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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    You couldn't pay me enough to play a character with odd scores, unless I HAVE TO and am planning on evening out as soon as possible.

    If I can't start with 16 because I'm not playing a +1/+2 int race then you bet I'm getting a 14, homewever if the question is really "Would you play a 15 or less int wizard" then yeah. I'm usually picking my race and my class without connections between them, so it happens. That said, half-elves and tieflings have always been my go-to race for that +2 charisma and both of them have "pick-whatever" +1s (well, tiefling has a subrace for each stat) so I never need to start with less then 16 in my primary score unless I want a specific race for once.

    No feat is going to change this, regardless of the benefits offered. I'd rather start with 14 and get +2 int then start with 15 and get a half-feat.
    Actually that's a good point. I probably wouldn't play a 15 intelligence Wizard unless I rolled my scores and they fell that way. If it was point buy or standard array build the 15 would probably go elsewhere and I'd stick a 14 in Intelligence instead.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    For myself I would play less than 16 starting int as a wizard only if my character concept required it.

    For example, if I am intentionally playing a wizard who doesn't rely on int then I would probably just dump it. If I am playing a wizard who the concept is a wizard in heavy armor, then maybe although I might just multiclass cleric to get the armor instead.

    If I am planning to play a wizard that relies on int and doesn't need to fulfill very specific requirements for the concept then none of those feats are going to convince me to play a race that doesn't get my int to 16. Starting with 15 means level 12 before maxing the stat and essentially being 4 levels behind on stat the entire time before that. Most games I play don't even get to level 12 which means never catching up.

    I personally prefer to start with 17 in my main stat so I can take a related half feat for flavor at level 4 without falling behind.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by sithlordnergal View Post
    ...There's nothing you could do to convince me to play that.
    Me either (the penalty on 'spells prepared' is enough to annoy the dickens out of me).

    For the OP:
    So, if normally you would much rather have 16 intelligence at char gen, would any of these feats be enough to have you make an exception?
    None of them, for two reasons. The first is the limitation on spells prepared.

    2. I realize you put a lot of thought into this, but my lack of interest in racially based feats only grows with time. I think that XGtE made a mistake by going there. I am "egalitarian" when it comes to feats: I want all feats open to all PC races.

    FWIW: It is my opinion that that Skilled and Prodigy ought to be merged into a single feat (boost some skills and offer one expertise at the cost of a feat) with racial restrictions removed.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-09-21 at 09:00 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    Okay, some interesting answers. Some people don't care for them, others seem interesting in trying them, no one so far has explicitly said this would be enough to make the difference for them.

    Banisher seems to stand out as the weakest, there appears to be some disagreement on Insidious Denial and Spear of the Horde, they might be weaker too and certainly more specialized, and perhaps ID is better for a sorceror, so they don't have to burn a spell known on Counterspell. I did consider making it once per short rest insteadof long, but that felt too powerful.

    It seems to be agreed that Runic Armour and especially Vault of the Underdark are the most powerful options, to the point that VotU may even be good enough to make another wizard in the group feel bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    Trinkets of the God is add 1 divine spell to my spells known. Limited to my Int modifier. I could get Revivify for example. Lots of Wizard character concepts could work based on that. Probably a first pick feat for some characters.
    2 divine spells, you can have up to 2 charms on you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    Edit 2: be worth considering multiclasses too. Orc EK/War Mage?
    Yeah, multiclassing would be allowed with these feats, so an Eldritch Knight / War Mage could work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    I don't need convincing to play a caster with 15 in their primats stat. On the other hand, I don't think I'd want to play a character who get either of those feats as a perk.
    The feats wouldn't be free, you'd still have to take them instead of a stat increase at level 4. Just checking since there appeared to be some misunderstanding about that in my post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Optimizer me, there would have to be a half-feat I could take at 4th level that gives +1 Intelligence and an ability I really want.
    And do any of these feats tick that box?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    For the OP: None of them, for two reasons. The first is the limitation on spells prepared.

