Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XXVI)

[jdizzlean]

i guess something does say you can't :)

[DeTess]

I'd started by playing a round with a medusa build, but I just coultdn't get it to do anything particularly interesting in e6, given the extremely restrictive use limitation on her gaze. Then I moved on to a Ghaelle, but I jsut really couldn't get into that build. Ghaelle's are really silly in e6, but the build just wasn't really doing it for me because it felt just a bit too generic and didn't have any clear build-arounds for my feats, or at least I felt that way about it.

[thorr-kan]

I did briefly flirt with the idea of a belker because of, well...where we are. But a one-word pun wasn't enough to hang the build off of.

[lylsyly]

I actually had an idea for this one but between time constraints and the fact that I'm pretty sure I won't be the only one with the same idea I won't bother.

I knew there would be a ghaele (kinda surprised there was only one) . And I didn't really have the time anyway.

[daremetoidareyo]

Is there a judge for this little ditty?

[Zaq]

Happy weekend to those with a traditional schedule, and happy Saturday to anyone working!

Who’s serving as this round’s respected authority figure? Reminder: judging a round of Iron Chef provides, on average, 1/2 of the XP needed to reach your next level! (What a deal! You should get in on this.)

[Zaq]

Who’s dressing up as a judge for Halloween?

[PrismCat21]

Why don't you? I see no real reason why the chair can't also judge when no one else is stepping up to do so.
I trust you can be unbiased with the builds and I imagine for most of the builds you've forgotten who's made them anyway.

[DeTess]

Why don't you? I see no real reason why the chair can't also judge when no one else is stepping up to do so.
I trust you can be unbiased with the builds and I imagine for most of the builds you've forgotten who's made them anyway.

On the one hand, I agree that I trust Zaq to make unbiased judgements.

The problem is that it isn't 100% guaranteed by the setup that there is no bias. Like, it'd only take one disgruntled participant to complain about bias, which couldn't be disproven because Zaq does have access to the info about who made the builds, to just create a big stink. I hope that that wouldn't happen of course, but I don't know who all the participants are

If lacking a judge became a big issue, I think it'd be better to use an 'every participant is a judge' system, where every participant ranks the other builds from worst to best for the categories, as that should create a mostly unbiased result because of its system, and not just because of trust.

[RaiKirah]

On the one hand, I agree that I trust Zaq to make unbiased judgements.

The problem is that it isn't 100% guaranteed by the setup that there is no bias. Like, it'd only take one disgruntled participant to complain about bias, which couldn't be disproven because Zaq does have access to the info about who made the builds, to just create a big stink. I hope that that wouldn't happen of course, but I don't know who all the participants are

If lacking a judge became a big issue, I think it'd be better to use an 'every participant is a judge' system, where every participant ranks the other builds from worst to best for the categories, as that should create a mostly unbiased result because of its system, and not just because of trust.

Ranked choice from the participants might be the way to go at this point (though if folks put in two entries it might make the scoring unbalanced). I could also bow out and judge if needed.

[MinimanMidget]

I guess I'll have a go at judging this round.

[RaiKirah]

I guess I'll have a go at judging this round.

Thanks friend!

[Zaq]

Hey team. I've been in a weird place mentally the past week or so (for reasons that those of you in the US--or paying attention to the US--can probably guess; I will say that as of today, I am guardedly optimistic, I am taking nothing for granted, and I am mentally wrung the hell out) and haven't been paying attention to this forum. I do apologize. One of my roles is to be promoter and cheerleader for this contest, and I've been remiss. Sorry.

Is anyone currently in the middle of judging, or do I need to start finding an alternative?

[MinimanMidget]

Is anyone currently in the middle of judging, or do I need to start finding an alternative?

I'm still working on it. Just, all of the perfectly valid reasons why I didn't want to judge this round in the first place still apply (well, except the debilitating Hades addiction), plus I've been in a really weird place lately. I'll try to pick up the pace.

[Zaq]

I can hardly fault someone for having a debilitating Hades addiction. Game's super absorbing.

[daremetoidareyo]

What's the next round gonna be?

[MinimanMidget]

Sorry for the wait, everyone - this was a tough round to judge, and the timing was bad for me in terms of real life, too. I'm not convinced I've done a good job here, but it's long past time I put judgements up.

