Modern soldiers vs. Faerun. What do you think happens?

[Tyndmyr]

Blindness sounds like the definitive anti-person spell. It also has a decent range, at 100 ft+10/l. A bard could hide and cast it without leaving his hiding place, since it has no somatic component. It sounds particularly good against people manning turrets atop vehicles.

I agree, that would definitely be strategically pretty useful. Blindness is probably even *more* effective in real life than in game, so regardless of precise resolution, it'd be handy.

Nearly any spellcaster with a few levels of spells is going to have, purely incidentally, have picked up something that will be handy.

Even something like Rope Trick is remarkably strategically useful. If the casters work together, or start even modestly reasonable spell combinations, they become far more dangerous, but even a random lone caster of relatively modest level poses a significant threat.

I think armoured vehicles can be made susceptible to fireballs. A wizard can cast knock on the fuel cap before the fireball. (unless the tank actually has one or more diaphragms beneath the cap). I think it would be an unlikely shot on a moving target, however. Would true strike help?

That might require an unreasonable amount of knowledge about how tanks work, which the Faerun natives would be unlikely to have. I believe that generally armored vehicles would have something of an advantage, but it's not insurmountable. People can't live in tanks forever, they need to get out. Even leaving aside ridiculously large monsters, rusting effects, transmutation, teleportation, etc, infantry have often worn down armor units in pretty mundane ways like just shooting them when they leave.

[ben-zayb]

Why not pit a well-trained, highly-financed, top tier RL military like in the US against the Flaming Fist or the forces under someone like Elminster, the Simbul, Szass Tam, and Blackstaff (the original one, if time period isn't locked to current story)? Likewise, if you are going to showcase only the poorly optimized magic users to defend the cities of Faerun like in the books, why wouldn't it have to be against a budget-constrained, poorly-trained, subpar, RL military force?

This way, you get to compare across varying optimization and power brackets. This also prevents Schrodinger's soldiers or magic users from being pitted against someone that is clearly way out of their league.

[Vinyadan]

Is it explicitly mentioned in any of the books? Not that I'm aware. Is it a sensible use of a widely available spell? Yes. Yes it is.

.

I haven't really read the books, but it looks like the obvious thing to do. In a way, such observing creatures were already in Tolkien, in both the Hobbit (talking birds) and the Lord of the Rings (Saruman's crows, Radagast's eagle, and especially the trees of Fangorn), with a model in rural societies that out of curiosity and also out of fear would immediately spread any news of unusual (or even usual) events. The model I had in mind instead had more to do with the old postal systems, although I suspect that the result would be pretty similar, as the awakened creatures would all know each other and effectively be their own society.

[Talakeal]

I don't think there is any way the real world force can win.

To me this is a lot like Tucker's Kobolds; modern technology seems scary if you charge right at it, but D&D has so many ways to come at the problem that there are just so many ways to come at the problem, many of which will render them totally helpless.

A modern regiment will be hopelessly outclassed by a single high level caster or high CR monster, but they will also be helpless against things like incorporeal undead or attacks from the astral / ethereal plane at any level. Heck, there are single spells that could probably wipe out a small modern army, things like symbols and various whether effecting magics.

Now sure, if the entire military of a first world nation devoted all of their resources to it, they could take just about anything Faerun could throw at them, but the moment a single epic level caster or deity entered the field, its over, they are just on a whole other level.


Also, people are suggested nuking faerun. I see a couple of problems with this, but most notably, how the heck are these nukes being delivered / guided?


Also, IMO, despite what some people are saying, armor is almost completely ineffective at stopping weapons from other eras, and this goes in both direction. Modern armor won't do much to stop medieval weapons unless they hit a steel trauma plate. Likewise, any modern rifle (and many handguns) is going to go right through any mediaeval armor, although enchantment or exotic materials might change the game.

[Tyndmyr]

Why not pit a well-trained, highly-financed, top tier RL military like in the US against the Flaming Fist or the forces under someone like Elminster, the Simbul, Szass Tam, and Blackstaff (the original one, if time period isn't locked to current story)? Likewise, if you are going to showcase only the poorly optimized magic users to defend the cities of Faerun like in the books, why wouldn't it have to be against a budget-constrained, poorly-trained, subpar, RL military force?

This way, you get to compare across varying optimization and power brackets. This also prevents Schrodinger's soldiers or magic users from being pitted against someone that is clearly way out of their league.

Mostly because that ends up just being an obvious scenario where magic wins.

Magic's pretty potent, and even mid level magic is pretty effective, but it at least brings up scenarios to consider. Decent access to mid-level casters probably trumps even fairly well equipped, trained and effective armies with superior numbers, bringing in the epic tier stuff just makes it brutally unfair.

Also, IMO, despite what some people are saying, armor is almost completely ineffective at stopping weapons from other eras, and this goes in both direction. Modern armor won't do much to stop medieval weapons unless they hit a steel trauma plate. Likewise, any modern rifle (and many handguns) is going to go right through any mediaeval armor, although enchantment or exotic materials might change the game.

I think most of that discussion was about armored vehicles.

Personal armor, I agree that it's probably not going to be super-effective, though helmets from both sides might oddly remain fairly viable, as their role has changed least.

[Vinyadan]

While antilife shell is said to be only usable "defensively"*, I wonder what would happen to the passengers if it were cast right in front of an incoming APC.

