Modern soldiers vs. Faerun. What do you think happens?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by pendell
That's why many rifles have a 3 round burst setting rather than a full auto setting.

Interesting. I could see this working out to be 3d10 damage per round, plus a bleed effect, which is certainly significant.

Originally Posted by dancrilis
You seem to have quoted against the wrong name for this bit.

My apologies, now corrected.

Originally Posted by dancrilis
Well charm person would get them an expert in firearms fairly quickly, and the gods would likely figure it out instantly and be able to provide their worshippers with the knowledge, and people could use magic to assist the creation process etc.

I had the impression that the gods were a little more hands-off, but I haven’t read any of the novels and I’m not sure what the default would be. My own preference in this scenario would be to leave them out of it, except for spells granted, auguries vaguely answered, etc.

Originally Posted by Mechalich
Faerun, for example, doesn't have steel of sufficient quality to produce a modern barrel, a blacksmith-made gunbarrel firing modern ammunition will burst essentially 100% of the time.

Now I’m wondering what a mithral gunbarrel would be like, and how it would perform. Magical firearms—meaning pistol- and rifle-like weapons using something other than gunpowder to push a projectile—could be an interesting development, but effective versions likely wouldn’t show up until years after the first encounter.

I also wonder, in the comparison between bullets and arrows, where magically enhanced arrows would fall. A +1 splitting flaming burst arrow (just to come up with something random) would probably go some ways towards closing any gap.

Originally Posted by dancrilis
Well charm person would get them an expert in firearms fairly quickly….

Speaking of person-to-person contact, one aspect of this scenario that hasn’t been mentioned yet is the possibility of first contact between an adventuring party and a recon unit. They’re both of similar size, used to operating away from a larger group, and it could make for an interesting tactical encounter.

.

[Liquor Box]

See above, but also note there are at least 24 rangers who are full members of the Knights in Silver.

So on the Druids, you are assuming that those in the wilderness would be part of the city defence?

How many of the 24 rangers are high enough level to cast animal messenger?

If weÂ’re going to debate cats and hummingbirds any further, we should probably do that in a separate thread, since the topic has gone beyond tangential to the discussion here.

Sure. If this were a game situation, I guess the DM would ask for a dice roll to hit the hummingbird or swat it away. Our discussion goes to how tough the role would be - so whether the DM is more inclined to agree with me or you. The question is whether the wizard would take the risk (both to his own life, and giving away that animals are not always what they seem). Is the wizard using polymorph self - if so a reasonably high level to be risking himself.

I think dancrilis answered that nicely.

I don;t think he did answer it, or even tried to. But since you reference, I'll respond.

If we strip rules out of if then it becomes narrative which depends on whose narrative it is.

If we strip rules and narrative out of it then we don't really have a lot to work with.

If we assume DnD rules then we are already assuming a narrative in favour of Faerun. If we we assume things work as they do in the real world, then we are assuming a different narrativein favour of earth.

Either of those narratives strongly favour one side or the other by taking away the potency of one side. Alternatively we could take a common sense approach to how things might interact, which is a different narrative again - but one where both sides get to use their powers, and both have a shot.

I never said heÂ’d know every creature, and IÂ’m not sure where youÂ’re getting the 50-km radius from.

A druid doesnÂ’t need to know every creature for some of them to keep him informed. And you seem to be assuming thereÂ’s only one druid in the area, which for the Silver Marches is a long way from true.

We were talking about the druid being informed when the earthlings arrived. 50km was just a guess as to how far away from the city they might camp. Its about an hours drive. They could be further away, and still be within drone and helicopter range. Maybe they'd be closer to come within sniper and mortar range, but I would guess not.

If there are twenty druids living in the area and each know 100 animals well, then that's 2,000 animals known (assuming no overlaps). If there are 200,000 animals in the area, then for each one who sees the battalion, there's a 1% chance that they know a druid.

[Elbeyon]

That is a weird way to figure if an animal will report the troops. Most people do not personally know cops, but I would bet most people know how to find a cop if they think they need one. They go to the police/druid even if they do not personally know them.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
So on the Druids, you are assuming that those in the wilderness would be part of the city defence?

Yes, for reasons I’ve already covered.

To summarize: the cities of the Silver Marches are joined in a federation for common defense. Druids are explicitly mentioned as being part of the network of wilderness scouts who share information about potential threats to the federation. The North is dangerous, the scouting network is on constant alert and druids are actively involved.

And as I mentioned, Silverymoon is the location of a glade sacred to Mielikki, one of the patron deities of the city and one of the foremost deities of nature in Faerûn. If there's a threat to that city, the druids will be there to protect their holy site.

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
If we assume DnD rules then we are already assuming a narrative in favour of Faerun.

Well, the invading battalion is in Faerûn—by definition a D&D world—so at the very least the people native to Faerûn should have full use of their abilities while in their own world. Arbitrarily removing aspects of those abilities isn’t called for and won’t make for a more equitable situation.

And I think it’s possible to represent the invading forces fairly within that same framework, based on what pendell and others have said. I’m open to suggestions from any of the gun experts who have commented, but I think treating an M4 as a ranged touch attack for 3d10 plus a bleed effect is a fair approximation, and far deadlier than most weapons a first-level native of Faerûn could bring to bear.

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
If there are twenty druids living in the area and each know 100 animals well….

Safe to say we’re not going to agree on whether local wildlife will be communicating with druids about the invaders, and leave it at that.

Originally Posted by Palanan
A spectral panther could take out a recon squad in moments, and I’m not sure how they’d fight a creature that can attack while incorporeal.

Originally Posted by Palanan
Speaking of person-to-person contact, one aspect of this scenario that hasn’t been mentioned yet is the possibility of first contact between an adventuring party and a recon unit. They’re both of similar size, used to operating away from a larger group, and it could make for an interesting tactical encounter.

I wanted to be sure these items weren’t overlooked. Again, the deeper into the wilderness the battalion is parked, the more exposed they’ll be to a whole range of creatures, some of whom have abilities that a modern battalion won’t be able to overcome. Even unloading a full clip into a spectral panther won’t do much if it’s incorporeal, and there are worse things than spectral panthers out there.

