or less having Force Powers be "that person was just born better than the other people". I loved that Johnson moved away from that, even if I disliked how hamfistedly blatant broom boy was at the end.

Yup.

And then of course Abrams decided "to go in a different direction that made no sense and had no foreshadowing for a played-out villain who's return diminished the all the other movies because he can make a quick buck off a flash in the pan.

I would not call myself an Abrams fan.

And what's worse, I'm not sure he's aware that it is basiclly the same tiwst as Star Wars' (and frankly cineam's) most famous twist, but worse.



What does "a flash in the pan" mean?

[Sapphire Guard]

Rey Nobody is fine as a concept (it makes much more sense than her being related to someone), as a big dramatic reveal in universe it makes no sense, because why would anyone expect her to be, unless they've watched the movies?

(And even then, lineage matter in the films much less than training.)

Also, the other lead is Finn, AKA FN-2187. He was never even given a name. But it never matters that he's a nobody, it makes Rey look really bad for falling for Kylo's nonsense when her best friend is nobody and that never matters to her.

A lot of this is inherent to the medium of action-oriented TV. You're going to have some kind of fight scene in pretty much every episode, sometimes two. Those fight scenes have to have at least some dramatic tension, the good guys can't just curbstomp the enemy minions all the time. This means a lot of close escapes, lousy enemy marksmanship, shots that manage to always hit armor, and so forth. The alternative is sacrificing Red Shirts every episode, which isn't any better.

It's easy enough to change the dynamics, especially in a series as short as this.

Have Stormtroopers present a threat when they don't have such overwhelming advantages. Have Stormtroopers take cover, have them take time and effort to overcome. Make fewer of them more dangerous, rather than swarms of troops that are worthless.

Mando can defeat them, but instead of waltzing through with no effort he has to stay on his toes. And stop making jokes about how harmless your primary opponents are.

[Mechalich]

I'd like to suggest that we try to avoid re-arguing the merits of TLJ and the ST generally in this thread save as they are specifically relevant to The Mandalorian.

The most recent episode contains a suggestion of tie-ins to ST material, or somewhat more accurately to EU material created to justify aspects of the ST (cloning, strandcasts, etc.) the movies themselves did not explain. However, it seems like something that would be difficult for the story to take a long ways.

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Dr. Pershing's holovid implies that the Empire needs a steady supply of blood with a high midichlorian count to stabilize whatever it is they're trying to create - whether it's a Palpatine clone, Snoke, or something similar. The Child also apparently isn't an effective option, simply because it probably doesn't have enough body mass to reliably transfuse midichlorians into someone of adult human size even if you stuck it into a blood-farming machine. Also, I put the chances of Disney allowing the Empire to do such a thing to their toy-sales driving meme machine at statistically indistinguishable from zero.

That means if this plotline is going to continue the Empire needs someone, or perhaps several someones, to use as a Midichlorian donor. Ahsoka's a possibility, she's pretty darn strong in the Force. So's Ezra, assuming he's made it back to the known galaxy after running off with space whalesquids. Or maybe there's something else. After all, if a planet full of Yoda's species exists somewhere, and the Empire managed to find it, that would give them all the Midichlorian rich blood they'd ever need.

Or The Mandalorian could be setting up an AU timeline where the ST never happens because Snoke is never formed, and option considerably less crazy than it initially sounded.

[dancrilis]

Personally I found Palpatine the best part of the sequels - he can carry a scene (and movie), which the other two movies were sorely lacking someone capable of doing.

The intial three star wars movies had good villains (Vader +1 for each of them), the prequels had decent villains (Palpatine +1 for the first two Palpatine on his own for the last) - the sequels had nothing and bringing Palpatine back fixed that (so nothing, and nothing and then Palpatine).

Would it have been better to actually introduce a new decent villian instead of bringing back Palpatine - maybe - but they wouldn't have had the built in gravity that Palpatine had and the movie didn't really have time to either elevate the other characters to that role (except maybe maybe Rey or possibly Luke if he had faked his death) or introduce a new one.

