[Optimization]Why caster ability score+2 is a horrible choice

[shipiaozi]

Casters gain little benefits from high caster ability score in 5E, without bonus spell slot, all they get is +1 attack roll for SOME spells which isn't even worth 0.5 feat. Basically wizard, cleric, druid and sorcerer should never choose caster ability score+2 unless they have a strong reason to do so, such as a Eldritch Blast build. Intelligence/Wisdom even isn't the most important ability score for wizard/cleric/druid, dexterity and Constitution are.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Casters gain little benefits from high caster ability score in 5E, without bonus spell slot, all they get is +1 attack roll for SOME spells which isn't even worth 0.5 feat. Basically wizard, cleric, druid and sorcerer should never choose caster ability score+2 unless they have a strong reason to do so, such as a Eldritch Blast build. Intelligence/Wisdom even isn't the most important ability score for wizard/cleric/druid, dexterity and Constitution are.

Well, increasing your spell save DC is fairly important. You are correct for casters who decide to focus entirely on supportive spells that don't actually involve saves or their casting stat. For most though, I disagree heavily, you want a high casting stat.

[Asisreo1]

Casters gain little benefits from high caster ability score in 5E, without bonus spell slot, all they get is +1 attack roll for SOME spells which isn't even worth 0.5 feat. Basically wizard, cleric, druid and sorcerer should never choose caster ability score+2 unless they have a strong reason to do so, such as a Eldritch Blast build. Intelligence/Wisdom even isn't the most important ability score for wizard/cleric/druid, dexterity and Constitution are.

It all depends on your build.

Wizards, Clerics, Paladins, and Druids depend on their spellcasting modifier for how many spells they're able to prepare. An extra spell prepared can be helpful to some classes, especially in lower levels where that could be a 20% increase in amount of preparable spells.

However, the one important thing you're missing is Save DC's which can be extremely important dor certain classes. Paladins? Not really. Clerics? Maybe.

If you plan on casting harmful spells, it usually depends on your Spell Save DC on whether the spell is successful.

[zinycor]

I disagree completely.

A high caster ability score is incredibly useful since it increases save DCs, bonus to hit, number of spells known, bonus to the abilities related to it.

[CheddarChampion]

Clerics, Druids, and Wizards all can prepare more spells if they increase their casting stat.
At level 1 you prepare more spells thanks to your stat bonus than your level.

Otherwise I agree with ProsecutorGodot.
Save DC is a big measure of a caster's output.
An enemy saving against your <do nothing if the save is passed> spell, especially if they get it exactly, feels pretty bad.
Besides, there aren't a lot of other ways for a caster to increase their offensive output.

Furthermore, if you're the type that RPs your ability scores (like me) having a 12 or a 14 is talented but not exceptional.
If you want to play as a super-smart wizard 12 or 14 doesn't cut it. If you want to play as a cleric/druid that is really in tune with their god(s)/nature, 12 or 14 doesn't cut it.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I disagree completely.

A high caster ability score is incredibly useful since it increases save DCs, bonus to hit, number of spells known, bonus to the abilities related to it.

I agree. I've seen much bigger issues with casters and low primary stat than with weapon-types and low primary stat. There are ways to boost accuracy (including magical weapons). There are very few ways to boost save DC...which is a darn good thing IMO.

[shipiaozi]

Well, increasing your spell save DC is fairly important. You are correct for casters who decide to focus entirely on supportive spells that don't actually involve saves or their casting stat. For most though, I disagree heavily, you want a high casting stat.

Spell save DC is "attack roll" for these spells...
A non-caster get +1 attack roll and +1 damage for most of her attack, but a caster usually can not always cast spells that benefits from high ability score.

[CheddarChampion]

Spell save DC is "attack roll" for these spells...
A non-caster get +1 attack roll and +1 damage for most of her attack, but a caster usually can not always cast spells that benefits from high ability score.

Are you saying accuracy doesn't matter because it is situational?
A wizard with 5 Int is just as good as a wizard with 20 Int because they both have firebolt, minor illusion, and prestidigitation?

[TrueAlphaGamer]

Mental scores also provide good boosts to useful skills, like Knowledge/Investigation for Int, Perception for Wis, and ALL social skills for Cha.

I guess it's true that casters do have a slightly higher opportunity cost when boosting their casting stat, when compared to martials who just boost their Str/Dex, but that cost is negligible.

Compare a cleric who boosts Wis to one who boosts Con. One gets +1 more spells, more reliable spells/cantrips, +1 to their healing magic, etc., while the other gets a few more hp? slightly better short rest regen? slightly better concentration saves?