And, as a more general comment, I’m intrigued by the prospects of an encounter between a five-person adventuring party and a five-person recon squad. It would be swingy and depend heavily on the details, but I have a feeling that in an initial encounter between these two groups, the recon squad would have a strong advantage and would probably eliminate most of the adventurers—although healing magic might tip the balance if both sides inflict heavy injuries on each other.

[Mechalich]

I wanted to be sure these items weren’t overlooked. Again, the deeper into the wilderness the battalion is parked, the more exposed they’ll be to a whole range of creatures, some of whom have abilities that a modern battalion won’t be able to overcome. Even unloading a full clip into a spectral panther won’t do much if it’s incorporeal, and there are worse things than spectral panthers out there.

Incorporeal creatures, unfortunately, don't represent any sort of pro-Faerun argument, because the use of incorporeal entities as mass combat weapons breaks D&D settings, full stop. Faerun has maybe. Being very generous, one magical weapon per one hundred trained soldiers, which means it has maybe one magical weapons per one thousand people (useable anyway, there are no doubt any number of dragon hoards with giant piles of +1 longspears, but those help no one), so the minute you introduce mass use of incorporeal undead (especially anything that spawns, like wraiths), you trigger the incorporeal undead apocalypse and everyone just dies (and no, turning isn't enough to mitigate this, since there aren't nearly enough clerics powerful enough to turn creatures of this nature).

This is the catch-22 issue of any generalized 'vs D&D' scenario, in that the more dangerous you make the D&D world by utilizing its potentially optimized capabilities the more you destroy that world. Incorporeal undead is merely a simple example. This holds true to coordinated druid-based deployment of animal allies, mass summoning, any just about anything else.

[Forum Explorer]

Incorporeal creatures, unfortunately, don't represent any sort of pro-Faerun argument, because the use of incorporeal entities as mass combat weapons breaks D&D settings, full stop. Faerun has maybe. Being very generous, one magical weapon per one hundred trained soldiers, which means it has maybe one magical weapons per one thousand people (useable anyway, there are no doubt any number of dragon hoards with giant piles of +1 longspears, but those help no one), so the minute you introduce mass use of incorporeal undead (especially anything that spawns, like wraiths), you trigger the incorporeal undead apocalypse and everyone just dies (and no, turning isn't enough to mitigate this, since there aren't nearly enough clerics powerful enough to turn creatures of this nature).

This is the catch-22 issue of any generalized 'vs D&D' scenario, in that the more dangerous you make the D&D world by utilizing its potentially optimized capabilities the more you destroy that world. Incorporeal undead is merely a simple example. This holds true to coordinated druid-based deployment of animal allies, mass summoning, any just about anything else.

Unless of course you aren't playing 3.5, in which case incorporeal creatures just get resistance to non-magical attacks, not immunity. Well at least that's the case in 5e. Which Faerun is explicitly running on at this point anyways.

[Elbeyon]

Unless of course you aren't playing 3.5, in which case incorporeal creatures just get resistance to non-magical attacks, not immunity. Well at least that's the case in 5e. Which Faerun is explicitly running on at this point anyways.

5e has its own issues. A werewolf is immune to any non-magical weapon not made of silver. Every single bullet will bounce off its mighty abs.

[Forum Explorer]

5e has its own issues. A werewolf is immune to any non-magical weapon not made of silver. Every single bullet will bounce off its mighty abs.

They do burn though.

[Elbeyon]

They do burn though.

Grab the flamethrowers, boys! Fire is back on the menu.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Mechalich
…the minute you introduce mass use of incorporeal undead….

Slow down, tiger. I haven’t mentioned mass use of undead, and I haven’t even mentioned the use of undead, so let’s not go down that particular wormhole.

[Liquor Box]

That is a weird way to figure if an animal will report the troops. Most people do not personally know cops, but I would bet most people know how to find a cop if they think they need one. They go to the police/druid even if they do not personally know them.

Most animals are not people. Animals that are not people would probably not recognise the battalion is anything especially worth reporting (they probably wouldn't see it any differently to how real earth animals would. Most animals that are not people do not report strange sights, and instead tend to avoid things they think are dangerous (or maybe observe if they think they can get food scraps).

Faerun animals who do not personally know a druid probably don't know that there is a magic spell which makes them able to speak to humans. They are probably unable to distinguish a druid from any other person.

I find it very hard to believe that an ordinary Faerun animal who does not have a personal relationship with a druid (which is the overwhelming majority of them) would do anything other than what an ordinary earth animal would do if troops roll past. I don't think they'd:

• Spontaneously come to the realisation that there was another human (not the ones it sees) who would be interested in knowing that information.
• Spontaneously know that this other person would be able to understand them.
• Spontaneously figure out the identify of this person - so they don't run up to every person they see until they come across this druid.
• Come to the conslusion (which is not necessarily correct) that this unknown person deserves its loyalty moreso than the humans it now sees (who are presumably doing nothing more than any other group of soldiers to upset the animal).
• Be motivated to put aside whatever it had planned to do that day or week (probably find food), overcome its fear of humans and travel miles and miles to find this druid in a haystack.
• have enough of an understanding of what it saw to be able to appropriately communicate it to the druid.

As I understood it, the theory was that the Druid would have a personal relationship with some animals that might allow it to overcome some (but not all, in my opinion) of those limitations.

Safe to say we’re not going to agree on whether local wildlife will be communicating with druids about the invaders, and leave it at that.

For the reasons given above, I think you are probably right.

Yes, for reasons I’ve already covered.

To summarize: the cities of the Silver Marches are joined in a federation for common defense. Druids are explicitly mentioned as being part of the network of wilderness scouts who share information about potential threats to the federation. The North is dangerous, the scouting network is on constant alert and druids are actively involved.

And as I mentioned, Silverymoon is the location of a glade sacred to Mielikki, one of the patron deities of the city and one of the foremost deities of nature in Faerûn. If there's a threat to that city, the druids will be there to protect their holy site.