    2. I realize you put a lot of thought into this, but my lack of interest in racially based feats only grows with time. I think that XGtE made a mistake by going there. I am "egalitarian" when it comes to feats: I want all feats open to all PC races.
    No problem, you don't have to like them just because I spent time on them, and your answer for why not is useful for me understanding player motivation. I can certainly understand the dislike for race specific feats.
    Last edited by Boci; 2020-09-21 at 01:10 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post


    And do any of these feats tick that box?

    Maybe Runic Armor because I have a bias about AC and Concentration.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by FabulousFizban View Post
    Whatever, i played a 6int wizard named brick

    Did they survive to level 13 to learn to conjure a
    Brick House?

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Banisher seems to stand out as the weakest, there appears to be some disagreement on Insidious Denial and Spear of the Horde, they might be weaker too and certainly more specialized
    Both of these feats are extremely strong - especially Spear of the Horde.

    Insidious Denial gives an Level 3 extra spell prepared which is one of the most useful in the game, and an extra slot. Compare to any of the existing "get more spells" feats - it beats the pants off of Magic Initiate, Aberrant Dragonmark. The UA feats (Fey Touched / Shadow Touched) are close.

    Spear of the horde is a huge game changer. It turns any AOE damage spell to an *uber* opener, with boosted damage, damage resistance, and a concentration-free one turn fear. Put this on an Evoker and you don't even need to win initiative. Just open with Shatter or Fireball or even Thunderwave; unless you get very unlucky with fear saves, the targets are immune, or the enemies are coming in waves, it's basically a battle-winning opener for free (in that an evoker will use an AOE blast in most significant fights anyway, and this makes it vastly better).

    As written, the fear even works every round for duration efforts (though that may not be intended) - say hello to flaming sphere, heat metal. Heck put it on a priest for Spirit Guardians - who cares about the Int bonus when you are walking zone of damage, slow, and fear. But to be clear, it's broken even on single round effects.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    And do any of these feats tick that box?
    If the point is a good half-feat for a caster, you already have solutions in the UA feats. For Orcs you can do Shadow-Touched; for Drow, Shadow-Touched or Fey-Touched.

    Use them as a template and make something similarly thematic for Dwarves (e.g. Earth-Touched: +1 Caster stat; Spike Growth and your choice of L1 transmutation or abjuration spells, and a free slot to cast each).

    You don't need to make stuff as complicated and powerful as most of these feats.

    Alternately, you can just use the pending rules in Tasha's to make more races viable.
    Last edited by AvalancheSpring; 2020-09-21 at 04:16 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Maybe Runic Armor because I have a bias about AC and Concentration.
    Seems to be a strong one, several others have mentioned it. There's a lot packed into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvalancheSpring View Post
    Both of these feats are extremely strong - especially Spear of the Horde.

    Insidious Denial gives an Level 3 extra spell prepared which is one of the most useful in the game, and an extra slot. Compare to any of the existing "get more spells" feats - it beats the pants off of Magic Initiate, Aberrant Dragonmark. The UA feats (Fey Touched / Shadow Touched) are close.
    I'm going off what others said. OldTrees1 didn't seem too impressed with Insidious Denial (though they siad they dislike long rest abilities), and Hellpyre mentioned Spear of the Horde being one of the weaker options.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvalancheSpring View Post
    As written, the fear even works every round for duration efforts (though that may not be intended) - say hello to flaming sphere, heat metal. Heck put it on a priest for Spirit Guardians - who cares about the Int bonus when you are walking zone of damage, slow, and fear. But to be clear, it's broken even on single round effects.
    Good catch for multi round spells, I fixed that. As for it still being broken I'm not sure. No one else has said any where broken. I'm not sure how fear for 1 round means winning the encounter.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvalancheSpring View Post
    If the point is a good half-feat for a caster, you already have solutions in the UA feats. For Orcs you can do Shadow-Touched; for Drow, Shadow-Touched or Fey-Touched.
    But those weren't enough to convince some people to play a wizard without a racial intelligence bonus. For some these feats still aren't enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvalancheSpring View Post
    Alternately, you can just use the pending rules in Tasha's to make more races viable.
    Probaby won't be using those rules. That's one of the reasons I made these.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    I'm probably not the target audience, because a 15 INT is well within the playable range for me.
    My thoughts as well. I play characters with a 15 attack stat frequently. Itís fine.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Imp

