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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Need suggestions for Dweomer Keeper's Mantle of Spells class ability picks!

    Hellow Fellow Scribes...

    I am looking for suggestions for the best wizard spells to chose for Mantle of Spells class ability of the Dweomer Keeper. Use all official sources, including Dungeon and Dragon Magazine...

    So far I was thinking:

    1) Wish
    2) Gate
    3) Shapechange
    4) Greater Teleport
    5) ...

    However, I don't know if these are good choices and I would therefore love to see what spells you guys would choose!

    Thanks in advance!
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Need suggestions for Dweomer Keeper's Mantle of Spells class ability picks!

    First of all, you can't pick higher level spells than you can cast when you gain the class feature. So the spells you're allowed to pick really depend on what level you start taking the class and how soon you max it out. If you go Caster 5/ Dweomerkeeper your first mantle choice needs to be a 3rd level or lower spell. If you go Caster + PrCs 10/ Dweomerkeeper, you can pick one 6th, one 7th, one 8th, and two 9th level spells, assuming you do it right and don't lose any caster levels of your primary class.

    So include your build, or at least when you're taking each odd-numbered Dweomerkeeper level relative to your spellcaster level.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Need suggestions for Dweomer Keeper's Mantle of Spells class ability picks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    First of all, you can't pick higher level spells than you can cast when you gain the class feature. So the spells you're allowed to pick really depend on what level you start taking the class and how soon you max it out. If you go Caster 5/ Dweomerkeeper your first mantle choice needs to be a 3rd level or lower spell. If you go Caster + PrCs 10/ Dweomerkeeper, you can pick one 6th, one 7th, one 8th, and two 9th level spells, assuming you do it right and don't lose any caster levels of your primary class.

    So include your build, or at least when you're taking each odd-numbered Dweomerkeeper level relative to your spellcaster level.
    Good point... The character is Cleric 3, Wizard 7, Dweomer Keeper 10, Arch Mage 5, Arcane Avatar 5 (3rd party), Human Paragon 2

    We play D&D 3.5!

    Thanks again!
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Need suggestions for Dweomer Keeper's Mantle of Spells class ability picks!

    So assuming you're advancing Wizard casting with it, you can pick a 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th level spell if you take class levels in the order you listed them.

    Why not Cleric 3/ Wizard 1/ Human Paragon 3/ Mystic Theurge 5?

    You can have some/all of the Raiment of the Four set in MIC (at double price to be slotless) to be able to spontaneously cast a few important spells. There's also the option to get a custom Runestaff (MIC p224) to get spontaneous access to whatever spells you want a few times/day. You'll also want Uncanny Forethought from EoE, which means you can spontaneously cast any spell you know, but all of those options have daily limits though.

    Archmage requires 7th level spells, Arcane Avatar requires 6th level spells, Human Paragon can be taken any time. So let's say you're going (in this order) Cleric 3/ Wizard 1/ Human Paragon 3/ Mystic Theurge 5/ Dweomerkeeper 3/ Arcane Avatar 5/ Archmage 5/ Dweomerkeeper 7, you can pick a 5th, a 6th, and three 9th level spells.

    5th: Swift Etherealness (PH2)
    6th: Greater Dispel Magic or True Seeing
    9th: Literally anything you want to be able to spontaneously cast at will. Miracle is better than Wish due to the option to have no xp cost.


    Edit: I forgot to mention, you may as well advance your Cleric casting with some of those Dweomerkeeper levels, and take the Human Paragon at 1st level for the skills unless you're using Cloistered Cleric. With the level arrangement I suggested, you'll have Wizard 21 casting after maxing out Archmage, so applying the last seven Dweomerkeeper levels to your Cleric casting gets you 8th level Cleric spells. I assume you're taking Initiate of Mystra so the three Cleric levels are non-negotiable, but I'll ask if you actually have five Archmage abilities to pick, or if four or even three levels of it will get you what you want. Two more Mystic Theurge levels, or one more and putting eight Dweomerkeeper levels toward Cleric, gets you 9th level Cleric spells as well. You'll just need to figure out a way to fix your caster levels in those classes.
    Last edited by Biffoniacus_Furiou; 2020-09-19 at 12:13 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Need suggestions for Dweomer Keeper's Mantle of Spells class ability picks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    So assuming you're advancing Wizard casting with it, you can pick a 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th level spell if you take class levels in the order you listed them.

    Why not Cleric 3/ Wizard 1/ Human Paragon 3/ Mystic Theurge 5?