Ok, I'll take your word for it. I assume that you have interpreted battalion vs city to mean battalion vs city and their allies (the federation in this case)?

Interesting that they explicitly mention druids as being part of the network. I'm going to go out on a limb that they don't say all the animals are also part of that network?

Well, the invading battalion is in Faerûn—by definition a D&D world—so at the very least the people native to Faerûn should have full use of their abilities while in their own world. Arbitrarily removing aspects of those abilities isn’t called for and won’t make for a more equitable situation.

And I think it’s possible to represent the invading forces fairly within that same framework, based on what pendell and others have said. I’m open to suggestions from any of the gun experts who have commented, but I think treating an M4 as a ranged touch attack for 3d10 plus a bleed effect is a fair approximation, and far deadlier than most weapons a first-level native of Faerûn could bring to bear.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have access to their abilities - that would be to assume in favour of the real world. But there are some crunchy issues where the real world and DnD rules don't interact so well - like the contagion issue. No problem with Faerun people being able to cast a spell that makes what it touches contagious (which seems like a reasonable suspension of disbelief), but the idea that touching their clothes infects them is beyond that in my opinion.

I wanted to be sure these items weren’t overlooked. Again, the deeper into the wilderness the battalion is parked, the more exposed they’ll be to a whole range of creatures, some of whom have abilities that a modern battalion won’t be able to overcome. Even unloading a full clip into a spectral panther won’t do much if it’s incorporeal, and there are worse things than spectral panthers out there.

I passed this by because it likewise goes to rules interaction. I Are bullets the equivalent of magic weapons (doesn't seem unreasonable given their power), and if not bullets what about the other specialised weapons a battalion might carry which have no Faerun equivalent (high explosive rounds) or vehicle mounted weapons? Can they be damaged by an electrical charge (which is magical in Faerun), given that they aredamaged by spell-like abilities?

That assumes 3.5 of course. If its later editions, no problem arises. They shoot it. It's resistances wont stand up to the volume of fire its facing.

And, as a more general comment, I’m intrigued by the prospects of an encounter between a five-person adventuring party and a five-person recon squad. It would be swingy and depend heavily on the details, but I have a feeling that in an initial encounter between these two groups, the recon squad would have a strong advantage and would probably eliminate most of the adventurers—although healing magic might tip the balance if both sides inflict heavy injuries on each other.

I suppose it depends heavily on the level of the adventurers, whether the parties are prepared for one another and also probably some of the rules issues we are discussing.

Since we are raising points that have been passed over, what are your thoughts on this:

True, but no need to assume they are any cleverer than the military force either - they are probably not.

I get the impression that you are approaching this almost like it's a game situation, and you are playing the high level characters of the city.

Can I suggest, as a thought experiment, that you think of the military as the protagonist you are playing. If you were the commander of the battalion, how would you win.

[Divayth Fyr]

No problem with Faerun people being able to cast a spell that makes what it touches contagious (which seems like a reasonable suspension of disbelief), but the idea that touching their clothes infects them is beyond that in my opinion.

The idea that magic could pass through the clothes is beyond "suspension of disbelief"? Really?

That assumes 3.5 of course. If its later editions, no problem arises. They shoot it. It's resistances wont stand up to the volume of fire its facing.

As mentioned, in 5th replace the spectral creature with a werewolf. Flat out immunity to non-magic, non-silver weapons. I doubt silver bullets are standard issue for modern armies :P

[HandofShadows]

Grab the flamethrowers, boys! Fire is back on the menu.

Naw, don't need those. A few signal/smoke flares will do. You know, the ones that use Willie Pete.

[Liquor Box]

The idea that magic could pass through the clothes is beyond "suspension of disbelief"? Really?

No, the idea that the infection transmitted by someone touching your clothes would.

As mentioned, in 5th replace the spectral creature with a werewolf. Flat out immunity to non-magic, non-silver weapons. I doubt silver bullets are standard issue for modern armies :P

So, in 5ed a werewolf beats a storm giant? Sounds silly.

Anyway, someone else mentioned that fire hurts them. US Army carries a range of incendiary devices, from the individual level, to rockets launched from helicopters. They also have other weapons which I imagine could stop werewolves (even if non-magical), such as stun grenades and gas grenades.

If the soldiers sheltered in their vehicle (I don't think they would) then the werewolf might not be able to harm them.

[hamishspence]

So, in 5ed a werewolf beats a storm giant? Sounds silly.

Only if the storm giant has no silver, or magic, weapon whatsoever.

Even then, it can throw lightning bolts every few rounds. Those are magic.

I personally would rule that all energy, even nonmagical (say, a forest fire, or a regular lightning bolt) works just fine on them - and that immunity to nonmagical physical damage (slashing, bludgeoning, and piercing) only covers things that are specifically those three).

[pendell]

How about running over the werewolf with the LAV? Even if it doesn't kill the creature, it should mangle it enough that, even with their healing factor, they will be combat-incapable until long after the column has passed. As I've said in other games when facing invulnerable enemies , "We can't kill them but we can make them wish we had" .


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kitten Champion]

Of course, even if the mundane military does kill that Werewolf - through whatever means - they have no ability of lifting the Lycanthropy curse on anyone they've bitten. Which, depending on the size of the military, would very well spell disaster for absolutely everyone.

[pendell]

Of course, even if the mundane military does kill that Werewolf - through whatever means - they have no ability of lifting the Lycanthropy curse on anyone they've bitten. Which, depending on the size of the military, would very well spell disaster for absolutely everyone.

I dunno, what if they can find ways to make them lucid? Now you have soldiers who have their own invulnerability and fast healing. If they retain their reason (I forget whether they do in the current edition or not ; some do, some don't) then the military might go on to infect everyone in the unit.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
They are probably unable to distinguish a druid from any other person.

Research shows that crows are able to recognize individual faces, remember those faces for years and share that information with conspecifics.

Alexander Skutch, a preeminent Neotropical ornithologist, reported that some tropical species recognized him after several years’ absence from a site.