*"Forcing an abjuration barrier against creatures that the spell keeps at bay collapses the barrier", but what happens if the barrier is static and it's the creatures who are pushed against it by the vehicle they occupy?

[Ibrinar]

The description of how the spell works could really use more detail. I suppose the same thing as if someone outside throws or presses someone else against it which I assume aren't easy ways to break the spell so the question is just is the collision a hard stop or are the borders a bit elastic? There has to be a clarification for that somewhere while d&d has no motorized vehicles there should still be plenty situations where something pushes you against the barrier instead of the caster moving against you.

[Vinyadan]

The description of how the spell works could really use more detail. I suppose the same thing as if someone outside throws or presses someone else against it which I assume aren't easy ways to break the spell so the question is just is the collision a hard stop or are the borders a bit elastic? There has to be a clarification for that somewhere while d&d has no motorized vehicles there should still be plenty situations where something pushes you against the barrier instead of the caster moving against you.

Now that I think about it, the spell isn't really usable this way, since it's centered on the caster... The question fundamentally still stands, however, because it's the sort of last resort a cleric about to be run over could confusedly decide to try out.

[Gnoman]

Also, IMO, despite what some people are saying, armor is almost completely ineffective at stopping weapons from other eras, and this goes in both direction. Modern armor won't do much to stop medieval weapons unless they hit a steel trauma plate. Likewise, any modern rifle (and many handguns) is going to go right through any mediaeval armor, although enchantment or exotic materials might change the game.

That's outdated. Yes, earlier types of personal body armor performed much better against bullets than against knives, but those are mostly out of use. Any modern body armor will have been designed to mitigate that, because there's lots of sources of cutting on the battlefield.

[pendell]

If I were to write a story based on this theme, I'd rip off Xenophon's Anabasis

Spoiler

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Ten thousand Greek hoplites sign on as mercenaries with a pretender to the Persian throne. They march all the way into the center of Persia, where their employer is killed in battle. After the winner murders their officers at a "peace conference", the survivors make a long march all the way to the nearest Greek town on the Black Sea, several thousand miles away, across deserts and mountain passes, attacked by the King's soldiers and hostile locals all the way.

They didn't have enough food on the way, so they got what they needed by diplomacy or by force.

The major differences I can see are 1) Since there is no easy map showing how to get back home, the battalion is going to need to secure the co-operation of a high-level wizard or cleric who can help them research the path back home. 2) Once they know it, they will need to secure the available materials and expertise to effect this transition. 3) They will need to adapt local weapons, tactics, and expertise, since their own equipment will not last.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by pendell
If I were to write a story based on this theme, I'd rip off Xenophon's Anabasis....

I have my library's copy in my must-read pile, and I've been thinking about the parallels here.

One basic difference is that the Greeks knew that a way home was possible, and could achieve it on their own, whereas the modern battalion would probably need some sort of magical assistance, as you point out.

Also, the various Persian satraps harassing them on their journey home weren't trying to destroy them. Each satrap just wanted to hustle them out of his own territory and on to the next, so they could be someone else's problem. The situation in Faerûn is potentially more complex, although as always it depends on the initial setup and the battalion's original objective.

[pendell]

I have my library's copy in my must-read pile, and I've been thinking about the parallels here.

One basic difference is that the Greeks knew that a way home was possible, and could achieve it on their own, whereas the modern battalion would probably need some sort of magical assistance, as you point out.

Also, the various Persian satraps harassing them on their journey home weren't trying to destroy them. Each satrap just wanted to hustle them out of his own territory and on to the next, so they could be someone else's problem. The situation in Faerûn is potentially more complex, although as always it depends on the initial setup and the battalion's original objective.

Well, a relatively similar story shows up in the book DragonWall .
The Tuigan (who are relatively low magic stand in for the mongols; they HAVE wizards but the bulk of the fighting is done by light cavalry) invade Thay, the land of the Red Wizards.

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After the Tuigan defeat the Griffin Legion and slaughter a large number of the Thay army, the Red Wizards point the Tuigan of the neighboring land of Rashoman. "You want to go conquering? Those guys need conquering! Go over there and go conquer them! We'll even help you!"

The Tuigan, seeing a choice between attacking Rashoman with the assistance of the Red Wizards, and a full-on war with Thay which they will lose, take this offer. And roll on to the Western Kingdoms and the events of the novel Crusade.

This outcome is actually reasonable. Imagine you're a king of a small country. Do you get along with all of your neighbors? What if one of them is Zhentil Keep?

Well, in this case you have one of two choices:
1) Fight the extraplanar invaders yourself, which even if victorious will cost you people and resources and leave you in a worse position vis-a-vis your local enemies

or

2) Point the army at your enemies, maybe even give them supplies and provisions. So that either they will win and badly hurt your enemy, or they will lose. In which case, your enemy gets to pay all the costs of fighting, not you.

With clever diplomacy and a shrewd head, it's possible for a military leader to parley these local differences into a much less troublesome path to their goal, even to enlist help on the way. Say, parley with A to go through B's territory, then parley with B for provisions in exchange for something other than war to get to C, slay a local dragon for C in order to get to D... and keep on rolling.

After all, the military leader doesn't need the force to defeat their Faerun counterparts. They just need enough force to make them more trouble than they're worth to fight them, as opposed to buying them off or redirecting them. Sure, Elminster can destroy them by snapping his fingers, but is that really the best use of Elminster's time? Yes, you can divert mid to high-level mages to kill everyone, but what are your other enemies doing while you're dealing with this threat?

