OOTS #1215 - The Discussion Thread

[Riftwolf]

Did anyone else have a flashback to a line by Korg in Thor Ragnarok while reading this panel?

The Hammer pulled him off the ledge...

I thought you were going to say 'better watch out for those Clerics, man, they are hard to perish'

[Shining Wrath]

You guys have convinced me. I misread 1189 as a betrayal - poison and tossed off a cliff. But yeah, they are being carried, by things big enough to manage Lien with one hand and her spear with the other, and both of O-chul's legs in one hand and his sword in the other.

Unless it's an invisible trio / quartet, and only one is speaking.

Or they have multiple hands.

Nonetheless, the Invisible Entities have flight, Greater Invisibility, and considerable strength.

[Edreyn]

You guys have convinced me. I misread 1189 as a betrayal - poison and tossed off a cliff. But yeah, they are being carried, by things big enough to manage Lien with one hand and her spear with the other, and both of O-chul's legs in one hand and his sword in the other.

Unless it's an invisible trio / quartet, and only one is speaking.

Or they have multiple hands.

Nonetheless, the Invisible Entities have flight, Greater Invisibility, and considerable strength.

Since I saw this page for the first time, I keep wondering if they are related to MITD.

[Athas]

Haven't read all the replies sorry, so this may be mentioned. I think we were supposed to think that they could fly with the hammer of Loki Sucks, like marvel films. So seeing them plummet was another joke that I for one found amusing. (even if it wasn't deliberate)

Great comic as always.

[Fyraltari]

I keep forgetting how durable these people are. Of course « just jump off the cliff » is a viable exit strategy!

Also props to Durkon for being the first one to lower Xykon’s HP this time around!

Also it's take cheap shots at Redcloak day, poor dude can't catch a break!

And he deserves every. Single. One. Of. Them.

You know, if this was a game I was in and not a comic, I think I'd have ditched this table way before Durkon even blew the element of surprise, because the scales are so utterly imbalanced in favor to Team Evil I'm not sure if I'd have been arsed enough to even try. Xykon is resistant or immune to almost everything that isn't Durkon's hammer or Roy's sword and he has multiple competent allies that are also likely stronger than any given member of the Order. At this point I think the only valid method of taking him out would be shoving him through a Gate again.

Next you are going to tell me you wouldn’t put 30 X-Wings against a pace station with the firepower of 100 destroyers.

My gut tells me that the Spellsplinter Maneuver will work on Xykon, at least once.

Narratively, it feels right that Roy will get a chance to use it against Xykon after almost 800 pages since their last rematch. Given all the focus we've had on Roy, the Greenhilt Sword, the Weapon of Legacy, and learning the Spellsplinter from Horace to fulfill the Blood Oath, it would feel pretty weird for Xykon to fully No-Sell it.

Of course, I don't expect Xykon to be immediately thrashed by it, and I'm sure he'll have some tricks up his sleeve to keep the fight going. But it'll almost certainly work against him at least once, at a key moment.

Superb dispelling!
No.

Sometimes Xykon is a total bro, no questions asked about why they're there, just what damage types haven't been tried yet.

Xykon’s only a bro when hurting people makes you one.

I'll take that bet.
Because yeah, Xykon's smarter than he likes to let on.
But if he knew what the Plan really was he would absolutely not be helping. If he already knew what the ritual did he wouldn't have asked Tsukiko to figure it out - that only tells us that he's suspicious. We know he doesn't trust Redcloak, but if he knew that this ritual he's been trying to perform for ~30 years, the ritual he

Spoiler: SOD

Show

died for

, has absolutely nothing to do with his goals, Redcloak would be either dead or wishing he was.

Yup.

I have only one criticism of the art in OOTS - and that's Xykon's jaw when he opens his mouth.

It's the way his lower jaw is connected with his upper jaw at the back teeth, with those back teeth remaining touching together. But the human jaw is hinged further back than that. When you open your mouth, your back teeth don't remain together. It's actually physically impossible, no matter how you try (unless you dislocate your jaw) (please don't try that).