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
Are bullets the equivalent of magic weapons (doesn't seem unreasonable given their power), and if not bullets what about the other specialised weapons a battalion might carry which have no Faerun equivalent (high explosive rounds) or vehicle mounted weapons?

None of these are magical, nor should they be granted some sort of honorary magical status.

If you’re claiming that historically developed gunpowder is “magical,” then you’re effectively saying that every weapon every soldier in the the battalion carries is a magic weapon. You’re quite literally giving the battalion the best of both worlds, which is an overwhelming advantage to their side.

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
I suppose it depends heavily on the level of the adventurers, whether the parties are prepared for one another and also probably some of the rules issues we are discussing.

A high-level adventuring party would be extremely unlikely and extremely unfair, given the advantage in magic. A low-level party is more reasonable in all respects. What makes the most sense to me is to work out the likely level of the members of a five-person recon squad, and then assemble an adventuring party of equal level.

Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr
The idea that magic could pass through the clothes is beyond "suspension of disbelief"? Really?

I’m puzzled at this too. I’m not sure why it’s okay to be flying and invisible, but not able to cast a spell through a couple layers of cloth.

Originally Posted by Elbeyon
Grab the flamethrowers, boys! Fire is back on the menu.

It may take the soldiers a little while to realize their bullets aren’t having much effect, and by that time some of the werewolves will probably have killed a fair number of the soldiers in the firefight. This is assuming the werewolves are encountering a recon squad or platoon, using stealth and hit-and-run tactics, rather than making a frontal assault on the entire battalion.

It doesn’t look like recon squads usually carry flamethrowers, so they may be out of luck. If the werewolves attack repeatedly, eventually the battalion will catch on, but it may take a while.

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
If the soldiers sheltered in their vehicle (I don't think they would) then the werewolf might not be able to harm them.

Hope they locked the hatch.

Originally Posted by pendell
I dunno, what if they can find ways to make them lucid? Now you have soldiers who have their own invulnerability and fast healing. If they retain their reason (I forget whether they do in the current edition or not ; some do, some don't) then the military might go on to infect everyone in the unit.

Lycanthropy might be a tactical asset, but in 3.5 werewolves are CE, which might cause some problems with command structure. I could see the battalion making use of a few infected individuals, but if the entire battalion were infected it would probably break apart.

[Kitten Champion]

I dunno, what if they can find ways to make them lucid? Now you have soldiers who have their own invulnerability and fast healing. If they retain their reason (I forget whether they do in the current edition or not ; some do, some don't) then the military might go on to infect everyone in the unit.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

How would they? Even if it were possible, to develop such a treatment they would need to know beforehand that curses are a thing, Lycanthropy is a thing, identify that someone is cursed with Lycanthropy, and then develop a treatment for said curse. All of which is completely alien to the entire scope and logic of biology and biomedicine. I mean, it would be cool, but still.

Anyways, the way I understand it works in 5e is that those afflicted with Lycanthropy show no symptoms until their first full moon, after which they can't control their initial transformation, lose all reason, and usually end up killing everyone around them.

If those being afflicted has no objective downsides who in this world wouldn't want to be cursed with Lycanthropy both in-universe and on a meta-level? If you're a player and want a literally monstrously powerful PC at zero downside, why wouldn't you? And if you're a NPC fielding an army within the universe and you could make them nigh-immortal death-dealers why wouldn't you curse every last one of your troops? There has to be a downside and... a pretty bad one.

The "no early symptom" thing is probably for the sake of the common RP game of "identify the werewolf"-style mystery. Which would be pretty boring if you could just point the one with obvious early secondary symptoms and say "it's probably them".

Also to my understanding the "good werewolves" are those naturally born with the curse in them and have learnt control through various means.

Hope they locked the hatch.
.

Yeah, Werewolves aren't stupid. They aren't Mind Flayers or anything, but they aren't zombies.

[Forum Explorer]

As mentioned, in 5th replace the spectral creature with a werewolf. Flat out immunity to non-magic, non-silver weapons. I doubt silver bullets are standard issue for modern armies :P

I personally would rule that all energy, even nonmagical (say, a forest fire, or a regular lightning bolt) works just fine on them - and that immunity to nonmagical physical damage (slashing, bludgeoning, and piercing) only covers things that are specifically those three).

To be exact, in 5E, Werewolves (and other things with immunities) have immunity to non-magical, piercing, bludgeoning, and slashing damage. Explicitly, fire and other energy attacks effects them normally.

Actually on that note, would the shock wave from an explosion be sonic damage or bludgeoning?

Research shows that crows are able to recognize individual faces, remember those faces for years and share that information with conspecifics.

Alexander Skutch, a preeminent Neotropical ornithologist, reported that some tropical species recognized him after several years’ absence from a site.


It may take the soldiers a little while to realize their bullets aren’t having much effect, and by that time some of the werewolves will probably have killed a fair number of the soldiers in the firefight. This is assuming the werewolves are encountering a recon squad or platoon, using stealth and hit-and-run tactics, rather than making a frontal assault on the entire battalion.

It doesn’t look like recon squads usually carry flamethrowers, so they may be out of luck. If the werewolves attack repeatedly, eventually the battalion will catch on, but it may take a while.



Hope they locked the hatch.

Recognizing the druid isn't the problem. It's recognizing the battalion as a threat. Like I said before (and I suspect you have me on ignore, so I don't know why I'm even bothering), a modern battalion doesn't live off the land like medieval armies did. They don't do all that much damage to the environment, and while the animals might be startled by their passing, there won't be any danger to trigger 'we should report this to the local druid', like an army of orcs would have.


It will take them seconds to realize that the werewolves are immune to bullets, by which time the werewolves are still hundreds of meters away. Even if the werewolves pulled off an ambush, modern body armor puts plate armor to shame. They'd have to get pretty lucky to get a kill by that time. And that's assuming anyone is actually outside of the LAV. Because the LAV is fast enough that the patrol could retreat in seconds if need be.


Actually if you don't know what a LAV actually is; here is a good video I found talking about them.

[Vinyadan]

I think it would be worth talking a bit more about fireballs, and how they could be represented in a narrative that isn't a D&D session.

