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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Spell cards are a lifesaver, especially for the wizards, druids, and clerics out there. Cards for druids with wildshapes or for summoners with their favored pets are also really nice to have. As does reading the "playing the game" chapters carefully.
    Using GIMP, I've made a lot of cards using Gale Force 9's cards as a guide/template.
    They're so useful.
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  2. - Top - End - #32

    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by Asisreo1 View Post
    General advice: When your in a long-distance ranged fight, go prone while approaching. It's free disadvantage on incoming attacks. It literally costs you nothing. It's absurd the amount of players I see standing around as an easy target against ranged enemies when they can take advantage of going prone.
    Well, it does cost you time. You have to spend half your movement standing up, so your approach will move you only 45' per turn instead of 60', and you'll spend more rounds taking fire before reaching short range. It's typically worth it though.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Using GIMP, I've made a lot of cards using Gale Force 9's cards as a guide/template.
    They're so useful.
    I should. At this point I have at least one copy of all the spell cards (two of the arcane boxes) and ones for the lower-CR creatures (even though I use an app for DMing). They were a lifesaver when I was playing with a highschool club where only a few actually had any of their own materials (other than dice, occasionally). I, myself, know many of the spells well enough through experience. But for new players, they're one of the must-have purchases IMO.

    I also have a crapton of minis, although I always need more. Even have a bunch of AoS minis, despite their different base sizes. One of the best ways I've found to get new people to pick their general play type is to hand over a box of minis and say "pick something that looks interesting". Before talking about classes, races, or mechanics, just pick something that looks cool. Then we talk about ways to go from there, usually in the form of optometrist questions (is A better? or B? or A?...). Things like "ok, so you picked someone with a big sword. Are you more into heavy armor and skill or furious rage?" Or (having picked an arcane spell-caster mini) "So...nature, books, or deals with powerful creatures? Or maybe faith? Or you were just born that way?" The same questioning process goes through the rest of fleshing out the character. We put the high stats into the primary, then I go with secondary vs con for the next ones, and the remaining 3 get (e.g.) "Stronger, smarter, or better with people? OK, smarter. So of the remaining ones, which one are you below average at?" I find I get a lot of people who don't dump INT doing this. And they focus much more on the character, not the statline.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    I also have a crapton of minis, although I always need more...
    And you use minis?
    ...I knew I liked you.

    Before talking about classes, races, or mechanics, just pick something that looks cool.
    I typically just use Martial, Arcane Magic, Divine Magic and Skills as my four categories of character (I try to encourage new players not to play Barbarian or Monk...I know the idea of Barbarian seems cool. You Rage and you hit things. Trust me, it's not that fun. Especially when you start seeing what the Arcane and Divine players are going to do...Hell, even the Fighter is going to pull some tricks at some point...And you'll still be Raging and Hitting Things. Monk...Is just bad.). It's worked well. I've generally found that helping new players pick a character is extremely easy. It's the players who have played 'a bit' and have a 'weird concept' that they want to try out. Experienced players - especially ones who have known me a long time - never try and pull anything weird, because they know that 'weird' doesn't work. Just play your class the way it was designed to be played, and you'll be fine.

    As a off-and-on mini-painter-for-money (I am not a professional model painter, I refuse to call myself that, have you seen what professional mini painters actually do?). The player can just tell me what they want. I'll make it happen.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-09-19 at 11:43 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    And you use minis?
    ...I knew I liked you.
    They were a major draw with the kids. I even had a bunch of bigger minis (especially dragons) up around the classroom. About half of them I had painted (badly, I'm not a great painter), the rest were the pre-painted ones.


    I typically just use Martial, Arcane Magic, Divine Magic and Skills as my four categories of character (I try to encourage new players not to play Barbarian or Monk...I know the idea of Barbarian seems cool. You Rage and you hit things. Trust me, it's not that fun. Especially when you start seeing what the Arcane and Divine players are going to do...Hell, even the Fighter is going to pull some tricks at some point...And you'll still be Raging and Hitting Things. Monk...Is just bad.). It's worked well. I've generally found that helping new players pick a character is extremely easy. It's the players who have played 'a bit' and have a 'weird concept' that they want to try out. Experienced players - especially ones who have known me a long time - never try and pull anything weird, because they know that 'weird' doesn't work. Just play your class the way it was designed to be played, and you'll be fine.

    As a off-and-on mini-painter-for-money (I am not a professional model painter, I refuse to call myself that, have you seen what professional mini painters actually do?). The player can just tell me what they want. I'll make it happen.
    Spoiler: WARNING: Self-indulgent rambling tangent ahead
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    Speaking of barbarians, one of my favorite characters was one.

    The player was the younger sister of one of my high school players. Normally it was high school only, but she was in 8th grade and her brother dragged her along. Picture this. Tiny little girl, well under 5' tall and maybe 90 pounds. Very very quiet. Her teachers said she'd said like 3 words the previous year, and you could barely hear her when she spoke. Had never played or even really thought about playing. I put out the minis, and she immediately grabbed a big, axe-wielding chick. When I started talking about the classes, she immediately jumped on Barbarian, especially when I said that they hulk out and get angry and hit things. Chose to be a dragonborn. And yes, she was sure of it. Fastest character choice I've ever had from a new player. 7' tall, hulking, not very people-friendly.