Global judging note: Crafting is problematic. The contest rules aren't clear on how xp works, and whether you can afford to lose some. (For example, if everyone gets the same amount of experience, that being precisely enough to get to level 6 and unlock 10 E6 feats, any magic item crafting would prevent you from getting the final E6 feat.) There's also potentially an issue with gold, too. My general rule when judging is to allow mundane items and ignore any magic items, since most builds don't assume they have access and we want a level playing field. There's obviously a big difference between "my character can craft these items" and "my character wants to buy these items", but I still feel weird about assuming you can fund your crafting, but others can't buy magic items.

Spoiler: Grig-Yere

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Spoiler: Originality

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2 grigs in play, but still. 4 levels for 1 HD, and really only one interesting ability? It didn't occur to me anyone would pick this one, let alone 2 people. (+0.75)

Crusader/Artificer, cabers, martial scripts? You're doing some weird stuff I've never seen before. (+1)

Overall: 4.75

Spoiler: Power

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Access to every manuever, even via scrolls, is really all you need to win fights. (Although every item costs you experience and gold.) Multiple areas of irresistible dance and your caber-tossing nonsense are really just icing on the cake at that point. (+0.75)

Defensively, while your hp pool is on the low side, your AC is great. Your Fort and Ref are solid, while your Will is low, but then you have a decent amount of spell resistance, too. And, of course, you have (via crafting) access to defensive manuevers and low-level spells, as well as solid stealth abilities and flight. Not to mention, you're pretty likely to win initiative and murder opponents before they have the chance to hit you. (+0.5)

Outside of combat, stealth is always useful, particularly in combination with flight, although you don't have the senses to be the party scout on your own. Your SLAs will come in handy, and there are utility manuevers, as well as everything Artificer gives you. You'll probably always find a way to contribute, but you'll have to be creative. And, of course, using items comes at a cost. (+0.25)

Overall: 4.5

Spoiler: Elegance

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I'm not going to penalise for it, but the ruling from the chair for this round was that we would treat 1/2 HD as 1 HD.

You didn't assign all of your skill points at levels 1 and 4 for...some reason? I guess I'm not going to penalise this either, but it's not something I'd recommend doing in a contest.

Cabers are 3.0 material, and even by 3.0 standards they're pretty dodgy. Then on top of that you're using the 3.5 weapon size rules but assuming they don't reduce the damage you deal. Then there's the interaction with invisibility, which is hard to disprove but also dodgy. (-0.5)

The ghost pipes spell is also 3.0 material, but it's pretty straightforward, and not really dodgy at all. That said, I am going to ping you here, because animate instrument from Complete Scoundrel does the same thing, except as a 2nd level spell. (-0.25)

The interaction between artificers and martial scripts probably works, but I also definitely consider it (extremely) dodgy. (-0.5)

The etch schema feat requires caster level 10th, so assuming that "SLAs are cast as a 9th-level sorcerer" works, it still leaves you short here. (-0.5)

Crafting! So much crafting! This is going to be a bigger penalty than normal, because you're so dependent on it. (-1)

Overall: 2.25

Spoiler: Use of the Secret Ingredient

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You've put a ton of work into exploiting the grig's unique strengths and patching its specific weaknesses. (+1)

However, your Artificer/Crusader combo is carrying a disproportionate amount of the weight here. (-0.5)

Overall: 3.5

Total: 15

Spoiler: Lady Ilvith

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Spoiler: Originality

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I'm not shocked to see an aranea, but I wouldn't say it was an obvious choice, either. (+0.5)

Your main focus is spitting poison, which is reasonably well-worn ground for anyone with a poisonous bite. That said, pretending to be a drow is a cool occupation for an aranea, and your fluff is fun. (-0.25)

Overall: 3.25

Spoiler: Power

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Poison spitting is cool, and your numbers on it are great, but as a primary combat strategy it does have some problems. I will say that I think Str damage is underrated - it's not as deadly as Con damage, but against high-Str monsters it weakens them significantly, and against low-Str monsters it kills them quickly, so it's a win either way. The most obvious problem, though, is that there's a ton of monsters that are immune to poison. You mentioned the longbow as a backup, but your numbers on it are...less impressive. (-0.5)

