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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Troll in the Playground
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    Jul 2011
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    Tula, Russia
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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by CasualViking View Post
    The intent of "fixed range" is spells like Detect Magic, Detect Evil that have 60' ranges, but really only affect the caster.
    And what's about the Holy Aura? Its range is clearly fixed, but it protects not just the caster...

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2019

    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    I highly doubt DMM was meant to allow someone to be able to cast illegal spells. Metamagic increases the level of the spell you are casting while having it function at its original level. Minimum caster level would require 13 caster levels to use a persisted mage armor regardless of the slot used.

    Quote Originally Posted by DMM
    When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat that you have. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat. As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know. You must spend one turn or rebuke attempt, plus an additional attempt for each level increase in the metamagic feat you're using. For example, Jozan the cleric could sacrifice three turn attempts to empower a holy smite he's casting. Because you're using positive or negative energy to augment your spells, the spell slot for the spell doesn't change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Echoing Spell
    An echoing spell is first cast as normal. After 1 hour, the spell then returns to you as if it had been prepared an additional time, and can be cast again at any time. However, the second time the echoing spell is cast, you treat your caster level as four lower for the purpose of effect, area, range, duration, and overcoming spell resistance. This process repeats itself every time the spell is cast, reducing your effective caster level by four until your effective raster level is no longer high enough to cast the original spell (at which point the spell is not regained).

    For example, a 9th-level wizard has an echoing Melfs Acid Arrow prepared. She casts the spell the first time at 9th level, giving her maximum long range and dealing acid damage for 4 rounds (1 round + 1 round per three levels). After 1 hour, she can cast the spell again as a 5th-level caster, reducing its range and dealing acid damage for 2 rounds. The spell cannot be regained a third time, however, because her effective caster level of 1st would be below the minimum level needed to cast the spell.
    This makes Sudden Metamagic make a lot more sense:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudden Maximize
    Once per day, you can apply the effect of the Maximize Spell feat to any spell you cast without increasing the level of the spell or specially preparing it ahead of time. You can still use Maximize Spell normally if you have it.
    The player handbook specifically mentions that you cast metamagic at a higher level, when you stack metamagics the changes in level are cumulative, and metamagics effect the level limit for magic items made with a metamagic spell based on the increased spell level.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2013

    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by bean illus View Post
    A cleric with 3 turning pools, a 16 cha, and 1 extra turning feat, gets 30 TUs? That's neither difficult, nor rare in a high level game.
    I don't give them multiple turning pools. It just expands the types of creatures they can turn.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2009

    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    This makes Sudden Metamagic make a lot more sense:
    That's ... an interesting reading, but it's a bit of a stretch to infer that "level of the spell" means "minimum caster level" rather than "spell level"—which, granted, isn't generally affected by metamagic in the first place, but is often confused with the (adjusted) spell slot the spell takes up ... including by the PHB feat section's discussion of metamagic itself:

    Quote Originally Posted by Metamagic Feats
    The cost of doing so, however, is that in preparing the spell, she must use up a spell slot one spell level higher than the spell actually is. Thus, if she prepares charm person as a silent spell, it takes up one of her 2nd-level slots. It is still only a 1st-level spell, so the DC for the Will save against it does not go up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell
    A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative.
    So it's pretty clear that the "level of a spell" is generally used to indicate the spell slot it takes up, since that's the only kind of level metamagic feats generally change, and also because assuming this line refers to some other level basically implies that metamagic spell slot level changes don't stack, and that would be a stupid reading.


    It's true there's a lot of rules text which implies that spells have minimum caster levels to cast them, not the least of which is

    Quote Originally Posted by Casting Spells → Caster Level
    You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
    Minimum caster levels are, however, rather poorly defined in the rules. We know that they exist, since rules keep talking about them, and we get lots of specific examples. We get a few hints that imply that they're related to the class level at which they're gained. Indeed, we can infer minimum caster levels by spell level for the core classes based on the scroll price tables, which claim that they "assume that the scroll was made at the minimum caster level"—and there's a typo on 6th level with no errata, oops??

    But since the only solid source we have for minimum caster levels links them to spell levels (whether or not they're confused with spell slots), and DMM doesn't increase either, there's not much basis for inferring a change to the minimum caster level anyway.