    Ended up being the most elementally barbarian character I've ever seen. All she wanted to do was kill. Her first reaction was generally "kill it." By far the most bloodthirsty, savage character I've seen. She liked nothing more than walking up and hitting things or breathing on things. And it felt like that was the real her coming out at the table. She was able to express that inner beast in a way she couldn't throughout the rest of her life, and it was beautiful. She got really into it and opened up quite a bit. I watched her come way far out of her shell. Because of a big, mean, dragonborn barbarian.

    It's one of the (many) reasons I love TTRPGs. Getting to set aside the "real you" for a while and play something else, where being weird is normal, can really be a lifesaver for a lot of kids. In some ways, it was therapeutic. The thing that got me hooked on it was my first year. We played 4e, at lunch (so 30 minute sessions. Yeah.). I was new, they were new, so we ended up throwing out most of the rules and just playing it by ear. But the group really bonded. A couple of them later told me that D&D club was what got them through some really hard times. One girl, who was by far not the "typical" D&D player (I'd always seen her as more of the "social/popular type") joined "because she didn't want to sit with the same group at lunch any more". None of them knew each other, but they became friends and the friendship lasted well after they graduated.

    I'd say that I had more of an effect on kids' lives for good running that club than I did actually teaching physics and chemistry. Several kids I mentored as part of it, acting as a touch-stone for their complaints and worries (many were "on the spectrum" and so weren't exactly good about social stuff). One I ended up running basically free-form games with--he only wanted the exploration part, the "and then what happens" part of wandering around finding new things. So I used him to explore the setting. He had access to every magic item in the game, basically, and we didn't do any combat. Just...talked and occasionally rolled an ability check or two. But to him it was something of a lifeline.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Ended up being the most elementally barbarian character I've ever seen. All she wanted to do was kill. Her first reaction was generally "kill it."
    I have the same character, in one of my games, also played by a child (no more than 10, IIRC). Unsurprisingly, his alignment is Chaotic Neutral.
    I think, mechanically, Barbarian is a very child-like class, that requires very, very little input to play, and is a very classic class for what this thread was written for in the first place.

    How do you play a Barbarian?
    How do you play Dungeons & Dragons, as a Barbarian?

    As a child, the player I have, can do very little outside of combat. Even making the simplest of choices, or the barest minimum of roleplaying, becomes difficult, because the player wouldn't know what to do in a real situation, and acts out, in character, as themselves. That is, lash out with aggression and violent force. Because the child, is a child, and doesn't have any other way to solve their problems, in real life, or in a fictional game about fictional characters.

    Which is very worrysome in children; "Given the ability to hurt people you simply don't like, with few - if any - consequences, would you?"
    Which was my mindset in high school, that thankfully I - mostly - grew out of. I didn't actually want bullies to stop bullying me. What I really wanted, was the ability to bully them. To be a bully myself (As seen in the movie, The Karate Kid).

    His first reaction is also 'kill it', except, sometimes, it doesn't work. Either the rest of his party is against him on this. That is "No. We can't just hurt people we don't like." Or, it's simply a matter of "You understand that if you go into a 1v1 fight with this monster...You'll get killed. Even if we help you, you'll probably die, and some of us will, too. This monster is too strong for 'I Rage and I hit it.' to work."
    The creature is Resistant to B/P/S damage. The attack barely does anything.

    "I want to run up and grab him, and shake him."
    The Noble is surrounded by 15 Guards and you believe the woman next to him, can probably cast spells. Are you sure?
    "...No. I don't know what to do, then."
    Have you tried talking?
    "What do I say?"
    Whatever you want.

    The child then does nothing. Because he has been told 'just kill it', is very likely not going to work in this situation, and then sits in silence. Because he's a child who doesn't know or have any other way to solve his problems. He's a power-gamer in the making.

    But also, how do you even put together a Guide on 'How to talk to people in order to get what you want'...I mean. That exact Guide absolutely exists. My Mum has it on her bookshelf. But how do you get children to read those kinds of books?
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-09-20 at 01:48 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    Look for Treantmonk's guides on YouTube. He's an "optimancer" but goes deep into how to play his builds. He gives a lot of detail.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Imp

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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by Chugger View Post
    Look for Treantmonk's guides on YouTube. He's an "optimancer" but goes deep into how to play his builds. He gives a lot of detail.
    And he's bad at 5e optimizing & build-playing.


    Well, bad-to-average I suppose.
    Last edited by Unoriginal; 2020-09-20 at 04:42 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    I've seen a couple of Treantmonk's videos and I do like his format and included how to content approach, but I disagree with some of his choices and reasoning. They are a nice starter resource. In my opinion if he was a PC he's be like a level 6 optimizer - I'm looking for some strong tier 2 to tier 3 level resources (not resources for those PC levels, but resources of that knowledge / tactical level).

