How to reliably Planar Bind Sul Khatesh?

[OgataiKhan]

Sul Khatesh from Eberron is a beast. Probably the strongest officially printed monster in D&D 5e.

She has it all: at will Shield and Counterspell, an impressive spell list, Change Shape, legendary actions that break concentration, immunity to nonmagical damage, and a huge antimagic field that stops most classes from hurting her at all.

But, she would be cool to have on your side. So my question is: if you were free to design any level 20 party you want (with no specific magic items except for +0 weapons), what's the simplest RAW way you can think of to reliably land a Planar Binding on Sul Khatesh, with no chance of failure?

We'll assume that all die rolls will go against us and that Sul Khatesh will only use her Legendary Resistances against Planar Binding. She will always win initiative and, if she ever gets a turn, she'll use Arcane Cataclysm and we lose.

It seems to me that you need at least three characters: two Chronurgy Wizards and one character who can cast Gate.
Here is the plan:

1) The Wizards both use a 7th level slot to create a Simulacrum, having consumed no other resources.

2) The four Wizards (two real ones and two Simulacra) ready a Wish spell for as soon as Sul Khatesh appears.

3) The Gate caster casts Gate summoning Sul Khatesh from Eberron.

4) The four Wizards each release their Wish into a Planar Binding on Sul Khatesh. Sul Khatesh can't Counterspell because she wasn't there when the Wish spells were first cast and she can't use Legendary Actions because no turn ended.

5) The four Wizards all use Convergent Future to force a fail on the save for Planar Binding. Sul Khatesh uses a Legendary Resistance on the first three and is bound by the fourth.

Can you think of a way to do this with just two or even one character?

Edit: aaaand I just realised this doesn't work because Convergent Future requires a reaction and so does releasing a readied spell, so we'd need four characters instead of three, all Chronurgy Wizards with Simulacra. One casts Gate and uses one Convergent Future, four ready Wish, the remaining three use the other three Convergent Futures.

[Aett_Thorn]

Have you tried chocolates and flowers? Or maybe a puppy?

[Unoriginal]

Sul Khatesh from Eberron is a beast. Probably the strongest officially printed monster in D&D 5e.

I mean Tiamat's still stronger.

She has it all: at will Shield and Counterspell, an impressive spell list, Change Shape, legendary actions that break concentration, immunity to nonmagical damage, and a huge antimagic field that stops most classes from hurting her at all.

But, she would be cool to have on your side. So my question is: if you were free to design any level 20 party you want (with no specific magic items except for +0 weapons), what's the simplest RAW way you can think of to reliably land a Planar Binding on Sul Khatesh, with no chance of failure?

We'll assume that all die rolls will go against us and that Sul Khatesh will only use her Legendary Resistances against Planar Binding. She will always win initiative and, if she ever gets a turn, she'll use Arcane Cataclysm and we lose.

It seems to me that you need at least three characters: two Chronurgy Wizards and one character who can cast Gate.
Here is the plan:

1) The Wizards both use a 7th level slot to create a Simulacrum, having consumed no other resources.

2) The four Wizards (two real ones and two Simulacra) ready a Wish spell for as soon as Sul Khatesh appears.

3) The Gate caster casts Gate summoning Sul Khatesh from Eberron.

4) The four Wizards each release their Wish into a Planar Binding on Sul Khatesh. Sul Khatesh can't Counterspell because she wasn't there when the Wish spells were first cast and she can't use Legendary Actions because no turn ended.

5) The four Wizards all use Convergent Future to force a fail on the save for Planar Binding. Sul Khatesh uses a Legendary Resistance on the first three and is bound by the fourth.

Can you think of a way to do this with just two or even one character?

You need to know the target's true name for a Gate spell. Is Sul Khatesh her actual true name?

Edit: aaaand I just realised this doesn't work because Convergent Future requires a reaction and so does releasing a readied spell, so we'd need four characters instead of three, all Chronurgy Wizards with Simulacra. One casts Gate and uses one Convergent Future, four ready Wish, the remaining three use the other three Convergent Futures.

I mean you could have Diviners use Portents.

[OgataiKhan]

I mean Tiamat's still stronger.



You need to know the target's true name for a Gate spell. Is Sul Khatesh her actual true name?



I mean you could have Diviners use Portents.

Tiamat has a higher CR, but I don't think she's stronger. You can actually hurt her. Sul Khatesh will make all your weapons non-magical, all your spells fail, all your summons disappear, and she'll laugh at you with her nonmagical attacks immunity when only Paladins, Zealots, and Monks can inflict any significant damage

Judging by the wiki "Sul Khatesh" seems to be her real name, her title being "Keeper of Secrets".

Portents you need to roll. How often will you get four portent rolls in the 1-3 range, needed to have her fail the Planar Binding save?