The Byzantines had a similar strategy. They found that earlier Roman tactics weren't terribly useful because Byzantium bordered the endless Asian steppe. There was no point in fighting the various nomad raiders who entered their territory because , if you did, you would have fewer troops and money to fight the next wave of raiders, who would certainly come as sure as sunrise. Far better to buy off the first wave and turn them back around, get them to fight the second wave themselves. If they win, the Byzantines are safe and they are not the ones doing the dying. If they lose, then the second wave is that much weaker, leaving them more vulnerable defeat or being turned around in their turn to fight wave 3. Repeat ad infinitum until the steppe peoples get gunpowder weapons.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Tyndmyr]

That's outdated. Yes, earlier types of personal body armor performed much better against bullets than against knives, but those are mostly out of use. Any modern body armor will have been designed to mitigate that, because there's lots of sources of cutting on the battlefield.

A lot of the military is still either not equipped with armor, or equipped with older sorts. I had a flak jacket, for instance, which is...vietnam era tech, and even that was only barely better than WW2 era vests. Those are still used. They're not very good against most weaponry, and unless it's a very niche circumstance, won't stop either bullets or arrows. They're mostly meant to reduce danger from shrapnel, which is not exceedingly helpful in the example.

Some soldiers may have better gear, though. Spec Ops traditionally does. Some soldiers will purchase better armor personally. You can get a bit of variation here.

But generally, modern armor is designed to protect vitals from bullets. Yes, the plate will also stop a knife, but you don't have plates everywhere. Most of your body can still be cut. Modern infantry doesnt have anything similar to the coverage of full plate. It's not really about the cutting resistance of Kevlar, but about how much just isn't armored for essential weight reasons.

[Talakeal]

That's outdated. Yes, earlier types of personal body armor performed much better against bullets than against knives, but those are mostly out of use. Any modern body armor will have been designed to mitigate that, because there's lots of sources of cutting on the battlefield.

Are you sure about this? I have been doing a fair bit of research recently, and everythingI have seen lists modern soft armors as “knife resistant” which can still be stabbed through on a good hit and do almost nothing against a spear or arrow.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I don't know why, but I suddenly started wondering: Obviously modern soldiers would slaughter an ordinary 15th Century force of knights and footmen, but how much of a game-changer is D&D magic? If, say, an infantry battalion attacked one of the larger cities of Faerun, or a regiment went to war with one of the notable nations, what would happen? I'd say bullets beat magic missiles, but getting into less straightforward combat, then magic can pull of some neat tricks, like mind control, teleportation, and summonings, just to name a few.

If a spellcaster summons something that can only be harmed by magic, then the modern soldiers aren't going to have any way of dealing with it. But just how common is medium-to-high-level magic in the Forgotten Realms, anyway? How would enchanted plate fare against rifle rounds?

Basically, how do you think these scenarios would play out?

First off, modern technology trumps magic in terms of raw force. Artillery shells fire for miles and kill/destroy everything within radii that dwarf any spell; a wizard standing at ground zero might not be able to throw a fireball out of an artillery shell's blast zone. This is, of course, not getting into ICBMs.
Modern technology also has a much broader proliferation through Earth's population than magic through Faerun's. Even "common" magic items that mimic cantrips are out of reach for all but the wealthy, noble, and adventurers; meanwhile, our consumer-grade tech can mimic some mid-level spells (Clairvoyance, Daylight, Locate Creature, Sending...), and military technology can mimic several more (Arcane Eye, Cloudkill, Move Earth, Scrying...)

If Faerun is going to win the war, it needs to get a war-winning spell or creature into the theater of war, and then have it win the war before Earth can capture their military/administrative centers (cities and castles). How practical this is depends a lot on the strategic objectives of each world and how united they are. I'm sure that if every being on Faerun was united in destroying our world they could make a bunch of allips or something and ship 'em through the portal to wreck Earth...but that doesn't seem like a plausible scenario.

The best advantage Faerun has, depending on strategic objectives and inter-world travel, is that a medieval world is really not optimized for modern economies. No rail lines, no utilities, not even any paved roads. The only practical way for Earth to supply its armies on Faerunian operations is by air, and that requires being able to either fly airplanes between the worlds or transport them to Faerun (and also get sufficient supplies to an operating base in Faerun). Or maybe they could ship supplies in by ship to an operating base on the coast, along with a few planes to resupply forces further inland?
On the other hand, medieval-style armies in the modern world would have a relatively simple logistical situation (in a vacuum). The main way medieval armies (generally) kept supplied is by "foraging," a euphemism that here refers to stealing food from whatever peasants lived in the area. Historically, this was limited primarily by population density and sometimes by how effective local forces were at stopping them. The modern world has a lot of people in it, and I'm not sure any municipal police department would stand up to a moderately-disciplined army, magic or no magic. As long as actual military forces weren't around to stop them, they'd be fine.



This discussion is kinda meaningless without any knowledge of geopolitics, strategic goals, and just how the hell these two worlds are connected. What does Earth want? What does Faerun want? How unified are the two worlds, and are there polities in each which would consider working for "the other side"? And, of course, what are the operational options for getting from the East Coast to the Sword Coast? These are questions far more critical to a military discussion than fireballs vs. artillery.

"Amateurs strategy. Professionals talk logistics." —General Omar Bradley?