    I read a lot, and dig into the PHB and other texts regularly. I'm all over action economy, cover and positioning. I appreciate all the general advice given, but I'm seeking the specifics and above basic level stuff. I estimate my own skill level pretty similar to Treantmonk's - I know quite a bit, but there are some holes, I figure I'm sort of at the top end of basic, and looking to edge into the more advanced tactical play ...

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    LudicSavant's Avatar

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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by da newt View Post
    In my opinion if he was a PC he's be like a level 6 optimizer
    I think that's a good way of characterizing it.

    I'm looking for some strong tier 2 to tier 3 level resources (not resources for those PC levels, but resources of that knowledge / tactical level).
    What did you think of the first link I gave?
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    Back before the servers got taken offline, I was a competitive esports player for Atlas Reactor (which is kind of like... multiplayer XCOM). Took home second place in world finals.

    There's something that one of my fellow competitive players wrote up (incidentally, a guy who was on the first place team) that I think is applicable to all turn-based strategy games. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iw8k...uK-XnTZpbBg5i4
    This series goes through some elementary game theory and applies it to some tactical situations.

    It is a good start. If you are already familiar with game theory, then it might be less useful.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2020-09-20 at 09:52 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    This will sound weird but it is true: Live your life and learn from observing it; if you want to "live extra lives" read, watch, or listen to stories of other lives lived and be open to (yet critical of) what was learned from it.

    All that non-fiction and fiction of life, the sciences, arts, news, and gossip? That is the compiled consequences of actions. These are "extra lives lived" and the "observed" changed context is experienced knowledge gained from such living.

    One of TTRPGs' fun attractions is it is "extra lives lived" without any real stakes to its consequences -- it's imaginary, and yet the lessons therein can be quite educational. Go play with less fear about embarrassment or failure, and bring your life (or "lives") knowledge to the table.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    LudicSavant's Avatar

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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by opaopajr View Post
    This will sound weird but it is true: Live your life and learn from observing it; if you want to "live extra lives" read, watch, or listen to stories of other lives lived and be open to (yet critical of) what was learned from it.

    All that non-fiction and fiction of life, the sciences, arts, news, and gossip? That is the compiled consequences of actions. These are "extra lives lived" and the "observed" changed context is experienced knowledge gained from such living.

    One of TTRPGs' fun attractions is it is "extra lives lived" without any real stakes to its consequences -- it's imaginary, and yet the lessons therein can be quite educational. Go play with less fear about embarrassment or failure, and bring your life (or "lives") knowledge to the table.
    Yes!

    Another thing: In addition to just hearing a lot of advice on paper, you really want to have some way to put your skills and theories to the test and practice. Obviously you can and should do this by actually playing D&D (ideally by playing very challenging campaigns, see below), but it can also help a lot to play other games and have other life experiences.

    A lot of important tactical skills carry over even across genres, and many other games are better in terms of having concrete feedback / quantifying your skill, whereas D&D can be pretty wishy-washy about that and leave people more vulnerable to incorrectly estimating how well they did.

    So for instance...

    - Go play something like, say, XCOM, don't read a guide, and practice until you get to a point where you can very consistently win on Legendary Ironman no matter what the RNG throws at you. While obviously there's a lot of differences between D&D and XCOM (or any other game), I can guarantee that many of the skills you learn will carry over, especially with regard to understanding probability and risk management (things humans are normally really bad at. Seriously, human intuitions about probability tend to be total garbage unless they are very thoroughly trained to replace those intuitions).

    - Play harder campaigns. If possible, encourage your DM to make the game harder / throw more and higher CR encounters at you and to not pull their punches (e.g. enemies should frequently be going for the best targets available to them, finishing people off, not fudging rolls in your favor, etc). Ideally, you want a point that is just beyond your current ability to handle, and the opportunity to try until you can handle it. Which is tricky to find in D&D, but you don't need the ideal scenario in order to have a useful/educational scenario.

    Note: It doesn't count if the 'hardness' comes from the DM being... whimsical. You will learn nothing more from a "Rocks Fall, You Automatically Lose" DM than you will from a "I fudged the dice so you wouldn't die" DM. The difficulty must arise from challenges where your decisions affect the outcome. Basically if it's fake difficulty, you won't get better.

    - You can also play out scenarios yourself (try to make them as practical scenarios as you can), escalating difficulty until you no longer know how to deal with the series of encounters, then try to figure out how to deal with it.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2020-09-20 at 10:33 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
    An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds | Comprehensive DPR Calculator | Monster Resistance Data

    Nerull | Wee Jas | Olidammara | Erythnul | Hextor | Corellon Larethian | Lolth | The Deep Ones

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    - Go play something like, say, XCOM, don't read a guide, and practice until you get to a point where you can very consistently win on Legendary Ironman no matter what the RNG throws at you. While obviously there's a lot of differences between D&D and XCOM (or any other game), I can guarantee that many of the skills you learn will carry over, especially with regard to understanding probability and risk management (things humans are normally really bad at. Seriously, human intuitions about probability tend to be total garbage unless they are very thoroughly trained to replace those intuitions).
    Just using this as an example, I'd emphasize that repetition is not the same thing as practice.