[JackPhoenix]

Sul Khatesh can change her shape to forms invalid for Planar Binding. There's nothing you can do about that.

[Unoriginal]

Tiamat has a higher CR, but I don't think she's stronger. You can actually hurt her. Sul Khatesh will make all your weapons non-magical, all your spells fail, all your summons disappear, and she'll laugh at you with her nonmagical attacks immunity when only Paladins, Zealots, and Monks can inflict any significant damage

It's not that hard to get Sul out of her antimagic zone, though.

Judging by the wiki "Sul Khatesh" seems to be her real name, her title being "Keeper of Secrets".

There's a difference between "true name" and "name you use". People can't just Gate in Baphomet or Zariel despite one of their name being fairly known.

Portents you need to roll. How often will you get four portent rolls in the 1-3 range, needed to have her fail the Planar Binding save?

Well give the wizards a few months and it's bound to happen.

[MaxWilson]

There's a difference between "true name" and "name you use". People can't just Gate in Baphomet or Zariel despite one of their name being fairly known.

The spell doesn't say "true name," it just says name and clarifies that nicknames/titles/pseudonyms don't count.

When you cast this spell, you can speak the name of a specific creature (a pseudonym, title, or nickname doesn't work).

I mean, you just conceded yourself that Baphomet and Zariel are legitimately names in your own mind--you didn't write "one of their nicknames" or "one of their pseudonyms".

As for why Baphomet and Zariel don't get Gated normally, that probably has more to do with the other clause, "Deities and other planar rulers can prevent Portals created by this spell from opening in their presence or anywhere within their domains."

@JackPhoenix form isn't relevant. If you're Wishing for Planar Binding, she doesn't have time to shapechange into a non-fiend form, and afterwards either it will continue to work anyway (because the DM rules that targeting restrictions apply only initially, not to ongoing effects) or you'll simply order her not to change form (because you'll already know that the DM has ruled the opposite way on ongoing effects, and you've been using that ruling all along to e.g. break curses/penalty conditions that apply only to humanoids just by Polymorphing each other briefly into animal form).

Chronurgist wizards, besides being broken strong, also don't exist outside of Exandria, where Sul Khatesh doesn't exist. It doesn't seem quite cricket to rely on them.

[JackPhoenix]

@JackPhoenix form isn't relevant. If you're Wishing for Planar Binding, she doesn't have time to shapechange into a non-fiend form, and afterwards either it will continue to work anyway (because the DM rules that targeting restrictions apply only initially, not to ongoing effects) or you'll simply order her not to change form (because you'll already know that the DM has ruled the opposite way on ongoing effects, and you've been using that ruling all along to e.g. break curses/penalty conditions that apply only to humanoids just by Polymorphing each other briefly into animal form).

Nothing prevents her from being in humanoid form long before she gets anywhere near the wizard.

[Mellack]

The idea of readying a spell to avoid counterspell came up in another thread. It would definitely require a DM ruling as if it is valid. Either you can cast a spell without a valid target in range, or you are casting it in the reaction so it can still be countered.

[MaxWilson]

Nothing prevents her from being in humanoid form long before she gets anywhere near the wizard.

Meh. A distinction without a difference. She loses a lot of her formidable abilities including anti-magic, and it just results in her getting Dominated and THEN Planar Bound by the Chonurgists, after they make her shift back to fiend form. All you're doing is adding a scrying/divination requirement beforehand--Augury would be enough. "Should we prepare our spells to bind Sul Khatesh in fiend form as soon as she is Gated in? Weal/woe?"

A much bigger problem is the fact that you can't actually use Sul Khatesh to her full tactical potential, because her antimagic zone will wipe out your Planar Binding. So you might as well just True Polymorph the Tarrasque into Sul Khatesh instead and use that, because either way you can't use your Sul Khatesh in an antimagic zone.

[Benny89]

She is ok, but nothing really over the top of other "top" monsters. Well build party can still breeze through her, even some solo powerbuilds could knock out most of it's HP in one turn.

I don't think there is anyway to Planar Bind Sul Khatesh. Change Shape already can screw it up easy without even rest of the stuff to consider.

[Unoriginal]

The spell doesn't say "true name," it just says name and clarifies that nicknames/titles/pseudonyms don't count.

When you cast this spell, you can speak the name of a specific creature (a pseudonym, title, or nickname doesn't work).

I mean, you just conceded yourself that Baphomet and Zariel are legitimately names in your own mind--you didn't write "one of their nicknames" or "one of their pseudonyms".

As for why Baphomet and Zariel don't get Gated normally, that probably has more to do with the other clause, "Deities and other planar rulers can prevent Portals created by this spell from opening in their presence or anywhere within their domains."

Seems I was misremembering the text, then.