[Gnoman]

Are you sure about this? I have been doing a fair bit of research recently, and everythingI have seen lists modern soft armors as “knife resistant” which can still be stabbed through on a good hit and do almost nothing against a spear or arrow.

You can cut them, but only with effort. It isn't as simple as "cutting passes right through" (which was fairly true of the older types, to where a good winter coat was at least as useful), and modern ceramics are so light that a weave of tiny plates is getting increasingly common.

[Tyndmyr]

You can cut them, but only with effort. It isn't as simple as "cutting passes right through" (which was fairly true of the older types, to where a good winter coat was at least as useful), and modern ceramics are so light that a weave of tiny plates is getting increasingly common.

Evidence of that claim?

Ceramic plates are generally still in SAPI configurations. Big ol plate on front and back. Maaaybe side plates. Helmet. That's it, and a lot of people are still running metal instead of ceramic. The helmet is probably some kind of aramid fiber setup, not metal or ceramic. Ceramic wouldn't even really make sense for a helmet, because you are generally more worried about physical impact there.

[Morgaln]

Malazan Book of the Fallen is a series of fantasy novels that, among other things, does explore how squads of marines using fairly modern tactics could be employed in a magical world.

[Hopeless]

You do realize if the poster's question comes true such a conflict only lasts until they get talking to locals and unless they're complete idiots they're going to figure out their limitations and like in Gate establish a beachhead around their entry point and gradually recon the area around them to insure they're secure.

Any war would be limited in scope until they know what they're up against.

The GATE series is about the Japanese dealing with this in a setting lacking high level magic barring some demi-gods and actual flying dragons nowhere near as dangerous as Smaug.

There's a sequel to that series dealing with the Navy which I'd like to see however do you really think they'd go on the war path like the Tuigan and others they aren't that stupid.

God I'd love a Stargate style series set around the GATE idea revealing all those worlds are linked and those games are the result of natives passing through Earth and telling their stories inspiring those settings unaware its loosely based on something that actually exists!

[M1982]

Until they run out of ammo/fuel they'll just roll over anything that tries to come at them with raw physical or "blasty" magical might.

They're #### if faced with magic that's just physically unassailable. E.g. incorporeal undead, a wizard attacking via astral projection from his extraplanar domain, etc.

[Edreyn]

Who said that in case of such an invasion from a fantasy world, Earth will fight honestly? No, our world will fight on our own conditions!

Hmm let's see...

1) Tanks that are made of material that is designed to withstand melee, kinetic and elemental attack
2) Snipers that can shoot at the range far enough to not even be seen by anyone
3) Satellites that can allow commanders to see all enemy movement, no matter what they do
4) Radars, sonars and other detectors of movement will make any invisibility spells literally useless
5) Drones that can explode on impact, without even putting humans in danger
6) Biologic and gas weapons can kill thousands, again without any risk to those who send them
7) Planes are thousands of kilometres above ground, unreachable by arrows and even magic, but able to dust everything beneath
8) Forests and man-made fortifications can easily be burnt by napalm and similar things
9) Thermobaric weapon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermobaric_weapon) will negate any attempts of drow or dwarves to attack from beneath
10) Aerial or aquatic creatures will lose a one-on-one fight to any plane or submarine
11) Machine guns will destroy ANY number of units charging them, as it happened in our world, that's why cavalry is no longer used
12) The trump card. One word: Nukes!

Now, what can they use against us?

1) Magic. Yes, it's unpredictable for us. But if we try to think:

A) Low level magic spells, like magic arrows won't be any more dangerous that modern machine guns.
B) Medium level magic, for example: Cloud kill type? Gas masks. Environmental suits at the worst case. They protect people from military gases and viruses, so will work against this too.
C) High level magic, like meteor shower? That's what are bunkers for. Bunkers can withstand usual bombs, so can withstand heated rocks falling from the sky. Also, there are means to destroy falling bombs\rockets with special tech, our country uses those. So, modern tech will shoot off falling rocks too.
D) Magic that can change the image? All armies have units trained to catch spies
E) Magical diseases? Those that can't be cured, can be quarantined. Isn't this what we can see now?
F) Adding after seeing previous post: incorporeal\astral\ether projections. If this works in our world, that let's think why? If they aren't physical bodies, what are they? Particles, waves or something similar? EMP is designed for this.
G) Finally, how many mages that can cast really complex spells can Faerunians deploy? Much less then a number of tech we have. Mages that have Divination spells will simply refuse to come.


2) Giant creatures? They are tough, but still made of meat. Machine guns and aircraft will smash them.

3) Golems and similar artificial creatures? Defenseless against modern bombs.

4) Clerical magic and outsiders. This can't really be discussed without discussing religion as well, so no choice but to ignore it.

5) High level mages and clerics can indeed be dangerous. What's best here is to assassinate them using targeted bombs or snipers. Absolutely not risk sending large groups against them, single sniper or even better a single plane. That's what modern armies to against terrorist organization leaders and it usually works.

[pendell]

Who said that in case of such an invasion from a fantasy world, Earth will fight honestly? No, our world will fight on our own conditions!

I'll take this one by one.

>1) Tanks that are made of material that is designed to withstand melee, kinetic and elemental attack
Tanks have no defense against magic.

>2) Snipers that can shoot at the range far enough to not even be seen by anyone
Fair enough, although snipers by themselves are not decisive.

>3) Satellites that can allow commanders to see all enemy movement, no matter what they do
This is Faerun. No satellites.