    You can have some/all of the Raiment of the Four set in MIC (at double price to be slotless) to be able to spontaneously cast a few important spells. There's also the option to get a custom Runestaff (MIC p224) to get spontaneous access to whatever spells you want a few times/day. You'll also want Uncanny Forethought from EoE, which means you can spontaneously cast any spell you know, but all of those options have daily limits though.

    Archmage requires 7th level spells, Arcane Avatar requires 6th level spells, Human Paragon can be taken any time. So let's say you're going (in this order) Cleric 3/ Wizard 1/ Human Paragon 3/ Mystic Theurge 5/ Dweomerkeeper 3/ Arcane Avatar 5/ Archmage 5/ Dweomerkeeper 7, you can pick a 5th, a 6th, and three 9th level spells.

    5th: Swift Etherealness (PH2)
    6th: Greater Dispel Magic or True Seeing
    9th: Literally anything you want to be able to spontaneously cast at will. Miracle is better than Wish due to the option to have no xp cost.


    Edit: I forgot to mention, you may as well advance your Cleric casting with some of those Dweomerkeeper levels, and take the Human Paragon at 1st level for the skills unless you're using Cloistered Cleric. With the level arrangement I suggested, you'll have Wizard 21 casting after maxing out Archmage, so applying the last seven Dweomerkeeper levels to your Cleric casting gets you 8th level Cleric spells. I assume you're taking Initiate of Mystra so the three Cleric levels are non-negotiable, but I'll ask if you actually have five Archmage abilities to pick, or if four or even three levels of it will get you what you want. Two more Mystic Theurge levels, or one more and putting eight Dweomerkeeper levels toward Cleric, gets you 9th level Cleric spells as well. You'll just need to figure out a way to fix your caster levels in those classes.
    Wow... that was a lot of good stuff to consider. A few points I should probably mention:

    This is actually that character I started playing at level 1 back in 2002. So he's been through a lot of crap. I have had a lot more 3rd party, but wanted to "clean him up" a bit, so I'm using the retraining rules from PHB2 to retrain class levels. So its actually a level 32, I'm redoing. He's always been a full arcane spellcaster, until now when commencing on the retraining, to get into dweomer keeper, so I don't want to reduce his arcane caster levels really at all if possible, or as little as possible. Even though I see how higher level cleric spells would be great.

    The reason for 5 levels of Arch Mage is because I have had permission to retain the 3.0 version of the class. I also have the 3.0 version of Spellcasting Prodigy, and the 3.0 version of Automatic Quicken.

    The idea was to streamline him more, now, since even though its my "main" character, he does not see a lot of play time. I also currently don't have him in any party, so there's no other characters to balance against. So I want to keep as many arcane caster levels as possible. I do have the Practiced Spellcaster feat. My plan was indeed also to take Initiate of Mystra, so that is the reason for 3 levels of cleric. And I'm indeed going Cloistered Cleric!

    So in short, my mage is casting 3 spell per round, all of them quickened, still, silent, and material eschewed.

    On thing I do recognize tho, from your suggestions above, is that there is no reason to go 7 wizard. I do still want to go 5 levels, for an extra feat, which, even the level considered, he is starved of. Therefore my thought would be to go 5 wizard, 2 Mystic Theurge, so I retain a bonus meta-magic feat. Also, I never thought about him not having access to level 9 spells when actually taking the dweomerkeeper PrC, since well he was level 32, when he retrained...


    EDIT: If I make a runestaff, containing wish, would I then be able to use supernatural spell class ability of DK, to cast wish through the staff, thus not having to pay components, or have to prepare it?
    Last edited by Melcar; 2020-09-19 at 07:50 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Need suggestions for Dweomer Keeper's Mantle of Spells class ability picks!

    I hate to suggest too much of a modification on your build for the Dweomer Keeper (DK), but I might be tempted to go full DK. Since prestige classes that are 10 levels long can be progressed past 10 in epic and you are retraining your character so continuity is not an issue, I would push DK out to 22 levels.

    Human Paragon 1/Cloistered Cleric 3/Wizard 5/Human Paragon 1/DK 22

    Or

    Human Paragon 1/Cloistered Cleric 3/Wizard 1/Human Paragon 1/ Eldritch Master 4/DK 22

    22 Levels of DK means you will end up 11 spells in your mantle and 10 supernatural spells a day. Also you should get bonus epic feats past 10th, lets say every 4 levels of DK (14, 18, 22). You also will have all the feats back from Arch Mage pre-req's. Even if you are not interested in this change, even taking 12 levels of DK opens up a 5th supernatural spell if you feel the need to do free wishes for +5 inherent bonuses to each ability score.

