What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

[Boci]

So, thought experiment, I am wondering if people who would not normally play a wizard if they could only have 15 intelligence at character creation, could they be enticed to accepting it for an feat if that were locked behind a race. To that end, I have made 6 new feats for race options that under the regular rules cannot have 16 intelligence at char generation.

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Drow

Insidious Denial
Prerequisite: Elf with the drow subtace
It is not enough to be good at magic, Lolth demands that you take your opponent's skill away and mock them.
Benefit: You increase your intelligence score by 1. Add Counter spell to your spellbook. You may cast Counterspell without expending a spellslot. When you sucessfully Counter a spell in this manner the target must back a constiution save with a DC equal to your spell save or be poisoned for 1 minute as they periodically cough up small, black spiders. Once you have used this ability, you cannot use it again until you finish a long rest, but you may still cast Counterspell using your spellslots.

Vault of the Underdark
Prerequisite: Elf with the drow subtace
Deep beneath the earth, vast libraries are stocked with the fruit from centuries of raiding. Your own spellbook has benefitted from studying these plundered book, and conversations with mages from the surface who were in no position to decline indulging your academic curiosity.
Benefit: You increase your intelligence score by 1. Add two 1st level and two 2nd level spells to your spell book. Whenever you gain a level, add 3 new spells to your spellbook instead of 2. Furthermore you treat any spellbook in your possession as your own for the purpose of the time and gold required to make copies of the spell within.

Orc

Trinkets of the God
Prerequisite: Orc
Many orcs are very religious, for they can count on very little belong their diety and their own kin. You have spent a long with the priests and shamen of your clan, and have learned to accept their gifts.
Benefit: You increase your intelligence score by 1. Additionlly an orc (and only an orc) capable of casting a divine spell may gift you a charm, usually an amulet or bracelet but it can be anything worn on the body. Before presenting it, they visualize a spell they can cast, imprinting it upon the trinket. The spell must be of a level equal to or lower than your intelligence modifer. For as long as the trinket remains in your possession you may prepare that spell as if it were in your spellbook. Once you recieve a charm you cannot recieve another one until a week has passed, and you may not have more than 2 charms on you at once. If you already have 2 charms, you must discard one before accepting another.

Spear of the Horde
Prerequisite: Orc
When the hoard marches you charge at the front, using your magic to break open the enemies.
Benefit: You increase your intelligence score by 1. Additionlly the first spell you cast in an encounter, if you moved closer to a hostile creature before casting it, becomes a spell of terror. For a spell of terror you may reroll a number of damage dice equal to your intelligence modifer, and any creature who takes damage from it in the round you cast must succeed on a wisdom saving throw (with a DC equal to your spell DC) or be frightened for 1 round. In addition, you areinfused with the energy of the spell and gain resistance to bludgeoning, piercing and slashing damage until the start of your next turn.

Dwarf

Runic Armour
Prerequisite: Dwarf, medium armour proficiency
Whilst arcane magic is not their speciality, those dwarves that do learn it often find an overlap with a more common pursuit of their kin.
Benefit: You increase your intelligence score by 1. You gain proficiency with heavy armour. Additionally you may spend an hour marking your set of armour with your personal rune. Whilst wearing an a set of metal armour marked so, when you fail a constiution save to maintain concentration, the spell does not immediatly end, but rather lasts until the end of your next turn.

Banisher
Prerequisite: Dwarf
Dwarves do not appreciated outsiders invading their home, doubly so if the outsider in question is not even from the material realm.
Benefit: You increase your intelligence score by 1. Additonally whenever you target a creature with a spell, or include one in the area of one of your spells, if that creature has the Magic Resistance trait, you may have them lose it for one minute. Finally, you gain advantage on saving throws against the magic of fiends and celestials.

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So, if normally you would much rather have 16 intelligence at char gen, would any of these feats be enough to have you make an exception? If so, which ones? If not, if there a tweak or change that could be made to the feat to make it qaulify? I'm interesting in what you think.

[RossN]

Honestly while they are flavourful those all sort of seem like cheating via boosting Intelligence up to 16 and we already have Feats that do that (Keen Mind, Linguist, Observant and Resilient in the PHB and Elven Accuracy in Xanathar's.) Also Vault of the Underdark seems overpowered compared with Magic Initiate or Drow High Magic.