>4) Radars, sonars and other detectors of movement will make any invisibility spells literally useless
Only if the operators know what they're looking for.

>5) Drones that can explode on impact, without even putting humans in danger
As discussed elsewhere, those are of limited utility of the invading force can't resupply.

>6) Biologic and gas weapons can kill thousands, again without any risk to those who send them
We don't use biologic and gas weapons in the real world because they are of limited utility and can also wreck the very area you try to conquer. Besides which, Cause Disease and Stinking Cloud are available to Faerun as well.


>7) Planes are thousands of kilometres above ground, unreachable by arrows and even magic, but able to dust everything beneath

Thousands of meters above ground, Low Earth Orbit (LEO) starts at 160 km above ground). I also question that magic can't reach them.

>8) Forests and man-made fortifications can easily be burnt by napalm and similar things
Real-world militaries use napalm against guerrilla forces, and still lose.

>9) Thermobaric weapon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermobaric_weapon) will negate any attempts of drow or dwarves to attack from beneath

You need to know where the enemies are and you can't simply throw them around like firecrackers on a holiday.

>10) Aerial or aquatic creatures will lose a one-on-one fight to any plane or submarine
Debatable. A mage riding a dragon or flying themselves has magic missile, which is guaranteed no-miss. Most air-to-air missiles aren't designed for small organic targets. They could still engage with the 20mm or 30mm cannon, but it's still going to be difficult.

And, again, we're looking at the supply issue. If the earth forces can't resupply jet fuel and ammunition won't last.

Submarines are even worse. Most submarines ignore 'biological' signatures. They will have difficulties determining which are ordinary creatures and which are attempting to destroy the submarine. Probably not until its too laste.

>11) Machine guns will destroy ANY number of units charging them, as it happened in our world, that's why cavalry is no longer used

If the enemy is stupid enough to charge in lines across open ground , yes. Less useful in forest or tree cover or broken line of sight.

>12) The trump card. One word: Nukes!
Not as tactically useful as one might think. It's one thing to use a nuclear weapon against an armored formation of tanks; against most threats Faerun can muster it's simply overkill. Against really high level threats like an archmage they can defeat the attack by simply moving away from the point of aim.

As towards magic, I will let others discuss but the spell list is exhaustive and comprehensive enough it is essentially an "I win" button against anyone who does not themselves have the ability to dispel or counter.

Even removing archmages and high-level mages from the equation, I think the biggest problem the earth forces have is the ability to resupply. Modern military forces require massive amounts of POL, ammunition, and the like which cannot be foraged from Faerunian sources. If they cannot resupply their combat effectiveness is measured in hours, and even a no-magic medieval world will be able to defeat them under such conditions.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Traab]

Normally sniper rifles are not game changers, but when the real threats on faerun number about a dozen people? Things get a bit more interesting. Imagine if, with a single sniper round, you could shut down the entire ballistic missile array of a nation? Thats the level of impact a sniper bullet at the right target could have in this setting. Of course, that depends on how effective a sniper round would BE against said super mages. I know ive read a few of the silly D&D optimizing threads where you have epic wizards that are virtually unkillable due to all the protective and contingency effects they can setup in advance. But then again, these arent optimized super casters power gaming and exploiting every RAW until human rights organizations start petitions to stop the torturing of the rules.

[pendell]

Normally sniper rifles are not game changers, but when the real threats on faerun number about a dozen people? Things get a bit more interesting. Imagine if, with a single sniper round, you could shut down the entire ballistic missile array of a nation? Thats the level of impact a sniper bullet at the right target could have in this setting. Of course, that depends on how effective a sniper round would BE against said super mages. I know ive read a few of the silly D&D optimizing threads where you have epic wizards that are virtually unkillable due to all the protective and contingency effects they can setup in advance. But then again, these arent optimized super casters power gaming and exploiting every RAW until human rights organizations start petitions to stop the torturing of the rules.

Raise Dead and Resurrection can be used to undo the damage, yes? And once done, the mage in question will use Protection From Arrows ever after.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Edreyn]

An interesting discussion!
I, for some reason, thought of them coming to us, and not the other way around. But this is also interesting.

I'll answer your questions, then make post new arguments for the attackers.

3) This is Faerun. No satellites.
4) Only if the operators know what they're looking for.
9) You need to know where the enemies are and you can't simply throw them around like firecrackers on a holiday.
10) A mage riding a dragon or flying themselves has magic missile, which is guaranteed no-miss. Most air-to-air missiles aren't designed for small organic targets. They could still engage with the 20mm or 30mm cannon, but it's still going to be difficult.
Submarines are even worse. Most submarines ignore 'biological' signatures. They will have difficulties determining which are ordinary creatures and which are attempting to destroy the submarine. Probably not until its too late.
11) If the enemy is stupid enough to charge in lines across open ground , yes. Less useful in forest or tree cover or broken line of sight.

About this I will write among my new arguments.

Tanks have no defense against magic.

Yes, but what IS magic? Fireball is a ultra hot ball of *something*, moving very fast. Tanks can withstand fire, at least in some cases.
Magic missile, acid arrow and the like are also, if they exists, then they are made of something, some kind of material. Why it can't be blocked? If instead saying "it's magic" we try to explain how it works, we can also explain how it can be negated or blocked.

We don't use biologic and gas weapons in the real world because they are of limited utility and can also wreck the very area you try to conquer. Besides which, Cause Disease and Stinking Cloud are available to Faerun as well.