Outside of specific builds, it's generally better to pump the casting stat.

Otherwise I agree with ProsecutorGodot.
Save DC is a big measure of a caster's output.
An enemy saving against your <do nothing if the save is passed> spell, especially if they get it exactly, feels pretty bad.

As an aside, this is one of the worst parts of playing a caster. Nothing is more frustrating than getting a perfectly positioned faerie fire or whatever on four bandit goons and then having three make their save and you're just stuck spending your concentration on a slightly better Help action.

[Contrast]

Spell save DC is "attack roll" for these spells...
A non-caster get +1 attack roll and +1 damage for most of her attack, but a caster usually can not always cast spells that benefits from high ability score.

Casters also have a far higher opportunity cost for 'missing' with a spell than a martial does from missing with an attack (and usually a higher upside from 'hitting' as well). Losing a spell slot for no effect is a huge deal so its important your casting stat is as high as possible.

As a caster you probably want one of con save prof or Warcaster by level 8 but if your central premise is that casters should max Con and leave their casting stat at its base value, I strongly disagree.

I'm not quite sure how to take the 'caster usually can not always cast spells that benefits from high ability score'. They can occasionally cast buff spells which don't require a roll and a number of those spells are good. Focusing solely on those spells will leave you with a hugely restricted spell selection however and once you've cast that spell you are likely to want to cast attack cantrips or spells while maintaining concentration which will use your casting stat.

[JNAProductions]

So, if the casting stat is unimportant, what stats SHOULD you be buffing instead?

[shipiaozi]

Are you saying accuracy doesn't matter because it is situational?
A wizard with 5 Int is just as good as a wizard with 20 Int because they both have firebolt, minor illusion, and prestidigitation?

Attack roll+2 for some action totally not worth 2 feats, even not worth 1.
Int+4 for wizard is like a +1 weapon for warrior, if not worse.
A wizard with 5 int is worse than a wizard with 20 int, but not very far from the latter one. Meanwhile, a archer with 5 dex is unplayable compare with archer with 20 dex. If you give the 5 Int wizard 8 feats, he would be much better(about 5 feats better) than the 20 int wizard.

[Telwar]

Sure, you can focus on buffing your team, but that's one turn, and takes your Concentration. What else do you do the rest of the fight?

I mean, you can do that, and be the Dispel/Counterspell//Help/Healbot for the team, and if that floats your boat you're fine. But yeah, if you're going to cast offensively at all, and want more spells ready to cast, you generally will want to have a higher casting stat.

[zinycor]

Spell save DC is "attack roll" for these spells...
A non-caster get +1 attack roll and +1 damage for most of her attack, but a caster usually can not always cast spells that benefits from high ability score.

What about spells like hold person or similar?

I believe that one could build a prrfectly good caster with a 14 in the casting stat and improving dex and con as long as you pick buffing and utility spells.

But from there to say thay improving the casting stat is suboptimal for caster is a long way to go.

[MoiMagnus]

Are you saying accuracy doesn't matter because it is situational?
A wizard with 5 Int is just as good as a wizard with 20 Int because they both have firebolt, minor illusion, and prestidigitation?

No, he is not saying it is useless, he is saying that the difference between a 16 Int and a 20 Int is marginal, and not worth as much as +4 Con (HP + Concentration) or +4 Dex (Initiative + Stealth + AC).

This is certainly true for some gameplay styles, but I'd disagree on it being universally true.

[Eldariel]

Save DC, spell attacks, cantrip attacks, spell preparation and miscellaneous benefits (easier time scribing scrolls for Wizards for instance; nobody needs to be extolled the virtues of high Perception and Insight on Wis-casters either nor the benefits of high Cha on social characters or Bards getting extra uses of their Bardic Inspiration or any such) generally do add up. There might be cases where that's not optimal but those are fairly rare.

[Frozenstep]

This is a pretty hot take, OP. What do you expect a wizard/sorcerer to be doing each turn? Hasting someone and then dodging for the rest of the fight?

[Boci]

This is a pretty hot take, OP. What do you expect a wizard/sorcerer to be doing each turn? Hasting someone and then dodging for the rest of the fight?

Dodgeing is unnecessary is you're not casting any more spells, no one will attack you. At that point you can get out your deck chair and foot stool and starts eating grapes, whilst criticizing the fighters blade technique and noisily spitting out the seeds.

[zinycor]

Dodgeing is unnecessary is you're not casting any more spells, no one will attack you. At that point you can get out your deck chair and foot stool and starts eating grapes, whilst criticizing the fighters blade technique and noisily spitting out the seeds.