There's plenty of Star Wars stories where the main character is a nobody that becomes strong in the Force. Rey being a nobody or of "nobility" SHOULDN'T have even been a thing, but it BECAME one because of how absurdly powerful that Rey was.

I do wonder how it would have been recieved if:

Spoiler: Disturbing Theory

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I am warning you.

Spoiler: Seriously do yourself a favour and don't read on

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The Jedi do not allow the attachment of children (or marraige) because the children of such are always powerful in the force(Luke and Leia) - but while that would not be an issue they are also drawn to one another as the midiclorians try to recombine, the children of those couples are significantly more powerful again but they are also likely mentally unstable (and sometimes have physical and genetic issues also).

Luke and Leia hooked up which drove Luke into questioning everything and into seclusion, Han walked when he found out Leia cheated on him - and Leia gave up the child (Rey) for adoption and threw herself into her work.

Palpatine had nothing to do with any of this.

It explains why Jedi avoid attachments, why Rey was so powerful, it builds on Luke and Leia's attraction from the original movies, gives Han a good reason to walk out, plays on the whole element that Leia seemed to act in the role of mother that Rey never had (hugging her instead of Chewbacca when Han died - she was seeking comfort not offering comfort) and Luke in the role of distant father (not wanting to be remained of his failings and seeking to stay away from Leia), seems to answer a lot of questions ... so much so that I wonder if the writers may have initially intended it until someone (sensible) said 'no, just no'.

[Fyraltari]

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Dr. Pershing's holovid implies that the Empire needs a steady supply of blood with a high midichlorian count to stabilize whatever it is they're trying to create - whether it's a Palpatine clone, Snoke, or something similar.

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Between the consept art showing a whole row of human in tubes and the end seen with the dark armors, I feel confident stating that it's the shadowtrooper project being ported from Legends: create an army of force-sensitives loyal to the empire to reconquer the galaxy.

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The Child also apparently isn't an effective option, simply because it probably doesn't have enough body mass to reliably transfuse midichlorians into someone of adult human size even if you stuck it into a blood-farming machine.

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My understanding was that they could only draw enough blood from him to do so many experiences at a time. But if they kept him fed, they could presumably just keep draining him until they amange to isolate what they need and clone that.

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Also, I put the chances of Disney allowing the Empire to do such a thing to their toy-sales driving meme machine at statistically indistinguishable from zero.

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Don't worry, I hear they have hired a shiny looking mercenary to ensure that doesn't happen.

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That means if this plotline is going to continue the Empire needs someone, or perhaps several someones, to use as a Midichlorian donor. Ahsoka's a possibility, she's pretty darn strong in the Force. So's Ezra, assuming he's made it back to the known galaxy after running off with space whalesquids. Or maybe there's something else. After all, if a planet full of Yoda's species exists somewhere, and the Empire managed to find it, that would give them all the Midichlorian rich blood they'd ever need.

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I wonder how much progress Luke has made in his effort to rebuild the Jedi Order at this point in the timeline.

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Or The Mandalorian could be setting up an AU timeline where the ST never happens because Snoke is never formed, and option considerably less crazy than it initially sounded.

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From the little the movie showed, it doesn't seems like Snoke's creation had anything to do with Imperial Remnant factions. I doubt Palpatine's involved with any of that.

[Sapphire Guard]

Spoiler: Mandalorian

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Most likely the project we're looking at is Snoke, which presents problems because that can't bear fruit in this series.

The other big reveal was Dark Troopers, but if so... so what? They don't really change the game. It just highlights the general ineffectiveness of the Imps that they need super duper troopers to achieve anything.

If there's Yodaling planet, that breaks one of George's only hard rules and the story probably has to destroy it to not break the game.

Yodaling is too profitable to die. He's technically a Mandalorian, but if the show keeps him around too long either he has to suddenly start growing up quicker or will get stale.

Ahsoka is going to be interesting, but also kind of a dead end. If she's running a 'technically not Jedi Order' that rips any impact out of the ST's temple massacre. If she's not, what's she doing that will keep her out of the story?

Spoiler: TCW, in case Fyraltari is in here

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Bo Katan has no right to the throne of Mandalore, by Deathwatch rules she should have conceded to Maul, by Satine's rules she's a traitor and terrorist. She's a usurper twice over.