So when Xykon talks, it gives me this weird impression like he's struggling to unclench his teeth which are wired together - or perhaps that he has only one side of his jaw open (which you also shouldn't be able to do, unless you have TMJ symptoms; talk to your doctor).

It happened after the art upgrade, and I think it's because of the way Xykon has always been drawn. If you look at Xykon pre-upgrade, his bottom jaw just sort of floats in mid-air when he opens his mouth. With an art upgrade, that might been judged a bit too cartoonish. But on the other hand, Xykon has never been drawn with the back part of the mandible connecting his upper and lower jaw - and maybe adding one changed his look too drastically. This could be a compromise.

I don't know how others feel about it. Myself, I can't help but notice it when Xykon is on the page, because I keep thinking he's about to go in for desperately-needed maxillofacial surgery - and it's hard to view him as threatening that way.

I wouldn't mind if it went back to the old style of just having his jaw float in midair. I think that would still fit with the art style.

That’s not his back teeth, that’s his higher spine.

Bilbo was Tolkien’s Mary Sue.

Fat old dude who got to hang out with elves and eat good food and translate old books, and then he goes off to an afterlife where he can keep doing that forever?

And by forever you mean a handful of years before he dies of a old age and goes to his actual designated afterlife? The Undying Lands are called that because the people who livee there are undying, not because going there makes you.
[QUOTE=pendell;24722992]You've got one contender to the throne who's a butcher[quote]
I’m guessing Joffrey?

another who sacrifices children in a fire

Never happens in the book.

another who is raising dragons in order to "save" the kingdom by setting everyone in it on fire

I’m guessing Daenerys but that doesn’t match anything she does in the books either.

It's not a terrible show or book set but it isn't a cheerful one. GRR Martin has no qualms about killing a beloved character in a brutal and short way, since that's the way real war is.

I’d describe the books as bittersweet there are very low lows (and we’re not nearly done) but they make the highs just that higher.

They depict a harsh world in a bad place, that’s for sure, but there are plenty of good people doing what’s right.

I believe that Martin’s main motivation for writing these books this way was being pissed at how romanticized/sanitized the past (especially the Middle-Ages) are, especially in fantasy.

Here's a jokey rap battle between Martin and Tolkien which really does describe the difference between the authors pretty well

It’s impressive how much they get wrong (about Tolkien) especially. Still very funny though.

[Malacandra]

Bilbo was Tolkien’s Mary Sue.

Fat old dude who got to hang out with elves and eat good food and translate old books, and then he goes off to an afterlife where he can keep doing that forever?

Nyetski. The Undying Lands don't make you undying (for which, see Akallabeth). Bilbo gets to see the far side of the sea, but then he's going to die before very much longer. Frodo quite possibly lives long enough to see Sam arrive, but the reason why he went was to be eased of the pain he was repeatedly subjected to on account of the Morgul-knife, Shelob's sting, Gollum biting his finger off, and living on after the Ring was gone.

[Jaziggy]

Since I saw this page for the first time, I keep wondering if they are related to MITD.

They have extra-planar 'accents' to their voices, but it's not resolved whether that's the product of origin or growing up somewhere, so it's certainly possible. My guess is the frail remnants of destroyed pantheons, but that's just a guess.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The half-dragon bounty hunter had the same 'accent' bubbles.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'll put two quataloos on "the rest of the OOTS has been captured by the unseen duo", which explains why they haven't stormed in already.

Did you get odds on that bet? I'd not have taken that one at less than a 7 to 1.

[Dion]

And by forever you mean a handful of years before he dies of a old age and goes to his actual designated afterlife? The Undying Lands are called that because the people who livee there are undying, not because going there makes you.

I (partially) agree.

The ring had an effect on all that possessed it that caused them to live far beyond their normal lifespan. This was not portrayed as something pleasant or beneficial. And between the destruction of the ring and the journey to Valinor, hopefully curse was somehow ameliorated.

But from my (admittedly limited) knowledge of Tolkien’s works, it seems somewhat unclear exactly what happened to Sam, Frodo, and Bilbo in the end. Tolkien himself probably didn’t always know 100% for sure.

