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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    What qualifies as fixed?

    Not touch spells ... but Divine Power can be persisted? So Range: Personal is a go? Anything else i need to know?

    I'm thinking about a buffer. I've read that Chain Spell can be used with DMM Persistent Spell. Is this true?

    But, would you need to take DMM twice? Or pay the Chain Spell with spell slots?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Fixed means a range expressed in a set number of feet, eg 0ft or 60ft, as opposed to a range like Close, which varies depending on level.

    There's a big debate as to whether touch spells count as fixed, with some evidence on both sides. Personally I'd advise against it as it makes an already awesome feat ludicrously powerful.

    Yes, Divine Power is one of the classic DMM: Persist spells. Others include Divine Favor, Holy Star (SpC), Greater Visage of the Deity (SpC), Elation (BoED), Mass Lesser Vigor (SpC), Recitation (SpC) and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (SpC). The last four affect the whole party

    Righteous Might is also eligible but not generally recommended as being Large sized all day can be inconvenient when dungeon-delving or otherwise being indoors.

    If a spell is eligible to be chained it can be used in conjunction with a DMM Persisted spell, but if you want to pay for it using turn attempts rather than spell-slot increases, yes you'd need to take DMM twice.

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    Chimera

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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    The idea of "Fixed" here is something that doesn't change by itself. If you can look at the spell and not have to ask any questions about the range, it's treated as Fixed.

    Personal range spells are fixed, you can only ever affect yourself and the range is a fixed "You". So are spells with 60ft range, 30ft, 0ft, etc. Touch spells on the other hand change range with the caster's reach, so you have to ask "what's your size?" as a baseline when determining range. This is discounting the methods of changing ranges, like the multitude of ways to channel Touch spells from bigger ranges, and looking only at the spell itself.

    Do note that you'd have to talk with your DM about what happens when you change the way a spell works. If you, for example, use Spellguard of Silverymoon's "Spellguard" ability to turn a Personal-range spell into a Touch spell, you need a ruling from the DM, as the RAW can be argued both ways. Please don't derail the topic with this discussion btw.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kayblis View Post
    Personal range spells are fixed, you can only ever affect yourself and the range is a fixed "You". So are spells with 60ft range, 30ft, 0ft, etc. Touch spells on the other hand change range with the caster's reach, so you have to ask "what's your size?" as a baseline when determining range. This is discounting the methods of changing ranges, like the multitude of ways to channel Touch spells from bigger ranges, and looking only at the spell itself.
    [/SUB]
    So, if personal spells are fixed, can divine power be persistent chained? As a dm, I'd be looking for a way to say no ...

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by bean illus View Post
    So, if personal spells are fixed, can divine power be persistent chained? As a dm, I'd be looking for a way to say no ...
    Just use Dispel Magic. One dispel magic and your DMM Persistent cleric is worse than a fighter. There are plenty of monsters with Dispel Magic. Add one to every encounter to also counterspell.

    Use persistent spell yourself. DMM:Persistent Anti-magic Field.

    In a high-magic world, it doesn't make sense to have Dispel commonplace. Just like you bring a tank to fight monsters, you bring a Dispeller to fight adventurers. And a persistent AMF to take out spellcasters.

    As someone who allows DMM:Persistent spell with nightsticks, it ain't that great.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by bean illus View Post
    So, if personal spells are fixed, can divine power be persistent chained? As a dm, I'd be looking for a way to say no ...
    What do you mean chained? Used as a daily buff so that it's got 100% uptime, yes that's what most characters who use that do.

    If someone is using it to meet prerequisites, simply tell them no. Even though it's effectively got 100% uptime, that's a far cry from permanent.

    If it's causing balance issues for the game, just dispel it. I've used permanent Wall of Dispel Magic and similar which is invisible but suddenly everyone's buffs are gone as they proceed. A Hallow or Unhallow can carry a Dispel Magic that automatically hits everyone that doesn't meet a certain criteria that makes it so it won't hit any of the residents. I'm pretty sure they'll be hit with a Dispel Magic every round they're in the area, which you can assume will remove one spell every 20 rounds unless the DC is higher than the max check result.
    Last edited by Biffoniacus_Furiou; 2020-09-20 at 04:10 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by bean illus View Post
    So, if personal spells are fixed, can divine power be persistent chained? As a dm, I'd be looking for a way to say no ...
    Chain Spell affects any spell "that specifies a single target and has a range greater than touch". Since Divine Power has a range of personal, which is not greater than touch, it can't be chained as far as I can see.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Potentially there are shenanigans. Use Ocular Spell to change a spell to 60' range, and then Persist it from there because it suddenly has a fixed range. This is almost certainly not rules as intended, but it can most certainly be argued that it works.