Okay, I guess you are right.

Thousands of meters above ground

My apologies, I mistyped.

If the enemy is stupid enough to charge in lines across open ground , yes. Less useful in forest or tree cover or broken line of sight.

If we attack them, for a few first battle they won't know how to fight against machine gun units.

Now, if we assume situation that we make the first move.
Any war starts with spying. Why would a modern army attack blindly? I think that what could happen:

A small force will be moved via portal to a secluded location. They will make a small camp and prepare equipment for small planes to spy around. Then, still without large forces, our people will make a larger airport capable of supporting bombardment planes and even small satellite-carrying rockets.
Only after they learn about local population centers, count and equipment of local armies, the invasion should begin.
But first of all, why even bother with sending a huge army? Again, if our guys move first, all they need is to bombard one large city.
Imagine: what will happen if Neverwinter will be turned into ash in a few seconds, or in worst case minutes just by one metal thing high above in the sky? Then parachute radios with loud volume to other cities and broadcast a message: "Surrender unconditionally or be destroyed!"
What would leaders of Athkatla, Baldur's Gate, Waterdeep etc do when they hear this? Will they dare to bite? No way! They will surrender instantly! The horror of being killed without even a chance of defense would break even most brave people.
Underground races would cave-in all entrances and pray that they will never be discovered.
Dragons, giants and other smaller communities of larger beasts might try to fight invaders. But there aren't way to much of them.
Also, evil dragons might be simply bribed. Our world doesn't need gold or magic items, invaders will go for Uranium and the like. Let dragons take all the gold in Faerun! They will even join invaders.

Good dragons or aquatic beasts can be a threat. But again, if our forces can prepare in advance, knowing what to expect, then weapons of plane\submarine will be changed accordingly, to fight biologic targets.

Who can be dangerous are illythids and aboleths. Telepathy can't be negated by modern means. But if they try to attack, they will also expose where they are coming from, and so allow to use vacuum bombs.

To summarize: modern armies won't fight blindly and fair. They will take time to get information and adapt to new environment and only then attack. And there won't even be need to send huge armies. A few bomb carries are enough. If we attack them, then it's much easier scenario.

[Traab]

Raise Dead and Resurrection can be used to undo the damage, yes? And once done, the mage in question will use Protection From Arrows ever after.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Fair point. I honestly dont recall how much use those spells got in the books as I mainly read the cleric quintet and the first dozen or so drizzt novels. But I do know the spell exists as I recall cadderly trying to rezz his girlfriend in book 5. But even for him, basically the epic cleric of the setting at that point, it was clearly a hard thing to do. Though circumstances being what they were it was understandable.

[Edreyn]

Raise Dead and Resurrection can be used to undo the damage, yes?

About this - how many clerics can actually use spells of this level and in large quantities? Especially in situation when high level casters will be first targets.

[pendell]

Yes, but what IS magic? Fireball is a ultra hot ball of *something*, moving very fast. Tanks can withstand fire, at least in some cases.

If you're attacking directly, yes. But how about Transmute Rock To Mud? That transmutes a 3m x 3m cube. An M1A1 Abrams tank is only 2.5m high. I would say that at the very least, the vehicle would sink up to the turret in mud and require the efforts of a recovery vehicle to get it back out again.

How about casting Create Water with the target being the crew compartment?

Or a mental attack that goes after the crews minds, bypassing the tank's armour?

Or ... I'm not sure of the spell, but what about summoning the equivalent of a mechanical gremlin? A modern AFV is a collection of thousands of maintenance problems just waiting to break. A bad spark plug, a bad distributor cap, a broken valve or a broken tube, and suddenly you don't have a tank, you have a 60-ton steel bunker. You wouldn't need these little gremlins to be particularly knowledgeable about mechanical engineering -- just get something small into where there are lots of tiny wires and other delicate equipment, so much for the tank.

Or there's polymorph spells that convert materials to jelly.

Or summoning a really powerful fire or earth elemental who can flip them over like children's toys.

If a really high level mage gets involved, and you only need one, this is an instant loss. So part of the scenario means finding a way to neutralize the involvement of the other side's high level casters.

But I agree that a military force from Earth wouldn't fight fair or stupidly. It's just that, as I've argued, they're more likely to recruit local troops and mages than they are to simply attack with direct force on force. Again, even if there ARE no high magic users they will not be a combat effective force for very long if they can't resupply.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Vinyadan]

You can actually completely paralyse one tank by casting two permanent walls of force, one in front of it, the other one behind it.

[Tyndmyr]

If you're attacking directly, yes. But how about Transmute Rock To Mud? That transmutes a 3m x 3m cube. An M1A1 Abrams tank is only 2.5m high. I would say that at the very least, the vehicle would sink up to the turret in mud and require the efforts of a recovery vehicle to get it back out again.

How about casting Create Water with the target being the crew compartment?

Or a mental attack that goes after the crews minds, bypassing the tank's armour?

Or ... I'm not sure of the spell, but what about summoning the equivalent of a mechanical gremlin? A modern AFV is a collection of thousands of maintenance problems just waiting to break. A bad spark plug, a bad distributor cap, a broken valve or a broken tube, and suddenly you don't have a tank, you have a 60-ton steel bunker. You wouldn't need these little gremlins to be particularly knowledgeable about mechanical engineering -- just get something small into where there are lots of tiny wires and other delicate equipment, so much for the tank.

