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  1. - Top - End - #91
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Okay I'm curious, let's break the new rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritchaser View Post
    This worked before. Even without the right stats, at least for fighter builds. With an extra ASI, you got the stats you needed soon enough.

    Thereís no question this will make life better in the first few levels, and you could certainly call it early level specific power creep, but I donít see this as broken.
    Well I'm talking specifically levels 3-5. I get the instinct to say "you got the stats you needed soon enough" but "soon enough" is several levels later, and more importantly IRL possibly weeks or months. Or never, in an intentional one shot or game that ends early.

    I don't think the Yuan-Ti fighter is anywhere near as powerful as the Birdlock or birdbarb, but in any if this cases I think the threshold for "broken" isn't "is this broken on average across all levels across all adventures" but "does this have the potential to break sessions of adventures"

    Birdlocks and birdbarbs (like bird clerics and bird rangers and to a lesser extent bird monks before them) clearly break a lot of low level sessions. You basically just win outdoor encounters without question or cost, and sometimes they even break core narrative turning points of modules (e.g. The start of LMoP doesn't make sense with the party flying in the air, there may be some modules where being unable to get somewhere fliable is important.) A DM can work around this, but that's repair work necessitated by player's chosing an option that broke something.

    Idk that level 3 Yuan-Ti fighters rise to that level necessarily, but I don't think their balance at level 12 can be used to say they are not broken at lower levels.

  2. - Top - End - #92
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGirl

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    Default Re: Okay I'm curious, let's break the new rules

    The best way I have to 'break' the game with these rules is to play a rock gnome and switch out your tinker's tools proficiency. There's a few ways of looking at this:

    1. You can't make your creations from Tinker until you become proficient in tinker's tools.
    2. You can still make your creations using tinker's tools, despite having no skill with them
    3. You can still make your creations, but you do so with your new tools. (whatever those tools are)
    4. You lag the game by making the DM waste RAM processing this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Petrocorus View Post
    This thread, Questions that can't be answered... Answered by RAW by No brains, is Epic.
    Quote Originally Posted by illyahr View Post
    That is so stupid it's hilarious.
    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    ...I've clearly been playing D&D for too long, because that made a demented kind of sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by that_one_kobold View Post
    And this is why I love D&D

  3. - Top - End - #93
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Jul 2013

    Default Re: Okay I'm curious, let's break the new rules

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    The best way I have to 'break' the game with these rules is to play a rock gnome and switch out your tinker's tools proficiency. There's a few ways of looking at this:

    1. You can't make your creations from Tinker until you become proficient in tinker's tools.
    2. You can still make your creations using tinker's tools, despite having no skill with them
    3. You can still make your creations, but you do so with your new tools. (whatever those tools are)
    4. You lag the game by making the DM waste RAM processing this.
    4b The DM calls for an untrained Int check to use the ability until you become proficient.

  4. - Top - End - #94
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Vulsutyr's Avatar

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    Default Re: Okay I'm curious, let's break the new rules

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    1. You can still make your creations, but you do so with your new tools. (whatever those tools are)
    I want it to be this one. Carpenter's tools, it's a wooden machine. Glassblower? glass creature. Brewer's supplies? you whip up a drink to accompany you
    Quote Originally Posted by Dante
    I wish to fill your intellect with light,
    light so aflame with life that cannot cease,
    in your eyes it will tremble like a star. -Beatrice, Paradiso 2.109-11

  5. - Top - End - #95
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Okay I'm curious, let's break the new rules

    Seeing some of the things that can be swapped around now, what even is the point of races anymore?

  6. - Top - End - #96
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Okay I'm curious, let's break the new rules

    Quote Originally Posted by tsuyoshikentsu View Post
    Anybody who thinks no one will play humans severely underestimates the power of a first-level bonus feat.

    Standard humans may see a drop-off, but standard human is terrible anyway.
    An advantage that vanishes entirely by 4th level. After that point, a Mountan Dwarf or Half Elf are strictly superior.

    Weird that a change ostensibly made to combat racism has simply led to the rise of master races and untermensch.