    And even if it did, well, turns out there's this particular line in ELH:
    Spells with an effective level of 10th or higher are possible at epic levels. Because these spell slots aren’t automatically gained at a particular level like 0- to 9th-level spells are, they don’t have a minimum caster level. For this reason, the minimum caster level for any spell of 10th level or higher is set at 11 + spell level.
    So if you can boost your caster level to to 25th (where did you puts your beads of karma?), you're definitely clear to persist those 9ths!

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2019

    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by sreservoir View Post
    That's ... an interesting reading, but it's a bit of a stretch to infer that "level of the spell" means "minimum caster level" rather than "spell level"—which, granted, isn't generally affected by metamagic in the first place, but is often confused with the (adjusted) spell slot the spell takes up ... including by the PHB feat section's discussion of metamagic itself:

    So it's pretty clear that the "level of a spell" is generally used to indicate the spell slot it takes up, since that's the only kind of level metamagic feats generally change, and also because assuming this line refers to some other level basically implies that metamagic spell slot level changes don't stack, and that would be a stupid reading.
    The PHB also has this line:

    Quote Originally Posted by PHB
    Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell

    In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell.
    The spell is prepared and cast as a higher level spell and operates (can't operate until after casting) at it's original spell level. Why bother saying something other than simply uses higher level spell slots in a section explaining rules if that isn't the case.

    Another line under the Metamagic feats header:

    Quote Originally Posted by PHB
    Magic Items and Metamagic Spells

    With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.
    Emphasis mine. If metamagic feats did not change the level of the spell, there would not need to be a mention of level limits for potions and wands. Heighten is unique and would be a lot less confusing to mention Heighten as it is the only one that actually increases spell level (after casting) if it was the reason for the clause. Without metamagic increasing spell level, you end up with people able to pile on a large amount of metamagic on magic items for literally no extra cost and no extra value (doesn't logically make sense that a higher quality version of something wouldn't be worth more).

    The only thing that contradicts this that I can find is in the Metamagic Feats description in the SRD before any rules text:

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    As a spellcaster’s knowledge of magic grows, she can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the ways in which the spells were originally designed or learned. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, at least it is possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.
    Version in the PHB:

    Quote Originally Posted by PHB
    As a spellcaster’s knowledge of magic grows, she can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the ways in which the spells were originally designed or learned. For example, a spellcaster can learn to cast a spell without having to say its verbal component, to cast a spell for greater effect, or even to cast it with nothing but a moment’s thought. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, at least it is possible.

    For instance, at 3rd level, Mialee chooses to gain Silent Spell, the feat that allows her to cast a spell without its verbal component. The cost of doing so, however, is that in preparing the spell, she must use up a spell slot one spell level higher than the spell actually is. Thus, if she prepares charm person as a silent spell, it takes up one of her 2nd-level slots. It is still only a 1st-level spell, so the DC for the Will save against it does not go up. Mialee cannot prepare a 2nd-level spell as a silent spell because she would have to prepare it as a 3rd-level spell, and she can’t use 3rd-level spell slots until she reaches 5th level.
    Quote Originally Posted by sreservoir View Post
    But since the only solid source we have for minimum caster levels links them to spell levels (whether or not they're confused with spell slots), and DMM doesn't increase either, there's not much basis for inferring a change to the minimum caster level anyway.
    DMM does indeed mention the level increase. It just doesn't change the slot being used. In general spell slot and spell level doesn't de-sync like it does with DMM. The reason that is is that it isn't changing anything. It's only substituting the cost of spell slots for turn undead uses. I personally view it this way as I think metamagic cost reduction also reduces the spell level in conjunction.
    Last edited by Darg; 2020-09-25 at 08:49 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2009

    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    The spell is prepared and cast as a higher level spell and operates (can't operate until after casting) at it's original spell level. Why bother saying something other than simply uses higher level spell slots in a section explaining rules if that isn't the case.
    That pretty much is what says; the contortion basically accommodates the fact that some spellcasters do and don't prepare spells.