First, fireballs aren't exactly the same as mundane fire. They differ from it in two ways: mundane fire inflicts damage in a different way (1d6/minute), plus it can set characters on fire (clothes and hair), which fireballs cannot.

Fireballs instead inflict instantaneous damage, explode without causing pressure, set combustibles (but not clothes and hair) on fire, and can instantaneously melt metals like copper, bronze, gold, silver and lead. Among these, copper has the highest melting point, at 1,085°C (1358,15°K or 1985°F).

So I would see a fireball as a spell that throws a projectile loaded with an energy wave. Once the projectile hits, the wave is freed, and, within its 20 ft radius, instantaneously traverses anything with a melting point below 1,085°C. These objects undergo sudden, massive heating, to the point of melting for metal, igniting in an instantaneous flame and turning to ashes for items that would burn before melting, and steam explosions for objects that contain water (like animals, people, trees, dirt depending on composition, bodies of water...). Items with an higher melting point may suffer surface damage, but are fundamentally safe, depending on their hardness and thickness (which is a way to say, D&D has rules about items breaking that apply to fireballs too, which means that a thin sheet of fireproof material might break and give way to the fireball, but I didn't work out the numbers).

I really like this version for the pyrotechnics, but it's probably pretty OP (I also don't take any responsibility for the physics involved).

If instead we want to see fireballs as strictly related to mundane fire, then, since fire inflicts 1d6 over one minute, and a basic fireball inflicts 1d6 instantaneously, you can imagine a fireball as the equivalent of standing in the fire for one minute. Each d6 adds one minute. Metals below 1085° are a special case that the spell is wired to melt.
Come to think of it, this is still terrifying. However, it's also pretty vague, given that different woods will burn with different temperatures, and, of course, there isn't just wood, and, even within the same fire, temperatures are different in different places. Wood ignites around 300°C, but the fire itself is around 900°C (around 1,600°F), and, given enough time and channeling, wood fire can bend iron (which might mean reaching the forging temperature of 1371°C).

EDIT: keep in mind that vehicles are loud and the druid might hear them from hundreds or even thousands of metres away. More to the point, if druids find it important to keep the forests patrolled, they can cast awaken and gain permanent intelligent patrols. If the system has been around for a while, they probably have hundreds of them, and simply awaken a new animal when an old one dies. You can use awakened trees as information collection points, have some animals out patrolling, and others messaging info between the trees, so that the whole net is informed about what's going on (albeit not instantaneously) and the druid can just ask a tree about the news.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kitten Champion
Anyways, the way I understand it works in 5e is that those afflicted with Lycanthropy show no symptoms until their first full moon, after which they can't control their initial transformation, lose all reason, and usually end up killing everyone around them.

Definitely awkward for unit cohesion.

Originally Posted by Kitten Champion
Also to my understanding the "good werewolves" are those naturally born with the curse in them and have learnt control through various means.

That’s pretty much the approach in 3.5, although as I recall it’s only the werebears who are inherently good, likely as a nod to Beorn.

Originally Posted by Vinyadan
I think it would be worth talking a bit more about fireballs, and how they could be represented in a narrative that isn't a D&D session.

This is very interesting, especially the part about steam explosions.

Someone commented earlier that ammo cases and other objects were hardened against incendiaries, but I have to wonder if that extends to sidearms and grenades worn on a soldier’s body, not to mention night-vision equipment, radio antennas and drone controls. A fireball could potentially do some nontrivial damage where those items are concerned.

Originally Posted by Vinyadan
More to the point, if druids find it important to keep the forests patrolled, they can cast awaken and gain permanent intelligent patrols. If the system has been around for a while, they probably have hundreds of them, and simply awaken a new animal when an old one dies. You can use awakened trees as information collection points, have some animals out patrolling, and others messaging info between the trees, so that the whole net is informed about what's going on (albeit not instantaneously) and the druid can just ask a tree about the news.

This is a great idea. I was wondering about treants and allied plant creatures, but a network of awakened trees and animals is both brilliant and plausible.

Is it explicitly mentioned in any of the books? Not that I'm aware. Is it a sensible use of a widely available spell? Yes. Yes it is.

.

[Tyndmyr]

Now I’m wondering what a mithral gunbarrel would be like, and how it would perform. Magical firearms—meaning pistol- and rifle-like weapons using something other than gunpowder to push a projectile—could be an interesting development, but effective versions likely wouldn’t show up until years after the first encounter.

High quality firearm barrels are chrome lined. That's probably roughly similar. We mostly don't need increased strength over what steel offers, but the lining is harder. More importantly, they are easier to clean and more corrosion resistant. Mithril may perhaps emulate these qualities.

They can be less accurate, because harder metals are harder to machine with exacting precision. You'll note that titanium is not a popular choice for barrels despite being quite hard.

So, exotic materials are unlikely to have any significant effect on firearm technology. Magic maybe would though, depending on the interactions. Probably depends on the magic system and exact interpretation. Mostly, D&D doesn't put much effort into modeling this particular interaction.

Naw, don't need those. A few signal/smoke flares will do. You know, the ones that use Willie Pete.

White phosphorous isn't extremely common. Most smoke grenades are safe to hold in a gloved hand while burning, and are not intended as a weapon. Signal flares as fired from a launcher might cause brief contact burns, but they are generally not intended as weapons, and flare guns frequently lack much in the way of sights. This strikes me as fairly difficult to use in practice. Perhaps you could attempt to trap and adversay, and then use flares to start a fire, but they are not really the equivalent of a gun, and incendiary ammunition isn't generally standard issue.

You'll get a lot more incendiary options when talking air support, but the original premise was an infantry unit, yes?

If the soldiers sheltered in their vehicle (I don't think they would) then the werewolf might not be able to harm them.

Assuming the humvees even have doors, which some don't, they are ludicrously flimsy. Any soldier would have no difficulty removing one. A werewolf can most certainly forcibly do the same.

More heavily armored vehicles are probably safe, but a *lot* of vehicles are comparatively light.