Defensively speaking, your hp pool is on the low side, your AC is good, your Fort and Ref are solid, and your Will is atrocious. You mention hit-and-run as a tactic, but your stealth abilities aren't exactly good enough to rely on. (-0.5)

In terms of out of combat utility, you've got stealth, Spot/Listen, and Bluff, but none of your numbers are particularly impressive. You've got some utility in the form of spells, too, but not a lot. As much as I like this build, I think Lady Ilvith is definitely better suited to being a cool NPC than an adventurer. (-0.5)

Overall: 1.5

Spoiler: Elegance

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I genuinely can't find anything to penalise here.

Overall: 5

Spoiler: Use of the Secret Ingredient

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I'm having trouble judging this one - on the face of it, almost all of your feats go towards spitting poison (and the ones that don't aren't especially aranea-ish), but something about the build just feels right. Maybe it's the excellent writeup and fluff, maybe it's the Craft(weaving), but I want to give you a higher score here than I think I really should. (+0.5)

On the other hand, you consistently spelled aranea wrong :P

Overall: 3.5

Total: 13.25

Spoiler: The Messenger

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Spoiler: Originality

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Okay, trumpet archon is the one monster class I was certain someone would use. That cleric casting is just too tasty to pass up. (-1)

There's a lot of standard feats here. Even your most unusual feat, Momentary Alteration, just lets you alter self into a dwarven ancestor, which isn't a new idea. (-0.5)

Overall: 1.5

Spoiler: Power

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I'm not exactly overwhelmed by The Messenger as a melee attacker. That said, the buffs available to you more than make up for that, and, of course, your Cleric casting stands on its own anyway. On top of that you've got your trumpet, too, as well as your healing abilities. I will say that I don't think Knowledge Devotion is doing as much for you as you've invested into it - the feat, and a significant fraction of your skill points, for what amounts to a slight accuracy increase? It's not Weapon Focus, but it's not that much better, either. And Weapon Focus doesn't require any skill points. Anyway, that's a tangent - it just feels like a bit of a waste. (+0.75)

Defensively speaking, your max hp is a little low (but tied for best this round) and your AC is decent (or fantastic when you're cosplaying as a stone dwarf). Your Fort and Ref are both decent, and your Will is great. You have an impressive flight speed, a bit of DR, and electricity resistance (for whatever that's worth). Of course, all of that kind of pales in comparison with the defensive capabilities on offer with 7th-level Cleric casting. (+0.75)

Outside of combat, you're a pretty good party radar. You've got some knowledges under your belt, but not to the point of being a true party encyclopedia. You've got a rank in each of the stealth skills, but honestly with your totals, trying to sneak around is likely to backfire. Suggestion is handy, even if it's only 1/day, and constant tongues is cool, although it'd be better if you had any social skills to go with it. If you go weary of the adventuring life,you can always make a steady income selling continual flame torches. The Summon Elemental reserve feat is famously useful, and above all else (again), you have 7th-level Cleric casting. (+0.5)

Overall: 5

Spoiler: Elegance

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Your reshuffled skill table only used 7/8 skill points at level 5 - not something I'm going to penalise for. Also, Knowledge Devotion gives you your choice of Knowledges as a permanent class skill, which you haven't taken advantage of.

You also didn't take your ability score increase at 4HD. The description in Savage Species both refers to a table that would indicate that you get it, and also says monster classes say in their entries when you get it (which none of them do). What someone wrote in their handbook without justifying is immaterial here. But anyway, none of this matters, because the chair's ruling for the round (which is what does matter) is that you get it. Obviously I'm not going to penalise you, but I thought it was worth pointing out.

Huh. I really thought there was a rule that you had to be a spellcaster to take metamagic feats, but I can't find anything.

