Modern soldiers vs. Faerun. What do you think happens?

[The Glyphstone]

Another thought occurred to me last night. Aren't we pitting a trained military force against what are essentially civilians? Even if the civilians have magic, won't they react as poorly to the Out of Context Problem that is the attackers, as the troops will against magical threats?

[pendell]

Another thought occurred to me last night. Aren't we pitting a trained military force against what are essentially civilians? Even if the civilians have magic, won't they react as poorly to the Out of Context Problem that is the attackers, as the troops will against magical threats?

If we're talking about mages high level enough to win this all by themselves, they've probably spent time confronting outsiders, summoning outsiders, or doing planar travel. They may be used to dealing with problems on plane far stranger than the alternate-Prime Material Plane which is Earth. I don't think such mages would have much in the way of out-of-context issues and would be well positioned to face an extraplanar threat.

But then again, we're back to the fact that Elminster is an I Win button for Faerun.

If we suppose mages of lesser rank or experience, they would still be better prepared than modern soldiers since part of their apprenticeship should be both other planes and extraplanar beings. Theoretical knowledge and potentially some practical knowledge also.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Traab]

If we're talking about mages high level enough to win this all by themselves, they've probably spent time confronting outsiders, summoning outsiders, or doing planar travel. They may be used to dealing with problems on plane far stranger than the alternate-Prime Material Plane which is Earth. I don't think such mages would have much in the way of out-of-context issues and would be well positioned to face an extraplanar threat.

But then again, we're back to the fact that Elminster is an I Win button for Faerun.

If we suppose mages of lesser rank or experience, they would still be better prepared than modern soldiers since part of their apprenticeship should be both other planes and extraplanar beings. Theoretical knowledge and potentially some practical knowledge also.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Yeah im going with, while most wouldnt have military level training and experience, they also generally dont get to high level without fighting in a few battles from time to time. With the actual military of whatever city being attacked being able to do things like tell the mages the optimal way to overlap spell effects for maximum coverage and other bits of tactics they might not think of, i figure the training gap wont be much of a factor if at all.

[Vinyadan]

Spoiler

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Symbol of Insanity would catch at most one person, the first person to become aware of it. The rest of the patrol would almost immediately notice their friend acting weird, and respond appropriately, in this case moving away from the symbol.

The big thing is that soldiers are in constant communication with each other and their FOB. They don't just wander off to go look at something weird, or pet a bunny or anything. If they saw a sign up on the road, they would radio in about the sign (at a distance further than the symbol could activate). When they got close, one person would take pictures of the sign to send back to base. That would drive him insane, and the rest of the patrol would catch that. Actually that might get one or two more soldiers if they instinctively looked at it to try and shoot it, but the rest of the squad would catch on, close their eyes, and likely run the symbol over with their LAV.

Anyways, the big assumption you are making is that the military doesn't scout. They do, constantly. At best, it would take out a single patrol (so 6 people), at worst it would take out 1. In the best case scenario, the military would still figure out the sign was responsible, because A) even insane you act normally every now and then, and b)the last thing they radio'd in was that they were coming up on the sign. Even if they did cast force cage on it, it would be pretty easy to disable, just get one solider to toss a blanket over it, and then wrap it up better later.


Elephants is kinda a bad example because that is very much not a modern military. Also basically anything example in history you can think of means that it won't cause a panic today. The military learns from what happened in the past.

How would that work, practically? If you want to advance the whole battalion, do you need scouts to walk the whole distance? Or do you just send a car (or more) forward? Both? In this scenario, the road crosses a forest. Would it be indispensable to send footmen in the forest?

If you need footmen to scout the way, then this whole experiment makes very little sense, since the unit as a whole already would move at walking speed (I mean, they couldn't just send out a drone, spot a city, and ride towards it at full speed).

A wizard capable of lvl 8 spells would then be better off killing the scouts with low level spells while under greater invisibility and overland flight. He could even cast dancing lights and pretend that they are the attackers. Invisibility explicitly blocks darkvision, also known as infravision, which depending on which article you choose is or isn't the same of infrared vision. Scouts would either start using infrared (if it works), possibly killing him (deflect arrows works on ranged attacks in general, but that could be a lot of bullets) or report that they are under attack and cannot effectively return fire.

I don't know what the battalion would then do. Move in a larger squad to punch through/rescue team, or look for a different way?

However, there are a few things where I don't agree. If they saw the sign, they would be already within the 60 foot radius (unless they are using instruments to look at it from afar). If they saw it while in a car, and there were more than one person in the car, everyone in the car would almost certainly fall under its effect: it's unlikely that they could stop the car in such a short distance and time to avoid fully entering the range.

Looking more closely at the stat block, I'm not sure that covering the symbol with a blanket would stop it from working, because total cover (described as capable of making attacks impossible) is necessary for that (it's a burst). I wonder if the windshield would provide it; it could just provide AC, or block the spell altogether; but I doubt a blanket would. More importantly, I don't think that closing your eyes protects from symbols. The symbol needs to be looked at, read, touched, or passed over or under (if it's on a gate) to be triggered, but, once it's triggered, it will dish out its effects on everyone in its range who doesn't have total cover.

The description of symbol of death (which is used as the example of how symbol of insanity works) states "Throwing a cover over a symbol of death to render it inoperative triggers it if the symbol reacts to touch", which I assume means it works through blankets; however, it also says "Covering or hiding the rune renders the symbol of death ineffective, unless a creature removes the covering, in which case the symbol of death works normally", which may be contradictory, or simply mean that covering the symbol triggers it but also renders it ineffective; maybe some DMs can share their ruling ).
To be honest, I find this spell a bit too complicated for my taste.

[pendell]

Looking more closely at the stat block, I'm not sure that covering the symbol with a blanket would stop it from working, because total cover (described as capable of making attacks impossible) is necessary for that (it's a burst). I wonder if the windshield would provide it; it could just provide AC, or block the spell altogether; but I doubt a blanket would. More importantly, I don't think that closing your eyes protects from symbols. The symbol needs to be looked at, read, touched, or passed over or under (if it's on a gate) to be triggered, but, once it's triggered, it will dish out its effects on everyone in its range who doesn't have total cover.

After the first time they encounter the trap, such a device will be considered just another form of landmine , probably disposed of by rolling a treaded drone up to it and knocking it over. Once triggered, it vents its payload on nothing. The drone doesn't notice.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Forum Explorer]

How would that work, practically? If you want to advance the whole battalion, do you need scouts to walk the whole distance? Or do you just send a car (or more) forward? Both? In this scenario, the road crosses a forest. Would it be indispensable to send footmen in the forest?

If you need footmen to scout the way, then this whole experiment makes very little sense, since the unit as a whole already would move at walking speed (I mean, they couldn't just send out a drone, spot a city, and ride towards it at full speed).

A wizard capable of lvl 8 spells would then be better off killing the scouts with low level spells while under greater invisibility and overland flight. He could even cast dancing lights and pretend that they are the attackers. Invisibility explicitly blocks darkvision, also known as infravision, which depending on which article you choose is or isn't the same of infrared vision. Scouts would either start using infrared (if it works), possibly killing him (deflect arrows works on ranged attacks in general, but that could be a lot of bullets) or report that they are under attack and cannot effectively return fire.