    Eldritch master is in dragon magazine 280, that certainly complicates things. It does not progress spell casting, but does a few interesting things. At level 3 you get a bonus metamagic feat and a spell slot one level higher than you can currently cast (add it to cleric for a 3rd level slot). At level 4 you get to pick another classes spell list you can learn spells from. You mentioned cleric spells being interesting, cast them off your wizard spell slots. Note, this also opens up a lot of mantle choices like say Heal or the for-mentioned Miracle. The class also adds its level to arcane classes for determine the level of spell effects.

    If you are allowed to take alternative sourced spell feat from dragon magazine, you can also convert arcane to divine and the reverse. This opens up Divine Metamagic tricks (with your freed Arch Mage feats) to convert to wizard spells to divine. Don't forget to make the spell supernatural so that it cannot be dispelled.

    Spell Mantle

    Already Mentioned Heal and Miracle

    Level 6: Antimagic Field (PHB)

    Seems like a must. If you are going Initiate of Mystra you might as well have this option always up your sleeve. Turn off everyone else's casting, but you keep going.

    The rest are honorable mention. Mantle spells are really subjective to your playing style.

    Level 3: Sheltered Vitality (Spell Compendium)

    Your going to have some lower spell level picks, a level 3 spell that blocks ability damage is not a bad choice.

    Level 9: Disjunction

    If you have any quick counter spell abilities, having this spell always available is nice. Or just to break things.

    Level 7 Arcane Spellsurge (Dragon Magic)

    Hmm, how does that interact with the epic Multispell feat. It makes spells quickened effectively, but does not say quickened.

    Level 9: Reaving Dispel (Spell Compendium)

    It allows a higher +25 bonus on the dispel check.

    If you are a battlefield control wizard, Force Cage, dimensional lock/anchor, anticipate teleportation. Those always make the wizard really slick when he has those ready, but not having to have them prepared is nice. Alternatively prepare those and have other mantle spells to take their place.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Need suggestions for Dweomer Keeper's Mantle of Spells class ability picks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bphill561 View Post
    I hate to suggest too much of a modification on your build for the Dweomer Keeper (DK), but I might be tempted to go full DK. Since prestige classes that are 10 levels long can be progressed past 10 in epic and you are retraining your character so continuity is not an issue, I would push DK out to 22 levels.

    Human Paragon 1/Cloistered Cleric 3/Wizard 5/Human Paragon 1/DK 22

    Or

    Human Paragon 1/Cloistered Cleric 3/Wizard 1/Human Paragon 1/ Eldritch Master 4/DK 22

    22 Levels of DK means you will end up 11 spells in your mantle and 10 supernatural spells a day. Also you should get bonus epic feats past 10th, lets say every 4 levels of DK (14, 18, 22). You also will have all the feats back from Arch Mage pre-req's. Even if you are not interested in this change, even taking 12 levels of DK opens up a 5th supernatural spell if you feel the need to do free wishes for +5 inherent bonuses to each ability score.

    Eldritch master is in dragon magazine 280, that certainly complicates things. It does not progress spell casting, but does a few interesting things. At level 3 you get a bonus metamagic feat and a spell slot one level higher than you can currently cast (add it to cleric for a 3rd level slot). At level 4 you get to pick another classes spell list you can learn spells from. You mentioned cleric spells being interesting, cast them off your wizard spell slots. Note, this also opens up a lot of mantle choices like say Heal or the for-mentioned Miracle. The class also adds its level to arcane classes for determine the level of spell effects.

    If you are allowed to take alternative sourced spell feat from dragon magazine, you can also convert arcane to divine and the reverse. This opens up Divine Metamagic tricks (with your freed Arch Mage feats) to convert to wizard spells to divine. Don't forget to make the spell supernatural so that it cannot be dispelled.

    Spell Mantle

    Already Mentioned Heal and Miracle

    Level 6: Antimagic Field (PHB)

    Seems like a must. If you are going Initiate of Mystra you might as well have this option always up your sleeve. Turn off everyone else's casting, but you keep going.

    The rest are honorable mention. Mantle spells are really subjective to your playing style.

    Level 3: Sheltered Vitality (Spell Compendium)

    Your going to have some lower spell level picks, a level 3 spell that blocks ability damage is not a bad choice.