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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe the Rat View Post
    I'm the type of player who would "eat" the +1 Int to throw runic armor on anyone even thinking about bring a dwarf spellcaster, because Heavy Armor prof and keeping your spells up after blowing concentration is about worth a feat as-is.
    This is something I've been investigating, though in PHB a Mountain Dwarf gives light and medium proficiency, not heavy. Still, breastplate or half plate will do the trick unless you're willing to spend on the Heavy Armor feat, which also gives +1 STR.

    The trick here is to be casting spells that don't rely so much on DC. Go for buffs and utility rather than damage, and when you do take a damage spell get one of the "to hit" variety. Abjuration spells especially, and the Abjurer school seems to lean into this sort of wizard.

    Which makes sense when you think about dwarves. A whole bunch of martial characters, a few clerics, and the one wizard there to add buffs and counterspell the enemy.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    I'm going off what others said. OldTrees1 didn't seem too impressed with Insidious Denial (though they said they dislike long rest abilities), and Hellpyre mentioned Spear of the Horde being one of the weaker options.
    To elaborate
    1 extra 3rd level slot at 4th level? Even if it is limited to one useful but very niche spell? A solid choice.
    1 extra 3rd level slot at 8th level? That is only used if you encounter a spellcaster? Eh, starting to sound like +1 spell known and not +1 spell slot.
    1 extra 3rd level slot at 12th level that can only cast a niche spell, and now usually does so at a 50%+ failure rate?. Yeah, now it sounds like +1 spell known and not like +1 spell slot.
    This feat at 16th level? Oh, it is +1 spell known.

    So even if you like long rest abilities, Insidious Denial quickly drops off in utility.

    And this is from someone that is already willing to have a 15 Int Wizard, so my standard for these feats is low. But this is from someone that does not like long rest abilities, so I am biased against long rest ability feats. So take this advice with the correctly measured amount of salt.

    You might notice that Hellpyre considered it in part because Sorcerers get too few spells known.

    ------

    I think I agree with Hellpyre that Spear of the Horde feat fits as a half feat. I do think it is a very solid half feat, but I think it deserves to keep the +1 Int. I just imagine an Orc charging the enemy, casting a fireball on themselves (probably with fire resistance) and roaring. Casting it on yourself is not required, it just sounds flavorful and reminds me of some AoEs that radiated out from the caster.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2020-09-22 at 07:23 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    Does starting as wizard with the plan to mix blade singer and arcane trickster later count?

    15 int seems pretty likely with point buy and non-tasha's race choices; elven accuracy for +1 int later (at wizard 4) sounds good; and throw the rest of ASIs into dex until 20 (rogue 8). The next ASI at rogue 10 could be a feat, or 2 more int, depending, but with that build you could largely avoid spell attack rolls if you wanted to.

    No extra convincing required.

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    I'm playing one that started that way right now, a halfling divination wizard.

    Charm person (1st) and suggestion (2nd) are really powerful when you know (portent) they are going to fail. This does require getting one low roll out of two for the portent, but it's been very useful to get around the low spell DC of 12 because INT+2.

    "I suggest you move as fast as you can way from here." autofailed means the target is going to try and run for 8 hours. When the spell ends, if they are not dead from exhaustion, they are in no shape to return in the next 8 hours.

    Not saying that this is a failsafe thing (charm resistance/immunity), but its much more powerful than I expected.

    He's currently level 8 and becoming more and more able to change the course of a fight than a fireball would.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    To elaborate
    1 extra 3rd level slot at 4th level? Even if it is limited to one useful but very niche spell? A solid choice.
    1 extra 3rd level slot at 8th level? That is only used if you encounter a spellcaster? Eh, starting to sound like +1 spell known and not +1 spell slot.
    1 extra 3rd level slot at 12th level that can only cast a niche spell, and now usually does so at a 50%+ failure rate?. Yeah, now it sounds like +1 spell known and not like +1 spell slot.
    This feat at 16th level? Oh, it is +1 spell known.