I don't know what the battalion would then do. Move in a larger squad to punch through/rescue team, or look for a different way?

However, there are a few things where I don't agree. If they saw the sign, they would be already within the 60 foot radius (unless they are using instruments to look at it from afar). If they saw it while in a car, and there were more than one person in the car, everyone in the car would almost certainly fall under its effect: it's unlikely that they could stop the car in such a short distance and time to avoid fully entering the range.

Looking more closely at the stat block, I'm not sure that covering the symbol with a blanket would stop it from working, because total cover (described as capable of making attacks impossible) is necessary for that (it's a burst). I wonder if the windshield would provide it; it could just provide AC, or block the spell altogether; but I doubt a blanket would. More importantly, I don't think that closing your eyes protects from symbols. The symbol needs to be looked at, read, touched, or passed over or under (if it's on a gate) to be triggered, but, once it's triggered, it will dish out its effects on everyone in its range who doesn't have total cover.

The description of symbol of death (which is used as the example of how symbol of insanity works) states "Throwing a cover over a symbol of death to render it inoperative triggers it if the symbol reacts to touch", which I assume means it works through blankets; however, it also says "Covering or hiding the rune renders the symbol of death ineffective, unless a creature removes the covering, in which case the symbol of death works normally", which may be contradictory, or simply mean that covering the symbol triggers it but also renders it ineffective; maybe some DMs can share their ruling ).
To be honest, I find this spell a bit too complicated for my taste.

Basically you don't move the battalion blind and you don't move it all at once. It would work like this: Initially drones would be used to get an idea of the landscape around them. So how dense a forest is, where trails/roads are, what rivers are there, and the like. This would likely also find monsters so they would be warned about that.

Next would be sending scouts in LAVs. If there is a road through a forest, they'd likely take it. If there isn't, they'd likely just go around it, particularly after spotting monsters, because they'd want as much warning as possible to make the most use of their range. Unless the forest is really massive, military vehicles can travel far enough fast enough that going around wouldn't actually slow them down by that much. The only reason to actually go into the forest is if the drone spots something interesting like an outpost, or if the forest is so massive they can't reasonably go around it. A LAV is rated to be able to drive through a forest, which would basically be going along a deer trail, or a stream. Before entering the forest, the squad sent would likely bring along a chainsaw or some other equipment to take down obstacles. But that's only really in the case where there isn't a road. This isn't the exploring Chult, so there would be.

In case of the road, the scouting force would just drive down it, and would report any landmarks that they see as they go. Such as signs, bridges, ect. Since there are monsters in the woods, they also likely be focusing on the woods around them to try and prevent themselves from being ambushed.

Once the officers decide to move the whole battalion somewhere, they would initially again, send out a single LAV to scout and ensure that they can still get through. If they get through to the location, a couple of trucks would go next with the gear to begin setting up defenses at the new FOB. Once those initial defenses had been set up, then the whole battalion would be sent.

If a scout doesn't get through, ie killed by flying wizard, they would send reinforcements, but more importantly, they (and the squad under attack) would send out anything possible to try and get eyes on the attacker. In this case, drones. That would give them eyes on what the wizard is actually doing. Considering that Greater invisibility only lasts 1 round/level, I doubt that the spell would actually last the entire encounter. After all, the LAV itself is pretty resilient. A low level spell like a fire ball isn't going to do anything to it, nor the people inside of it. For that matter, fireball wouldn't be a death sentence for any solider caught in the blast. Current military gear does protect against heat, and the fire only lasts for at most 3 seconds.

The big thing is that the soldiers would hear the wizard chanting. That would give them important information in that there is someone attacking them, not just a random monster, or the like. After that? They would likely retreat. Slam the LAV into reverse and just go backwards. The wizards wouldn't be able to keep up and I don't think a level 8 wizard has anything that could stop a LAV. Actually the lowest level spell that I think could do anything to a LAV is wall of force, which isn't invisible, so the LAV could just go around it.

If we are talking a level 15 Wizard, than yeah, they have a lot more options. That's still only 90 seconds of Invisibility though, less really, because they'd be invisible before the LAV arrives. So that's 15 spells they can cast before they go visible. They would need to use high level spells to crack open the LAV first, which admittedly, they could do. It would just be what combination would work best.

As for the symbol of insanity, of course they'd be using instruments to look at it initially. They would be looking at everything with instruments. In that case though, yes, the glass would provide total cover. Maybe not normal glass, but the material used in bullet proof glass basically makes it a transparent wall. If a tower shield can provide total cover, bullet proof glass certainly would. In which case the symbol would likely do nothing. They would drive up to it, read it (activating it), take pictures of it, and then leave.

I would rule covering it with a blanket to cause one activation of it. So in the case of a Permanent Symbol of Insanity it would then be safe for everyone else to cross the sign and even destroy the symbol, but whoever initially put the blanket over the symbol would get hit.

The big problem of the ambushing wizard is one of intelligence. It assumes the wizard both knows exactly where and when the patrol will go by, and that the military has literally no knowledge of magic. Because it won't take long for the military to make contact with friendly locals, and begin learning stuff like wizards can go invisible or have to chant to cast magic. Because bribing the locals to help you is a proud military tradition.

[Seppl]

Just to throw in another thing that has not yet been mentioned: The modern military would be quite adapt at using camouflage. That might sound funny to anyone who only knows soldiers from seeing them on city streets, but it is actually quite difficult to spot both soldiers and military eqipment in natural terrain, when they do not want to be seen. This level of stealth from a human army is yet another thing that is a complete (and probably costly) surprise to any non-adventuring Faerunian, and even when they understand that their enemies are very good at hiding, there are no non-magical ways to get around that. Meanwhile, only magic users or specialists from the Faerun side could match (or even surpass) this level of stealth, whereas any regular troops are easily spotted.

[pendell]

Just to throw in another thing that has not yet been mentioned: The modern military would be quite adapt at using camouflage. That might sound funny to anyone who only knows soldiers from seeing them on city streets, but it is actually quite difficult to spot both soldiers and military eqipment in natural terrain, when they do not want to be seen. This level of stealth from a human army is yet another thing that is a complete (and probably costly) surprise to any non-adventuring Faerunian, and even when they understand that their enemies are very good at hiding, there are no non-magical ways to get around that. Meanwhile, only magic users or specialists from the Faerun side could match (or even surpass) this level of stealth, whereas any regular troops are easily spotted.

Medieval and ancient world had an equivalent who had those skills: Skirmishers . These lightly-armed troops fanned out ahead of the main body both to find the enemy, to harass them, and to protect the main body from surprise attack. Their tactics were very similar to those used by modern infantry, except, of course, they used pre-gunpowder weapons. Spears, javelins, arrows, daggers and the like.