    XCOM, unlike DnD, is a game where you totally control the setting in which you play it. If you play it without distractions, with a clear head (not tired late at night, not intoxicated), taking your time, playing in small chunks, and reflecting on each chunk before moving on to the next, you will learn more in an afternoon than you would playing for months and months without any deliberative element to your practice.

    I'm not an amazing XCOM player, but I went from playing XCOM 1 non-ironman with and without DLC & with and without the long war mod, to XCOM 2 Ironman by essentially deciding "I'm actually going to practice this." My experience with repeatedly playing XCOM 1 basically just had the value of letting me disable the tutorial prompts. A few missions practicing XCOM 2 was enormously more valuable.

  15. - Top - End - #45

    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    *snip*
    "I want to run up and grab him, and shake him."
    The Noble is surrounded by 15 Guards and you believe the woman next to him, can probably cast spells. Are you sure?
    "...No. I don't know what to do, then."
    Have you tried talking?
    "What do I say?"
    Whatever you want.

    The child then does nothing. Because he has been told 'just kill it', is very likely not going to work in this situation, and then sits in silence. Because he's a child who doesn't know or have any other way to solve his problems. He's a power-gamer in the making.

    But also, how do you even put together a Guide on 'How to talk to people in order to get what you want'...I mean. That exact Guide absolutely exists. My Mum has it on her bookshelf. But how do you get children to read those kinds of books?
    This sounds like a Paradox of Choice situation, and instead of pointing the kid to entire books, I'd suggest giving him options. (It might be good to have someone besides the DM do this so there doesn't appear to be an implicit guarantee of success, but if necessary the DM can do it.)

    "...No. I don't know what to do, then."

    Have you tried talking?

    "What do I say?"

    It depends on what you want. If you want someone to help you, you can help them first. Tell them you want to do a job for them, and ask if they have anything they need help on. If you want someone to be angry at you, you can say something mean. If you just want them to like you, look around until you see something nice about them or something nice they did for someone and then tell them you like it. If you want to trick them into trusting you, you can pretend to help them but secretly do something else. What do you want to do?

    Trick them!

    Okay, so you're going to pretend to want to help them but then not really do it?

    Yes.

    All right, go ahead say it.

    Do you have any jobs you need us to do?

    Voila! The child is now engaging in non-violent roleplay. That's my experience anyway--new players (especially children) benefit from having a menu of possible options as well as the freedom to add their own options to the menu if they want. But don't give them a blank menu initially or they'll get confused.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-09-20 at 12:05 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I have the same character, in one of my games, also played by a child (no more than 10, IIRC). Unsurprisingly, his alignment is Chaotic Neutral.
    I think, mechanically, Barbarian is a very child-like class, that requires very, very little input to play, and is a very classic class for what this thread was written for in the first place.

    ...

    The child then does nothing. Because he has been told 'just kill it', is very likely not going to work in this situation, and then sits in silence. Because he's a child who doesn't know or have any other way to solve his problems. He's a power-gamer in the making.

    But also, how do you even put together a Guide on 'How to talk to people in order to get what you want'...I mean. That exact Guide absolutely exists. My Mum has it on her bookshelf. But how do you get children to read those kinds of books?
    In my experience, kids are some of the best manipulators, some of the best at wheedling what they want out of people. Because they can't do it any other way--the only power they have is persuasion. It isn't until later that their conscious self interferes with this sub-conscious ability that they get awkward. Heck, I've seen babies obviously manipulate people before they can talk.

    Fun fact. I also played with my nephews (ages 13, 11, and 8) and their ~12 year old friend. Of them, the 8-yo has the most elaborate backstory. As a dwarf barbarian. Sure, he gets mad and hits things (flaw: anger issues made me, my wife, and 2 kids get exiled from our clan until I could control them)--his catch phrase is "summoning all my anger, I raise my maul above my head and DORF SMASH!", but he's also one of the more socially-perceptive and clued in people (both IRL and in character). With a really good heart. And didn't dump CHA (he's got the second-highest CHA in the group, behind the sorcerer who has no clue how to talk to people at the player level).

    I think we (collectively) put way too much emphasis on class and build. The idea that a barbarian doesn't have any tools for anything outside of combat is preposterous--he's got all the tools that everyone else has. He's got a background, he's got skills. Sure, he doesn't have special-purpose, push-button answers for specific situations, but I'd say that those are rightfully few and far between anyway. Barbarians aren't doomed to low CHA--that's a min-max thing. Just like most characters aren't doomed to low INT even though min-maxers say to dump it because it doesn't control many mechanical levers.

