OOTS #1215 - The Discussion Thread

[magwaaf]

well done Burlew... this is hands down my favorite strip since "I'M A SEXY SHOELESS GOD OF WAR!" because of knowing that feeling...

[Ruck]

Again, what's the evidence for that?

Well, his own complaints about the "Mereenese knot" (aka his inability to get Dany off Essos and back to the plot), combined with, again, the fact that in nine years he has written zero words that were intended for books 6 and 7. (The "leaked chapters" of book 6 were chapters he wrote for book 5 that couldn't be included in the book because it couldn't be bound, and nobody was editing down Martin after book 3.)

[Anitar]

Is it known definitively that he hasn't written such notes?

This is what I've read on the matter. It's... less conclusive than I'd like.

[PattThe]

Rerail attempt:

My over/under for V being shipped back to Hell is 5 more strips.

Oooh.. Off panel would be hilarious. Big mystery of V not being present, thus unable to give the party fly. If they were to intervene, it's have to either be all in or some flashy rope-hanging swashbucklery--- which is still not a great choice as they are now in what I assume is a narrow cliffed valley.

[danielxcutter]

Oooh.. Off panel would be hilarious. Big mystery of V not being present, thus unable to give the party fly. If they were to intervene, it's have to either be all in or some flashy rope-hanging swashbucklery--- which is still not a great choice as they are now in what I assume is a narrow cliffed valley.

V's body still remains on the Material; it's just that the archfiends yoink their soul and protect their body from harm during that period.

[Fyraltari]

the fact that in nine years he has written zero words that were intended for books 6 and 7.

Hmm, source?

[Ghosty]

...George RR Martin has done no such thing, and actively avoids telling anybody concrete information.

It SEEMS to be that he gave the showrunners a roadmap to finish the TV series roughly equivalent to how he wanted to end the books, but given the insane backlash to how poorly they execute it, I think its highly likely the ending of the books will change (if we ever even get it).

I wonder if his ex-personal assistant knows the answer to those plot questions?

As it is, given how badly the final season turned out (and truthfully, large chunks of the prior two seasons, as far as major characters gleefully hoisting high the Idiot Ball)---all with Martin's input, are we sure we even want to see the last two books?

EDIT: I did not know that, Ruck, about the Book 6 excerpts he'd released.

[danielxcutter]

How much was that actually him and how much was executive meddling, though? Because companies can be like that.

[pendell]

Again, what's the evidence for that?

Mind you, my idea of "funny" would be an April Fools article about how the series would be completed by a collaboration by Spider Robinson and Piers Anthony.

Spoiler: Joke explained

Show

Robinson is notorious for wrangling stories through contortions to produce happy endings which are extremely unlikely given the original setup. Anthony is notorious for starting series well and then driving them down, down, down in quality, then further down, then adding a few more sequels to continue the trend. And very weak word play which he thinks of as "puns". And a fetish about girls' panties in young-adult books. And this concept that his protagonists' utter nobility of character and integrity will always be rewarded by success. And then writing some more terrible sequels.

I could be mis-interpreting, but you strike me as a non-fan of Piers Anthony. Which particular works are you talking about? I read him in the 80s --- some Xanth (didn't care for), Bio of a Space Tyrant (great at the time, hasn't aged well, especially since my own views are markedly different from his), Split Infinity/Adept series (the original three were good, lost interest in the sequels).

How much was that actually him and how much was executive meddling, though? Because companies can be like that.

Executive meddling happens in books as well as movies. For my money, I think a certain amount of executive meddling is a good thing. The Lucas original star wars is far and away the best because the suits weren't afraid to tell the shiny new director what would sell and what wouldn't. It's only after he was successful and no one would change any idea he had that we started getting things like Jar-Jar Binks. Same with Heinlein; his later books when no one would edit the 'great genious' aren't a patch on his earlier ones.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[WanderingMist]

Rerail attempt:

My over/under for V being shipped back to Hell is 5 more strips.

I'm all in on exactly 11 strips from now, right when V is about to do something that would let Roy be able to end the threat of Xykon once and for all.

Oona: "Redcloak suggests big explosion, tiny lady reply with big hammer! Very spirited debate!"

Oona is disappointed that the debate did not get to finish. Also that she was not invited and was only allowed to try to kill them.

I could be mis-interpreting, but you strike me as a non-fan of Piers Anthony. Which particular works are you talking about? I read him in the 80s --- some Xanth (didn't care for), Bio of a Space Tyrant (great at the time, hasn't aged well, especially since my own views are markedly different from his), Split Infinity/Adept series (the original three were good, lost interest in the sequels).