I wouldn't particularly enjoy fighting against skirmishing elves in wooded terrain. In dense forest, the line-of-sight for a rifle is pretty minimal and it's easy for someone to Metal Gear up on you with a knife or such like.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Seppl]

I wouldn't particularly enjoy fighting against skirmishing elves in wooded terrain. In dense forest, the line-of-sight for a rifle is pretty minimal and it's easy for someone to Metal Gear up on you with a knife or such like.

We never hear about Faerunians using this in any book or story, except when it's the odd ranger or when it is the quirk of an entire civilization (you mentioned wood elves). The former is quite rare in a city, and the latter non-existant unless this is an elven city.

[Liquor Box]

You won’t ever make contact with a hummingbird like that. The sports balls you mention don’t have eyes, brains or independent flight, and one way or another the sports balls are meant to be caught, so that’s a poor analogy.

You don’t seem to have spent much time with hummingbirds. Their fine control and maneuverability is immensely greater than you’re giving them credit for. The bird won’t be “crashing” into anything.

Well the premise that you seemed to be advancing was that the hummingbird would dive in at 50km/h to peck (without slowing just as it gets swiping range), so I answered by pointing out that that humans can catch and hit faster things.

Now the premise seems to be that the hummingbird can simply dodge around. Now I know they're agile, but I'll need more than a bald assertion that "you wont ever make contact with a hummingbird".

Hummingbirds are caught in flight by cats, other birds, and frogs. I appreciate that all those animals have faster reflexes than humans, but I don't believe that a human would have no chance. If a human can grab in 1/4 times, then that's the risk the wizard is taking.

Having googled your example city, I see it is in colder climes. As such the soldiers would tend to warmly dressed even when not in their body armour - probably only the face would be exposed. Even if a human may be only 1/4 chance to catch the bird, I think they are very likely to be able to simply fend it away.

If you disagree, I suggest we may not be able to resolve that disagreement without a source (or a DM), so we may have to agree to disagree.

Of course it doesn’t. There’s no reason why druids can’t draw on information from animals in the region alongside other sources as described. They're not mutually exclusive.

Not that they can't or their mutually exclusive. Just a question of why would they bother to expend resources scouting so frequently and extensively if you had a web of informants throughout the countryside.

Whether they can or not depends on whether the animals would have the mental capacity to understand what is and is not a risk, whether they'd rush to tell a druid if they did (does the druid routinely visit their territory - many animals don't leave it), are there any druids in the city, do they regularly cast speak with animals just in case the animals have news (and if so, how do they know which animals to talk to)? As you have been discussing with others, just because something is mechanically possible, doesn't mean that it is going to happen in reality. Whether the city would quickly be informed of any strange goings on involves speculation on a variety of things that I suspect you and I will not be able to agree on.

Is there anything in the published literature about the setting that suggests that cities routinely rely on animal informants for news of hostile forces in the area?

And by the same token, it will be equally difficult for a soldier from another world to infiltrate a city unlike anything he’s ever seen before. The example with the fingers is a good one, and there are probably many little mistakes the soldier would be making—all of which would do the one thing he doesn’t want, which is to draw attention to himself.

Possibly. My initial statement was that i didn't think infiltrating the military would be much easier. They may be similarly difficult.

Infiltrating the military is difficult because they are a tight nit group, each of whom know a significant portion of the rest of the battalion, who are a military unit (so will have protocols like IDs and passcodes in place). It's a tougher challenge for the locals to overcome (despite their magic)

On the other hand a city has thousands of people who are (and act) very different from one another, don't typically check people on entry. But as you point out, the challenge with infiltrating the city, or at least benefitting from that infiltration, is the lack of language skills.

On which side the advantage lies - I'm not sure.

If we use the Luxemburg example, then the soldiers will have 80 armored cars. Yup, those will certainly blend right in. Especially if they're traveling on local roads, where they'll be seen by all the local people using those roads.

Or are you suggesting this battalion is entirely on foot, with no vehicles whatsoever?

I don't think Luxemburg is a good example, because it is unusual in that the battalion is basically their entire army.

I had been assuming and American battalion (although I am not American), mostly because it is what most people here are probably most familiar with. But I suspect most large well resourced countries have similar militaries.

Anyway, whichever we choose, I am sure they have at least as any vehicles as you mention and probably a lot more.

Where we differ is that I don't envisage them crashing around the countryside like you do. I think they arrive, find a place to establish their camp (not within sight of a road). They then camoflauge their camp with the netting they use (including over their vehicles). Unless someone is travelling cross country and stumble across the camp, they probably wont see it (and unless they are stealthy the military will see them first and may kill them). The military force would then not drive around in their vehicles - instead they would conduct reconnasaince with their drones, perhaps venturing out on foot. They probably wont use their vehicles at all until they decide to attack - and then they will move faster than any animal or scout likely to report on them will move.

It would help if you gave the names and designations of the drones you’re referencing. I’m thinking of drones like the RQ-11 Raven, which are operated at the company level and more likely to be included in a single battalion. We can stretch it to include the RQ-7 Shadow, but anything larger than that probably wouldn’t be included with just one battalion.

The stats I gave were from the Shadow. You are right, there are larger ones, but a battalion wont have one, unless they are given one one for a particular reason (like this invasion).

Note also that drones can encounter significant problems with adverse weather, which will be a factor whether or not anyone is actively controlling it.

You are right, the Shadow doesn't operate in bad weather. The Raven does though. So if the military force is more than 5km away (which I think they probably would be), they wouldn't be able to observe the city in bad weather.

I’ve had one of the smaller ones flying above me and they are extremely easy to detect, thanks to the loud buzzing whine. Larger drones like the Predator have engines designed for quiet operation, but they’re usually flying much higher.

Also, in this case, note the large metal launcher used to send up the Shadow. I doubt if the guys operating this are trying to stay concealed, and good luck hiding that launcher.

Good video. I agree they are not stealthy on take off. But they will be taking off from 50km or so away from the city.

When I said they'd be hard to detect, I meant when they are in flight, 4km up. Your video does demonstrate that. at 42 seconds, after the drone is aloft, the sound is already fading, and the drone is clearly much less than 1km away.

I don't think your experience of having an ordinary drone buzzing around just over head (i'm going to guess less than 50 meters) is comparable to a military drone 4km overhead.

Excellent examples, and I should’ve thought of the elephants.

Those are especially apt as an example of large monstrosities which soldiers have never faced before. Now, I don’t think modern soldiers would scream and run—but I do think that in the very first contact with xorn, thoqquas, etc., they would be terrified and unable to respond effectively. They would certainly adapt as you describe, but the initial losses could be substantial, which would be a major concern for a single battalion.

A bit of a difference though. No doubt the first time the romans saw elephants they tried shooting them (or launching their javalins at them), but that proved ineffective - as such the elephants were terrifying until the romans figured creative ways to counter them. If the soldier's primary form of defence against the xorn (or whatever) worked, which is of course shooting them, they are unlikely to be so terrifying (but still frightning).

Where will the city get this army of xorn or thoqquas?

[Vinyadan]

I've been looking at other spells, mostly for silly purposes. Arcane lock on the vehicle doors, for example. Or casting hypnotic pattern and, while the men are distracted, casting shrink item on some vehicle part, like a wheel or the exhaust tube.