As for " stun grenades and gas grenades."...you mean flashbangs? That's the closest thing to a stun grenade, and it isn't truly something that stunds, it disorients. Which might well work, but temporarily disorienting doesn't allow dealing of damage. Gas is not a standard issue weapon for most militaries in the modern day. It might be a thing in WW1 era troops, but mostly that sort of thing is a Geneva convention violation nowadays. I don't think it would be even vaguely reasonable to assume an infantry unit would have it.

This is very interesting, especially the part about steam explosions.

Someone commented earlier that ammo cases and other objects were hardened against incendiaries, but I have to wonder if that extends to sidearms and grenades worn on a soldier’s body, not to mention night-vision equipment, radio antennas and drone controls. A fireball could potentially do some nontrivial damage where those items are concerned.

Ammunition in general is fairly difficult to set off by momentary heat. Even sustained heat, it takes a bit. You should certainly not toss ammunition into a campfire, but when people do that, it generally takes a bit before it goes boom. This is not different for sidearms, etc. Fireballs would certainly be damaging to electronics, though probably a lot less so than to the squishy human. The way fireballs are depicted leave little doubt that they would be pretty directly hazardous to the soldiers.

Any wizard capable of casting fireballs can be roughly considered as equal to a very accurate soldier with a grenade launcher. Leaving all other abilities and spells aside, of course, purely modeling the fireball.

Scouts would either start using infrared (if it works), possibly killing him (deflect arrows works on ranged attacks in general, but that could be a lot of bullets) or report that they are under attack and cannot effectively return fire.

Most IR doesn't work during the day. Thermal goggles do work, but are comparatively expensive and rare. Even for bog standard IR, not every infantry troop is generally going to carry it. Spotting a single flying figure in the sky would also be fairly challenging through a rifle scope, so if a wizard is, say, using multiple spells like invisibility and flying at the same time, they become much more difficult to stop.

It is also unlikely that the military will murder every animal in sight. Not only would this be non-stealthy, they would waste a great deal of munitions this way, against something they usually wouldn't consider a threat. They might eventually adopt such a policy if the natives took to using animals as scouts, but it wouldn't be the default.

We never hear about Faerunians using this in any book or story, except when it's the odd ranger or when it is the quirk of an entire civilization (you mentioned wood elves). The former is quite rare in a city, and the latter non-existant unless this is an elven city.

Any decently sized city should have a decent spread of low level PC classes, so the presence of at least a decent handful of rangers can be assumed. If we're sticking with Silverymoon, it's a city literally built on a sacred site to the god of rangers, so it's probably going to be pretty heavy on them.

Druids can also be assumed to be familiar with moving through natural environments fairly unobtrusively. With 40kish people around, there's likely to be at least a handful of druids passing through or nearby. The concept of scouting should not be a foreign one to the people of Faerun.

Shrink item wouldn't work. A LAV is one object. You need to shrink the entire object, not just a part of it. Also it breaks by toss the object in question onto the ground, so it's pretty easy to dispel, even by accident.

What counts as an object is...at least somewhat subjective. Shrinking a hand but not the rest of a statue would probably not be considered okay by most DMs. Shrinking a door but not the entire building would probably be just fine. Seems roughly similar to a vehicle.

This is another point that hasn’t really been touched on—the diversity of races which the modern soldiers will encounter.

The modern soldiers will be recognizably human, and the defenders will have an idea of what to expect in terms of physical capability. But the modern soldiers—assuming no prior intel—will have never seen a halfling, an elf, or a half-orc before, to say nothing of less common sentient races.

This will probably not matter a great deal unless the difference is so great that popping a couple of rounds into center of mass fails to work. Then it will matter a lot.

Half orc? Not really different. Werewolf, very different.

I think it's pretty clear that the modern military gets trounced pretty hard when it runs into decently leveled magic or magical creatures, though they would certainly win against a traditional non magical force. You could write a pretty good story around the expedition, probably. But mostly, it'd be about attrition grinding them down, and folks needing to adapt to survive. This is a problem for militaries even here on earth...sustained expeditions in the next country over is extremely difficult to maintain for most armies, let alone in another world with different physics.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
You'll get a lot more incendiary options when talking air support, but the original premise was an infantry unit, yes?

Infantry battalion was what the OP suggested, which I’m assuming has an upper limit of about 1000 soldiers. I’m not an expert on the Army by any means, so I’m not sure what aircraft might be attached to a single battalion, apart from the drones mentioned earlier.

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
Ammunition in general is fairly difficult to set off by momentary heat. Even sustained heat, it takes a bit. You should certainly not toss ammunition into a campfire, but when people do that, it generally takes a bit before it goes boom.

Okay, interesting. It does sound like fireballs won’t be doing too much damage to ammo storage and etc.

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
Any decently sized city should have a decent spread of low level PC classes, so the presence of at least a decent handful of rangers can be assumed. If we're sticking with Silverymoon, it's a city literally built on a sacred site to the god of rangers, so it's probably going to be pretty heavy on them.

Very definitely. Silverymoon has two dozen rangers in their elite defense force (the Knights in Silver) and rangers are present in most of the smaller cities and settlements.

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
The concept of scouting should not be a foreign one to the people of Faerun.

Beyond this, there’s the Wild Scout prestige class in the Silver Marches supplement, focused on gathering intel through surveillance in the wilderness, with Nondetection and Commune with Nature as class abilities.

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
This will probably not matter a great deal unless the difference is so great that popping a couple of rounds into center of mass fails to work. Then it will matter a lot.

I was thinking more about some of the less-common races in Faerûn, such as deep gnomes, who can cast Blindness as an SLA, or the air genasi who can levitate and don’t need to breathe. Those won't stop any rounds per se, but might come in handy in other ways.

[Ragoscy]

I see that everyone is thinking of the US Army in this discussion. It's true that an Army Battalion would have only about 500 men. They would also be very limited in the scope of their capabilities. The Army tends to send units designed to the task at hand. So if this proverbial battalion was meant to patrol a desert, then they would have a lot of light armored vehicles and a bunch of reconnaissance gear. If they were meant to take a position then they would have artillery. They would be a specialized group meant for a narrow range of objectives.