    Level 9: Disjunction

    If you have any quick counter spell abilities, having this spell always available is nice. Or just to break things.

    Level 7 Arcane Spellsurge (Dragon Magic)

    Hmm, how does that interact with the epic Multispell feat. It makes spells quickened effectively, but does not say quickened.

    Level 9: Reaving Dispel (Spell Compendium)

    It allows a higher +25 bonus on the dispel check.

    If you are a battlefield control wizard, Force Cage, dimensional lock/anchor, anticipate teleportation. Those always make the wizard really slick when he has those ready, but not having to have them prepared is nice. Alternatively prepare those and have other mantle spells to take their place.
    I was unaware that PrC that are 10 levels, could be expanded into epic. Is that a hard rule somewhere? I actually did find an epic Dweomerkeeper on the old d&d archives... which does give more spell mantles, and bonus feats, but no extra supernatural spells...

    I'm also unsure of how good eldritch master is, when you are not a sorcerer. It seems to me, that a few of the abilities progs off the ability to cast spells as a sorcerer... unless I'm not reading that correctly... Its pretty cool, but I'm unsure of how good it is for a wizard. I like the suggestions, but I'm just unsure if it works as intended for a wizard.

    I do think Arch Mage, with especially Mastery of Shaping and Mastery of Elements are significant abilities to keep, so I will be staying in that class. But I do like the way your mind works!

    I also like the spell selection. Arcane Spellsurge however, wont give me anything since I already cast all spells as swift actions. My DM and I agreed that I could expend a standard action to cast a swift action, so I don't encounter the specific problem mentioned in the spell description. Multispell simply allows one extra swift action spell per round, so I'm currently at 3 spell per round. I think 3 spell per round is the the sweet-spot.

    My goal is to take wish for spell mantle there, if I only have one level 9 spell to place in mantle. Because then I can cast that as a supernatural spell, thus giving me a plethora of spells from other spell lists to cast for free... so that seems to carry with it extreme versatility...

    Please keep any and all suggestion coming. Its great to see how other people think, and I discover new classes and spells every time!

    Thanks!
    Last edited by Melcar; 2020-09-21 at 02:38 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: Need suggestions for Dweomer Keeper's Mantle of Spells class ability picks!

    Dweomerkeepers usually have turning attempts, so I like giving them Divine Defiance and taking a Dispel or two in my mantle of spells. Counterspell as an immediate action, without needing to prepare a Greater Dispel!

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Need suggestions for Dweomer Keeper's Mantle of Spells class ability picks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    I was unaware that PrC that are 10 levels, could be expanded into epic. Is that a hard rule somewhere? I actually did find an epic Dweomerkeeper on the old d&d archives... which does give more spell mantles, and bonus feats, but no extra supernatural spells...

    I'm also unsure of how good eldritch master is, when you are not a sorcerer. It seems to me, that a few of the abilities progs off the ability to cast spells as a sorcerer... unless I'm not reading that correctly... Its pretty cool, but I'm unsure of how good it is for a wizard. I like the suggestions, but I'm just unsure if it works as intended for a wizard.

    I do think Arch Mage, with especially Mastery of Shaping and Mastery of Elements are significant abilities to keep, so I will be staying in that class. But I do like the way your mind works!
    ...

    Thanks!
    The epic rules can be seen in the SRD for the PrC's progressing past 10 levels.

    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm

    Spoiler: Epic Abilities
    Show
    A ten-level prestige class can progress beyond 10th level, but only if the character level is already 20th or higher. A class with fewer than ten levels cannot progress beyond the maximum for that class, regardless of character level.

    Any class features that increase or accumulate as part of a repeated pattern also continues to increase or accumulate after 20th level at the same rate. An exception to this rule is any bonus feat granted as a class feature. If a character gets bonus feats as part of a class feature, these do not increase with epic levels. Instead, these classes get bonus feats at a different rate (described in each epic class description).


    Now I assumed you are using the 3.5 dweomerkeeper that is from the Complete Divine Web Enhancement. The one you found in the archive is the 3.0 Mystra only DK from the Faiths and Pantheons book. It does have a list epic progression, but the class has several differences. The 3.5 one will grant you more supernatural spells, while the 3.0 class does not have any at any level.

    The Eldritch master is a little screwy. Certainly the ability called "Spells Known" only help spontaneous casters that learn spells like bards or sorcerers since it specifically calls that out. The ability "Spell Dilettante" does not have this restriction. But what a spell known is for a wizard has been argued in several threads.