Using reduce person on the soldiers would probably be something absolutely new for any military. Bewildering the first time they see it, but they would still be able to use guns, and they would quickly realise that it doesn't last very long, unless it's permanencied.

[Forum Explorer]

I've been looking at other spells, mostly for silly purposes. Arcane lock on the vehicle doors, for example. Or casting hypnotic pattern and, while the men are distracted, casting shrink item on some vehicle part, like a wheel or the exhaust tube.

Using reduce person on the soldiers would probably be something absolutely new for any military. Bewildering the first time they see it, but they would still be able to use guns, and they would quickly realise that it doesn't last very long, unless it's permanencied.

Shrink item wouldn't work. A LAV is one object. You need to shrink the entire object, not just a part of it. Also it breaks by toss the object in question onto the ground, so it's pretty easy to dispel, even by accident.

[Jeivar]

OP here.

Someone contacted me and asked me to clarify the details of the scenario. My clarification is that I don't have details, as such. I don't know a whole lot about real-life military operations or the big cities or upper-level spellcasters of Faerun. Distance from the city, the point of the fight, the motivations, the prior knowledge, the exact equipment of the Earth soldiers... I don't want a particular question answered, I just wanted to spark a general debate and this thread certainly is going strong without me adding qualifications. Role-playing is about creating various scenarios, after all.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone
Another thought occurred to me last night. Aren't we pitting a trained military force against what are essentially civilians? Even if the civilians have magic, won't they react as poorly to the Out of Context Problem that is the attackers, as the troops will against magical threats?

Originally Posted by pendell
If we suppose mages of lesser rank or experience, they would still be better prepared than modern soldiers since part of their apprenticeship should be both other planes and extraplanar beings. Theoretical knowledge and potentially some practical knowledge also.

Many mages will probably have equal or greater combat experience than the invading soldiers, against a far broader variety of foes. Their studies on arcana and the planes will certainly have taught them a great deal about dangerous creatures both on Faerûn and from other planes.

The modern soldiers will likely come across actual civilians—farmers, trappers, merchants, herders, pilgrims and more—but mages are essentially combat specialists in their own right.

Originally Posted by pendell
Medieval and ancient world had an equivalent who had those skills: Skirmishers.

…I wouldn't particularly enjoy fighting against skirmishing elves in wooded terrain.

This is another point that hasn’t really been touched on—the diversity of races which the modern soldiers will encounter.

The modern soldiers will be recognizably human, and the defenders will have an idea of what to expect in terms of physical capability. But the modern soldiers—assuming no prior intel—will have never seen a halfling, an elf, or a half-orc before, to say nothing of less common sentient races.

Now, I’m not saying that the modern soldiers will have a case of monster psychosis (to coin a phrase) on seeing any of these for the first time. But they won’t know the extent of their abilities, which will be a disadvantage on its own.

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
They probably wont use their vehicles at all until they decide to attack - and then they will move faster than any animal or scout likely to report on them will move.

Do you have exact figures for how fast the vehicles would be moving?

Because that would be an interesting comparison. Scouts on foot would certainly be outpaced, but a vehicle column vs. flying creature is worth comparing in detail.

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
Hummingbirds are caught in flight by cats, other birds, and frogs.

Cat predation on hummingbirds is extremely rare, and that by other vertebrates even more so, with the exception of some Neotropical falcons. Most of the incidents on record are corner cases in which the hummies were probably taken unawares and/or had some other contributing factor.

I’ve spent a lot of time watching hummingbirds at close range, so I have a great deal of respect for their capabilities. But rather than argue their maneuverability, we can simply work with a slightly different scenario.

Looking at the description for Contagion, it doesn’t actually specify the need to contact bare skin. In that case, bundled or not, any contact should activate the spell. In that case, we can wait until a scout or sentry is within range. A druid in hummingbird form can glide in from behind, make physical contact (“creature touched”) with the sentry’s back, and then leave at full speed. The sentry probably wouldn’t even feel it, and even if he heard a receding hum, he’s not likely to spot it.

We can substitute a bat or an owl for a nighttime sentry-tap if you like.

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
Whether they can or not depends on whether the animals would have the mental capacity to understand what is and is not a risk….

Assessing risk isn’t really the issue, though. It’s simply a question of seeing large, noisy shapes like nothing they’ve ever seen before, growling and belching fumes, attended by humans like they’ve never seen before.

I can’t emphasize how exceptional this is. No one has seen anything like this before. Something large, noisy, foreign and frightening? That’s information worth sharing.

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
Infiltrating the military is difficult because they are a tight nit group, each of whom know a significant portion of the rest of the battalion, who are a military unit (so will have protocols like IDs and passcodes in place). It's a tougher challenge for the locals to overcome (despite their magic)

On the other hand a city has thousands of people who are (and act) very different from one another, don't typically check people on entry. But as you point out, the challenge with infiltrating the city, or at least benefitting from that infiltration, is the lack of language skills.

All good points, and it does seem much harder for someone to infiltrate the invading battalion than for a modern soldier to infiltrate the city. Disguise and other illusions can’t compensate for passcodes, especially in an unfamiliar language.

It still might be possible to gain a couple of minutes to walk through part of the camp or the formation, but the moment someone speaks to them that gig will be over. The soldier in the city, by contrast, will probably have much longer to look around before someone grows suspicious, several hours if not a full day or two.

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
I don't think your experience of having an ordinary drone buzzing around just over head (i'm going to guess less than 50 meters) is comparable to a military drone 4km overhead.

Maybe I wasn’t clear, but my experience was with a military drone.

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
Where will the city get this army of xorn or thoqquas?

I never said “army,” just used them as examples of grotesque and otherworldly creatures.

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
[The battalion will be] 50km or so away from the city.

Something else we haven’t mentioned yet is the likelihood of the battalion encountering other creatures beside the city defenders. The deeper they are in the wilderness, the more likely they are to have initial encounters with a whole slew of other things.

This may have any number of effects, with the most obvious being a rapid realization that this world has bizarre and dangerous monsters. That could serve to reduce the shock of first contact with deliberately summoned creatures, but it may also result in some early fatalities for the battalion.

But it also means they’ll be seen by many more eyes than simply animals, which means a greater chance for news of their arrival to spread far and wide.

.

[Tvtyrant]

On the subject of magical diseases, I think normal diseases would be a catastrophe of unmatched proportions regardless. Two planets with the same species but completely distinct histories? Even the grass is going to die out to grass viruses and bacteria that the other planet doesn't have. Nearly every life form on Earth and Faerun are going to see complete population collapses, possibly mass extinctions from trading diseases they have no resistance to.

The magic people have cure disease, but they can't possibly even cover the sentient life much less the animals and plants. Think if there were thousands of covid viruses at once per species.

[Elbeyon]

On the subject of magical diseases, I think normal diseases would be a catastrophe of unmatched proportions regardless. Two planets with the same species but completely distinct histories? Even the grass is going to die out to grass viruses and bacteria that the other planet doesn't have. Nearly every life form on Earth and Faerun are going to see complete population collapses, possibly mass extinctions from trading diseases they have no resistance to.