At any rate, my main point was that the closest to self insertion in the books was Bilbo. Well, Beren and Luthien maybe. But really Bilbo.

[Fyraltari]

I (partially) agree.

The ring had an effect on all that possessed it that caused them to live far beyond their normal lifespan. This was not portrayed as something pleasant or beneficial. And between the destruction of the ring and the journey to Valinor, hopefully curse was somehow ameliorated.

But from my (admittedly limited) knowledge of Tolkien’s works, it seems somewhat unclear exactly what happened to Sam, Frodo, and Bilbo in the end. Tolkien himself probably didn’t always know 100% for sure.

They grew old and they died. That’s what always happen in the end.Immortals nonwithstanding.

At any rate, my main point was that the closest to self insertion in the books was Bilbo. Well, Beren and Luthien maybe. But really Bilbo.

If I remember correctly, that one Gondorian healer that goes on a tangent on the etymology of athelas rather than provide any useful information was supposed to be a self-depreciating insert as well.

[bunsen_h]

Bilbo gets to see the far side of the sea, but then he's going to die before very much longer. Frodo quite possibly lives long enough to see Sam arrive,

Assuming, of course, that having a couple of round-eathers on board doesn't mess up the navigation or something.

"We're sinking! Why are we sinking?!"

"It's as though the ship is following the round path even though we're supposed to be following the straight path!"

[Silent Wrangler]

Assuming, of course, that having a couple of round-eathers on board doesn't mess up the navigation or something.

"We're sinking! Why are we sinking?!"

"It's as though the ship is following the round path even though we're supposed to be following the straight path!"

You better hope it's sinking and not going into orbit without a spacesuit

[bunsen_h]

You better hope it's sinking and not going into orbit without a spacesuit

That's more like what it would be like if the ship somehow managed to follow the straight path instead of following the curved one that it should have.

[pendell]

Next you are going to tell me you wouldn’t put 30 X-Wings against a pace station with the firepower of 100 destroyers.

Honestly? If I had a choice? No. If I did, the target would be an abandoned asteroid station or similar rather than the One Rebel Base where the command is hiding out.

If I have time to pick and choose when and how I'm going to engage with starfighters, why not do it with several hundred or even several thousand? Or, heck, try that sequel trilogy trick where we ram it with a ship from hyperspace. :smallamused;

[quote]
[QUOTE=pendell;24722992]You've got one contender to the throne who's a butcher

I’m guessing Joffrey?

Spoiler

Show

I'm going from the show, not the books, but Joffrey qualifies, and so do the Boltons, and so do the Ironborn. They of "we do not sow" -- those words meanings they live by plundering others, not by making anything themselves.

I believe that Martin’s main motivation for writing these books this way was being pissed at how romanticized/sanitized the past (especially the Middle-Ages) are, especially in fantasy.

Agreed. I think among other things he was upset by the portrayal of Aragorn as a King Arthur stand-in who practically walks on water, has magic powers, is utterly incorruptible and quite wise. A lot of Martin seems to aim directly at this romanticization of kingship, to point out that most monarchs in real history aren't Aragorn.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[mjasghar]

It was supposed to be a nod to the legends of sailing to the blessed isles which in itself might have been ancient memories of sailing to the Caribbean. It’s not impossible for such journeys to have taken place in prehistory

[Grey Watcher]

Agreed. I think among other things he was upset by the portrayal of Aragorn as a King Arthur stand-in who practically walks on water, has magic powers, is utterly incorruptible and quite wise. A lot of Martin seems to aim directly at this romanticization of kingship, to point out that most monarchs in real history aren't Aragorn.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

OK, tanget on a tangent on a tangent, but I don't remember Aragorn doing anything outright magical. Superhuman, absolutely, but I always read him as more like Captain America than Superman. Can do things ordinary people can't, but it's a matter of doing the same things but better rather than doing things normal people can't even imitate (like flying or laser eyes).

Take the healing hands bit. I don't know why everyone parses that as a Paladin-esque Lay on Hands. It always read to me that he's just really, really good at herbalism and field medicine. (Like, Marty Stu good, which is a fair criticism.)