[FabulousFizban]

Whatever, i played a 6int wizard named brick

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'm probably not the target audience, because a 15 INT is well within the playable range for me.

[Sigreid]

I've willingly played a wizard with a lower int, so it wouldn't take much.

My question is, what is the reason you would want to coax someone into playing a wizard with lower stats if they aren't into it?

[sithlordnergal]

...There's nothing you could do to convince me to play that.

[Boci]

Honestly while they are flavourful those all sort of seem like cheating via boosting Intelligence up to 16 and we already have Feats that do that (Keen Mind, Linguist, Observant and Resilient in the PHB and Elven Accuracy in Xanathar's.) Also Vault of the Underdark seems overpowered compared with Magic Initiate or Drow High Magic.

Quite possibly. Whilst there are feats that already give you +1 intelligence, there are some people who dislike playing a wizard without being able to hit 16 at char gen, so those existing feats didn't seem to be enough. I'm wondering if these will be.

I'm probably not the target audience, because a 15 INT is well within the playable range for me.

Whilst the primary audience the people who wouldn't normally do that, I am also interested in hearing from people like you who are fine with a 15 int wizard. Do any of the feats look interesting to you, or would you be unlikely to take them?

My question is, what is the reason you would want to coax someone into playing a wizard with lower stats if they aren't into it?

I'm interested in whether people who dislike a 15 int wizard are against it on principle, or if there is something I can offer them that would make then feel that whilst 16 at char gen would be better, this ability seem impactful, interesting or fun enough that they will accept 15.

[Edea]

...the ability to increase Intelligence past 20 (no limit), in a campaign that's guaranteed to hit 20th level.

Which is extremely unlikely, so...

[Arkhios]

The standard array has been 15,14,13,12,10,8 since forever (at least according to my personal experience). Back in 3rd edition (probably earlier too; I started during 3.0 transition to 3.5) 15 int was the most you could get with player's handbook races when using standard array (which is more than fair to be used as a guideline). NONE of them gave a bonus to intelligence, not even elf, and wizard was elf's favored class (which wasn't only flavor, but a mechanical advantage as well). and ability score modifiers were the same as they are now (for example 14-15 gave you a +2 modifier, etc.)

It's not a surprise why grognards often find the newer editions to be "made for babies". Before, you just had to manage with lower scores. And it was fine, even so.

15 is more than enough, and wouldn't take anything to convince me to play a wizard with 15 intelligence. Heck, I would consider even a 14 to be competetive.

[Hellpyre]

I feel like Spear of the Horde and Banisher are the only two that are reasonable as half-feats. The rest are very useful, enough that I'd say they contribute more interesting questions without the INT boost. (The counterspell one for the drow waffles a bit, but free counterspell plus poison is pretty solid. I might take that on a sorc to free up a spell known.)

[bid]

Horde, hoard is a treasure.

[Ashrym]

I don't need enticed. +2 vs +3 isn't that significant when it'll still be +5 later anyway. It's even hard to feel down the ASI when so many builds delay or lose one anyway.

What I look for is what the trade off is. Generally I am gaining something in the choice.

[Zhorn]

already started off my wizard that way without a feat or other bonus, opting to put my highest stat elsewhere for story reasons.
15's good.

[Joe the Rat]

I'm the type of player who would "eat" the +1 Int to throw runic armor on anyone even thinking about bring a dwarf spellcaster, because Heavy Armor prof and keeping your spells up after blowing concentration is about worth a feat as-is.

Spear of the Horde is fine, though the damage bump is meh. The general trend on caster feats has been to avoid damage bumps for other features, since damage is not the function of every spell. Maybe give it a BA move, a la the charger feat.

I'm not sure if I would shrug or tear my hair out if I was playing a non-drow wizard and someone else rolled in with an extra book spell per level and a universal spellbook passkey.

Out of curiosity, what do you have for Halfling Barbarians and Dwarf Rogues?

[OldTrees1]

Whilst the primary audience the people who wouldn't normally do that, I am also interested in hearing from people like you who are fine with a 15 int wizard. Do any of the feats look interesting to you, or would you be unlikely to take them?

I am fine starting with a 15 Int if the race is interesting. I don't think a feat changes that.


Insidious Denial is +1 Int, +1 spell prepared and +1 3rd level slot per day but limited to only counterspell.
I prefer At Will >> Short Rest >> Long Rest abilities, this is not a level's worth of features at 7+ level, and this only works if there are enemy casters.