Or there's polymorph spells that convert materials to jelly.

Or summoning a really powerful fire or earth elemental who can flip them over like children's toys.

If a really high level mage gets involved, and you only need one, this is an instant loss. So part of the scenario means finding a way to neutralize the involvement of the other side's high level casters.

But I agree that a military force from Earth wouldn't fight fair or stupidly. It's just that, as I've argued, they're more likely to recruit local troops and mages than they are to simply attack with direct force on force. Again, even if there ARE no high magic users they will not be a combat effective force for very long if they can't resupply.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I believe that you would generally need to draw line of effect for most such spells, which a tank would probably make difficult. Not impossible, mind you, but los is blocked from many directions.

Oddly, 3.5 has a wondrous item that *is* a tank, so it's not beyond the ruleset to give us some answers here. It's been replicated elsewhere as well, such as in Pathfinder. It goes by Apparatus of the Crab. Coupla hundred hp, and some hardness, but it is totally viable do destroy it with even melee attacks provided you're putting out enough damage to overcome the hardness. Now, it's entirely possible that this is not an exact equivalent for modern day tanks, but it at least sort of points us in a direction for how something like that would be modeled.

Who said that in case of such an invasion from a fantasy world, Earth will fight honestly? No, our world will fight on our own conditions!

Hmm let's see...

I'm going to take these point by point.

1) Tanks that are made of material that is designed to withstand melee, kinetic and elemental attack

Sufficiently hard attacks will destroy even armored targets. Now granted, a peasant with a spear is going to do basically nothing to a tank, but even a giant with a club could certainly damage it, let alone casters with decent spells.

Monsters also pose a threat. Rust monsters are one obvious mess, but anything incorporeal is also a problem.

2) Snipers that can shoot at the range far enough to not even be seen by anyone

The D&D world also has ways to avoid being seen, either via magic or stealth. Attacking from hiding is likely to be common for the real theats of each side. Once detected, snipers are not particularly impervious to harm, though.

3) Satellites that can allow commanders to see all enemy movement, no matter what they do

Faern lacks such satellites, so they should be irrelevant here. Even otherwise, spells such as darkness or rope trick most definitely should work to obscure movement. Or basically anything in the illusion school.

4) Radars, sonars and other detectors of movement will make any invisibility spells literally useless

Sonar is really only a thing underwater. Infantry units do not generally have submarines. Radar is useful, but detecting human sized targets is surprisingly not. Birds, weather, etc commonly produce decently sized returns, and ground clutter masks anything even vaguely close to terrain(this is why flying low is a common way for aircraft to avoid radar). It is generally not useful in this scenario.

5) Drones that can explode on impact, without even putting humans in danger

If it explodes on impact, it's generally a missile. Those are great, but are a resource issue. An infantry unit is likely to have a limited supply of these, and relatively modest in size(generally anti-tank/light AA weaponry). Since radar doesn't help, radar guided missiles are mostly not very good unless a dragon attacks or something.

6) Biologic and gas weapons can kill thousands, again without any risk to those who send them

Infantry units are not generally equipped with these. Even if they are, chem weapons are often much bulkier than portrayed, and would present a major supply issue. Using disease as a weapon is also a fairly risky strategy if you want to take the area. Your own people could be affected. Assuming our diseases affect each other, which is actually somewhat doubtful given how far many fantasy races diverge from ours, we would already need to contend with diseases from the fantasy world, and we have literally no way to cure magical diseases, while they can use magic to cure ours. Biological warfare is a straight up loss.

7) Planes are thousands of kilometres above ground, unreachable by arrows and even magic, but able to dust everything beneath

Everything has to land at some point. An infantry unit of this size will generally not have any attached aircraft, but even if they did, where would they land? If they came through the portal, would they not be vulnerable by doing so? Targeting infantry from extreme altitude is not terribly easy. Yeah, you could bomb the crap out of the city, but the most probable effect of this is getting the attention of bigger threats on Faerun.

8) Forests and man-made fortifications can easily be burnt by napalm and similar things

Deforestation on a vast scale is quite difficult. Also, not great, considering that literally burning everything on the land makes you into one of the big evils in faerun that attracts attention from the bigger players. Invading one city may not be something that the gods themselves care about, but turning absolutely everything into a burned wasteland? Druids, nature gods, wild creatures...they'll have objections.

9) Thermobaric weapon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermobaric_weapon) will negate any attempts of drow or dwarves to attack from beneath

You can absolutely burn out a tunnel after you discover it and secure the entrance, yes. If you don't discover this until after they've tunnelled into your camp, well, sucks to be you. It's also not something your average infantry unit has in their pockets.

10) Aerial or aquatic creatures will lose a one-on-one fight to any plane or submarine

Dragon vs fighter jet is pretty cool, but magic is also no joke. They also have a *lot* of HP and armor, plus damage reduction, and the military is woefully lacking in magic. It's probably possible for this to go either way.

Again, submarines don't really matter.

11) Machine guns will destroy ANY number of units charging them, as it happened in our world, that's why cavalry is no longer used

That's not the primary function of machine guns. They're surpression/area denial, mostly.

Light cavalry is still used. Heavy cavalry was still used successfully at large scale as recently as WW2. This was long after machine guns were common.

12) The trump card. One word: Nukes!

There are literal gods, and spells like Wish. Escalating as high as possible is *not* a good idea.

Now, what can they use against us?

