How do you guys use fiend's summoning abilities?

[gogogome]

Do you never use them, or do you give them 100% success chance?

[Crake]

Do you never use them, or do you give them 100% success chance?

I generally use them as published, if they have a % chance, i roll it, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but they also don't use it frivolously, because, as stated, demons don't like to be indebtted to other demons.

[XionUnborn01]

I generally use them as published, if they have a % chance, i roll it, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but they also don't use it frivolously, because, as stated, demons don't like to be indebtted to other demons.

Basically this. They're not opening up the fight with summoning unless there's a good reason. They'd usually rather escape and come back later if they're not on a timeline.

[gogogome]

I don't like the % thing because if the players don't expect to fight the summon then that % is basically a save-or-TPK. Because if the summon succeeds its a TPK.
If the players do expect to fight the summon then the fiend failing that % is highly disappointing.
If I boost the % to 100 then the fiends are a very tough encounter even if the players are expecting it so they usually can't last 4 encounters.
If I remove the summon altogether they're pretty easy which is a problem too. Not as big of a problem as the above but still a tiny problem.

[Vaern]

I don't like the % thing because if the players don't expect to fight the summon then that % is basically a save-or-TPK. Because if the summon succeeds its a TPK.
If the players do expect to fight the summon then the fiend failing that % is highly disappointing.
If I boost the % to 100 then the fiends are a very tough encounter even if the players are expecting it so they usually can't last 4 encounters.
If I remove the summon altogether they're pretty easy which is a problem too. Not as big of a problem as the above but still a tiny problem.

The game recommends occasionally throwing encounters at the party the present overwhelming odds against them, whose primary solution is meant to be "run away." The game doesn't correct the players to beat everything you throw at them, and both players and the DM seem to have a tendency to forget that retreating from the encounter is an option, unless the encounter is deliberately staged in such a way that it is not. A demon summoning help doesn't automatically mean the party dies; it means they should run if they think they can't win.
Also, I don't think RNG on an ability working or not is a big deal in a game where the success, failure, and magnitude of literally every other action is already determined by throwing dice.

[nedz]

It depends on the encounter setup but powerful demons should summon weaker ones without compunction.

Also if you have several relatively weak demons then there is a chance that some of their summons should work.
If this results in an encounter being, randomly, too tough then a competent party will bug out and come back later.

[Kol Korran]

I ran about 2/3rds of Paizo's AP Wrath of The Righteous, in which about 80% or more of the enemies are demons.

Some of my conclusions about summons, takenit as you will:
# Summons are far from encounter breaking. Even if it's only a single demon, who summons 1 more like it (Usually the stronger choice), the effective threat is but CR +2, hardly a TPK. And if you got multiple demon who summon only some of them succeed, which means the threat isn't even CR +2. (And before people chime in saying the summoning is part of the demon's abilities and shouldn't affect CR for experience... it doesn't. But the threat changes).

#Summmoning is often a risky gamble for the demons. For several reasons:
- It's not guaranteed to work. If it doesn't, it just wasted its action.
- It is a 1 round action. Meanung that once a demon starts summoning, there is 1 round in which this can get disrupted.
- Most effects of summons can be shut down in fairly simple ways, especially if the opponents (PCs) expect demons.
- The demon can use it but once a day... so it's like a top level spell of the PCs. Will they use it quickly, or preseerce it?

All of these mean that summoning ain't exactly the top choice for action for most demons... I'll detail later when I think it should be used and how to handle it.

# Ways to counter summoning:
My group was expecting demons for quite a lot of the campaign, and they developed many ways to deal with summoning. Some simple ways:
- protection from evil. Either in spell or potion form. 1st level spell. Stops most effects of summons.
- Once a demon starts to summon? Focus fire on the demon. Usually one of the hits/ spells will disrupt it.
- demons got summoned? For the most part ignore it, and again focus fire on the summoner. Once it's dead, the summons go away.
- counter spelling with scrolls/wands of summon monster of a high enough level. (The party always discussed it, though they never tried it.