    We hyperfocus on the mechanics and forget the characters. Character, backstory, and personality (both player and character) should take most of that role. Not buttons on the character sheet. In fact, I'm really tired of the "I don't have a button for that, so I can't do it" mentality I see in players and especially in online discussions. You're playing a character, not piloting a robot who can only do what he's programmed to. And people aren't bound by the explicit powers and abilities written down on the sheet.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    That's my experience anyway--new players (especially children) benefit from having a menu of possible options as well as the freedom to add their own options to the menu if they want. But don't give them a blank menu initially or they'll get confused.
    So much this. It's why I don't say "what do you want to play". I give choices based on their choice of mini. I do the same in-game: I'll present a list of things I can see as possibilities and then leave it open beyond that. And they frequently take the 3rd (unspoken) path, so I'm not railroading. Just pointing out what their characters would see as options.

    Writer's block/fear of the blank page applies to roleplaying as well. Breaking that ice and giving them a place to start even if they end up rejecting it and going somewhere else is important. Overcoming the static friction often requires a small push. Once you're rolling, it's easier to keep moving.

    It's also a trick for sandboxes--if you just plop people down in a setting and say "have at it", most of them will freeze and not do anything. It's the pathological opposite of a railroad--not having a starting point or a clear idea where to go from here. I try to give a "quest starter"--something they can pursue if they want. If they don't, generally it's not a big deal. And if they do, they can move on and do something else once they're done. But it's a reason to get them to a particular locale, and an initial bit of momentum to get them started.
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  17. - Top - End - #47

    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by da newt View Post
    I've seen a couple of Treantmonk's videos and I do like his format and included how to content approach, but I disagree with some of his choices and reasoning. They are a nice starter resource. In my opinion if he was a PC he's be like a level 6 optimizer - I'm looking for some strong tier 2 to tier 3 level resources (not resources for those PC levels, but resources of that knowledge / tactical level).

    I read a lot, and dig into the PHB and other texts regularly. I'm all over action economy, cover and positioning. I appreciate all the general advice given, but I'm seeking the specifics and above basic level stuff. I estimate my own skill level pretty similar to Treantmonk's - I know quite a bit, but there are some holes, I figure I'm sort of at the top end of basic, and looking to edge into the more advanced tactical play ...
    @Da Newt,

    You know what you need? Duels! Learn by doing, then comparing your results with other people's results to see how to do it better. Post a situation, then see who can give you the most effective way to win it.

    For instance, let's say you're a 20th level Eldritch Knight with Dex 20, Con 16, feats [Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter, Defensive Duelist, Prodigy (Athletics), Warcaster, Alert], and spells [Shield, Mage Armor, Expeditious Retreat, Magic Weapon, Absorb Elements, Darkness, Fireball, Polymorph, Protection From Evil, Stoneskin, Counterspell, Dispel Magic] plus cantrips [Blade Ward, Booming Blade, Light]. You have a nonmagical hand crossbow, a rapier +1, a shield +1, plenty of crossbow bolts, a net, pre-cast Mage Armor, pre-cast Light on your armor, 150 remaining HP, and 30 remaining spell points. (DMG rules.)

    You're exploring the following cavern alone (let's say during downtime) and so far have encountered only only minor pests (a couple of skeletons in #43 and a roper in #15, all now dead), when suddenly... you're at point #9 when a Goristro emerges from point #32 and attacks you!



    (Each square = 5' x 5'. Note that the Goristro occupies 3' x 3' squares but can squeeze through a 2-square gap at half-speed per PHB rules for Squeezing Into Smaller Spaces.)

    For the sake of uniformity, let's say you're at point #9 right now, the Goristro is immediately west of you (5' away), it just spent its last turn Dashing into melee range of you, and it's now your turn. You happen to already know that areas #8, #9, #2, #3, #1, #7, #5, #13, and #6 are uninhabited. How many HP are you going to lose killing this Goristro?

    You can decide whether you would have had your rapier + shield out or your hand crossbow, but roll this out (assume the Goristro chases you relentlessly until you die, using Charge + Gore any time it can without taking an opportunity attack, otherwise using Multiattack), post how many HP you lost, and tell us how you did it!

    I'll post my own solution later.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-09-20 at 12:17 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    @Da Newt,

    You know what you need? Duels! Learn by doing, then comparing your results with other people's results to see how to do it better. Post a situation, then see who can give you the most effective way to win it.

    For instance, let's say you're a 20th level Eldritch Knight with Dex 20, Con 16, feats [Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter, Defensive Duelist, Prodigy (Athletics), Warcaster, Alert], and spells [Shield, Mage Armor, Expeditious Retreat, Magic Weapon, Absorb Elements, Darkness, Fireball, Polymorph, Protection From Evil, Stoneskin, Counterspell, Dispel Magic] plus cantrips [Blade Ward, Booming Blade, Light]. You have a nonmagical hand crossbow, a rapier +1, a shield +1, plenty of crossbow bolts, a net, pre-cast Mage Armor, pre-cast Light on your armor, 150 remaining HP, and 30 remaining spell points. (DMG rules.)