Vault of the Underdark is a big increase in spells known. That is an at will / passive ability so I am biased in favor of it. It is definitely on the short list of feats for a Wizard.

Trinkets of the God is add 1 divine spell to my spells known. Limited to my Int modifier. I could get Revivify for example. Lots of Wizard character concepts could work based on that. Probably a first pick feat for some characters.

Spear of the Horde is 1/encounter and gives a nice rider effect to that first spell. I could easily see an Orc charging in with a Fireball. Probably a first pick feat for some other characters.

Runic Armour is also nice. A thematic boost to AC. A first pick for some characters.

Banisher on the other hand is only nice at very high level. At that point the +1 Int is not that useful. If I take it at 12th it might be worth it.

[Pex]

Optimizer me, there would have to be a half-feat I could take at 4th level that gives +1 Intelligence and an ability I really want. Alternatively DX or CO is also 15 to make both 16 at 4th level. Character race must be something I will have fun playing. This can include Variant Human to get a feat I really want. I also have to be in the right mood, which is a personal emotional thing. I lean more towards having at least one feat I really want, so Variant Human has the strongest lead to get the full feat I want and the half feat I'll have fun playing. Two feats is worth the price for me, accepting I have 15 IN 14 DX 14 CO.

[opaopajr]

Well, if you wanna renegotiate the quality of table snacks & drinks...

[Zhorn]

Well, if you wanna renegotiate the quality of table snacks & drinks...

Now we're talking.
Let's cover those true player priorities

[Segev]

I'm probably not the target audience, here. In 3.5, I would fight for the highest casting stat I could get, and in 5e, I will certainly push it as high as I can, but in 3.5, this could dictate a race (or at least strongly influence it), while in 5e, I'm more likely to let it slide due to the lessened importance of numeric supremacy.

I'm far more influenced in character inspiration by traits or by my "vision" of the character than by stat bonuses, though yes, if I don't have a build-concept I want to use a trait for, I would be pushed to a race that gave the "right" bonus for my build.

A 15 in Int is perfectly serviceable on most wizards in 5e. I'd go for the 16 from a high elf if I wanted to play an elf and didn't see something specific in Drow or Wood Elves I wanted, and if I really cared nothing about my race traits, I'd probably go gnome for the +2 to Int, but if I had a concept that cared about racial traits or about race as a concept hook, I wouldn't bat an eye at having no bonus at all to Int on a wizard (which, in elite array, would mean I'd probably put the 15 there, though maybe I'd go as low as the 14 if I really, really wanted a 16 in whatever the race gave a +1 to).

If I wanted to try out an armored single-class wizard, I'd have little problem playing a Mountain Dwarf despite no Int bonus from race. I'd be able to tank Strength and still have no penalty, and I could consider Constitution being on the lower end of my priorities because of the +2 bonus to it.

[Christew]

Definitely overtuned for any of my tables, but as a thought experiment I like it. Kudos to some interesting and flavorful feats. This actually makes me think that everyone gets a feat at level 1 + race based half ASI feats would have been a more compelling approach to diverse builds than the new character creation rules.

[Segev]

Definitely overtuned for any of my tables, but as a thought experiment I like it. Kudos to some interesting and flavorful feats. This actually makes me think that everyone gets a feat at level 1 + race based half ASI feats would have been a more compelling approach to diverse builds than the new character creation rules.

Just giving a feat or ASI at level 1 to everyone would be a better approach, though you'd have to think hard about what to do with variant humans, because 3/4 of the reason variant humans are preferred almost universally to base humans is that base humans feel underwhelming compared to literally any other race with their bigger stat mods and cool racial traits. You could just allow variant humans an ASI + feat or 2 feats, but that's probably too much. And a standard human + feat or ASI still feels like it's behind any other race + [feat or ASI]. At least to me.

I know I am not always agreed with on standard humans being meh enough that they're underwhelming. So perhaps standard humans with an ASI or feat would be just fine next to all other races getting an ASI or feat at level 1.

[Christew]

Just giving a feat or ASI at level 1 to everyone would be a better approach, though you'd have to think hard about what to do with variant humans, because 3/4 of the reason variant humans are preferred almost universally to base humans is that base humans feel underwhelming compared to literally any other race with their bigger stat mods and cool racial traits. You could just allow variant humans an ASI + feat or 2 feats, but that's probably too much. And a standard human + feat or ASI still feels like it's behind any other race + [feat or ASI]. At least to me.