The magic people have cure disease, but they can't possibly even cover the sentient life much less the animals and plants. Think if there were thousands of covid viruses at once per species.

Faerun might have an advantage here. This would not be the first time Faerun has encountered creatures from other planes. Hell. Heaven. Limbo. Feywild. Material Planes. Spelljammers traveling across the crystal spheres. Heck, we know that people from Faerun have been to earth and returned back to Faerun.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Tvtyrant
Nearly every life form on Earth and Faerun are going to see complete population collapses, possibly mass extinctions from trading diseases they have no resistance to.

Originally Posted by Elbeyon
Faerun might have an advantage here. This would not be the first time Faerun has encountered creatures from other planes. Hell. Heaven. Limbo. Feywild. Material Planes. Spelljammers traveling across the crystal spheres. Heck, we know that people from Faerun have been to earth and returned back to Faerun.

Plus the forebears of the Mulhorandi people, the Mulan, who were brought from another world (presumably Earth) four thousand years ago. They would have brought earlier strains of Earthly diseases, as well as the genes for adaptive immune responses to those diseases.

Also, orcs were portaled in from their world about a thousand years later, so Faerûn has probably already survived a number of major diseases from that as well. (Just think, the Orc Flu.)

So I think it’s likely that there would be some novel strains passed back and forth between the invaders and the invaded, but not complete ecosystem collapse or mass extinction.

[Liquor Box]

Many mages will probably have equal or greater combat experience than the invading soldiers, against a far broader variety of foes. Their studies on arcana and the planes will certainly have taught them a great deal about dangerous creatures both on Faerûn and from other planes.

The modern soldiers will likely come across actual civilians—farmers, trappers, merchants, herders, pilgrims and more—but mages are essentially combat specialists in their own right.

Some are, but not all mages frequently engage in combat do they?

This is another point that hasn’t really been touched on—the diversity of races which the modern soldiers will encounter.

The modern soldiers will be recognizably human, and the defenders will have an idea of what to expect in terms of physical capability. But the modern soldiers—assuming no prior intel—will have never seen a halfling, an elf, or a half-orc before, to say nothing of less common sentient races.

Now, IÂ’m not saying that the modern soldiers will have a case of monster psychosis (to coin a phrase) on seeing any of these for the first time. But they wonÂ’t know the extent of their abilities, which will be a disadvantage on its own.

What races that you live in ordinary cities would have relevant special abilities.

I can think of one scenario (although good reconnasiance may help). One advantage the earthlings will have is their ability to fight at night using infrared and thermal imaging. That's pretty big combat advantage. But that some of the inhabitants can also see at night mitigates that disadvantage a bit.

Do you have exact figures for how fast the vehicles would be moving?

Because that would be an interesting comparison. Scouts on foot would certainly be outpaced, but a vehicle column vs. flying creature is worth comparing in detail.

No, I don't. If they have tracked vehicles (I think so) then 50km/h over most terrains. Otherwise 100km/h on easy terrain and slower over rough terrain.

I suppose the vehicles may not go in a straight line and the bird might (if indeed the bird's first instinct was to fly directly to the human city as fast as it can, which I doubt). It depends what type of bird, and whether they fly that fast, and whether it has the endurance to keep going. Also whether the soldiers shoot it (which they may if the Faeruners had tried their hummingbird trick, or if the earthlings had otherwise seen animals behaving oddly).

Cat predation on hummingbirds is extremely rare, and that by other vertebrates even more so, with the exception of some Neotropical falcons. Most of the incidents on record are corner cases in which the hummies were probably taken unawares and/or had some other contributing factor.

No, it's not rare or corner cases:
"Cats, both domestic and feral, are probably the most common predators of non-nested hummingbirds. Reports to the Society come in regularly, for example, of people whose cats carry a hummingbird in their mouth--sometimes dead, sometimes not."
https://www.hummingbirdsociety.org/predators/

Nor is it just when the bird is taken unaware
"On one occasion, our cat, as usual, followed her up the hillside at which time a hummingbird “buzzed” our cat which was a major mistake because he immediately reached out his paw and caught the hummingbird with one fierce swoop out of the air and straight into his mouth."
https://hummingbirdbliss.com/10-comm...-hummingbirds/

Looking at the description for Contagion, it doesn’t actually specify the need to contact bare skin. In that case, bundled or not, any contact should activate the spell. In that case, we can wait until a scout or sentry is within range. A druid in hummingbird form can glide in from behind, make physical contact (“creature touched”) with the sentry’s back, and then leave at full speed. The sentry probably wouldn’t even feel it, and even if he heard a receding hum, he’s not likely to spot it.

We can substitute a bat or an owl for a nighttime sentry-tap if you like.

The description says "Target: Living creature touched". A jacket is not a living creature. If that is not the rules interpretation, this is a case where D&D rules conflicts with real world rules - and an occasion where it's sensible to have real world rules prevail.

Night would make it easier for the earthlings I think, because the sentry would have nightvision equipment, which would make it easier to see the bird than daylight.

Assessing risk isnÂ’t really the issue, though. ItÂ’s simply a question of seeing large, noisy shapes like nothing theyÂ’ve ever seen before, growling and belching fumes, attended by humans like theyÂ’ve never seen before.

I canÂ’t emphasize how exceptional this is. No one has seen anything like this before. Something large, noisy, foreign and frightening? ThatÂ’s information worth sharing.

Aren't unusual sights more common on Faerun? I thought that was a point you'd made earlier.

Anyway, it may be unusual, but that doesn't mean its an invading force. And I don't think the natural reaction of an animal on seeing something exceptional is to go off and tell a human. I mean does the animal know a human? Does the (probably one) druid in the area know every single animal within 50km? It all seems incredibly unlikely to me.

Maybe I wasnÂ’t clear, but my experience was with a military drone.

Ah, ok. How many kilometers above you would you say it was?

I never said “army,” just used them as examples of grotesque and otherworldly creatures.

Right, so we are talking about one or two? That would seem less scary than lots. The first time romans saw an army of elephants would have been different from the first time european explorers say a wild elephant in africa.

Something else we havenÂ’t mentioned yet is the likelihood of the battalion encountering other creatures beside the city defenders. The deeper they are in the wilderness, the more likely they are to have initial encounters with a whole slew of other things.

This may have any number of effects, with the most obvious being a rapid realization that this world has bizarre and dangerous monsters. That could serve to reduce the shock of first contact with deliberately summoned creatures, but it may also result in some early fatalities for the battalion.

But it also means theyÂ’ll be seen by many more eyes than simply animals, which means a greater chance for news of their arrival to spread far and wide.

.

You have a city in mind, and I assume they have wandering monster charts (not keyed to EL). I'm going to guess that not many can take on an infantry battalion.

Otherwise I think you're right. It's a tradeoff between getting detected and learning more about the local inhabitants.

[Friv]

The description says "Target: Living creature touched". A jacket is not a living creature. If that is not the rules interpretation, this is a case where D&D rules conflicts with real world rules - and an occasion where it's sensible to have real world rules prevail.