All these cameos and tie ins risk drowning the story, because their payoffs have to be elsewhere and have little relationship with Mando himself.

[Peelee]

There's plenty of Star Wars stories where the main character is a nobody that becomes strong in the Force. Rey being a nobody or of "nobility" SHOULDN'T have even been a thing, but it BECAME one because of how absurdly powerful that Rey was.

I actually disagree that Rey was all that powerful in a sense; she clearly progresses far faster than anyone else we've seen on film, TV, or books in the canon, yes, but this isn't so much "Rey is super powerful" as it is "Abrams has no grasp on how to handle power creep and Johnson just went along with it". Poe is objectively the single greatest starpilot in the galaxy; in TFA, he shoots down 8 TIEs in 10 seconds - the number may be a bit off, since I don't remember the exact count, but it's close enough for the point: it's an insane level of skill not seen anywhere else in the SW universe, because Abrams believes the only way to showcase someone being a good and effective pilot is for them to be ridiculously over-the-top. Poe flies better than Jedi do. TLJ worsens this, as he's able to single-handedly take on a dreadnaught, which is seemingly made of papier-mâché, and still managed to destroy TIE fighters despite an entire enemy squadron flying against him alone while he has non-functional weapons.

This is, quite simply, a ****ing insane level of skill. And the rest of the characters aren't far off. Han has literally faster-than-lightspeed reflexes. Holdo can absolutely nail a one-in-a-million shot where both her allies and her enemies are completely, 100% sure it will work. Palpatine can fry a hundred-thousand Star Destroyers (actually probably a million or more) at the same time.

Rey is absurdly powerful by the standards of the rest of the Star Wars universe, but by the standards of the sequel trilogy? Rey is a pretty average Jedi. Everyone's powers, skills, and abilities in that series was jacked up to a frankly stupidly high level to the point that if Rey weren't as powerful as she was, she would be worse than the non-Force users. So no, I don't think she needs the "Force Nobility" line when nobody else needs to be descended from god-tier pilot parents or hyperspace-fast-hands grandparents.

What's an objectively bad movie? A movie with shoddy shot composition, poor acting, unconvincing effects, bad dialogs, non-sensical (or non-existant) characterization, a confused message and/or an inorganic plot. TLJ has none of this. You may dislike it, you may disagree with what it is saying, you may think it clashes with the rest of the franchise, you may think it doesn't play its role in its trilogy but calling it "an objectively bad movie" is simply not true.

For most of these I'll agree with, but TLJ did have non-sensical/nonexistant characterization (the lack of any chemistry or romance forshadowing with Rose and Finn until she kisses him), it does have logically inconsistent plot devices (Rose and Finn crashing in No Man's Land far from the base while actively under heavy enemy fire, yet somehow returning to the base without dying was super easy, barely an inconvenience, the aforementioned capability of ships to leave the chase and then return (especially the capability to do this while returning within incredibly close range of the opposing fleet)), and Deejay was (arguably) the very definition of inorganic (and inarguably a plot device rather than a character). Regardless of whether people like or dislike the movie, there are definite issues with the structure, though I do completely agree that it is wrong to call it objectively bad.

And seriously, complaining about spatial physics in a Star Wars movie? Debris staying in place when a ship explode, ships slowing down when not actively accelarating, ships being within visual distances of each other, ships all facing the same way, ships being able to reach planets in a matter of days without using fasten-than-light speed all that is fine but arced shots is over the line?

I would normally agree with you but in this case it's not a question of spatial physics so much as it is a question of continuity. We never see any lasers curve in any other Star Wars movies or shows. We even see other First Order Star Destroyers in the other movies, which do not have curving lasers. Having them curve in one and only one movie breaks from how they are established to work in every other Star Wars media.

What does "a flash in the pan" mean?

A very brief instance of interest which has no staying power. Something which disappoints by failing to deliver anything of value, despite a showy beginning. A sudden spasmodic effort that accomplishes nothing. One that appears promising but turns out to be disappointing or worthless.