So, how did I handle demon summons:
================================
# I didn't alter the summon precentages. Part of my GMing rules is that the players roll all the dice, for monsters as well, and ecerything is in the open. Demon summons is a known ability, and there are ways to deal with it. You are adventurers, deal with it. If the summon roubd finishedx the players roll the precentages dice to see if it succeeded. If not, though break for the demon.
I have seen some summons make battles harder, but only rarely did they alter the encountet drastically. It's an interesting ability, but far from game/ encounter breaking.

# I played the demon, including the choice of using summoning instead of other actions, due to all the considerations written above.

# I would usually use summons in one of the following situations:
=> The demon estimates the PCs are dangerous (Due to reputation, killing other demons before it, and more).
=> They can attack from ambush/ protective location (So there is little chance for disrupting the summons).
=> There are several demons, or they have allies. In which case, some demons will stay back/ at protective points while the rest occupy the party's focus while they summon. If there are several demons, then some engage the party, while some stay back and summon, and then they reverse roles, enabling the former frontliners to now summon.
=> Their bosses (usually higher demons) command them.
=> As part of mass combat.
=> when things are desperate, and retreat is not an option (because the demon was dimesnion locked, they must protect an onbjectivr or other reason)

# What to summon?
Summons usually have 4 roles in my experience:
=> Meat shield/ Blocks/ Disruption: The demons needs a wall between it and the PCs? Summon a bunch of lower demons. They will hold for a while.
= >SLAs: Often, other demons, even lower ones will have useful abilities. Even if their DCs are lower, if enough are used, then there isa good chance some PC will fail. (Even a dretch's stinking cloud ability is useful).
=> Lock down casters/ ranged characters: Those pesky archers/ casters? How about putting some Babus near them? Let them worry about those for awhile.
=> Brute/ damage dealer. This often is the less optimal use of the ability, but at certain situations it can still work.

Due to the reasons and uses above, most times my demons summoned groupa of lesser demons, instead of another of their kind.

That's at least my take on it. You may decide otherwise.
Good luck!

[Crake]

It's also worth noting that as a SLA with a duration, a demon's summon is entirely subject to dispel magic, and as a summon spell, is also protected from by magic circle/protection from evil, so while it can be difficult to deal with, a summoned demon is not the same as having a second actual demon there.

[icefractal]

A demon summoning help doesn't automatically mean the party dies; it means they should run if they think they can't win.

TBF though, Demons are one of the worse types of foes to need to run from:
* While not extraordinarily fast, most of them can teleport
* They're usually extremely malevolent and don't keep promises - bad for surrendering to
* They don't care much about food/gold/anything else you might toss behind you.

Although hopefully by the time you're fighting a lot of demons, "run away" actually means "teleport away".

[sleepyphoenixx]

TBF though, Demons are one of the worse types of foes to need to run from:
* While not extraordinarily fast, most of them can teleport
* They're usually extremely malevolent and don't keep promises - bad for surrendering to
* They don't care much about food/gold/anything else you might toss behind you.

Although hopefully by the time you're fighting a lot of demons, "run away" actually means "teleport away".

Using self-only teleports to pursue the party just gives them free shots at the demons. Especially if they start readying actions.
Moving next to your enemies with no actions left to attack is probably the biggest losing move you can make in D&D and most demons are rather lacking in swift/free action attacks.

You might get the occassional AoO if your players are stupid but otherwise you're just sending your demons to be slaughtered, and that's before factoring in spells like Dimension Lock or Anticipate Teleportation.

[Crake]

Using self-only teleports to pursue the party just gives them free shots at the demons. Especially if they start readying actions.
Moving next to your enemies with no actions left to attack is probably the biggest losing move you can make in D&D and most demons are rather lacking in swift/free action attacks.

You might get the occassional AoO if your players are stupid but otherwise you're just sending your demons to be slaughtered, and that's before factoring in spells like Dimension Lock or Anticipate Teleportation.

Depends on where they teleport, they can easily teleport a round ahead of the players and set up an ambush from hiding, or if they have ranged attacks, just use teleport to keep within decent range of their attacks.

It's worth noting that summoned creatures can't use their teleportation abilities though.