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggus View Post
    Chain Spell affects any spell "that specifies a single target and has a range greater than touch". Since Divine Power has a range of personal, which is not greater than touch, it can't be chained as far as I can see.
    Ocular Spell says it will break all attempts at spell discrimination for persist and chain qualification.

    Edit: beaten to the punch
    Last edited by Darg; 2020-09-20 at 05:32 PM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Ocular Spell says it will break all attempts at spell discrimination for persist and chain qualification.

    Edit: beaten to the punch
    I think it's important to mention here:

    RANGER ARCHERY ACCESS ARE NOT FEATS!
    and
    THEY DO NOT STACK WITH ANYTHING!
    and
    MARTIALS CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS!
    [/rant]

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by bean illus View Post
    So, if personal spells are fixed, can divine power be persistent chained? As a dm, I'd be looking for a way to say no ...
    Honestly it's not really a big deal. A Cleric who rocks Persistent Divine Power and Righteous Might makes the Fighter sad, but it's not really breaking the game. You get decent numbers for hitting something with a stick. But so what? Hitting stuff with a stick is not very good to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Just use Dispel Magic. One dispel magic and your DMM Persistent cleric is worse than a fighter. There are plenty of monsters with Dispel Magic. Add one to every encounter to also counterspell.
    Of course, most Persist-o-mancers will have some kind of counter for this in turn. Like having a really big caster level. And, frankly, if my enemies want to spend their actions trying to remove my buffs instead of killing me, more power to them.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aracor View Post
    Potentially there are shenanigans. Use Ocular Spell to change a spell to 60' range, and then Persist it from there because it suddenly has a fixed range. This is almost certainly not rules as intended, but it can most certainly be argued that it works.
    As Chain Spell and Persistent Spell don't specify one way or the other whether the spell originally has to have a range greater than touch/fixed range or whether they can be applied to ranges which have been changed by means such as Ocular Spell, the OP can just rule the former to be the case.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggus View Post
    As Chain Spell and Persistent Spell don't specify one way or the other whether the spell originally has to have a range greater than touch/fixed range or whether they can be applied to ranges which have been changed by means such as Ocular Spell, the OP can just rule the former to be the case.
    Good point. Depending on power level at the table that's a legitimate way to regulate those feat combinations.

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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by bean illus View Post
    Good point. Depending on power level at the table that's a legitimate way to regulate those feat combinations.
    An ocular spell is stored in your eyes when cast, and can be discharged to set it off. Spells with discharge effects aren't eligible for persistent spell.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    While DMM: Persist is at a power level too high for most campaigns, I find the argument that Touch inherently has a variable range to be unconvincing. All spells with range are affected (very slightly) by the caster's size, as they're measured from a corner of the caster's square. I don't see how Touch is particularly different in this regard.

    Personally speaking, I'd just ban it unless the game was going to be a high-power one.
    Last edited by icefractal; 2020-09-22 at 06:59 PM.

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    Personally speaking, I'd just ban it unless the game was going to be a high-power one.
    Or you could simply use the minimum caster level argument. Metamagic spells are cast as a higher-level spell even though they function as a spell of the original level.

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD: Metamagic Feats
    In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell.
    If you take the handbook literally, metamagic spells are higher level spells until they are cast. This means they have an increased minimum caster level to cast (and a higher concentration check DC).

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    Chimera

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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    All spells with range are affected (very slightly) by the caster's size, as they're measured from a corner of the caster's square. I don't see how Touch is particularly different in this regard.
    Not really. "Range" is defined as the distance between caster and target, or the total distance the effect works on. "Starting point" is affected by caster size, but that's not Range, that's positioning. The same way "You" is a fixed range, "30ft" is fixed even if you happen to be Large+, because no matter where you position the starting point, it still affects a 30ft range from that point.

    Touch, on the other hand, can be 5ft, 10ft, 15ft, etc. You can't answer the "what's the range" question without looking at the variable caster size, as a baseline.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    If you take the handbook literally, metamagic spells are higher level spells until they are cast. This means they have an increased minimum caster level to cast (and a higher concentration check DC).
    Again, not really. A metamagicked spell is explicitly still a spell of the original level, it just takes a higher slot. If you apply Maximize to a Fireball, it takes a 6th level slot, but it's still a 3rd level spell for all purposes, so you can use a Least Empower Rod(lvs 1~3) on it to take advantage of both MMs for considerably cheap. You wouldn't be able to do this if the spell was considered higher level.