Multiple dictionary definitions that don't really nail how I mean it (because I somehow can't quite put it that well myself at the moment) but point in the general direction.

Spoiler: Mandalorian

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Most likely the project we're looking at is Snoke, which presents problems because that can't bear fruit in this series.

The other big reveal was Dark Troopers, but if so... so what? They don't really change the game. It just highlights the general ineffectiveness of the Imps that they need super duper troopers to achieve anything.

If there's Yodaling planet, that breaks one of George's only hard rules and the story probably has to destroy it to not break the game.

Yodaling is too profitable to die. He's technically a Mandalorian, but if the show keeps him around too long either he has to suddenly start growing up quicker or will get stale.

Ahsoka is going to be interesting, but also kind of a dead end. If she's running a 'technically not Jedi Order' that rips any impact out of the ST's temple massacre. If she's not, what's she doing that will keep her out of the story?

Spoiler: TCW, in case Fyraltari is in here

Show

Bo Katan has no right to the throne of Mandalore, by Deathwatch rules she should have conceded to Maul, by Satine's rules she's a traitor and terrorist. She's a usurper twice over.

All these cameos and tie ins risk drowning the story, because their payoffs have to be elsewhere and have little relationship with Mando himself.

Spoiler

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No way is it going to be Snoke, if only because that doesn't really make any sense. Snoke is the Emperor's thing, and he's off on Exogul in secrecy. I'm thinking Gideon wants ot make himself a Force user.

[Dire_Flumph]

I gotta stop getting to new episodes so late, another thread has spiraled into endlessly circular sequel arguments again.

As much as I enjoyed season 1, I think they've really upped the game in season 2. No galaxy-spanning mega plots, no epic tales, no exploding planets, just some really good bite sized space adventure with a sprinkling of fan-service.

Spoiler: some thoughts

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Yeah, I had the Snoke link spoiled for me somewhat, and it doesn't really work timing wise. Unless he's the result of an Imperial Moff getting subjected to an experimental Midichlorian-Booster shot, I think Rise of Skywalker's "Palpatine did it" explanation is about as much sense as that will make.

Was this the first time the Arquitens Command Cruiser has been on screen in live action? Love that ship design for some reason and it was a treat to see it scroll overhead. (I have a miniature from the Star Wars: Armada game sitting on my desk)

Oh when will the Empire learn that renewable energy kills? If the Death Star had been coal powered it would have all gone very differently. ;)

I'd argue in support of the effectiveness of Stormtroopers, but crashing a speeder bike 10 seconds out of the garage? Really?

It's really nice to see the effects of a place actually being *improved* by our hero's actions in this franchise. I'm scratching my head for other notable examples and Lothal is all I'm coming up with.

[Peelee]

Spoiler: some thoughts

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Was this the first time the Arquitens Command Cruiser has been on screen in live action?

Spoiler

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Spoiler: some thoughts

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I'd argue in support of the effectiveness of Stormtroopers, but crashing a speeder bike 10 seconds out of the garage? Really?

Spoiler

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I'm surprised at how many people get that takeway. I saw it as a super dangerous thing to do, which they are still able to handle for the most part except for one (and another gets unlucky based off that one). Definitely don't think that driving speederbikes down sheer, craggy cliffsides is a normal thing for them.

Spoiler: some thoughts

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It's really nice to see the effects of a place actually being *improved* by our hero's actions in this franchise.

Spoiler

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My post is like poetry, it rhymes.

[Devonix]

The main villain? Dead.

See this right here is the issue. Snoke wasn't the main villain, He never was. Snoke's purpose in the story was to motivate Kylo Ren to be the Main villain of the trillogy. Because the plan was always for Kylo Ren to not be redeemed.

[Peelee]

See this right here is the issue. Snoke wasn't the main villain, He never was. Snoke's purpose in the story was to motivate Kylo Ren to be the Main villain of the trillogy. Because the plan was always for Kylo Ren to not be redeemed.

The sequel trilogy had a plan?

[dancrilis]

The sequel trilogy had a plan?

Search your feelings Peelee you know it to be false.