    You're exploring the following cavern alone (let's say during downtime) and so far have encountered only only minor pests (a couple of skeletons in #43 and a roper in #15, all now dead), when suddenly... you're at point #9 when a Goristro emerges from point #32 and attacks you!



    (Each square = 5' x 5'.)

    For the sake of uniformity, let's say you're at point #9 right now, the Goristro is immediately west of you (5' away), it just spent its last turn Dashing into melee range of you, and it's now your turn. You happen to already know that areas #8, #9, #2, #3, #1, #7, #5, #13, and #6 are uninhabited. How many HP are you going to lose killing this Goristro?
    Very interesting setup, MaxWilson. Is the Goristro allowed to use it's Charge+Gore+Siege Monster ability to ram into the walls and provoke a cave-in?

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    I've never seen anything of Treantmonk it'd call a great job. Never seen anything of his I'd call a good job either, for that matter.

    He also has a strong tendency to be way too attached to some ideas to allow his guides the flexibility a "play guide" would need.
    I disagree with a large amount of what treantmonk says in the video's but I would hesitate to call these anything less than a good job.

    Composing and performing a script is actually really hard and just finishing a 30 minute + script and speach is already an accomplishment for most folks. That said quality wise his public/performance speaking is far from perfect and the editing is poor at best.

    As for play guides as a whole it's impossible to hit every note but we can address a general strategy for a specific build on the 1-20 climb with a "close enough" degree of accuracy in our planning and preparation. It's just a ton of work.

    Monster play guides (TMKWTD is great) on the other hand are quite nice and can be very succinct.
    Last edited by Nhorianscum; 2020-09-20 at 12:22 PM.

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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    @Da Newt,

    You know what you need? Duels! Learn by doing, then comparing your results with other people's results to see how to do it better. Post a situation, then see who can give you the most effective way to win it.
    I've had a few games that did something like this. For example we had one game where it was a sort of... I guess Shadow-Marches-esque (basically, switching out players/DMs in a persistent world) except that they gamified the DM's side by giving them a 'budget' for putting monsters and other features in a dungeon. And then multiple parties would try to survive said dungeons and get rewards.

    I remember making a particularly mean dungeon with a story about an allip and a tontine.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2020-09-20 at 12:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    The only way you can get better at playing the game is by knowing the nuances of the rules.

    Unfortunately, there's no simple guide for this, as it'd be something that required you to read the dozens of pages of rules and also how these rules interact with one another.

  22. - Top - End - #52

    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Very interesting setup, MaxWilson. Is the Goristro allowed to use it's Charge+Gore+Siege Monster ability to ram into the walls and provoke a cave-in?
    In this context, let's say the only effect of ramming into a wall is that 100 HP of damage (vs. AC 15) destroys a square of stone (turning it from impassable solid stone into difficult terrain/rubble). A full cavein would be too complex to do without a live DM.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by opaopajr View Post
    This will sound weird but it is true: Live your life and learn from observing it; if you want to "live extra lives" read, watch, or listen to stories of other lives lived and be open to (yet critical of) what was learned from it.
    All that non-fiction and fiction of life, the sciences, arts, news, and gossip? That is the compiled consequences of actions. These are "extra lives lived" and the "observed" changed context is experienced knowledge gained from such living.
    One of TTRPGs' fun attractions is it is "extra lives lived" without any real stakes to its consequences -- it's imaginary, and yet the lessons therein can be quite educational. Go play with less fear about embarrassment or failure, and bring your life (or "lives") knowledge to the table.
    Thanks and I agree this is fine advice, but just for context: while I am decidedly childish, I'm 48, retired Navy CDR, masters degree, I've circumnavigated the globe, my kids are Sr/Jr in high school, and while I played D&D a bit in Jr/Sr High, I jumped back into it a little over a yr months ago when one daughter joined the school D&D club and the other fell in love w/ Crit Role.

    I will be checking out the game theory link / videos.

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    Max - I'd be a Goblin (I love Hide/disengage and dark vision), and there is NO WAY I'd dungeon crawl while lit up like a Xmas Tree. Also all EKs should know Shadow Blade.

    So I've got 150 hp, AC 21 w/ shield, 18 without, +11 to hit, I guess Archery FS (XBE and SS).

    My instinct is to Kite the melee only Demon, so I'd like to Exp Ret and Magic Weapon, run and shoot, but that's 2 Conc spells, so I'd Exp Ret and suck up the resistance to all my attacks. w/ +13 to hit, -5 for SS, no good way to get adv, I'm not sure if it matters one way or the other (SS shot or regular). I'd dash and forego the XBE extra attack. I'd move away (giving up op att), shoot 4x, action surge shoot 4x, BA dash. I'd burn shield spell when ever it helps. Then rinse and repeat, around and around one of those big columns. It would be a slog as i (hopefully) slowly cut him down and prevent him from getting into melee with me without burning his action to dash, so I'd limit him to 1 op att per round only.

    I wish I had fly, or a broom, or tabaxi climb ...