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kayblis View Post
    Again, not really. A metamagicked spell is explicitly still a spell of the original level, it just takes a higher slot. If you apply Maximize to a Fireball, it takes a 6th level slot, but it's still a 3rd level spell for all purposes, so you can use a Least Empower Rod(lvs 1~3) on it to take advantage of both MMs for considerably cheap. You wouldn't be able to do this if the spell was considered higher level.
    Where exactly does it say that metamagics are not cast as a higher level spell? I gave a quote that says it is. The operation of a spell doesn't necessarily encompass the entirety of the concept of "spell" unless specified somewhere.

    Let's rewrite the quote to be grammatically the same: Despite the fact that it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level in all ways.

    To phrase it in a different way, a spell doesn't have a function to control (operate) until it is cast. Not to mention the handbook further uses the word "level" instead of "spell slot level" or "level of spell slot" to denote a not yet cast spell:

    A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative.
    Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spellís higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat).
    It's especially relevant for crafting; otherwise you end up with a situation where you can apply any metamagic feat cumulatively for free.

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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kayblis View Post
    Touch, on the other hand, can be 5ft, 10ft, 15ft, etc. You can't answer the "what's the range" question without looking at the variable caster size, as a baseline.
    The range is 0' from the caster's appendage. Where the appendage happens to be? Well that's not Range, that's positioning.
    Last edited by icefractal; 2020-09-23 at 04:13 PM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    The range is 0' from the caster's appendage. Where the appendage happens to be? Well that's not Range, that's positioning.
    That's false. Your character occupies a space in the board. Range is defined as the distance between two characters in the board. Touch being from an appendage makes no difference, and you know it. You simply can't say for sure a Touch spell works or not on an enemy 10ft away without more information, because it's a variable range.

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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Is it defined that way? Regardless, cone effects (like Detect Magic, probably the reason why Persistent Spell allows for fixed range specifically) can originate from any corner of your square. So whether you can reach a particular foe with it requires knowing both the caster's size and what corner they choose it to start from.

    Not an unreasonable amount of info to know, but neither is the caster's reach.
    Last edited by icefractal; 2020-09-23 at 10:06 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kayblis View Post
    That's false. Your character occupies a space in the board. Range is defined as the distance between two characters in the board. Touch being from an appendage makes no difference, and you know it. You simply can't say for sure a Touch spell works or not on an enemy 10ft away without more information, because it's a variable range.
    That's like saying Personal is a variable range because you don't know what person is going to cast any particular spell.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Personal is expressly distinguished from fixed ranges, almost as if the writers didn't consider it to be a fixed range.

    It's notable that FRCS, where the feat was originally printed for 3.0 was errated to change "Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged." to "Spells of instantaneous duration, spells with a range of touch, and spells whose effects are discharged cannot be affected by this feat." No other printings received the errata, and the wording carried through to 3.5e PGtF changing only the slot adjustment (from +4 to +6).

    It's hard to make any definitive claim about what that implies; you could make a case for either "the wording was intended to exclude touch range, and the errata was a clarification" or "the fact that the errata has to specify this implies that the original wording doesn't exclude touch range, so subsequent printings without the errataed text do allow touch range spells to be persisted"; certainly, the exclusions (excluding the errata's addition) are all additional exclusions.

    Honestly, it's pretty likely that Persistent Spell was basically written with the idea that it'd be used for self-buffing, but in the course of checking what spells someone would want to use it for the author came upon detect magic and its ilk, which happen to be written in a weird way such that it has neither a target nor a tangible effect (I think you'd just have to catch it in an area dispel to dispel it?), and then, since the Target line was on their mind, added the "fixed range" condition without thinking very hard about it.

    And really, it's just not a very well thought-out feat. How often do you see it getting used without cost substitution? How often do you see anyone even take it when they don't have some way to cheat it on in a build? (I can think of like three spells whose effect are better enough than their substitutes that they might still be worth paying sticker price to persist?)

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    RogueGuy

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    Thumbs up Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by sreservoir View Post
    And really, it's just not a very well thought-out feat. How often do you see it getting used without cost substitution? How often do you see anyone even take it when they don't have some way to cheat it on in a build? (I can think of like three spells whose effect are better enough than their substitutes that they might still be worth paying sticker price to persist?)
    A cleric with 3 turning pools, a 16 cha, and 1 extra turning feat, gets 30 TUs? That's neither difficult, nor rare in a high level game.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by sreservoir View Post
    And really, it's just not a very well thought-out feat. How often do you see it getting used without cost substitution? How often do you see anyone even take it when they don't have some way to cheat it on in a build? (I can think of like three spells whose effect are better enough than their substitutes that they might still be worth paying sticker price to persist?)
    Honestly that's true of most metamagic. It's not like people are lining up to use Widen or Silent for full freight. The most common usage of non-reduced metamagic is to Extend stuff so it lasts long enough for you to refresh spells, and that barely counts for obvious reasons.