    So even if you like long rest abilities, Insidious Denial quickly drops off in utility.
    That's a fair analysis I feel. I take it you don't value the poison for 1 minute too much? Its not the best on casters, but may matter for something. Gishes would especially suffer from that condition and be less likely to be casting a 4+ level spell, but I don't know how many monsters are printed as gishes, so likely DM dependant certainly.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    You might notice that Hellpyre considered it in part because Sorcerers get too few spells known.
    True. I got the impression they would be willing to take it on a drow wizard, but they did mention sorceror specifically. That largely works out to be the same, you'll be one stat increase behind a "regular" sorceror, only this time it will be from level 4-12 instead of level 1-12.

    Runic Armour was also mentioned as "worth it without the stat increase". So presumably on clerics, or sorcerors (though for sorcerors you'll be two ASIs behind).

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    I think I agree with Hellpyre that Spear of the Horde feat fits as a half feat. I do think it is a very solid half feat, but I think it deserves to keep the +1 Int. I just imagine an Orc charging the enemy, casting a fireball on themselves (probably with fire resistance) and roaring. Casting it on yourself is not required, it just sounds flavorful and reminds me of some AoEs that radiated out from the caster.
    I like the feel of that Spear. I wanted it to require the use of Aggresive, but I couldn't figure out how to word it so without making it awkward, so I'm okay with simply require any amount of movement towards a hostile creature beforehand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Kurageous View Post
    He's currently level 8 and becoming more and more able to change the course of a fight than a fireball would.
    Yeah, though that has little to do with him being a halfling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Wonderful View Post
    This is something I've been investigating, though in PHB a Mountain Dwarf gives light and medium proficiency, not heavy. Still, breastplate or half plate will do the trick unless you're willing to spend on the Heavy Armor feat, which also gives +1 STR.
    Joe the Rat was talking about Runic Armour, which does give heavy armour proficiency, though yes if you don't mind being a little weaker, (or are using Tasha'a varient rules), a straight up PHB dwarvf can make a cool army caster if you like that kind of thing. As I said, Runic Armour was me trying to sweeten the deal for players who currently didn't feel the concept was supported enough with the existing options (-Tasha's varient rules).
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    That's a fair analysis I feel. I take it you don't value the poison for 1 minute too much? Its not the best on casters, but may matter for something. Gishes would especially suffer from that condition and be less likely to be casting a 4+ level spell, but I don't know how many monsters are printed as gishes, so likely DM dependant certainly.
    The poison for 1 minute only happens, the first time, when I encounter a caster, that casts a spell, that I spend a reaction to counter, and succeed on countering the spell. All to apply poison (a mostly skill/martial debuff) to the caster.

    All those qualifiers get in the way. So regardless of how I feel about poison, it is cut to ribbons after adjusting for the qualifiers. I would be banking on facing 1+ gish per day just to get a chance at a chance for the poison to be relevant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    True. I got the impression they would be willing to take it on a drow wizard, but they did mention sorceror specifically. That largely works out to be the same, you'll be one stat increase behind a "regular" sorceror, only this time it will be from level 4-12 instead of level 1-12.
    I did not get that impression, nor anything contradicting that impression. For me, I think Wizards get sufficient spells known that they can be judicious over whether they want a +1 spell known.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Runic Armour was also mentioned as "worth it without the stat increase". So presumably on clerics, or sorcerors (though for sorcerors you'll be two ASIs behind).
    Yeah I could see it as such, maybe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    I like the feel of that Spear. I wanted it to require the use of Aggresive, but I couldn't figure out how to word it so without making it awkward, so I'm okay with simply require any amount of movement towards a hostile creature beforehand.
    The movement is very flexible for characterization. That was a better design.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2020-09-23 at 07:50 PM.