I can understand being frustrated with how good Aragorn is at everything, but I don't recall him crossing the line into overtly magical.

I also think part of what Tolkein was trying to do was play with the idea that, in more traditional mythology, Aragorn would be the hero, alongside the likes of Hercules or Lancelot or Gilgamesh. So it's a subversion that a pampered aristocrat from nowheresville and his gardener end up being the real heroes. But then everyone in the fantasy genre imitated Tolkein and what had been a deviation from the norm BECAME the norm itself and makes the choice look hacky I'm retrospect.

[bunsen_h]

OK, tanget on a tangent on a tangent, but I don't remember Aragorn doing anything outright magical. Superhuman, absolutely, but I always read him as more like Captain America than Superman. Can do things ordinary people can't, but it's a matter of doing the same things but better rather than doing things normal people can't even imitate (like flying or laser eyes).

Take the healing hands bit. I don't know why everyone parses that as a Paladin-esque Lay on Hands. It always read to me that he's just really, really good at herbalism and field medicine. (Like, Marty Stu good, which is a fair criticism.)

I can understand being frustrated with how good Aragorn is at everything, but I don't recall him crossing the line into overtly magical.

"He sat down on the ground, and taking the dagger-hilt laid it on his knees, and he sang over it a slow song in a strange tongue."

Either he's doing something pointlessly superstitious, or he's doing something magical.

Now, the limited perceptions of the Hobbit viewpoint don't get to see what's really going on there. But something is.

[PontificatusRex]

I (partially) agree.


At any rate, my main point was that the closest to self insertion in the books was Bilbo. Well, Beren and Luthien maybe. But really Bilbo.

I seem to recall reading in Tolkien's letters that the character he most resembled in LoTR was Treebeard. And yeah, the story of Beren and Luthien was a tribute to his wife and their relationship, but I don't think he identified with Beren as the Great Hero figure.

[PontificatusRex]

Turning back to OOTS - anyone else think of this strip as the sequel to Go Team Cleric ?

[Jaziggy]

The half-dragon bounty hunter had the same 'accent' bubbles.

At first I disagreed with this but after poking around, I think this is one of the closest parallels. We've got a theme of evil extraplanars who have bright color text on black, and good extraplanars with black text on yellow. There's a chlorine elemental with black on green, black dragons with white on purple, and the Gods have dark grey on various colors depending on their pantheon.

The only other creature my cursory look identified that was 'light on dark' of the same color were the samurai ghosts, who are light blue on a darker blue. I'm going to stick with the ghost of dead Gods, but a dragon of some type is not out of the question.

ETA: There's also the air fairies and other neutral extraplanars that seem to be white on various colors.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Don't forget not-Thad last book.

[Worldsong]

"He sat down on the ground, and taking the dagger-hilt laid it on his knees, and he sang over it a slow song in a strange tongue."

Either he's doing something pointlessly superstitious, or he's doing something magical.

Probably both.

[unbjorn]

I'll put two quataloos on "the rest of the OOTS has been captured by the unseen duo", which explains why they haven't stormed in already.

Did you get odds on that bet? I'd not have taken that one at less than a 7 to 1.

Hmm, I haven't checked with the bookie on the what the Order is going to do line, but I saw you and tawnyterror betting on the Order rushing in within 2 panels so I guess I'm only getting 3:1

[Grey Watcher]

"He sat down on the ground, and taking the dagger-hilt laid it on his knees, and he sang over it a slow song in a strange tongue."

Either he's doing something pointlessly superstitious, or he's doing something magical.

Now, the limited perceptions of the Hobbit viewpoint don't get to see what's really going on there. But something is.

I'd forgotten about that. Though it's still a little unclear if that's his personal mojo or something anyone could theoretically learn. Is the magic in him or in the music or language or something?

Darn soft magic systems and their ambiguity.

Also, weird what bits do and don't stick out in one's memory and which ones get completely forgotten. I guess he is a bit more magical than I remember.

[WanderingMist]

Xykon likely having an astronomical Bluff modifier probably doesn't hurt, either.