[Mechalich]

Spoiler

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I'm surprised at how many people get that takeway. I saw it as a super dangerous thing to do, which they are still able to handle for the most part except for one (and another gets unlucky based off that one). Definitely don't think that driving speederbikes down sheer, craggy cliffsides is a normal thing for them.

Spoiler

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Yeah, I see it more as equipment failure than bad piloting mostly. All it really takes to explain that crash is a repulsorlift coil dropping output by half in the wrong moment. Speeder bikes can pull stunts like that, we've seen it done in TCW and Rebels, but that's if they're properly maintained and if they're replaced after they've worn down past the point of effective repair. Pretty much all the Imperial-made stuff we've seen in the show so far, including stuff not actually in the hands of Imperials like the AT-ST the Klatoonian bandits salvaged, has been barely functioning junk.

This makes sense for a bunch of reasons. One, the Empire had slaves and convicts doing a lot of their maintenance, and those have all run off by now. Two, toward the end of the Imperial period Palpatine undercut the budget on the conventional military by an almost unimaginable amount so he could build his Death Stars so the quality of procurement obvious went down a lot. Three, this is the Outer Rim and none of the gear they were issued in the first place was all that good.

See this right here is the issue. Snoke wasn't the main villain, He never was. Snoke's purpose in the story was to motivate Kylo Ren to be the Main villain of the trillogy. Because the plan was always for Kylo Ren to not be redeemed.

There was no plan. This really isn't a matter of debate at this point. While several of the people involved have tried to use weasel words to cover this monumental failure somewhat, there's more than enough information out there regarding the ST to make it quite clear that no overarching plan for all three movies existed beyond rough notes and no individual oversaw the projects or made the directors respect said notes.

Mandalorian, by contrast, clearly has a plan, conceived by Favreau and Filoni, and the difference is clear to see despite the much more episodic nature of the TV series structure.

[Dire_Flumph]

The sequel trilogy had a plan?

Yes, they cribbed it from the Cylons.

[Wraith]

Mando can defeat them, but instead of waltzing through with no effort he has to stay on his toes. And stop making jokes about how harmless your primary opponents are.

I think that this is something built on way, way better in The Mandalorian than they did in the original movies - even the Original trilogy.

In A New Hope, the Stromtroopers start out as being nigh-superhuman as they invade Leia's ship and slaughter an unknown number of rebels in minutes, and a little later they're such excellent marksman and hunters that even Obi-Wan Kenobi remarks upon in - General Kenobi, veteran of the Clone War said that? They must be pretty great.

But then the meme kicks in - they can't shoot straight, and dozens of them are chasing an untrained farm-boy around for ages without a single shot hitting it's mark. It's so egregious that fans have made up conspiracy theories about it; the Troopers were under orders to allow Skywalker to escape so that he could bring the leaked Death Star plans to the rebels where the trap would be sprung and they'd be wiped out forever, etc.

From there it never really escalates. On Hoth the stormtroopers were new helmets, but they're the same sort of vaguely-competent as before, and then after that they're beaten up by teddy bears with rocks tied to sticks. The fearsome Imperial enforcers, ladies and gentlemen, still in the same dorky helmets and rattling white armour!

The Mandolorian, however, has managed to raise the stakes subtly and effectively. The first stormtroopers we see in Episode 01 are slovenly and unprofessional - their armour is rusty and they talk back to the visitor with barely concealed apathy. These guys get justifiably Batman'd by the hero over the space of about 10 minutes.

The next time we see them, however, are under the command of Moth Gideon - their armour is shiny, there's a platoon of them, and they mortally wound Mando. The day is only saved by the death of two named protagonists.
They're notably more competent, better equipped and organised and it shows - culminating in the most recent episode where we've gone from shabby, barely threatening dregs up to black-armoured Super Troopers who the average audience member probably doesn't recognise, but they can make an educated guess at an escalating threat when they see it.

This is why, I think, the jokes work better in the TV show. The characters have mostly seen the Grunts of a disenfranchised army, but there's plenty more waiting in the wings; Mando knows this, because those same reinforcements have killed one of his friends, and he notably doesn't join in when the other Mandolorians are making jokes about Trooper incompetence.