On the other hand, the US Marines like to send in units that are broadly capable of a larger variety of missions. They like to say "Adapt and Overcome." They train with the mindset that the enemy will bring some surprises to the battlefield and any surprise is just one more obstacle to analyze and overcome. I don't think that a fantasy monsters or aliens or even magic would slow down a combat experienced Marine unit.

If it's a US Marine Infantry Battalion, then there could well over 1000 personnel and up to 2000. They could also be accompanied by an artillery battery, a platoon of combat engineers, a couple of platoons of armor, one of which would be armored recon, and a separate recon platoon. On top of that, a Marine Battalion has a real possibility of have air support attached as well. That's a lot of equipment that an Army Battalion would not have. I know all the same problems would be there for the Marines, but they are equipped and trained very differently than the Army.

I think most people just don't really know the capability of the modern military. Assault amphibious vehicles, mortars and rockets. They are all in the hands of the modern infantry. I don't think any dragon is going to shrug off a Javelin or a Tow-2 missile. And someone firing a belt fed grenade launcher is going to make for a bad day down range (the MK 19 can sustain 40 rounds a minute of 40 mm grenades). I tend to think that modern technology used intelligently would outclass magic and superheroes and alien monsters.

Though the main thing which has been stated is that without support and logistics, no modern military force is going to engage except as a last resort.

I also had another thought. If you dropped into Faerun and you had years to decades worth of combat experience, would you get character levels of some sort. What sort of character classes could they get or would they be some sort of strange hybrid. If magic and character levels work for one side, should they work for the other. If they Mages and fighter came to earth would they be just as squishy as any other human.

Oh well enough rambling.

[Tyndmyr]

Infantry battalion was what the OP suggested, which IÂ’m assuming has an upper limit of about 1000 soldiers. IÂ’m not an expert on the Army by any means, so IÂ’m not sure what aircraft might be attached to a single battalion, apart from the drones mentioned earlier.

Unit standards vary a bit depending on country, but US is probably among the higher combat power for a given unit, and will usually be somewheres around half that many. Aircraft are generally not attached at the battalion level(and a *lot* of aircraft are not even in the army at all, but instead in other services, particularly the USAF). It would be fair to assume a modest amount of ground vehicles and a bit of armor, though, for a US unit.

Perhaps something like 500 troops, three quarters of whom primarily use rifles, and the remainder of which have access to larger weaponry in addition to rifles. Plus some headquarters personnel that are probably not very heavily armed at all.

Okay, interesting. It does sound like fireballs wonÂ’t be doing too much damage to ammo storage and etc.

Single fireballs, probably not. If a larger fire is started, most definitely a problem. AOE spells are *more* of an issue for people. Even if you try to spread out, people come together to eat, plan, etc. An ammo storage area that is on fire is in deep trouble, but you can assume that precautions against fire have generally taken place.

The biggest problem is mostly casualties. Almost all units break hard at or before 50% casualties, which generally includes wounded. Illness and accidents can contribute to this, particularly in a strange land. This is...something close to a hard cap, and it's not particularly difficult to reach for an opposing force.

I was thinking more about some of the less-common races in Faerûn, such as deep gnomes, who can cast Blindness as an SLA, or the air genasi who can levitate and don’t need to breathe. Those won't stop any rounds per se, but might come in handy in other ways.

Spell like abilities definitely get into the magic problem. Magic is just....really good. Blindness, in real life with a firearm, makes a person largely ineffective at any significant range.

It's certainly within the realm of probability that wards, scrying, etc screw over the invaders due to early detection, for instance. How likely? Eh. That depends on a lot of variables I can't nail down too closely from the scenario. That said, it seems fairly likely the intruders will get detected one way or another. Someone'll report the disturbances eventually, folks will check it out, and even if everyone sent goes missing, that's the sort of Obviously Bad Result that garners more concern and resources thrown at mysterious problems. Also, seems like an obvious adventuring party hook.

I wouldn't consider the big epic level forces as a concern, at least initially, because Faerun manages to somehow foist major problems off on adventurers basically all the time, but even mid-range casters or spell like abilities pose a significant threat, even if it's not particularly flashy. Consider what Hallucinatory Terrain(3.5) could do to vehicles. Instead of flat grass, it's something more troublesome. This isn't super high level or exotic, just a level 4 core spell that can be fired from long range, and will persist most of the day with zero shenanigans.

Simple wards such as Protection from Arrows would render natives far, far harder to deal with. I don't think we need to propose high optimization levels to get problems, just a random mid level wizard taking an interest and willing to blow some spell slots would be enough to severely slow or injure such a unit. Any information gathered will almost certainly spread, and you'll have at least the city's defensive forces to contend with, which are...potent.

I think most people just don't really know the capability of the modern military.

Nah. If anything, the combat potential is vastly inflated in modern media. Folks always assume that, because I was in the air force, I probably flew a plane. Reality is significantly more boring.

Military vehicles might be impressive in the right context, but in steady use, they need a great deal of maint, and if they're seeing heavy combat, attrition will take a heavy toll, even if the opposition doesn't score a single kill.

The belt fed grenade launcher opening up will indeed be impressive for a short time, but will rapidly run dry on ammo, and require resupply. Even a fairly modest mage can do that*(along with a wild variety of other tricks), and not require much of anything in order to do it again tomorrow.

As for the actual mechanics, no idea. I tried to stay away from relying on hit dice or other highly mechanics specific elements, and assume that the are generalized abstractions. People are not *actually* acting in initative order, for instance, that's just a convenient gameplay representation of the world. We can assume that a high init means something reacts rapidly, though.

I'm not sure how saves work for SoD sorts of spells. Presumably something like Dismissal would treat these invaders as a valid target, and would probably work most of the time. I don't mind assuming that high powered weapons do fairly high damage amounts for the purposes of overcoming DR, but it seems like flat out immunity would remain a problem.