    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm

    Spoiler: Various Wizard Rules
    Show

    Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells. She must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare

    At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook.

    The Glossary on page 310 of the PHB has spells known for wizards "A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare."



    I usually suggest the Eldritch Master (EM) for a Sublime Chord build

    Spoiler: Sublime Chord
    Show


    Bard 1/ Cleric 1/ Wizard 1/ Human Paragon 2/ EM 2/ DK 1/ EM 2/ Sublime Chord 1/ DK 9

    It is really funny with the Arcane Preparation and Arcane Manipulation feats. Take one Sublime Chord level 6 spell, prepare it as a level 1, 2, and 3rd level spell slot. Now your Sublime Chord has 1-3 level spell slots, it has the bard/cleric/sorc spell list, and EM grants bonus spells known at those levels so you make the sublime chord had 1-9th level spells.

    You can always replace Paragon with more a Wizard level and something else.



    Regardless, there is no need to completely abandon your other classes if you like them, but you take more DK levels than 10 to get more supernatural spells and mantle spells. The bonus feat rate is unknown, I just mentioned 4 levels since it nicely gave three feats over 12 epic levels. Plus as said before, getting a 5th supernatural spell is nice for the inherent bonuses (if you even need them at your level).

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Need suggestions for Dweomer Keeper's Mantle of Spells class ability picks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bphill561 View Post
    The epic rules can be seen in the SRD for the PrC's progressing past 10 levels.

    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm

    Spoiler: Epic Abilities
    Show
    A ten-level prestige class can progress beyond 10th level, but only if the character level is already 20th or higher. A class with fewer than ten levels cannot progress beyond the maximum for that class, regardless of character level.

    Any class features that increase or accumulate as part of a repeated pattern also continues to increase or accumulate after 20th level at the same rate. An exception to this rule is any bonus feat granted as a class feature. If a character gets bonus feats as part of a class feature, these do not increase with epic levels. Instead, these classes get bonus feats at a different rate (described in each epic class description).


    Now I assumed you are using the 3.5 dweomerkeeper that is from the Complete Divine Web Enhancement. The one you found in the archive is the 3.0 Mystra only DK from the Faiths and Pantheons book. It does have a list epic progression, but the class has several differences. The 3.5 one will grant you more supernatural spells, while the 3.0 class does not have any at any level.

    The Eldritch master is a little screwy. Certainly the ability called "Spells Known" only help spontaneous casters that learn spells like bards or sorcerers since it specifically calls that out. The ability "Spell Dilettante" does not have this restriction. But what a spell known is for a wizard has been argued in several threads.

    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm

    Spoiler: Various Wizard Rules
    Show

    Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells. She must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare

    At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook.

    The Glossary on page 310 of the PHB has spells known for wizards "A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare."



    I usually suggest the Eldritch Master (EM) for a Sublime Chord build

    Spoiler: Sublime Chord
    Show


    Bard 1/ Cleric 1/ Wizard 1/ Human Paragon 2/ EM 2/ DK 1/ EM 2/ Sublime Chord 1/ DK 9

    It is really funny with the Arcane Preparation and Arcane Manipulation feats. Take one Sublime Chord level 6 spell, prepare it as a level 1, 2, and 3rd level spell slot. Now your Sublime Chord has 1-3 level spell slots, it has the bard/cleric/sorc spell list, and EM grants bonus spells known at those levels so you make the sublime chord had 1-9th level spells.

    You can always replace Paragon with more a Wizard level and something else.



    Regardless, there is no need to completely abandon your other classes if you like them, but you take more DK levels than 10 to get more supernatural spells and mantle spells. The bonus feat rate is unknown, I just mentioned 4 levels since it nicely gave three feats over 12 epic levels. Plus as said before, getting a 5th supernatural spell is nice for the inherent bonuses (if you even need them at your level).
    Is there a listing/ write-up of the 3.5 epic dweomerkeeper somewhere?
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Need suggestions for Dweomer Keeper's Mantle of Spells class ability picks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    Is there a listing/ write-up of the 3.5 epic dweomerkeeper somewhere?
    There is no write up for the 3.5 DK, but the epic rules are clear on PrCs. There are two class abilities that follow a pattern, supernatural spells and mantle spells (oh, besides spell casting). The only thing you have to work out with the DM are the epic bonus feats which are between every 2 to 5 levels. Casters seem to get them around every 4 levels.

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