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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by sithlordnergal View Post
    ...There's nothing you could do to convince me to play that.
    Ditto (except maybe cash)

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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    The poison for 1 minute only happens, the first time, when I encounter a caster, that casts a spell, that I spend a reaction to counter, and succeed on countering the spell. All to apply poison (a mostly skill/martial debuff) to the caster.

    All those qualifiers get in the way. So regardless of how I feel about poison, it is cut to ribbons after adjusting for the qualifiers. I would be banking on facing 1+ gish per day just to get a chance at a chance for the poison to be relevant.
    So are you saying Insidious Denial is weak compared to the other feats in the OP, or weak in general? If you have a drow wizard who isn't taking Vault of the Underdark for whatever reason, is Insidual Denial a decent choice, or do you think the wizard would best avoid, assuming drow is a given. What should they take instead? Shadow-touched? Put 14 in intelligence and go with an ASI at level 4?
    Last edited by Boci; 2020-09-25 at 06:46 PM.
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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    For what it's worth, I'll address what makes me feel Spear isn't hugely powerful:

    Spear of the Horde
    Prerequisite: Orc
    When the hoard marches you charge at the front, using your magic to break open the enemies.
    Benefit: You increase your intelligence score by 1. Additionlly the first spell you cast in an encounter, if you moved closer to a hostile creature before casting it, becomes a spell of terror. For a spell of terror you may reroll a number of damage dice equal to your intelligence modifer, and any creature who takes damage from it in the round you cast must succeed on a wisdom saving throw (with a DC equal to your spell DC) or be frightened for 1 round. In addition, you are infused with the energy of the spell and gain resistance to bludgeoning, piercing and slashing damage until the start of your next turn.
    It has a lot of qualifications and requirements. If you don't cast a blasting spell at the start of each encounter, it does very little. It can still give you basic damage resistance, but only if you moved into combat. Neither of those are ideal for most wizards. Don't get me wrong, an evoker would love it, but if you open with a buff or control spell, you waste the feat for that encounter. Even if you are an evoker, basically getting a 1 sorcery point metamagic isn't huge, so you are looking at the fear effect. Which lasts a single round, and requires them to fail a save (possibly a second fail in a row, if you aren't using a save-for-half evocation). Applying disadvantage for a turn is good, but it isn't good enough to be a feat on its own. Especially for a Wizard. As a half-feat it is good, but if it delayed your attribute progression it wouldn't be worth it.
    All advice given with the caveat that you know your group better than I do. If that wasn't true, you'd be getting advice face-to-face. So I generalize.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?

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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    I assumed when I read the thread title that you were proposing that the Wizard be locked to 15 intelligence their entire career. I'd be fine with that under the right roleplay circumstances.

    But instead, I find it's 15 at the start, and actually 16 when you count a +1 Int feat.

    Which to me, is a perfectly normal and acceptable starting value for any primary attribute.

    So, honestly, not sure what the point of this question is?

    Are there really folks out there that wouldn't consider playing a Wizard with a starting Intelligence below 17?

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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakmala View Post
    I assumed when I read the thread title that you were proposing that the Wizard be locked to 15 intelligence their entire career. I'd be fine with that under the right roleplay circumstances.

    But instead, I find it's 15 at the start, and actually 16 when you count a +1 Int feat.

    Which to me, is a perfectly normal and acceptable starting value for any primary attribute.

    So, honestly, not sure what the point of this question is?

    Are there really folks out there that wouldn't consider playing a Wizard with a starting Intelligence below 17?
    The OP has made it clearer in follow-up posts that the proposal is for feats available in place of ASIs normally, not at chargen, but only available with <15 INT at level 1.
    All advice given with the caveat that you know your group better than I do. If that wasn't true, you'd be getting advice face-to-face. So I generalize.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?

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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    So are you saying Insidious Denial is weak compared to the other feats in the OP, or weak in general? If you have a drow wizard who isn't taking Vault of the Underdark for whatever reason, is Insidual Denial a decent choice, or do you think the wizard would best avoid, assuming drow is a given. What should they take instead? Shadow-touched? Put 14 in intelligence and go with an ASI at level 4?
    All of my comparisons are to the general value of an ASI/Feat slot (based on the opportunity cost of losing 1 level's worth of features). So my standard is a bit lower than the standard you intended (because I would already be willing to have a 15 Int Wizard so I don't need the feat to be above par).