By Craft Magic Item, you mean Craft Wondrous Item. That's fine, but crafting is still an issue for me. (-0.5)

Otyugh Hole: Yeah, no. If it helps, this is pretty much exactly the same as taking a flaw, since it boils down to "give me a feat for free". Contest rules are that flaws are -1. (-1)

Momentary Alteration is cool, but "Drink a potion of alter self or something to qualify for it" is, uh...let's just say it's a pretty laidback approach to qualifying for a feat that you're taking twice. You can't craft said potion, so essentially your build requires you to be able to buy (or otherwise obtain) a specific magic item. (-0.5)

No sources? You had time to shuffle your skills around, and write 1353 words about your build process on top of what you'd already written, but you didn't have time to do a quick source list? This is always my least favourite penalty to give, because it's not a reflection on the build at all. (-1)

Overall: 2

Spoiler: Use of the Secret Ingredient

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This is another difficult one to judge in this category. On the one hand, you've mostly optimised around your Cleric casting. On the other, that's something you got from trumpet archon, and, of course, you're a 7th-level cleric, which is normally impossible within E6. (+0.5)

Outside of that, you're taking advantage of your Outsider type with Momentary Alteration, and you mention all of the other cool toys trumpet archon gives you, even if you aren't really doing anything in particular with them. (+0.25)

Overall: 3.75

Total: 12.25

Spoiler: Polly Aimery

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Spoiler: Originality

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Of all the fey folk available, pixies definitely have the most going for them. Still, there were plenty much more obvious choices on offer. (+0.25)

It's tempting to say something like "polymorph shenanigans are a common type of shenanigan", but reading through the essay you've written, there's some really cool ideas there that I haven't seen before. I especially like the "shaped soulmelds last forever" trick, which every Chameleon should be using with their floating feat. That said, your end goal of becoming an arrow demon is very much familiar ground. (+0.5)

Overall: 3.75

Spoiler: Power

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You have a bunch of strong 1/day spells, plus more uses with crafting, and sleep arrows are surprisingly useful. Also, I guess being a permanently invisible arrow demon probably lets you kill some things. Or, you know, most things. (Even with your significantly lower attack bonus.) (+0.5)

In terms of defense, your hp pool is either pitiful (as a pixie) or just small (as an arrow demon). Your AC (with mage armour on) is pretty good as a pixie, and great as an arrow demon. Your Fort is pretty bad as a pixie, but good as an arrow demon thanks to its (frankly ridiculous) Con score. Your Ref and Will are decent in both forms. Your soulmelds provide you with some nice miscellaneous defenses, and the arrow demon comes with some nice ones too - hefty spell resistance, various energy immunities and resistances, and a bit of DR to boot. Abrupt Jaunt is cool too. Then on top of all that, you're pretty sneaky in both forms, which always helps. (+0.75)

Outside of combat, you're great at being sneaky, and you've got a good Listen score, although your Spot is less good - you're a solid scout, but with some deficiencies. Your Bluff score is decent, but lower than I would like, since failed Bluff checks tend to be more of a problem than failed Diplomacy checks. You've got a bit of Diplomacy too, but I'd definitely consider Polly a backup party face rather than the dedicated social butterfly. Many of your SLAs have solid utility outside of combat, and you can probably find creative uses for memory loss arrows. (+0.5)

Overall: 4.75

Spoiler: Elegance

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I checked using a diff tool, and your invisible entry is identical to your visible entry. I don't know whether to be glad I didn't have to decide what to do about any differences, or sad you didn't put any easter eggs in there.

I'm not convinced that gaining Int bonus gives you extra languages - I get that you're still on your 1st HD, but bonus languages happens at your 1st level. In any case, it's not something I'm going to penalise for. If nothing else, I'm always glad to see builds talking about their languages, because it's often left out.

What is it with everyone crafting this round? On top of that, you're also talking about using a ton of consumables, further draining your WBL (that this contest doesn't even assume you have in the first place, I might add). (-1)

Immediate Magic is an ACF that trades the wizard's familiar. I'm not sure what you thought you were trading, or if you thought all specialist wizards just get it for free, or what. (-0.5)

I don't think you can take Ability Focus (special arrows) - you have the ability to craft the arrows, not the arrows as a special attack. On the other hand, regular pixies have it listed as a special attack in their statblock, and it's not exactly a big deal anyway, so I'm happy not to give a penalty here.