Executive meddling happens in books as well as movies. For my money, I think a certain amount of executive meddling is a good thing. The Lucas original star wars is far and away the best because the suits weren't afraid to tell the shiny new director what would sell and what wouldn't. It's only after he was successful and no one would change any idea he had that we started getting things like Jar-Jar Binks. Same with Heinlein; his later books when no one would edit the 'great genious' aren't a patch on his earlier ones.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I do wonder if a lot of the hate the prequels get is less derived from actual quality issues (though they definitely have those in some regards) and more derived from people having way too high expectations due to the intervening decades. After all, movies you see when you're a kid are always better than movies you see when you're an adult, and many of the people going to see the prequels had seen the original Star Wars movies when they were kids. It's too late now due to the Internet existing, but if people had interviewed children who watched the movies back then, I wonder what they would have thought of them compared to the adults.

Also, The Empire Strikes Back is the most overrated part of the original trilogy. Return of the Jedi and A New Hope were better.

[Ghosty]

How much was that actually him and how much was executive meddling, though? Because companies can be like that.

Impossible to say, just like I don't think anyone can say definitively whether he has the remaining ASOIAF plot points nailed down or not. I do think he had some level of control over the HBO product (versus the typical author that sold their work to Hollywood or TV), and he either didn't care about keeping up with the dailies or felt he couldn't improve on what D&D cobbled together.

Really, IMHO, Martin needs to give Ty Franck whatever he asks for, to get him to come back and help Martin spit these last two books out. Or have Franck agree to write them as GRRM posthumously, from his notes and records, whatever. Whole lot of potential sales there, especially if Winter ends up being better than Crows or Dragons, as I think it would, if Franck were assisting Martin again.

Or GRRM may just be out of ideas. It happens. I'm glad it hasn't seemed to happen with OOTS.

[JonahFalcon]

Oona: "Redcloak suggests big explosion, tiny lady reply with big hammer! Very spirited debate!"

Well, my point was that Xykon probably knows Redcloak and Durkon were negotiating something, and it very likely was counter to his goals.

[Rogar Demonblud]

All RC has to do is give Xykon the summary: the dwarf's offer is 'quit what you're doing and maybe we'll let you keep the city you conquered'.

[bunsen_h]

I could be mis-interpreting, but you strike me as a non-fan of Piers Anthony. Which particular works are you talking about? I read him in the 80s --- some Xanth (didn't care for), Bio of a Space Tyrant (great at the time, hasn't aged well, especially since my own views are markedly different from his), Split Infinity/Adept series (the original three were good, lost interest in the sequels).

I quite liked the first few Xanth books, though they have aged very poorly. (I would not give them to a young person today; some of their assumptions and comments are odious.) And then they got weak, and very weak, and then bad.

I quite liked the first couple of Split Infinity books, then they got bad, then very bad.

I liked the first Incarnations of Immortality book, and then they got bad, then very bad.

Some of his short stories are interesting. And some are just truly gross.

I think I gave up on Anthony, completely, when I heard about his novel Firefly. That was a "never again" for me.

[JonahFalcon]

All RC has to do is give Xykon the summary: the dwarf's offer is 'quit what you're doing and maybe we'll let you keep the city you conquered'.

"Ah, Redcloak. Don't confuse not caring with not knowing."

He might care now.

[Metastachydium]

"Ah, Redcloak. Don't confuse not caring with not knowing."

He might care now.

Care about what? Redcloak did not acknowledge during his little discussion with Durkon that he is deceiving Xykon. Further, the Implosion and its aftermath are proof enough that Redcloak was not interested in Durkon's offer or that he was not even negotiating in good faith to begin with.

[Ruck]

Hmm, source?

I don't have a definitive source because Martin isn't going to admit he hasn't written anything, but my question is, "what evidence is there he has written anything?" I conclude he hasn't for all the reasons I've previously stated - including the fact that he's quite visibly and publicly spending all his time doing things that are not writing the books.

[BriarHobbit]

"Ah, Redcloak. Don't confuse not caring with not knowing."

He might care now.

Yes, he might. "Start of Darkness", volume -1, had some very interesting information about Redcloak and Xykon's working relationship. I think that some reminders for Redcloak are in order.

[understatement]

"Ah, Redcloak. Don't confuse not caring with not knowing."

He might care now.

Care about what? Redcloak did not acknowledge during his little discussion with Durkon that he is deceiving Xykon. Further, the Implosion and its aftermath are proof enough that Redcloak was not interested in Durkon's offer or that he was not even negotiating in good faith to begin with.

With Meta here. Redcloak didn't explicitly confirm any of Durkon's assertions - "I see no reason to confirm or deny that hypothesis" - and Xykon already knows that Redcloak plans to have the Gate's goal end up with goblin equality, as stated in #832. Possibly the only incriminating evidence is the "I'm willing to let the world be destroyed," but that isn't exactly Goal A, which is Xykon's primary goal (to seize the Gate).