D&D magic pretty much always assumes that touch effects work through clothing. Otherwise, armor would block a touch attack, which is doesn't, and it would be impossible to cast touch spells on people wearing full armor and helmets.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
…not all mages frequently engage in combat do they?

The number and level of mages I’ve been quoting for Silverymoon is drawn from the Spellguard, the arcane defenders of the city. They are by definition experienced combatants and they fight alongside the Knights in Silver.

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
It depends what type of bird, and whether they fly that fast, and whether it has the endurance to keep going.

Blackpoll warblers can fly 1900 miles nonstop in 2-3 days, over open ocean, at an average speed of 27 mph. Their breeding habitat is exactly the sort of boreal forest that’s common in the Silver Marches, so it’s reasonable to assume they’re present.

As for their willingness, Animal Messenger is designed for this sort of thing, and that’s what I’ve been assuming here.

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
If they have tracked vehicles (I think so) then 50km/h over most terrains. Otherwise 100km/h on easy terrain and slower over rough terrain.

The M113 APC has a maximum speed of 42 mph; the Bradley is a little slower at 35 mph. The question is whether that’s their cruising speed through rough terrain. The M2 is listed with an off-road speed of 25 mph, which is neck-and-neck with the blackpoll.

So the blackpoll is roughly equivalent, if the tracked vehicles are running off-road, which is very situational. Running on local roads might allow them to move faster, but the local roads may not be the most direct route, whereas the bird will be flying directly to its destination. It comes down to the details of the situation, but the blackpoll is certainly competitive.

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
*hummingbird quotes*

Those are from hobbyist websites who don’t collect or analyze their own data, and who have a vested interest in making outdoor cats seem as villainous as possible. “Reports” from “people” are unverified and have zero scientific value.

Research by actual scientists demonstrates cat predation does occur, but is extremely minor compared to other forms of mortality. Countless hummingbirds die on annual migration, and loss of habitat in both the Nearctic and Neotropics has a tremendous impact on many species.

In the U.S., window strikes have a far greater impact on hummingbird populations than any incidental predation by vertebrates. There are some Neotropical raptors that feed on hummingbirds, but these are highly specialized aerial predators, and there’s no comparison with a human standing on the ground just waving his arms around.

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
The description says "Target: Living creature touched". A jacket is not a living creature.

From Touch Attacks, p. 136 of the PHB: “Some attacks disregard armor, including shields and natural armor. For instance, a wizard’s touch with a shocking grasp spell hurts you regardless of what armor you’re wearing or how thick your skin happens to be.”

If we’re using magic at all in this scenario, then we need to follow all the rules associated with it—in whatever edition is selected—rather than selectively replacing them with “real world rules.”

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
And I don't think the natural reaction of an animal on seeing something exceptional is to go off and tell a human. I mean does the animal know a human? Does the (probably one) druid in the area know every single animal within 50km?

I think we simply have different visions of druids. I see druids as actively engaged in the living landscape, immersed in the lives of the creatures around them and speaking with them as readily as villagers speak with their neighbors. I see druids as intelligent, perceptive, and attentive to the natural world. I see druids as knowing individual animals and their descendants, following them for generation after generation through the years and decades. I see druids as constantly exchanging information with animals, about their doings and their environment and everything that affects them.

I’m not sure exactly what you see druids doing, but it doesn’t seem to be any of the above.

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
You have a city in mind, and I assume they have wandering monster charts (not keyed to EL). I'm going to guess that not many can take on an infantry battalion.

The entire battalion, no, but scouts and patrols, absolutely. A spectral panther could take out a recon squad in moments, and I’m not sure how they’d fight a creature that can attack while incorporeal.

.

[Forum Explorer]

I think we simply have different visions of druids. I see druids as actively engaged in the living landscape, immersed in the lives of the creatures around them and speaking with them as readily as villagers speak with their neighbors. I see druids as intelligent, perceptive, and attentive to the natural world. I see druids as knowing individual animals and their descendants, following them for generation after generation through the years and decades. I see druids as constantly exchanging information with animals, about their doings and their environment and everything that affects them.

I’m not sure exactly what you see druids doing, but it doesn’t seem to be any of the above.

My big thing with the druid assumption is that druids don't typically come to the aid of cities. Considering modern armies have much less impact on the environment than medieval ones, what is their motive for helping?

Also animals are kinda dumb, and won't really understand what they are looking at or even necessarily care. Take a hawk or a songbird for example. An army isn't really a threat to them, so while they may be startled by a LAV driving by, they'll forget about it minutes later. A rabbit on the other hand is...also not threatened by the army. Again, startled and scared away, but even if they did run to a druid, all they'd be able to report is 'loud noise' and maybe 'green'. The concept of a vehicle won't mean anything to a wild rabbit. Neither will metal for that matter, not painted metal anyways.

And lets be honest here, fantasy world forests are full of dangers, besides the normal predators. The modern army is designed to be as self sufficient as possible, and as a result has much less impact than, say, a green dragon going for a walk. A songbird will be much more concerned about the raccoon trying to eat its eggs, than soldiers driving by. Even more intelligent animals like wolves or bears wouldn't give much better than 'a bunch of humans went through our territory today.'

Unless they are so deep in the wilderness they actually have to blaze a trail through, I can't see the army's passage as actually being noteworthy to druids, not unless they happened to see the army in person.

[Vinyadan]

It depends on how much the druids care for the undergrowth, or the animals being unwittingly scared away from their homes. There also may be sacred streams, trees, or glades that locals avoid and whose violation means becoming a target as long as you are in the wood.

About fireballs, I took a look at the spell description. They melt gold and copper, which melt above 1000°C. I don't know if they just melt all gold, copper, silver, lead etc. in their range, but that's a lot of heat, especially because it's instantaneous. I suspect it would at the very least deform any equipment, not to say anything about electronics.

[Forum Explorer]

It depends on how much the druids care for the undergrowth, or the animals being unwittingly scared away from their homes. There also may be sacred streams, trees, or glades that locals avoid and whose violation means becoming a target as long as you are in the wood.

About fireballs, I took a look at the spell description. They melt gold and copper, which melt above 1000°C. I don't know if they just melt all gold, copper, silver, lead etc. in their range, but that's a lot of heat, especially because it's instantaneous. I suspect it would at the very least deform any equipment, not to say anything about electronics.

Unless the gold is in your pocket, in which case it won't. Your pocket won't be harmed either. The direct mechanics of fireball do not translate well to reality.

[Liquor Box]

The number and level of mages IÂ’ve been quoting for Silverymoon is drawn from the Spellguard, the arcane defenders of the city. They are by definition experienced combatants and they fight alongside the Knights in Silver.

Yes, that's fair enough, if they are part of a combat unit.

Blackpoll warblers can fly 1900 miles nonstop in 2-3 days, over open ocean, at an average speed of 27 mph. Their breeding habitat is exactly the sort of boreal forest thatÂ’s common in the Silver Marches, so itÂ’s reasonable to assume theyÂ’re present.