    So for a Drow Wizard I would be more likely to take +2 Int, +1 Int/+1 Other, or another feat I was interested in rather than Insidious Denial (Resilient Con for example). For example: 15 Int/ 14 Con -> +1Int/+1Con -> Resilient Con -> +2 Int.



    Oh and Hellpyre does raise a good point about the limitations of Spear of the Horde (thanks Hellpyre). I was definitely thinking about it in the context of a Wizard that started off taking a step forward (maybe even just 5ft for that qualifier) and casting Fireball as their initial opener (addressing the other 2 qualifiers). And I might have overrated the effect of Frightened. It might split the enemy by making only some able to advance but I had misremembered Frightened 5E as Frightened 3E.

    That would downgrade it from a "first pick for some characters" to a "flavor pick for some characters". I might have an Orc Evoker take it as their 8th or 12th ASI. So it is subpar but still acceptable, that means it could definitely be buffed without becoming overpowered. (Honestly just adding the move away clause for that 1rd would be nice.)



    Part of the difference in these evaluations is 1) the PC is in control of fulfilling the qualifiers for Spear of the Horde and 2) it is 1/encounter. They can fulfill it every combat. Insidious Denial on the other hand requires the DM to fulfill the qualifiers and only works once per day. What if the 1/day poison worked on any reaction spell? Shield -> Poison attacker? Then the feat gives you a niche reaction and gives you a 1/day reward for using a reaction.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2020-09-26 at 09:40 AM.

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellpyre View Post
    The OP has made it clearer in follow-up posts that the proposal is for feats available in place of ASIs normally, not at chargen, but only available with <15 INT at level 1.
    Honestly, it is an interesting design space: Prerequisite -- [STAT] <X at Y Lvl. You could even play with Prereq -- [STAT] <X.

    It is a counter-intuitive space, granted, as we think higher better always & forever (more should be rewarded with MOAR!). But as a design space it IS interesting. Could make for some intriguing setting foundation by editing the Feats list and supplanting some for these "Joe Average Blessings."
    Last edited by opaopajr; 2020-09-26 at 09:41 AM.

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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    1) the PC is in control of fulfilling the qualifiers for Spear of the Horde and 2) it does not run out. They can fulfill it every combat. Insidious Denial on the other hand requires the DM to fulfill the qualifiers and only works once per day. What if the 1/day poison worked on any reaction spell? Shield -> Poison attacker? Then the feat gives you a niche reaction and gives you a 1/day reward for using a reaction.
    I think the only real problem there is an issue of how to word it. Do you separate it off into something like "Additionally, once per day, when you cast a spell as a reaction, you may cause the creature to make a Constitution save (save DC equals your Spell Save DC). On a failure that creature is poisoned for 1 minute as they occasionally cough up black spiders."? It might run into some odd reactions with War Caster and OAs then, but it's probably a solid upgrade that doesn't break the feat (even if it messes with the thematics some). But I still like that the feat saves you both a spell known and a spell prepared (since you should generally want Counterspell available to cast just in case every day, and the feat explicitly allows you to cast Counterspell with it). Especially since if you go higher up the levels of optimization, where not starting with a +3 to INT becomes less and less appealing, spellcasters trend towards being more and more dangerous even as non-casters trend towards being less dangerous for the most part.

    The other way I'd say to go about it is to lean into the niche harder. Replace "in this way" with "with this feat" and you add the rider onto all your counterspells throughout the day. Still requires enemy casters to be useful, but it is always useful when you do fight them.
    All advice given with the caveat that you know your group better than I do. If that wasn't true, you'd be getting advice face-to-face. So I generalize.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?

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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    Spear of the Horde is both strong and cool. I'd use it. Runic Armor seems pretty strong, but it's just more AC I'd already feel like an armored mage in half-plate it isn't altering how a dwarf wizard plays.