1) Magic. Yes, it's unpredictable for us. But if we try to think:

A) Low level magic spells, like magic arrows won't be any more dangerous that modern machine guns.

Eh, even low level spells are a significant threat. Sleep, color spray...these are ludicrously effective. Range is not amazing, but they target a lot more people. A guy with a rifle at perhaps two hundred yards is aiming at one person, and will probably miss frequently in most cases. A guy casting sleep is hitting a 10 foot radius burst. Other things like True Strike nearly guarantee otherwise improbable kills. A longbow vs a rifle is a loss, but a longbow that doesn't miss? That's a problem.

Level one core spells are still really good.

B) Medium level magic, for example: Cloud kill type? Gas masks. Environmental suits at the worst case. They protect people from military gases and viruses, so will work against this too.

Fighting in MOPP 4 frigging sucks. It's very hot, it's heavy, it slows you down a ton and makes you way less effective. You also need to spend a lot more time resting(IIRC, it was fifteen minutes of every hour at a minimum). It's also not super stealthy. If you're making troops wear this, they going to lose a whole bunch of other advantages.

And it can only be expected to be effective at gas attacks, which is...only a couple of medium level spells. If you read the thead, you'll see that a LOT of spells pose a significant problem, not merely gas spells.

C) High level magic, like meteor shower? That's what are bunkers for. Bunkers can withstand usual bombs, so can withstand heated rocks falling from the sky. Also, there are means to destroy falling bombs\rockets with special tech, our country uses those. So, modern tech will shoot off falling rocks too.

Leaving aside that the infantry unit will generally lack these, dealing with hostiles in underground rooms and tunnels is not a weird thing for the residents of Faerun.

D) Magic that can change the image? All armies have units trained to catch spies

I'm going to flat out say that this statement is incorrect.

People can, obviously, sometimes notice that something is off, but unit of spy catchers? Hah, no. Counterintelligence isn't usually a field function.

E) Magical diseases? Those that can't be cured, can be quarantined. Isn't this what we can see now?

Werewolves and vampires and such pose additional risks for quarantining. Anything incorporeal and infectious literally can't be quarantined whatsoever.

F) Adding after seeing previous post: incorporeal\astral\ether projections. If this works in our world, that let's think why? If they aren't physical bodies, what are they? Particles, waves or something similar? EMP is designed for this.

Who knows? We may be able to tech up some countermeasures eventually, but there are several different types of threats that are wholly outside our tech.

G) Finally, how many mages that can cast really complex spells can Faerunians deploy? Much less then a number of tech we have. Mages that have Divination spells will simply refuse to come.

Number of mages vs a number of tech doesn't...make sense. Those are not the same sort of things. I'm not sure that numbering techs in this way is even a vaguely reasonable way to compare.

As covered in the thread, magic is reasonably common on Faerun.

[quote]2) Giant creatures? They are tough, but still made of meat. Machine guns and aircraft will smash them.[/uote]

Machine guns make many attacks, not particularly powerful attacks. A machine gun against tank's armor plate is usually about as futile as hitting it repeatedly with a spear. Repetition is not great if you can't even partially overcome armor. Many creatures have resistances or immunities that would render a bullet ineffective. Some also have abilities that would render direct melee combat unnecessary.

4) Clerical magic and outsiders. This can't really be discussed without discussing religion as well, so no choice but to ignore it.

Discussing D&D religion is fine. D&D religion doesn't exist in the real world.

5) High level mages and clerics can indeed be dangerous. What's best here is to assassinate them using targeted bombs or snipers. Absolutely not risk sending large groups against them, single sniper or even better a single plane. That's what modern armies to against terrorist organization leaders and it usually works.

How the hell would we know who all the magical people are in advance? And if you *start* hunting wizards down, that's a really good way to make every wizard suddenly very interested in you. A dude with a rifle in a cave is a very different story frm high level magic.

High tier mages and clerics can engage in assassination as well. This probably goes terribly.

Normally sniper rifles are not game changers, but when the real threats on faerun number about a dozen people? Things get a bit more interesting. Imagine if, with a single sniper round, you could shut down the entire ballistic missile array of a nation? Thats the level of impact a sniper bullet at the right target could have in this setting. Of course, that depends on how effective a sniper round would BE against said super mages. I know ive read a few of the silly D&D optimizing threads where you have epic wizards that are virtually unkillable due to all the protective and contingency effects they can setup in advance. But then again, these arent optimized super casters power gaming and exploiting every RAW until human rights organizations start petitions to stop the torturing of the rules.

As has already been covered in this thread, you can't shake a stick in Faerun without hitting three wizards, two clerics, and a druid in a pear tree. Even with the modest "attack a single city" scenario, we have dozens of spellcasters with moderate level spells or higher and a city-sponsored magical defense force.

I don't assume that they are hyper optimized, but I assume they have a decent mix of spells, basic awareness of tactics because they are literally trained for that, and probably use a couple of sensible buffs. We don't need a tippyvese scenario, just a wizard happening to cast a decently useful spell. Projectile attacks are not extremely unusual, I would be suprised if the city's usual wards did not consider mundane attacks.

With regards to the raise dead thing...the lowest reasonably available ressurection spell is Reincarnate at Druid 4. Given the availability of mid tier casters, it is essentially guaranteed that someone in the city can raise the dead. They can do so in fairly limited numbers, however. Saving a powerful hero defending the city? Sure. Saving masses of the city if bombed or something? No.