    You could argue, I suppose, that you need the minimum caster level to cast the spell because it's being cast at the higher spell level, but this at least contradicts the example given for Echoing Spell, because the acid arrow would still be prepared with Echoing; a 5th-level caster could not cast a a 5th-level spell. So that at least can't be how the later author understood the rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Emphasis mine. If metamagic feats did not change the level of the spell, there would not need to be a mention of level limits for potions and wands. Heighten is unique and would be a lot less confusing to mention Heighten as it is the only one that actually increases spell level (after casting) if it was the reason for the clause. Without metamagic increasing spell level, you end up with people able to pile on a large amount of metamagic on magic items for literally no extra cost and no extra value (doesn't logically make sense that a higher quality version of something wouldn't be worth more).
    Your conclusion is backwards. If metamagic feats did change the level of the spell, there would not need to be a mention of level limits for potions and wands. It is only because they do not that this is specified separately in the case of magic items.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    DMM does indeed mention the level increase. It just doesn't change the slot being used. In general spell slot and spell level doesn't de-sync like it does with DMM. The reason that is is that it isn't changing anything. It's only substituting the cost of spell slots for turn undead uses. I personally view it this way as I think metamagic cost reduction also reduces the spell level in conjunction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Metamagic
    You must spend one turn or rebuke attempt, plus an additional attempt for each level increase in the metamagic feat you’re using. For example, Jozan the cleric could sacrifice three turn attempts to empower a holy smite he’s casting. Because you’re using positive or negative energy to augment your spells, the spell slot for the spell doesn’t change.
    The level increase DMM refers to is whatever level increase is mentioned in the metamagic feat you're using. Now let's take a look at a metamagic feat, shall we?

    Quote Originally Posted by Empower Spell
    All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.

    Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.
    The level increases specified by metamagic feats are to the spell slot, not to the spell.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2019

    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by sreservoir View Post
    That pretty much is what says; the contortion basically accommodates the fact that some spellcasters do and don't prepare spells.

    You could argue, I suppose, that you need the minimum caster level to cast the spell because it's being cast at the higher spell level, but this at least contradicts the example given for Echoing Spell, because the acid arrow would still be prepared with Echoing; a 5th-level caster could not cast a a 5th-level spell. So that at least can't be how the later author understood the rule.
    Echoing spell says to keep going until your modified caster level can't cast the original spell aka minimum caster level, but it doesn't actually reduce your caster level:

    Quote Originally Posted by Echoing Spell
    However, the second time the echoing spell is cast, you treat your caster level as four lower for the purpose of effect, area, range, duration, and overcoming spell resistance. This process repeats itself every time the spell is cast, reducing your effective caster level by four until your effective raster level is no longer high enough to cast the original spell (at which point the spell is not regained).

    Quote Originally Posted by sreservoir View Post
    Your conclusion is backwards. If metamagic feats did change the level of the spell, there would not need to be a mention of level limits for potions and wands. It is only because they do not that this is specified separately in the case of magic items.
    I'm only saying it is cast as a higher level spell, not that it is a higher level spell. The fact that level limitations inherent to wands and potions are triggered by metamagic simply means that the level a spell is cast at is modified. A fireball is cast at the time of creation of a wand of maximized fireballs. A maximized fireball is a 3rd level spell, however it is cast as a 6th level spell triggering the level clause preventing the creation of the item as wands can only be 4th level or lower. It might be better to say that spell levels represent the difficulty in casting a spell? The requirement of a higher level spell slot represents the increased difficulty in casting the metamagic spell. Wands and potions can only take spells up to a certain difficulty. The only 2 things affected by this is minimum caster level and concentration checks.

    Quote Originally Posted by sreservoir View Post
    The level increase DMM refers to is whatever level increase is mentioned in the metamagic feat you're using. Now let's take a look at a metamagic feat, shall we?



    The level increases specified by metamagic feats are to the spell slot, not to the spell.
    Exactly. DMM is applying a metamagic feat to a spell. It isnt removing the cost/increase in difficulty in casting the spell. It is simply substituting turn undead attempts for the spell slot. It's still being cast as a higher level spell as you still have the cost associated with metamagic. It's the reason I brought up sudden metamagic as it literally tells you there is no cost to using the metamagic. No increase in level for difficulty in casting the spell and there is no need for special preparation which equates to not needing to prepare the spell or increase the cast time by one step. This makes it one of the few ways around the level limit.
    Last edited by Darg; 2020-09-26 at 12:23 AM.

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