Now... have you been spying on my games?

[JackPhoenix]

Dodgeing is unnecessary is you're not casting any more spells, no one will attack you. At that point you can get out your deck chair and foot stool and starts eating grapes, whilst criticizing the fighters blade technique and noisily spitting out the seeds.

Attacking you until you lose concentration, to remove the fighter's benefits and to disable him for a turn, is still a good idea. And just because the spellcaster doesn't do anything obvious NOW doesn't mean you should ignore him.

[Pex]

A +1 to hit matters. Saving throw DC matters. For prepared casters it gives you one more spell to prepare. For various class abilities it gives you one more use per long rest. What is important is when you have the 18. My game math theory puts it by level 8 the latest, so you can have a 16 at first level and afford a feat.

[Boci]

A +1 to hit matters. Saving throw DC matters. For prepared casters it gives you one more spell to prepare. For various class abilities it gives you one more use per long rest. What is important is when you have the 18. My game math theory puts it by level 8 the latest, so you can have a 16 at first level and afford a feat.

Why 18 and not 20? Is an even ability modifier more important than an odd one, or is that just how the maths work out?

Now... have you been spying on my games?

What can I say? You're an inspiration to me.

[Asisreo1]

So, if the casting stat is unimportant, what stats SHOULD you be buffing instead?

Assuming you're going the route of "no save spells." You'll want to boost your Con first (better concentration and HP) then Dex (higher initiative and AC and Dex saves).

[cutlery]

As others have mentioned, increasing spell save DC is a pretty big deal, from cantrips to disintegrate.

The rare exception might be a multiclass character or 1/2 or 1/3 caster that rarely makes a spell attack roll or uses spells with a saving throw; but even then if you can add some spell attacks into the mix, that's nice, and if you're - say - building a strength eldritch knight, an int of 12 or 14 and firebolt will give you a better ranged option than a dex of 8 or 10 will outside the terribly short range of something like a javelin.

[Asisreo1]

Dodgeing is unnecessary is you're not casting any more spells, no one will attack you. At that point you can get out your deck chair and foot stool and starts eating grapes, whilst criticizing the fighters blade technique and noisily spitting out the seeds.

You always want to kill the weakest link. Not casting spells? Great. Easy to knock you out.

Don't even have to kill you, just wound you enough to knock you unconcious and you're enough of a distraction on their side.

[zinycor]

You always want to kill the weakest link. Not casting spells? Great. Easy to knock you out.

Don't even have to kill you, just wound you enough to knock you unconcious and you're enough of a distraction on their side.

Then don't forget to bring your parasol, so the enemies don't have line of sight of you.

[Asisreo1]

Then don't forget to bring your parasol, so the enemies don't have line of sight of you.

Break the parasol.

Or simply get into melee of the wizard because you don't need sight to attack them.

[Frogreaver]

Casters gain little benefits from high caster ability score in 5E, without bonus spell slot, all they get is +1 attack roll for SOME spells which isn't even worth 0.5 feat. Basically wizard, cleric, druid and sorcerer should never choose caster ability score+2 unless they have a strong reason to do so, such as a Eldritch Blast build. Intelligence/Wisdom even isn't the most important ability score for wizard/cleric/druid, dexterity and Constitution are.

I'm going to talk Wizard because that's the most recent character I just built. The list of highly regarded Wizard spells is long:

Level 1: Shield, Absorb Elements, Sleep, Magic Missile, Find Familiar, Silent Image, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Mage Armor
Level 2: Flaming Sphere, Hold Person, Invisibility, Levitate, Mirror Image, Misty Step, Rope Trick, Suggestion, Web
Level 3: Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Fear, Fireball, Fly, Haste, Hypnotic Pattern, Major Image, Tongues

That's a total of 27 spells I would love to have prepared on most any Wizard I make. By level 5 a 14 int wizard would only be able to prepare 7 of them. An 18 int wizard could prepare 9. For most of the game the number of spells you can prepare with a wizard is a huge deal! Druids and Clerics also fall into the same category of having more highly regarded spells than they can possibly prepare - though not to the same extent that the wizard does.

So just from a spells prepared viewpoint I'd say the extra casting stat is very important and that's before even considering what it does for save DC's.

[OvisCaedo]

I'm now wondering what eight feats a theoretical 5 int wizard would even take. Never mind where they got the extra three from, this is a very theoretical wizard.

[zinycor]

Break the parasol.

Or simply get into melee of the wizard because you don't need sight to attack them.

Well, if the party is so bad that they allow the enemy to get in melee with the wizard. Then the wizard was right to criticize the Fighter's technique xD.