    COA 2: stand and bang - w/ 21 AC + shield spell, I stay toe to toe and upcast Shadow Blade for 3d8 psychic damage and ADV on all attacks. If he tried to move away then charge, I'd BB the op attack. The hoof's prone rider is the scariest bit so I'd def duelist that one, otherwise while I'm sure I'd be good and bloodied, I think I'd win in the end. This is not very clever, but I think I'd limp away victorious. However, PFE&G might be better than SB, ...

    So what could I do better?

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    So I'm not too happy with either of those, so I'll grab the best from both and Kite w/ my +1 Rapier (and hope the demon is as dumb as a zombie, and just keeps coming).

    First Defensive FS and shield wielding = 22 AC plus Defensive duelist (+6 AC reaction) = 28 AC once per round. So I attack 4x, then action surge attack 4x, then BA cast EXP RET and move + dash 60' away (triggering an OP ATT vs 28 AC). Then on demon's turn I'm out of his attack range so he can move 40' and ready action or dash to me - I hope he dashes into melee with me so I can repeat turn 1, but if he doesn't I taunt him, maybe cast fireball (but a damage cantrip would be better for unlimited resource), and move to 60' away again. I always make sure I end every turn more than 50' from him. Every time he closes to melee with me, I attack 4x then scoot. I cast shield only if he will be able to multi attack. I recast Exp Ret if I lose conc.

    That's better, but relies on a dumb enemy to keep plodding fwd.

    My best guess at the math for the above and stand and bang w/ Shadow Blade (assuming all trips fail).

    Kite w/ rapier:
    19 ac vs +12 to hit means like 65% chance to hit for 1d8 +6 = 10.5 hp each = 4(.65*10.5)= 27.3 hp per round
    28 ac vs + 13 to hit ~ 25% chance to hit for 3d10 +7 = 23.5 {and a trip save} = 5.9 hp per round

    So like 11 rounds to kill it, taking 66 damage - ish. Assuming he only gets op atts, all trips fail, I attack 4x / round and run. But if you add in 2x action surge then 9 rounds so 54 hp.

    Stand and Bang:
    19 ac vs +11 to hit w/ adv ~ 84% chance to hit for 3d8 +5 = 16.5 each = 56.1 per round
    27 ac (def fs + shield spell) vs +13 to hit ~ 30% chance to hit = 0.3*(2(3d8 +7) + 3d10 +7)= 17.25 per round

    -> 5.5 rounds and ~ 95 hp taken, but 2x action surge makes a real difference making it 3.5 rounds only and 60 hp taken.

    Did I do that right?
    Last edited by da newt; 2020-09-21 at 10:41 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    Your plan is one of the more sensible and safer ones. I would just reinforce what heavyfuel said about knowing the mechanical nuances:

    Exp Ret. is a BA Conc spell that lasts 10 min. Given Goristro moves at 40' that would mean you would typically be eventually out-maneuvered for most races if you could only mve once per round. So you are looking for at least two movements a round, or a way to keep 50'+ away at most times. Also given #14 (and its anterior alcoves, *metagaming knowledge or presumed that this is a PC known map of said cavern*) is not yet confirmed empty (unless it is an oversight given the knowledge of #6) you may want to restrain your circuit to #5, 1, 7, 9, & 13.

    First round is Exp. Ret. as BA, then since you need to get 50'+ away to not be further burdened by disadv. for missile atks, and you need to get to the other area so as to play keep away, while also going around the Goristro without triggering OAs, you'll need to use both Move and Action to get away. Within this 1st round movement you may find Action Surge to get your Extra Attacks a worthwhile softening volley (unless it is exactly in melee and would provoke OA to get away).

    Further, if it was me, I would check to see what is in my pack or surrounds in terms of expendable items or enviromental assets. I have "One Free Interact with the Enviroment" each turn and I better start using everything to my advantage. Ideally I would be dropping some light sources, likely unlit for now, just to keep things interesting and as a contingency in case the Goristro or other unforeseen monster has tricks up their sleeve/s. If I had fine powders in a bag (flour, rust shavings, etc.) I would take advantage of the cave's lack of wind to set up potential explosive areas (more likely Force than Fire, but again all GM dependent) in the future as the Goristro and I run in circles. At the very worst a Fireball can ignite said dropped light sources or enviro-traps (emergency cave-in for retreat delays?), otherwise they are assets seeded for future vision and tactical threat. At the very least extra lighting prep can allow greater area Goristro (or other's) movement intel, or allow Light to be dismissed off my armor, and even used for misdirection feints (dropped lit sources can be moved later, Int w Obj then Drop again). Basically take advantage of your whole action economy.

    Without trying to agg much else, I would see how far one spell, clever use of movement, expendable backpack items, and apparently limitless ammo (thanks Max Wilson GM! ) can soften up the Goristro before I need to lunge for a quicker kill. Given at any time the Goristro can use its Action to Dash up to 80' to close into melee (spending its potential to Multiattack (unless latest Sage Advice has ruled it works differently than I remember)), I may have to be ready to Disengage and then BA Dash and Move my Spd to play keep away so as to keep my Exp. Ret. from a potentially Conc disrupting OA.