Polymorph is limited by the target's (your) HD, not just the caster's CL. So you're limited to forms with 2 HD or less. Which means most of what you've described Polly doing...doesn't actually work. (-1)

The doppelganger's Change Shape special quality is different to polymorph - the only things it gains from the new form are "the natural weapons, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form." So using polymorph to become a doppelganger and then using Change Shape to become a human won't give you the bonus feat and therefore won't allow you to perform the crafting or soulmelding you describe. (-0.5)

Plane shift is pretty inaccurate, so even assuming Polly somehow (with her 0 ranks in Knowledge (the planes)) knows about the Catalogues of Enlightenment, her odds of making it there are pretty terrible. Not to mention that it's a level 8 encounter and therefore arguably shouldn't exist within E6. (-0.5)

A silithar is a swarm, so you can't polymorph into one. Even in its coalesced form, it's still a swarm (the silithar entry is very clear about this). It also can't use its Warp Flesh ability on itself. (-0.5)

Overall: 1

Spoiler: Use of the Secret Ingredient

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Your primary focus is on polymorph, but then thats's an ability you got from Pixie. Of course, the whole point of polymorph is to turn into a different monster, which I can't help but feel counts against you a little when the SI is a monster. (-0.25)

With that said, although you haven't done anything in particular with most of your other Pixie abilities, you've obviously put a lot of thought into how to use them, and your writeup is delightful. Not to mention, swapping out Dodge for a useful feat is simply brilliant. (+0.5)

Overall: 3.25

Total: 12.75

Spoiler: Robyn Goodfellow

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Spoiler: Originality

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2 grigs in play, but still. 4 levels for 1 HD, and really only one interesting ability? It didn't occur to me anyone would pick this one, let alone 2 people. (+0.75)

I was always expecting to see a Totemist, but that's because of all the natural attacks on offer. Totemist on grig makes no sense at face value. Your focus on Attune Fiddle isn't surprising, but you've done some interesting things to boost it. Your flesh to stone/earth elemental trick is cool too. (+0.75)

Overall: 4.5

Spoiler: Power

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Attune Fiddle is pretty great, and some (though not all) of your SLAs are handy to have in a fight. Your totemist tricks are cool too, and give you a way of actually dealing damage, but not a lot of damage - it feels like your build is begging for some incarnum feats. That said, you're primary focus is on BFC, and that's fine. Flesh to stone + earth elemental is going to be an annoyance for your DM, but however they rule on it, it's a cool trick that I think most people would agree is going to do some amount of damage, if not kill outright. (+0.5)

You don't have much max hp to speak of, but your AC is great. Your Fort is okay, your Ref is fantastic (and you have Evasion to boot), and your Will is terrible. You also have a nice amount of SR, and I appreciate that you took Reactive Resistance to go with it. You're very stealthy, which always helps, especially when combined with your Ref and Evasion, since (as you point out) it makes it harder to bypass finding you by blowing you up with AoE. You're also very likely to win initiative and get your enemies dancing before they have a chance to attack you. Your biggest weakness is probably that you can't really be stealthy while fiddling, at which point you become a priority target for anyone not already dancing. (-0.25)

Outside of combat, you're still very sneaky, and you've got a bit of Spot and Listen, although not as much as a true scout should have. Many of your SLAs have great non-combat utility, and there's a lot you can do with an earth elemental familiar, especially since bonded familiar means you don't have to be as careful with it as normal. Even just 2 totemist levels gives you access to a lot of utility as well, although only if you have the time and information to prepare, since your melds are spoken for. Overall you'll probably always be handy to have around. (+0.5)

Overall: 3.75

Spoiler: Elegance

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I'm going to ping you here for your flesh to stone + earth elemental trick - that's going to give any potential DM a bit of a headache, since they have to decide exactly what it does to an enemy, and not just as a one-time ruling, since you have every intention of doing it throughout your career. (-0.25)

I don't often give bonuses in Elegance, but Dragonsong's interaction with Attune Fiddle is honestly just beautiful. (+0.25)

I also appreciate that you called out the pre-req for Open Least Chakra as requiring CL, not HD - there's at least one other build relying on the same principle which doesn't mention it. And finally, for what it's worth, I do think that "cast as a 9th-level sorcerer" means you have CL 9 rather than 3.