I know I am not always agreed with on standard humans being meh enough that they're underwhelming. So perhaps standard humans with an ASI or feat would be just fine next to all other races getting an ASI or feat at level 1.

If everyone has an initial feat you could abandon Variant Human entirely and use race gated feats to adjust everything, including standard human.

Hmm, this has my wheels turning, but feels entirely off topic for this thread. May do a write up in the next few days.

[Unoriginal]

I don't need convincing to play a caster with 15 in their primats stat. On the other hand, I don't think I'd want to play a character who get either of those feats as a perk.

[LudicSavant]

So, thought experiment, I am wondering if people who would not normally play a wizard if they could only have 15 intelligence at character creation, could they be enticed to accepting it for an feat if that were locked behind a race.

If it's helpful, there are a couple of races I can think of that I'd consider playing as a Wizard that don't get an Int bonus. They are...

• Goblin
• Mark of Healing Halfling

...That's all that's leaping to mind. Well, at least for things I'd play for mechanical reasons anyways.

The first one, Goblin, is a 30ft move speed small race with a pseudo-Cunning Action at-will, Darkvision, bonuses to secondary and tertiary stats (Dex/Con), and a little damage booster. The big attraction is the pseudo-Cunning Action, which can fundamentally change your gameplay and let you do stuff like Cast -> Hide each round.

The second one, Mark of Healing Halfling, basically opens you up to being a strong healer. Basically it gives you a bunch of key spells known that open up a whole new playstyle for the Wizard.

I suspect some people might say "Mountain Dwarf" but I consider Githyanki, Hobgoblin, and even VHuman to basically do the Mountain Dwarf Wizard's trick better. (Githyanki gets Medium Armor but an Int bonus. Hobgoblin has an ideal statline and strong features and can jump into Moderately Armored at 4. VHuman can end up with +2 Dex / +1 Int / +1 Con and Medium Armor + Shield by level 4, to a Mountain Dwarf's +2 Str / +2 Con / +2 Int / Medium Armor and no Shield by level 4).

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Edit:
As a semi-related note: though this doesn't apply specifically to Wizards (because this race already has an Int bonus) but on my list of "races that I might take even if they have the wrong stats for the class" there's also "Yuan-Ti."

[Mr Adventurer]

I don't understand, if I start with Int 15 and take one of these feats for free then I have Int 16? That's well within normal parameters?

Edit: oh, the feat isn't free, but becomes available at 4th level like normal? Yeah, I would do this.

Edit 2: be worth considering multiclasses too. Orc EK/War Mage?

[LudicSavant]

I don't understand, if I start with Int 15 and take one of these feats for free then I have Int 16? That's well within normal parameters?

I think the difference is that you'd get to 16 at level 4, whereas a character who started with 16 could bump to 18 at level 4. Is that correct, Boci?

[Anonymouswizard]

All I'd need to convince me to play an 8 INT Wizard or Artificer is a story reason and the chance to pick out non stat-reliant spells. Or a lifepath system that would give me a story and interesting gear and spells related to that story.

[Sindal]

Of the options granted? None

I'll play a 15 int wizard ,if that is the hand I have been dealt in this example, without much complaint.

If given the choice between this and a wizard with superior ASI instead, i'd pick stats so I can focus on being a wizard.

[Sigreid]

I'm interested in whether people who dislike a 15 int wizard are against it on principle, or if there is something I can offer them that would make then feel that whilst 16 at char gen would be better, this ability seem impactful, interesting or fun enough that they will accept 15.

Fair enough. I'll bow out as I'm not someone who can contribute to that question.

[Valmark]

You couldn't pay me enough to play a character with odd scores, unless I HAVE TO and am planning on evening out as soon as possible.

If I can't start with 16 because I'm not playing a +1/+2 int race then you bet I'm getting a 14, homewever if the question is really "Would you play a 15 or less int wizard" then yeah. I'm usually picking my race and my class without connections between them, so it happens. That said, half-elves and tieflings have always been my go-to race for that +2 charisma and both of them have "pick-whatever" +1s (well, tiefling has a subrace for each stat) so I never need to start with less then 16 in my primary score unless I want a specific race for once.

No feat is going to change this, regardless of the benefits offered. I'd rather start with 14 and get +2 int then start with 15 and get a half-feat.