    Lowest race speed I remember is 25', so together that's 50'+ average per round for 10minutes, or 60 rounds, just enough to play keep away. Given Goristro 8-to-16x 5' sq of movement there should be enough space to play keep away and conserve the most amount of resources in case there is further trouble on this floor... but that is no guarantee! And since I'm solo there is less room for error or extravagance. Because I am sure the Goristro is only the beginning, and even if it was the biggest bad here, any lucky wimp mob could wipe me out if I am softened too much afterwards.

    Contingency, expendables, tight mechanical knowledge, conservation of resources, fully use your action economy. Do your Logistics>Strategy>Tactics and you should be OK. Not flashy, but less risk. If this Goristro mob is less known, or GM modified (or buffed unknowingly beforehand from other mobs in the level), kiting still makes sense until more intel is gained and it also sets you up for a lifesaving tactical retreat. Survival is the better part of valor.
    Last edited by opaopajr; 2020-09-21 at 10:42 AM. Reason: typos

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by da newt View Post
    So I'm not too happy with either of those, so I'll grab the best from both and Kite w/ my +1 Rapier (and hope the demon is as dumb as a zombie, and just keeps coming).

    First Defensive FS and shield wielding = 22 AC plus Defensive duelist (+6 AC reaction) = 28 AC once per round. So I attack 4x, then action surge attack 4x, then BA cast EXP RET and move + dash 60' away (triggering an OP ATT vs 28 AC). Then on demon's turn I'm out of his attack range so he can move 40' and ready action or dash to me - I hope he dashes into melee with me so I can repeat turn 1, but if he doesn't I taunt him, maybe cast fireball (but a damage cantrip would be better for unlimited resource), and move to 60' away again. I always make sure I end every turn more than 50' from him. Every time he closes to melee with me, I attack 4x then scoot. I cast shield only if he will be able to multi attack. I recast Exp Ret if I lose conc.

    That's better, but relies on a dumb enemy to keep plodding fwd.

    Quote Originally Posted by opaopajr View Post
    Your plan is one of the more sensible and safer ones. I would just reinforce what heavyfuel said about knowing the mechanical nuances:
    While Grappling has an high opportunity cost for a creature with Multiattack, a big brute like a Goristro is likely to use it rather than getting kited (if it doesn't cut the PC's movement short by forcing them prove with its Hoof attack).

    But more importantly and more specifically for the demonic bravo, a Goristro can easily break any weapon fit for a Medium-sized opponent, even magic weapons, provided it lands a hit (well, a hit per weapon). And it's hard to prevent it to land a hit.

    So the question is: what do you do if your weapons are destroyed?

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    So the question is: what do you do if your weapons are destroyed?
    This is an EK right? I'd summon another one.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
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  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    What does it take to destroy a Shadow Blade or a +1 rapier? DMG pg 141 says most magic items have resistance to all damage. DMG pg 246-7 lists some basic object hp and AC for a stationary object - but what about for a weapon in hand? What would be right for magic weapon? What type of damage could harm it?

    If his +1 rapier was destroyed I'd probably just cast Shadow Blade and stop running.

    Yup - a grapple would mess up the Kite strategy, but would also require the Demon to get into range and still have an attack action available to attempt, this PC has Expertise in Athletics (+12 with 10 ST) to resist the grapple or escape it next turn (demon has +7 ST and no Athletics prof so a 25% ish success rate I think).
    Last edited by da newt; 2020-09-21 at 11:51 AM.

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    Default Re: build optimization vs play optimization

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    This is an EK right? I'd summon another one.
    An Eldritch Knight can only be bonded to two weapons at once, and can only summon those two. Presumably the EK in this challenge has bonded with the two weapons they are equipped with.

    Quote Originally Posted by da newt View Post
    What does it take to destroy a Shadow Blade
    Depends on how the DM reads the spell. The text does precise that it is a solid object, but also that the blade lasts as long as the spell does.

    Personally since it's make of shadows held together by magic it'd say it is rather frail and such would have 3 (1d6) HPs.

    Quote Originally Posted by da newt View Post
    or a +1 rapier? DMG pg 141 says most magic items have resistance to all damage.
    A rapier has 10 (3d6) HPs, so it'd take 20 points of damage to break it in one blow. A Goristro deals double damage to items.

    Quote Originally Posted by da newt View Post
    DMG pg 246-7 lists some basic object hp and AC for a stationary object - but what about for a weapon in hand?
    I usually rule it as: either the wielder's AC or the substance's AC, whichever is the highest.

    Quote Originally Posted by da newt View Post
    Max - I'd be a Goblin (I love Hide/disengage and dark vision), and there is NO WAY I'd dungeon crawl while lit up like a Xmas Tree.
    That means your PC is blind outside of the 60ft of darkvision you're given.

    Th Goristro could literally stay out of your PC's area of vision and throw stones as them until they eventually drop.

    Getting kited by a Goristro is rough.
    Last edited by Unoriginal; 2020-09-21 at 12:03 PM.

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