Overall: 5

Spoiler: Use of the Secret Ingredient

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They fey feats definitely count as part of your SI for me. (+0.25)

Your totemist and familiar tricks don't, but they are taking advantage of your fiddle ability. (+0.25)

Overall: 3.5

Total: 16.75

Spoiler: Stigandr

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Spoiler: Originality

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The ghaele is definitely one of the more obvious choices, but it exists very much in the shadow of the trumpet archon. (-0.5)

For the most part, your feat choices aren't particularly weird or interesting, but they're not exactly standard optimization fare, either. I will say that I've never seen Natural Heavyweight before, and to be honest I have no idea why you took it, either. (+0.25)

Overall: 2.75

Spoiler: Power

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Stigandr's innate melee abilities aren't impressive, but with buffs and natural attacks from alter self they start looking a lot better. Your storm bolt attack is a solid ranged option, although I've never been a fan of line areas. You've got some great SLAs (I'm sorry, wall of force?), some great SLAs. And, of course, you have 6th-level cleric casting. (+0.75)

In terms of defense, your max hp is a little low (but tied for best this round), and your AC is pretty bad, except when you're pretending to be a statue. Your saves are all decent, and you've got a bit of SR, as well as some minor energy resistances. You have a permanent magic circle against evil, and on top of all of that you (still) have 6th-level cleric casting. (+0.5)

In terms of out of combat utility, you've got solid numbers for Hide/Move Silently, Spot/Listen, and Sense Motive, making you a good scout and party radar. You've got some knowledges, and plenty of your SLAs will be useful when you're not killing things. You can make money on the side selling continual flame torches, and (of course), you have 6th-level cleric casting. (+0.75)

Overall: 5

Spoiler: Elegance

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You've got an extra skill point at level 2. (-0.25)

It's completely unimportant, but you don't have the (crappy) base saves of a Paladin, you have the (only good thing about them) base saves of a Monk.

You've taken 2 crafting feats, but as your build doesn't require any crafting to function or assume any access to magic items, crafted or otherwise, I don't see any need for a penalty here.

Overall: 4.75

Spoiler: Use of the Secret Ingredient

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Your feats enhance the ghaele's natural capabilities, and mostly feel like natural choices. Overall, you're a ghaele that I could absolutely imagine seeing in a WotC-published book. (+1)

Overall: 4

Total: 16.5

[MinimanMidget]

Also, I promise it's a coincidence that I put the judgement up just after dare started asking about the next round.

[RaiKirah]

Thanks for the Judgements MinimanMidget! No disputes here.

[daremetoidareyo]

No disputes here either

[DeTess]

Thanks for judging! No disputes here either.

[daremetoidareyo]

Hey little buddy, i see that you're on page 2. Here's a little bump. Maybe that'll relight that pilot light.

[Zaq]

Hey team! I'm sorry I've been MIA. I don't even have an excuse. I'm just tired and unfocused from, well, life in 2020. (Even though I've got it better than most, personally.) Lemme make a table and let's get this show on the road.

[Zaq]

Build	Monster	Judgment	Place	Chef
Grig-Yere	Grig	15	Bronze	daremetoidareyo
Lady Ilvith	Aranea	13.25	4th	DeTess
The Messenger	Trumpet Archon	12.25	6th	ATHATH
Polly Aimery	Pixie	12.75	5th, Hon. mention	Darrin
Robyn Goodfellow	Grig	16.75	Gold	RaiKirah
Stigandr	Ghaele	16.5	Silver	PrismCat21

Congrats to our medalists RaiKirah, PrismCat21, and daremetoidareyo! HM goes to Darrin for simply making me laugh with the audacity of the invisible text and playing the joke far enough. Thanks beyond measure to MinimanMidget for judging and thanks to everyone for putting up with long delays caused by strong malaise!

New round here!

[thorr-kan]

Congratulations to our winners!

[daremetoidareyo]

I cant believe my cheese monster placed

[RaiKirah]

I had a blast with this round, and am thrilled that Robyn did well! I really enjoyed all the other entries, and I need to give a particular shout out to Poly for bringing that paragraph of Desert Wind Dodge to my attention, because I had no idea, and I would 100% take Desert Wind Dodge over regular Dodge any day of the week, which I can now do! :)