As for their willingness, Animal Messenger is designed for this sort of thing, and thatÂ’s what IÂ’ve been assuming here.

That assumes a druid is actively monitoring them and has a bird to hand though. So they would have to have locate the camp (certainly possible), be watching it (risky (including in animal form), the soldiers will have good perception skills, and detection equipment the Faeruners don't know about), and to have set up a pattern of watches (which requires several druids/rangers - would the city even have druids and rangers available, they don't tend to be city dwellers).

The M113 APC has a maximum speed of 42 mph; the Bradley is a little slower at 35 mph. The question is whether thatÂ’s their cruising speed through rough terrain. The M2 is listed with an off-road speed of 25 mph, which is neck-and-neck with the blackpoll.

So the blackpoll is roughly equivalent, if the tracked vehicles are running off-road, which is very situational. Running on local roads might allow them to move faster, but the local roads may not be the most direct route, whereas the bird will be flying directly to its destination. It comes down to the details of the situation, but the blackpoll is certainly competitive.

That's a bit quicker than the figures I gave. but, you are right, the bird may make it back faster

Those are from hobbyist websites who don’t collect or analyze their own data, and who have a vested interest in making outdoor cats seem as villainous as possible. “Reports” from “people” are unverified and have zero scientific value.

Research by actual scientists demonstrates cat predation does occur, but is extremely minor compared to other forms of mortality. Countless hummingbirds die on annual migration, and loss of habitat in both the Nearctic and Neotropics has a tremendous impact on many species.

In the U.S., window strikes have a far greater impact on hummingbird populations than any incidental predation by vertebrates. There are some Neotropical raptors that feed on hummingbirds, but these are highly specialized aerial predators, and thereÂ’s no comparison with a human standing on the ground just waving his arms around.

I'm sure that many hummingbirds die from other causes (like habitat loss), but that's hardly relevant. Lots of seasl die for reasons other than polar bear predation, but that doesn't mean bears can't catch them.

You have criticised my sources as unscientific, but then circle back to your own bald claims, which are not backed up by any sources. As it stands my sources (some) are infinitely better than yours (none).

We both agree that cats can and do predate on hummingbirds in flight. If you think these are edge cases, please provide a source.

Cats do probably have faster reflexes than humans - but at the same time the hummingbirds the cats catch aren't trying to peck them in the face.

From Touch Attacks, p. 136 of the PHB: “Some attacks disregard armor, including shields and natural armor. For instance, a wizard’s touch with a shocking grasp spell hurts you regardless of what armor you’re wearing or how thick your skin happens to be.”

If we’re using magic at all in this scenario, then we need to follow all the rules associated with it—in whatever edition is selected—rather than selectively replacing them with “real world rules.”

You could as logically say that "if we are using real life soldiers in this scenario we have to have things work the way they do in real life, rather than selectively replacing them with 'DnD rules'". You could imagine this scenario as playing out they way things work in the real world (in which case the soldiers obviously win) or the way things work in DnD (in which case Faerun obviously wins), or make common sense compromises between the two.

I think we simply have different visions of druids. I see druids as actively engaged in the living landscape, immersed in the lives of the creatures around them and speaking with them as readily as villagers speak with their neighbors. I see druids as intelligent, perceptive, and attentive to the natural world. I see druids as knowing individual animals and their descendants, following them for generation after generation through the years and decades. I see druids as constantly exchanging information with animals, about their doings and their environment and everything that affects them.

IÂ’m not sure exactly what you see druids doing, but it doesnÂ’t seem to be any of the above.

We may well have different visions. But we don't need to resolve that difference. Even a druid who is actively engaged, immersed in the lives etc etc, is not going to personally know and have a friendly relationship with every creature (incl all birds and rodents) within a 50km radius. There would be hundreds of thousands of creatures.

[dancrilis]

I do have to wonder if what the stats of a real world human would be - 4-8hp, all lethal damage inflicts a bleed effect comparable to how much damage is done maybe half round down min 0, if they take 1 point of that heals next turn, no other natural healing etc.
So can die to a 1d4 knife wound very easily particularly without treatment, but unless a cat gets a critical it isn't a real threat (cats can get criticals though).
If that is what a real world human is then the military is doomed (in effectively any dnd edition).
However if a human is a human then the soldiers will likely feel invincible when they enter the forgotten realms (and might feel that their guns are nearly worthless).

If we strip rules out of if then it becomes narrative which depends on whose narrative it is.

If we strip rules and narrative out of it then we don't really have a lot to work with.

I think we might be able to say that it would be similiar to an invasion by extraplaner entities, and that will likely result in some Faerun deities getting involved so if the real world military converts quickly enough they would start to have clerics etc, which leaves us the the question how good are guns over bows and arrows, in general I would say that not much better would be fair - someone hit by a bullet or an arrow is having a similarly bad day, however guns are easier to use well and not that technically complex so presumedly once someone in Faerun gets a hold of one they will quickly become widespread - so both side rapidly end up with magic and guns and then it depends on the specific forces involved.

Now if the real worlder don't convert then the Faerun people will still learn about guns so it becomes a battle between those with magic and guns vs those with guns - Youjo Senki did that fight and it didn't go well for the army that did not have magic.

[Liquor Box]

I do have to wonder if what the stats of a real world human would be - 4-8hp, all lethal damage inflicts a bleed effect comparable to how much damage is done maybe half round down min 0, if they take 1 point of that heals next turn, no other natural healing etc.
So can die to a 1d4 knife wound very easily particularly without treatment, but unless a cat gets a critical it isn't a real threat (cats can get criticals though).
If that is what a real world human is then the military is doomed (in effectively any dnd edition).
However if a human is a human then the soldiers will likely feel invincible when they enter the forgotten realms (and might feel that their guns are nearly worthless).

If we strip rules out of if then it becomes narrative which depends on whose narrative it is.

If we strip rules and narrative out of it then we don't really have a lot to work with.

I think we might be able to say that it would be similiar to an invasion by extraplaner entities, and that will likely result in some Faerun deities getting involved so if the real world military converts quickly enough they would start to have clerics etc, which leaves us the the question how good are guns over bows and arrows, in general I would say that not much better would be fair - someone hit by a bullet or an arrow is having a similarly bad day, however guns are easier to use well and not that technically complex so presumedly once someone in Faerun gets a hold of one they will quickly become widespread - so both side rapidly end up with magic and guns and then it depends on the specific forces involved.

Now if the real worlder don't convert then the Faerun people will still learn about guns so it becomes a battle between those with magic and guns vs those with guns - Youjo Senki did that fight and it didn't go well for the army that did not have magic.

I agree. The distinction between DnD rules and the real world probably decides it.

Under DnD rules a low level character (and the military would mostly be low level) can attack once per round. That one attack with a gun, might only be slightly more effective than a bow and arrow - depending on the rules it might have more range, may be a touch attack, may do more dmg etc.

Under real world rules an automatic weapon can fire a full clip every round. If a bullet does D10 dmg, that's a potential 30D10 per round.