  7. - Top - End - #97
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Mjolnirbear's Avatar

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    Mar 2015

    Default Re: Okay I'm curious, let's break the new rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    An advantage that vanishes entirely by 4th level. After that point, a Mountan Dwarf or Half Elf are strictly superior.

    Weird that a change ostensibly made to combat racism has simply led to the rise of master races and untermensch.
    You mean at level 4, when the variant human can have two feats to the dwarf's one feat?
    Avatar by the awesome Linklele!

  8. - Top - End - #98
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Okay I'm curious, let's break the new rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjolnirbear View Post
    You mean at level 4, when the variant human can have two feats to the dwarf's one feat?
    There are feats worth -1 damage and ~10% fewer hit. There are not two feats collectively worth -2 damage and ~20% fewer hits.

  9. - Top - End - #99
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Sep 2019
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    Default Re: Okay I'm curious, let's break the new rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    There are feats worth -1 damage and ~10% fewer hit. There are not two feats collectively worth -2 damage and ~20% fewer hits.
    No love for Sentinel + PAM creating the ultimate buffer zone?

  10. - Top - End - #100
    Troll in the Playground
     
    stoutstien's Avatar

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    Default Re: Okay I'm curious, let's break the new rules

    Quote Originally Posted by micahaphone View Post
    No love for Sentinel + PAM creating the ultimate buffer zone?
    Frankly an over rates combo unless you only fight single target encounters with NPCs with no alternative tactics than smash them with my fist.
    It's a good combo but 2 feats is a heavy cost for a single trick.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

    All credit to the amazing avatar goes to thoroughlyS

  11. - Top - End - #101
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Okay I'm curious, let's break the new rules

    Quote Originally Posted by micahaphone View Post
    No love for Sentinel + PAM creating the ultimate buffer zone?
    It's not worth going from hitting on a 10 to hitting on a 12, no.

  12. - Top - End - #102
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Okay I'm curious, let's break the new rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    Weird that a change ostensibly made to combat racism has simply led to the rise of master races and untermensch.
    'This patch to an existing system (a sprawling, exception-based system with specifics that take pages to say) will totally solve this problem, even though it doesn't replace the system, so much as tweak it in one specific way (that can be easily described in a paragraph or two)' is not the way not to make winners and losers. Pretty sure the designers knew this, but considered it the fix at which they could succeed. High elves are not now clear-and-away better wizards than half-orcs, and that's pretty much the scope I think they wanted to address.

  13. - Top - End - #103
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    zinycor's Avatar

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    Dec 2013

    Default Re: Okay I'm curious, let's break the new rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    High elves are not now clear-and-away better wizards than half-orcs, and that's pretty much the scope I think they wanted to address.
    They (and dwarves) might be the best artificers, since they can replace their whole bunch of weapon proficiencies for tool proficiencies.
    Last son of the Lu-Ching dynasty

    thog is the champion, thog's friends! and thog keeps on fighting to the end!

  14. - Top - End - #104
    Troll in the Playground
     
    jaappleton's Avatar

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    Jul 2016

    Default Re: Okay I'm curious, let's break the new rules

    High Elves are, however, now an excellent race for Clerics that want to take a SCAG cantrip.

  15. - Top - End - #105
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Oct 2019

    Default Re: Okay I'm curious, let's break the new rules

    "High Elves are, however, now an excellent race for Clerics that want to take a SCAG cantrip."

    Rogues who want one too.

  16. - Top - End - #106
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Okay I'm curious, let's break the new rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    High elves are not now clear-and-away better wizards than half-orcs...
    No, but now Mountain Dwarves/Half-Elves are, while ALSO becoming better choices for classes at which the Half-Orcs used to excel. If their goal was to make the game less "racist" they failed spectacularly.

    They should not have allowed the +2 to float, period. They turn into a +1 if you float them. A really simple, and obvious, solution that I can't imagine they didn't think of.

  17. - Top - End - #107
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Okay I'm curious, let's break the new rules

    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    High Elves are, however, now an excellent race for Clerics that want to take a SCAG cantrip.
    This would be more compelling if Half Elves didn't also have access to this ability.

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