Chronurgist wizards, besides being broken strong, also don't exist outside of Exandria, where Sul Khatesh doesn't exist. It doesn't seem quite cricket to rely on them.

Well tb100%f Exandria and Eberron are both in the Material Plane, even if you can't use planar travel to go to/from Eberron. Mordenkainen has been to Eberron via teleportation, and in Descent into Avernus the PCs can meet both Mordenkainen (or at least his simulacrum, IIRC) and Arkhan the Cruel, who has visited Exandria.

Still even assuming that this many lvl 20 Chronurgists exist in Exandria (unlikely), they'd need to somehow learn about Sul and Eberron, then seriously mess around to get there.



Regardless, Sul Khatesh isn't that tough, all things considered, she's just good against casters.

[OgataiKhan]

Regardless, Sul Khatesh isn't that tough, all things considered, she's just good against casters.

Her strength comes from the fact that she's immune to both casters and most of the damage martials can deal because magic weapons become nonmagical in her antimagic field and can't harm her.

To people saying "she's not that difficult", how would you defeat her without a party relying on Monks, Improved Divine Smite, or a Zealot's radiant damage? Not all parties have one or more of these, and I doubt grappling her and dragging her out of the huge antimagic zone would work before she kills you.

[MaxWilson]

Regardless, Sul Khatesh isn't that tough, all things considered, she's just good against casters.

Well, I disagree there. As an adversary, she's extremely tough, but for reasons more related to strategic power than tactical power. I'd rather have Tiamat mad at me than Sul Khatesh. Either of them is capable of destroying armies (Foresight + AC 27 + nonmagical weapon immunity + at-will Fireball is quite good for army-killing), but the thing is... you can't run away from Sul Khatesh. Tiamat's strategic mobility is just awful, not much better than a human on horseback--she could easily get stuck for weeks flying between cities. Sul Khatesh can just Gate you into her presence and destroy you in a pre-cast Arcane Cataclysm antimagic zone. I mean, seriously, how can you avoid that?

Tiamat would win a 1-on-1 cage fight, but Sul Khatesh has the ability to avoid cage fights with Tiamat.

But... I guess as a minion, Tiamat is better, since the controlling wizard can supply the strategic mobility.

Spoiler: True Polymorph

Show

Hypothetical for DMs: if you've got Tiamat already, can you True Polymorph her into a Sul Khatesh if you want? I.e. do Sul Khatesh's abilities come from being a kind of creature in the sense the True Polymorph would recognize ("another kind of creature... any kind you choose whose Challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's")? I think I'd be inclined to rule "no" but a lot of DMs seem to let you True Polymorph stuff into anything they have a stat block for including specific individuals.

P.S. FWIW, in a cage fight where both sides get full Legendary Actions, Sul Khatesh (with Foresight already up) does 146.41 DPR per round via ten Arcane Blasts per round, which results in 116.41 DPR after regeneration, and kills Tiamat in 6 rounds. Tiamat does 32.23 damage with her claw/claw/tail routine (AC 27 + disadvantage from Foresight means she only hits 42% of the time, and her claw/claw/tail damage isn't that high), plus another 67.5 from the Black Dragon breath weapon (Sul Khatesh cannot ever make the save) and 19.52 from the Black Dragon bite, for a total of 119.25, which kills Sul Khatesh in 4 rounds. So Tiamat definitely wins the cage match, but it's almost purely on the strength of Sul Khatesh's relative vulnerability to acid.

[Mutsuhat]

Honestly i would prefer to bind Rak Tulkesh, at least on a hypothetical faillure you won't get charmed by a dc26 mass suggestion, or obliterate with her other stuff. And using a spell caster as a minion seems way more complicated than worth, even more so for the keeper of secret (even tho she probably wouldn't mind being set free, even if she has to do the binding of some adventurer for a very short time)

If you like bugs you can also go with the cr 23 overlord in "exploring Eberron" (not official, but really usefull if you play in Eberron).

[MaxWilson]

If you like bugs you can also go with the cr 23 overlord in "exploring Eberron" (not official, but really usefull if you play in Eberron).

I assume you mean Valaara, right? I'm pretty sure that Valaara is a daelkyr, not an Overlord: abomination, not fiend, so not subject to Planar Binding.

[Mutsuhat]

I assume you mean Valaara, right? I'm pretty sure that Valaara is a daelkyr, not an Overlord: abomination, not fiend, so not subject to Planar Binding.

My apologise , you are right ! It was weird that she was weaker than the other. Makes more senses !