There's a difference between "Xykon being smarter than he appears" versus "secretly revealing to be pulling off Machiavellian moves."

[bunsen_h]

I don't have a definitive source because Martin isn't going to admit he hasn't written anything, but my question is, "what evidence is there he has written anything?" I conclude he hasn't for all the reasons I've previously stated - including the fact that he's quite visibly and publicly spending all his time doing things that are not writing the books.

You've made the unprovable -- and rather derogatory -- assertion that he hasn't written anything. He hasn't made any statements to that effect, and there isn't somebody watching him "all his time".

It's certainly possible. I'm not going to make assumptions either way. But I am somewhat inclined to take issue with someone being rude about it.

Perhaps finishing off the series could be Rich's next big project after OOTS. Though I suspect that if it were really to be handed off to someone else, the most likely candidate would be "James S.A. Corey", author of The Expanse, AKA Daniel Abraham and Ty Franck. The former has collaborated with Martin on a number of projects including some GoT stuff, and the latter was Martin's personal assistant for some time.

[Ruck]

You've made the unprovable -- and rather derogatory -- assertion that he hasn't written anything. He hasn't made any statements to that effect, and there isn't somebody watching him "all his time".

It's certainly possible. I'm not going to make assumptions either way. But I am somewhat inclined to take issue with someone being rude about it.

I find it insulting that "drawing conclusions from the available evidence" is now considered rude or derogatory. I'm not going to lie to myself about what I think is most likely true.

[bunsen_h]

I find it insulting that "drawing conclusions from the available evidence" is now considered rude or derogatory. I'm not going to lie to myself about what I think is most likely true.

There is a significant difference between "I think that he hasn't written anything", or even "I'm certain that he hasn't written anything", and "he hasn't written anything". Especially in the face of several challenges to support the claim.

Out of curiosity, has Rich ever mentioned doing anything to make the OOTS project "bus-proof"?

[Kornaki]

On the other hand, it would be very weird if he finished book 5 and did zero anything for book 6. I think something like "he probably hasn't worked in it in five years" is probably true, but "he has written zero words for book six" seems unlikely.

[KorvinStarmast]

My over/under for V being shipped back to Hell is 5 more strips.

I'll take the over, three quataloos. Rich has been 'fleshing out' the strip of late ...

he doesn't seem to know how it's supposed to continue from here.

Nor does he seem to care. ChaChing!

I could be mis-interpreting, but you strike me as a non-fan of Piers Anthony.

We are legion. His first book or two, which I read when they came out, were OK and even fun. After that he induced regurgitation with each new offering. Regression to the mean is too kind of an assessment.

I though they have aged very poorly.

I never recommended these books to my children, and I let them read Harry Potter books.

[danielxcutter]

Since Nero suggested going over to his place and he’s likely an archdaemon, I’ll take that bet too. 5 quatloos.

[bunsen_h]

We are legion. His first book or two, which I read when they came out, were OK and even fun. After that he induced regurgitation with each new offering. Regression to the mean is too kind of an assessment.

There are currently 43 books in the Xanth series. Three more are listed as "forthcoming" in the W'pedia list.

I never recommended these books to my children, and I let them read Harry Potter books.

Potter isn't great literature, but it's engaging, and there's this to be said about its popularity: it makes it easy for fans to find other fans to discuss the books with. I'm glad that they've encouraged a lot of young people to get enthusiastic about reading.

But there are other YA SF/fantasy books that are much better written. Patricia Wrede's "Magic Forest Chronicles" and a number of books by Robin McKinley, Terry Pratchett, and Diana Wynne Jones come to mind.

[Yirggzmb]

Patricia Wrede's "Magic Forest Chronicles"

Genuinely some of my favorite comfort reading, even as an adult.

[bunsen_h]

Genuinely some of my favorite comfort reading, even as an adult.

They are lovely, aren't they? In case you didn't know, in addition to the four main books, there are also a short story and a recipe, in her Book of Enchantments collection: "Utensile Strength" and "Quick After-Battle Triple Chocolate Cake".

Maybe Rich could work on a recipe book. Belkar, the MitD, and Lirian's prison cave could feature prominently. Vegetarian protein, natch.

[KorvinStarmast]

"Magic Forest Chronicles"

Thanks for the recommendation, I've got a trip coming up in a few months.

[Plus_C]

I don't see why Redcloak would even have to lie to Xykon.

"They were representatives of Thor hoping to negotiate a peace deal with the Dark One. I heard them out but their offer wasn't good enough so I decided to kill them instead."