*Fireballs are only about once every six seconds, but they appear to have a larger blast radius that can be considered extremely lethal to most humans. Roughly 20 feet vs the 15ish of the grenade. So, as an area attack, they are roughly similar, assuming the wizard is using literally no wards or other spells.

It gets a LOT worse if we get into level 5-6 spells, where we start getting a higher proportion of spells for which there simply is no good effective counter.

Wall of Force: Utterly unfixable or bypassable without magic. Not only does it provide options for a quite secure way for hostile forces to directly observe the military, or take cover from them, it can be used offensively to obstruct travel. Slamming a vehicle into an invisible, immovable wall at speed is probably bad.

Nightmare: It merely requires a specific designation. "The commander of that army" should suffice. Also, they have to sleep, which, being humans, welp. And infinite range. They *do* get a save, but it's a will save. Unless you are taking a very kindly interperetation to D&D stat translation, this seems likely to go through, and if not, well, you can just cast again. It's basically just risk free assassinations that you can do from literally the far side of Faerun.

Magic Jar: The military is now living within a horror world that works according to rules they do not know, and every time they kill one threat, another of their own becomes the threat, and it isn't obvious who was taken. They might eventually figure it out, but possession isn't something they have a good way to fix.

Dominate Person: This one ought to be pretty self explantatory.

Symbol of Sleep: No hp limit, large aoe, cannot be countered by non magical means, can be left behind as a trap. Also has a pretty good duration, with a minimum duration of what, 90 minutes of unstoppable naptime? Any affected are basically casualties for the duration. Magic traps in general are pretty unstoppable, as they cannot even be found without triggering unless you're a rogue, and the DCs are relatively high.

Create Undead: Even the lowest CL of this can do things like create Ghouls. Yeah, guns probably beat ghouls most of the time, but any touch is paralysis, and the resulting Ghoul fever just chains and creates attrition. It's a zero risk throwaway attack for the caster that they can repeat mostly arbitrarily, though, and real world militaries have no counters for magical diseases.

Lesser Planar Binding: As above, pretty much, but for those enjoying a different flavor of disposable minion. Toss an earth elemental at them, and see how bog standard humans deal with something that has earth glide.

Pretty much all illusion and enchantment spells remain pretty horrific, and most necromancy they lack the obvious counters for. Plus, if you're unsubtle, you can just do things like Ice Storm from outside reasonable rifle range. Thats only a level 4 spell, and druids get it as well, so it's pretty darned available.

[oudeis]

I see that everyone is thinking of the US Army in this discussion. It's true that an Army Battalion would have only about 500 men. They would also be very limited in the scope of their capabilities. The Army tends to send units designed to the task at hand. So if this proverbial battalion was meant to patrol a desert, then they would have a lot of light armored vehicles and a bunch of reconnaissance gear. If they were meant to take a position then they would have artillery. They would be a specialized group meant for a narrow range of objectives.
...
If it's a US Marine Infantry Battalion, then there could well over 1000 personnel and up to 2000. They could also be accompanied by an artillery battery, a platoon of combat engineers, a couple of platoons of armor, one of which would be armored recon, and a separate recon platoon. On top of that, a Marine Battalion has a real possibility of have air support attached as well. That's a lot of equipment that an Army Battalion would not have. I know all the same problems would be there for the Marines, but they are equipped and trained very differently than the Army.

I have to ask the source of your personnel figures, because they seem a lot higher than the numbers in this article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battal...s_Marine_Corps

A United States Marine Corps battalion includes the battalion headquarters, consisting of the commanding officer (usually a lieutenant colonel, sometimes a colonel), an executive officer (the second-in-command, usually a major), the sergeant major, and the executive staff (S-1 through S-4 and S-6). The battalion headquarters is supported by a headquarters and service company (battery).
...
In the U.S. Marine Corps, an infantry or "rifle" battalion typically consists of a headquarters and service company, three rifle, or "line", companies (designated alphabetically A through M depending upon which battalion of the parent regiment to which they are attached) and a weapons company.
...
A battalion usually contains two to five organic companies (batteries in the artillery), with a total of 500 to 1,200 Marines in the battalion.

NOTE: Quotes edited for brevity.

[Vinyadan]

Blindness sounds like the definitive anti-person spell. It also has a decent range, at 100 ft+10/l. A bard could hide and cast it without leaving his hiding place, since it has no somatic component. It sounds particularly good against people manning turrets atop vehicles.

Taking a look at the Bard spell list, there also is Detect Thoughts, which would be very good to get to know the enemies, especially coupled with a distraction like hypnotic pattern. Suggestion could also be useful to collect information. Whispering wind could deliver a message miles away.

I think armoured vehicles can be made susceptible to fireballs. A wizard can cast knock on the fuel cap before the fireball. (unless the tank actually has one or more diaphragms beneath the cap). I think it would be an unlikely shot on a moving target, however. Would true strike help?
However, you could just open one of the doors and shoot the fireball inside, burning everyone. I could see a couple of fairly low-level wizards working in tandem, maybe setting up an invisibility sphere beforehand and a trench where to hide while they dimension door away.

Knock could also be used for infiltration in the camp, especially if there are fuel depots in it. Invisibility sphere, knock or carry a rogue (I am actually not sure that those caps are locked, but why not), then set non-magical fire to a few long, thin ropes, animate them, and have them climb the vehicles (a rope may be half cm thick and 10 m long, so climbing shouldn't be a problem) and enter the fuel tanks while you take your leave. Maybe add a Pyrotechnics spell to create a diversion.

I have to ask the source of your personnel figures, because they seem a lot higher than the numbers in this article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battal...s_Marine_Corps
NOTE: Quotes edited for brevity.

You weren't asking me, however it's possible that battalion was conflated with the Marine expeditionary unit (around 2200 men).

[Ragoscy]

You may be right that I am mistaken on the numbers. My actual numbers may not be accurate because they are from personal experience during Operation Desert Storm. For that I was a Corpsman for a mechanized infantry unit, so we were a lot heavier than your standard rifle company. And being a Corpsman I was a lot more impressed with the capability of the units than the Marines would be. Though I obviously felt that the Marines way outperformed the Army. That's cultural bias for you.