    I think the reason you see so few low stat wizards in 5e is that cantrips are such solid filler actions. You could get a high strength or sex and use the attack action but then it seems like you would want to be a Eldritch Knight instead.

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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hand_of_Vecna View Post
    You could get a high strength or sex and use the attack action but then it seems like you would want to be a Eldritch Knight instead.
    Goodness, would be Charisma or misspelled Dex?
    Last edited by Hellpyre; 2020-09-26 at 02:09 PM.

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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellpyre View Post
    Goodness, would be Charisma or misspelled Dex?
    No, clearly that is high Dex, Con, Wis, & Cha.
    Yeah it is probably Dex. Similar typo to Eex, Fex, & Cex.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2020-09-26 at 08:31 PM.

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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellpyre View Post
    I think the only real problem there is an issue of how to word it. Do you separate it off into something like "Additionally, once per day, when you cast a spell as a reaction, you may cause the creature to make a Constitution save (save DC equals your Spell Save DC). On a failure that creature is poisoned for 1 minute as they occasionally cough up black spiders."? It might run into some odd reactions with War Caster and OAs then, but it's probably a solid upgrade that doesn't break the feat (even if it messes with the thematics some). But I still like that the feat saves you both a spell known and a spell prepared (since you should generally want Counterspell available to cast just in case every day, and the feat explicitly allows you to cast Counterspell with it). Especially since if you go higher up the levels of optimization, where not starting with a +3 to INT becomes less and less appealing, spellcasters trend towards being more and more dangerous even as non-casters trend towards being less dangerous for the most part.

    The other way I'd say to go about it is to lean into the niche harder. Replace "in this way" with "with this feat" and you add the rider onto all your counterspells throughout the day. Still requires enemy casters to be useful, but it is always useful when you do fight them.
    Yeah, I do wonder how poisoning someone because your shield spell caused their attack to miss you works. Its magic, so anything can work at a pinch, but its not elegent as poisoning someone ebcause you successfully countered their spell.

    Still, ideas to improve:
    Allow them to cast counterspell without preparing it, always poisoning them if successful. As noted, poisoning usually isn't the best condition to inflict on casters, but it can still have its uses
    Expand it to include more spells like shield, possibly all reaction spells

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    That would downgrade it from a "first pick for some characters" to a "flavor pick for some characters". I might have an Orc Evoker take it as their 8th or 12th ASI. So it is subpar but still acceptable, that means it could definitely be buffed without becoming overpowered. (Honestly just adding the move away clause for that 1rd would be nice.)
    That could work, modify it off command, having the text read "must succeed on a wisdom saving throw (with a DC equal to your spell DC) or be struck with fear, spending its next turn moving away from you by the fastest available means. Creatures immune to the frightened condition are unaffected by this (but still take damage)". And yes, they could certainly qualify for the feet by moving 5ft forwards. They have moved closer to a hostile creature.

    Quote Originally Posted by opaopajr View Post
    Honestly, it is an interesting design space: Prerequisite -- [STAT] <X at Y Lvl. You could even play with Prereq -- [STAT] <X.

    It is a counter-intuitive space, granted, as we think higher better always & forever (more should be rewarded with MOAR!). But as a design space it IS interesting. Could make for some intriguing setting foundation by editing the Feats list and supplanting some for these "Joe Average Blessings."
    Whilst it could work, cutting the racial requirements does lose a lot of flavour. Spear of the Horde is an orc feat, drawing on traditional representations of the race in the game. Removing that and making it require intelligence 15, what would the name be? Opening Salvo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellpyre View Post
    Goodness, would be Charisma or misspelled Dex?
    The rouge is a primarily sex based class in D&D...
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    I would play a 14 int wizard without any of those feats, a goblin conjurer can easily remain competitive with a sub par int.

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    Default Re: What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellpyre View Post
    Goodness, would be Charisma or misspelled Dex?
    My default Android input method has a habit of autocorrecting "Dex" to "Sex", probably because "Dex" isn't a word and "D" is near "S" on the keyboard.
    Awesome avatar by Linklele. Thank you!

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