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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by bean illus View Post
    A cleric with 3 turning pools, a 16 cha, and 1 extra turning feat, gets 30 TUs? That's neither difficult, nor rare in a high level game.
    That would be a cost substitution - that's what sreservoir was talking about. It's so common that you don't even think about using Persistent Spell directly; you automatically assume you're using Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell.

    I would argue with that large a turning pool being common or easy, simply because unless you *are* using Divine Metamagic to spam an expensive metamagic (Persist, Twin, Quicken) you just don't really need that many Turn Undeads. It's not worth bending your build around to be an Azurin or be a neutral cleric that Rebukes Undead then go into one of the prestige classes that explicitly grants only Turn Undead or the other contortions you have to do to get multiple distinct pools of abilities that can power Divine feats otherwise; you won't spend the build resources on that unless it's the signature trick of your character (and if it is your signature trick it eats a majority of your build resources to do it - most of your levels and feats go to enabling it. So while the ways to do it are well known and pretty straightforward to access, they also put some severe restrictions on what your build can be and don't allow for much variety beyond it.)

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by bean illus View Post
    So, if personal spells are fixed, can divine power be persistent chained? As a dm, I'd be looking for a way to say no ...
    I have bolded your way to say no.

    Specifically, the answer I would give is, "The rules are not clear, so this requires a DM ruling. I am ruling that it cannot be used that way."

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    That would be a cost substitution - that's what sreservoir was talking about. It's so common that you don't even think about using Persistent Spell directly; you automatically assume you're using Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell.
    Ahhh, i see. By "cost substitute" I thought he meant night sticks.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    Quote Originally Posted by NigelWalmsley View Post
    Honestly that's true of most metamagic. It's not like people are lining up to use Widen or Silent for full freight. The most common usage of non-reduced metamagic is to Extend stuff so it lasts long enough for you to refresh spells, and that barely counts for obvious reasons.
    I'll grant that a lot of the core +1 metamagics are overcosted because the spell level quantum is just that wide, but even then you get solid utility out of most of them if, say, you're a spontaneous caster and don't have a lot of good feat picks in core anyway. And moving up from there, empower is not totally uncompetitive even when comparing blasting, but absolutely worth using even at full price on more exotic effects like mirror image or enervation.

    Quicken you could make perhaps reasonably argue only gets non-reduced usage because, unlike Persistent, it's available in Core games where the options aren't available. Despite that, there are a number of low-to-mid-level effects that are distinct enough that having them in addition to your standard action can compete with spells four levels higher, even if they get overshadowed by natively swift-action spells when you open the books. Even at full cost, it's still a strong enough effect that even at full cost, there are situations where you'd take the option.

    Persistent ... could be used like that. But it's not very good. For er, most of the spells you could apply it to, it's kind of like getting an extra quickened-but-actually-free-action copy of a short-duration spell at the beginning of every encounter (and by short duration, we're talking rounds/level, maybe minutes/level, since by the levels that persistent comes online, 10 min/level lasts long enough that you can just extend/recast it long enough to last the whole day, hours/level will flat-out get better duration out of being extended than being persisted). But at those levels, you have plenty of control over when encounters take place, so it's probably not worth quite as much as ~four quickened slots, but even if it were it'd still not necessarily a great deal at +6, plus the restricted spell selection (and the prereq!).

    So instead we only really use it when the cost can be made orthogonal to spellcasting progression, and then it turns out that, to begin with, tripling the value of one of your highest-level spells is incredibly powerful even before accounting for the actions you save and all the effects that were written assuming that they would expire within roughly the order of magnitude of their duration line.

    In retrospect, it's probably not a coincidence that Persistent Spell's printings keep putting it alongside things like deities with epic spell slots and spelldancers and incantatrices, but I can't for the life of me imagine what they thought were reasonable things to persist. Aside from detect magic, obviously.

    Quote Originally Posted by bean illus View Post
    Ahhh, i see. By "cost substitute" I thought he meant night sticks.
    Being able to use nightsticks to DMM persist more things is a bit like being able to use a pearl of power, 1st level to cast more power word pains. The problem is that the effect exists at all, not the number of times you can use it!
    Last edited by sreservoir; 2020-09-24 at 08:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Persistent Spell, and fixed range?

    The intent of "fixed range" is spells like Detect Magic, Detect Evil that have 60' ranges, but really only affect the caster.
    Semper ludens.

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