Don't need Bluff if you've got ranks in Reverse Psychology.

Looking at the strip again , is it possible that Lien and O-chul are being carried away as prisoners by the invisible people, rather than outright murdered by them? That was how I read this strip when I first saw it. I can't believe that two characters like O-chul and Lien would simply be shot dead in one panel and then thrown off a cliff, never to be seen again. GRR Martin is not the author here

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Yeah, definitely carried given that their previous ledge is below them.

There's speculation he's changing the books based on the widespread dislike for the last season of the TV show.

A terrible theory, given that it took 6 years between books four and five, except that book four was supposed to be the second half of book 3, so the real gap could be said to be 11 years.

I seem to recall reading in Tolkien's letters that the character he most resembled in LoTR was Treebeard. And yeah, the story of Beren and Luthien was a tribute to his wife and their relationship, but I don't think he identified with Beren as the Great Hero figure.

No, Treebeard is meant to be C.S. Lewis. And Professor Digory from Narnia is meant to be Tolkien. The two were friends in real life and members of a literary club together called the Inklings.

I'd forgotten about that. Though it's still a little unclear if that's his personal mojo or something anyone could theoretically learn. Is the magic in him or in the music or language or something?

Darn soft magic systems and their ambiguity.

Also, weird what bits do and don't stick out in one's memory and which ones get completely forgotten. I guess he is a bit more magical than I remember.

Given that Tolkien was very Catholic, it's probably supposed to be some combination of both.

[bunsen_h]

I'd forgotten about that. Though it's still a little unclear if that's his personal mojo or something anyone could theoretically learn. Is the magic in him or in the music or language or something?

"'Here I must put forth all such power and skill as is given to me,' he said. 'Would that Elrond were here, for he is the eldest of all our race, and has the greater power.'"

My understanding is that he's got the potential from his heritage, but still had to learn and practise to develop it.

There isn't a lot of obvious magic in LotR, but at Bilbo's party at the beginning, the Hobbit children were given Dwarf-made toys, some "obviously magical". Which implies that it isn't that big a deal to be creating a minor magical item.

[skim172]

Sounds more like the Barbarian's Feather Fall.

The Fighter's Feather Fall is blocking the ground.

Then there's the "Red Mage's Feather Fall": dropping a healing potion at the apex of your trajectory so it will smash against your broken body upon landing, thus healing your wounds.

You can't prove it wouldn't work.

I mean, you could - as in, you could provide a literal proof by working out the necessary physics formulas to indicate that it's not possible. But c'mon, Dungeon Master, do you really want to spend all your time doing the physics calculations, or should we just continue with our session?


(I really regret I never got the chance to actually try this myself in a tabletop session.)

[Jaziggy]

"'There isn't a lot of obvious magic in LotR, but at Bilbo's party at the beginning, the Hobbit children were given Dwarf-made toys, some "obviously magical". Which implies that it isn't that big a deal to be creating a minor magical item.

I'm reading the Hobbit to my kids, and it's striking (and defies my recollection) how common lesser magic is. Gandalf is constantly casting little cantrips: tricks of light, magical smoke rings (Thorin also has this ability), etc. He also casts more 'real' spells than I remembered, although not nearly as often as a D&D spellcaster would. The sense I get is that magic is logarithmically difficult- a spellcaster can do little things without thought or effort, it requires a pretty desperate circumstance to be worth expending the effort for what we'd think of as 'adventuring magic' (Gandalf drops a potent fireball effect on the goblins, for example) and it requires extraordinary gifts to create effects that leave a lasting impact on the world, or use powerful magical items like the Palantir.

Much of a wizard's potency in LotR comes from centuries of careful accumulation of power and knowledge, rather than potent elemental effects.

[Ruck]

George RR Martin wrote the "Song of Ice and Fire" series on which the HBO tv phenomenon "Game of Thrones" was based. That is, he's still writing the books though the TV series concluded, making an ending based on his outline. There's speculation he's changing the books based on the widespread dislike for the last season of the TV show.

People still think he's going to finish the books?