Under DnD rules riflemen are marginally better than archers. In the real world, even hundreds of years ago a modern (at the time) unit could defeat many times their own number.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Vinyadan
It depends on how much the druids care for the undergrowth, or the animals being unwittingly scared away from their homes. There also may be sacred streams, trees, or glades that locals avoid and whose violation means becoming a target as long as you are in the wood.

The direct impacts will certainly be an issue, but it’s the potential danger that the druids will be worried about. I wouldn’t expect they’d be placid about a horde of self-propelled metal contraptions tended by strangely armored people—especially if they start moving towards Silverymoon or another settlement.

As for why the druids would be concerned about Silverymoon, or any other city—there are a lot of druids in the Silver Marches, and they’re highly integrated into many of the settlements. They’re mentioned as being part of the network of scouts which keeps watch over the Marches, the “wilderness warriors of the North” who are vital to the region’s defense.

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
…would the city even have druids and rangers available, they don't tend to be city dwellers….

See above, but also note there are at least 24 rangers who are full members of the Knights in Silver.

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
Cats do probably have faster reflexes than humans - but at the same time the hummingbirds the cats catch aren't trying to peck them in the face.

If we’re going to debate cats and hummingbirds any further, we should probably do that in a separate thread, since the topic has gone beyond tangential to the discussion here.

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
You could imagine this scenario as playing out they way things work in the real world (in which case the soldiers obviously win) or the way things work in DnD (in which case Faerun obviously wins), or make common sense compromises between the two.

Originally Posted by dancrilis
If we strip rules out of if then it becomes narrative which depends on whose narrative it is.

If we strip rules and narrative out of it then we don't really have a lot to work with.

I think dancrilis answered that nicely.

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
Even a druid who is actively engaged, immersed in the lives etc etc, is not going to personally know and have a friendly relationship with every creature (incl all birds and rodents) within a 50km radius.

I never said he’d know every creature, and I’m not sure where you’re getting the 50-km radius from.

A druid doesn’t need to know every creature for some of them to keep him informed. And you seem to be assuming there’s only one druid in the area, which for the Silver Marches is a long way from true.

Originally Posted by dancrilis
…someone hit by a bullet or an arrow is having a similarly bad day, however guns are easier to use well and not that technically complex so presumedly once someone in Faerun gets a hold of one they will quickly become widespread - so both side rapidly end up with magic and guns and then it depends on the specific forces involved.

I’m not a gun expert, but I have a strong sense that one bullet can do far more damage than one arrow, partly from the shockwave and partly because bullets can bounce and tumble inside the body. And a bullet hitting bone can blast a shower of bone shards throughout the body, whereas an arrow that hits bone usually just comes to rest.

I’m also not sure that Faerûn would be able to quickly replicate and mass-produce weapons like the M4, which is the product of centuries of firearms development and a highly industrialized society. But I’ll leave that point to the actual gun experts.

.

[pendell]

Under real world rules an automatic weapon can fire a full clip every round. If a bullet does D10 dmg, that's a potential 30D10 per round.

Clarification: A soldier typically can't fire a full clip into a human size target; after the first two or three rounds the gun jerks around so much the bullets spray all over the place. That'll still be fine against something huge like a T-rex, but it's not useful against human-size. That's why many rifles have a 3 round burst setting rather than a full auto setting. It's just a way to waste ammunition in many cases.

Assault rifles have enough velocity in their rounds that they will tear straight through modern Mark III battle armor, to say nothing of old-school plate. Once it hits, depending on where, it will probably inflict blood loss. It probably takes multiple bullets of 5.56 to down a human target, though even one can kill -- eventually. But it may very well be a slow wound. A person could very well finish fighting in a combat before succumbing afterwards.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[dancrilis]

Even a druid who is actively engaged, immersed in the lives etc etc, is not going to personally know and have a friendly relationship with every creature (incl all birds and rodents) within a 50km radius.

I never said he’d know every creature, and I’m not sure where you’re getting the 50-km radius from.

A druid doesn’t need to know every creature for some of them to keep him informed. And you seem to be assuming there’s only one druid in the area, which for the Silver Marches is a long way from true.

You seem to have quoted against the wrong name for this bit.

I’m not a gun expert, but I have a strong sense that one bullet can do far more damage than one arrow, partly from the shockwave and partly because bullets can bounce and tumble inside the body. And a bullet hitting bone can blast a shower of bone shards throughout the body, whereas an arrow that hits bone usually just comes to rest.

I would wonder about the survival rate of being shot by an arrow at ten paces versus shot by a gun at the same range - but probably not worth conducting the study, and probably illegal in most places to try ... although it might be the kindof thing that Thay and similiar places would allow.

I’m also not sure that Faerûn would be able to quickly replicate and mass-produce weapons like the M4, which is the product of centuries of firearms development and a highly industrialized society. But I’ll leave that point to the actual gun experts.

Well charm person would get them an expert in firearms fairly quickly, and the gods would likely figure it out instantly and be able to provide their worshippers with the knowledge, and people could use magic to assist the creation process etc.
My thinking is there are areas of the world which didn't develop firearms but which have them and can produce them now that others have figured it out - no reason that Faerun couldn't also, possibly quicker as they have magic to assist them.
But who knows that gets back to narrative I suppose.

[Mechalich]

I would wonder about the survival rate of being shot by an arrow at ten paces versus shot by a gun at the same range - but probably not worth conducting the study, and probably illegal in most places to try ... although it might be the kindof thing that Thay and similiar places would allow.

There's no such thing as 'an arrow' or 'a gun.' Different bow and arrow combinations and different firearms and bullet combinations have wildly varying levels of lethality. Arrows, for example, trade the ability to tear through large amounts of flesh and inflict extensive bleeding against penetrative power. That's why arrows used to do things like hunt deer are wide flesh-rending broadheads, while arrows used to punch through armor have narrow points that are far less damaging to living tissue. Bullets likewise vary massively in penetrative power, the way they interact with living tissue, and what they are designed to do. Assault rifles are designed to engage massively beyond ten paces - at that range you could reliably put a ten-gauge shotgun slug through someone, which is astoundingly deadly.

Well charm person would get them an expert in firearms fairly quickly, and the gods would likely figure it out instantly and be able to provide their worshippers with the knowledge, and people could use magic to assist the creation process etc.
My thinking is there are areas of the world which didn't develop firearms but which have them and can produce them now that others have figured it out - no reason that Faerun couldn't also, possibly quicker as they have magic to assist them.
But who knows that gets back to narrative I suppose.

The gods don't count for any sort of comparison of this nature, obviously. If they did, then humans on Earth get real-life assistance from their deities and it just becomes an utterly pointless god vs. god fight.

As for reproducing firearms, it's not simply a matter of knowledge. It's a matter of the massive accumulation of materials science and industrial production to actually build a modern firearm. Faerun, for example, doesn't have steel of sufficient quality to produce a modern barrel, a blacksmith-made gunbarrel firing modern ammunition will burst essentially 100% of the time.

Yes high-level magic could reproduce such materials, in the same way it makes clockwork creations and the like, but there are far better uses for high-level magic.