[NoxMiasma]

Tragically, I think the answer here is "The DM says no.", or at least "The DM makes you do an epic-level quest for it." I think this mainly because the statted-up Sul Khatesh is not actually a discrete and entire creature. It's the expressed aspect of an Overlord, functionally a God of Evil for the Eberron setting. The problem is that Sul Khatesh, as given numbers, is how that power is expressed when still partially contained by the sacrifice of every single coatl and other native celestial in Eberron, and quite frankly, I don't think you can Bind a creature that's still sealed, and once it's out completely, Sul Khatesh's stat's are just: "You Lose"

[Rendil]

Sul Khatesh from Eberron is a beast. Probably the strongest officially printed monster in D&D 5e.

She has it all: at will Shield and Counterspell, an impressive spell list, Change Shape, legendary actions that break concentration, immunity to nonmagical damage, and a huge antimagic field that stops most classes from hurting her at all.

But, she would be cool to have on your side. So my question is: if you were free to design any level 20 party you want (with no specific magic items except for +0 weapons), what's the simplest RAW way you can think of to reliably land a Planar Binding on Sul Khatesh, with no chance of failure?

We'll assume that all die rolls will go against us and that Sul Khatesh will only use her Legendary Resistances against Planar Binding. She will always win initiative and, if she ever gets a turn, she'll use Arcane Cataclysm and we lose.

It seems to me that you need at least three characters: two Chronurgy Wizards and one character who can cast Gate.
Here is the plan:

1) The Wizards both use a 7th level slot to create a Simulacrum, having consumed no other resources.

2) The four Wizards (two real ones and two Simulacra) ready a Wish spell for as soon as Sul Khatesh appears.

3) The Gate caster casts Gate summoning Sul Khatesh from Eberron.

4) The four Wizards each release their Wish into a Planar Binding on Sul Khatesh. Sul Khatesh can't Counterspell because she wasn't there when the Wish spells were first cast and she can't use Legendary Actions because no turn ended.

5) The four Wizards all use Convergent Future to force a fail on the save for Planar Binding. Sul Khatesh uses a Legendary Resistance on the first three and is bound by the fourth.

Can you think of a way to do this with just two or even one character?

Edit: aaaand I just realised this doesn't work because Convergent Future requires a reaction and so does releasing a readied spell, so we'd need four characters instead of three, all Chronurgy Wizards with Simulacra. One casts Gate and uses one Convergent Future, four ready Wish, the remaining three use the other three Convergent Futures.

I think i found a way for a single chronurgy wizard to reliable bind Sul Khatesh.

As a level 20 wizard with all of your spellslots, you create 10 simulacrums*. One simulacrum (the last one created) uses Gate to summon Sul Khatesh (let's assume that it works), the other 5 of you release (as a reaction) their readied Wish into a Planar Binding cast on Sul Khatesh, and the other five use Convergent Future (as a reaction) to each force a fail on each saving throw. Even if she uses 3 legendary resistances and 1 reaction for Counterspell, she will still fail the last one of the five saving throws and will be bound to your will.

*All you need to do is create 1 simulacrum (cost 1500 gold pieces) and then use the level 9 spell slot of the simulacrum you just created, to use Wish to create the next one, repeat until you have 6 simulacrums and the last one has its level 9 spell slot intact so that it can cast Gate. Then you create the other 4 needed simulacrums the old fashioned way with a level 7 simulacrum spell (cost 6000 gold pieces) so that these also have their level 9 spell slot. Total preparation time 5 days and total cost 7500 gold pieces.

[Rendil]

Then once she is bound, you can rest, and then cast Planar Binding on her again, with a level 9 spell slot, ordering her to willingly fail the save, to not resist the spell, so that she is in your service for a year. Then you can repeat indefinitely, for as long as you like.

[MaxWilson]

Then once she is bound, you can rest, and then cast Planar Binding on her again, with a level 9 spell slot, ordering her to willingly fail the save, to not resist the spell, so that she is in your service for a year. Then you can repeat indefinitely, for as long as you like.

I don't know if you can order her to willingly fail the save, although you could order her not to use her Legendary Resistances, assuming both you and she know in-character that there is any such thing. (One of the many things I hate about legendary resistance is that it's not clear what "it can choose to succeed instead" means, in-character.)

[Pandamonium]

I'm probably missing something but isn't the issue keeping Sul present and "harmless" for the full hour of casting?

[MaxWilson]

I'm probably missing something but isn't the issue keeping Sul present and "harmless" for the full hour of casting?

That's why you Wish (Planar Binding VIII) instead of casting Planar Binding normally.

In general Wish is great for speeding up spells that you want to cast in combat but otherwise can't, like Symbol of Insanity and Druid's Grove. Wish (Planar Binding) is especially great for Diviners and (blech, OP) Chronurgists. And yes, obviously Simulacrum chaining can get you pretty much anything, if the DM hasn't nerfed Simulacrum for being the most OP spell in the entire game.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: how about how to reliably bind posters to the Forum Rules?