OOTS #1215 - The Discussion Thread

[Fyraltari]

I don't see why Redcloak would even have to lie to Xykon.

"They were representatives of Thor hoping to negotiate a peace deal with the Dark One. I heard them out but their offer wasn't good enough so I decided to kill them instead."

You heard them out? And what in your pansy-ass god's name made you think that I would be interested in any of that? You haven't forgotten who you really work for, have you, Wrong-Eye?

[Metastachydium]

You heard them out? And what in your pansy-ass god's name made you think that I would be interested in any of that? You haven't forgotten who you really work for, have you, Wrong-Eye?

How about this:
”They were the lackeys of Greenhilt, the fighter who destroyed your body that one time. One of them came here claiming to be a 'representative of Thor' 'hoping' to 'negotiate' a 'peace deal' with the Dark One. I heard him out in case he had anything useful to say, but he didn't, so I decided to cut it short and kill him instead. And then the other one attacked me, so I decided to kill or capture her as well.”
(Which is still factually correct.)

[hungrycrow]

Doesn't Xykon also want to negotiate a surrender at some point?

[Forikroder]

You heard them out? And what in your pansy-ass god's name made you think that I would be interested in any of that? You haven't forgotten who you really work for, have you, Wrong-Eye?

"if the gods are willing to give us everything we want without having to try a few hundred more doors why not? honestly i was hoping he might give up some info about the rest of the party too or might know something about how to find the rift"

[RatElemental]

Doesn't Xykon also want to negotiate a surrender at some point?

not from the gods, as far as I know. He just wants to rule the world, and thinks that controlling the snarl will give him an overwhelming enough military advantage to do so.

[Metastachydium]

not from the gods, as far as I know. He just wants to rule the world, and thinks that controlling the snarl will give him an overwhelming enough military advantage to do so.

Yeah, that's right, but he strikes me as the kind of person who would actually dare to go that big.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I don't have a definitive source because Martin isn't going to admit he hasn't written anything, but my question is, "what evidence is there he has written anything?" I conclude he hasn't for all the reasons I've previously stated - including the fact that he's quite visibly and publicly spending all his time doing things that are not writing the books.

Actually, you don't know that. He could easily be writing an hour each evening on his laptop after doing the other stuff. Don't know means don't know, and we don't know what he's doing with all his time.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't see why Redcloak would even have to lie to Xykon.
"They were representatives of Thor hoping to negotiate a peace deal with the Dark One. I heard them out but their offer wasn't good enough so I decided to kill them instead."

And the Truth works out well enoug.

”They were the lackeys of Greenhilt, the fighter who destroyed your body that one time. One of them came here claiming to be a 'representative of Thor' 'hoping' to 'negotiate' a 'peace deal' with the Dark One. I heard him out in case he had anything useful to say, but he didn't, so I decided to cut it short and kill him instead. And then the other one attacked me, so I decided to kill or capture her as well.”

Works fine if Xykon let's him finish the paragraph. Xykon has a habit from way back of interruping him, or cutting him off in mid sentence.

Actually, you don't know that. He could easily be writing an hour each evening on his laptop after doing the other stuff. Don't know means don't know, and we don't know what he's doing with all his time.

He has also written a bunch of stuff, short stories, that are prequel stuff and **not** the main series that he claimed he'd finish. He has certainly not stopped writing. (I just had a flash of Billy Crystals' character from Throw Momma From the Train: a writer writes!)

[Doug Lampert]

And the Truth works out well enoug.
Works fine if Xykon let's him finish the paragraph. Xykon has a habit from way back of interruping him, or cutting him off in mid sentence.
He has also written a bunch of stuff, short stories, that are prequel stuff and **not** the main series that he claimed he'd finish. He has certainly not stopped writing. (I just had a flash of Billy Crystals' character from Throw Momma From the Train: a writer writes!)

I remember one author, I can't remember who unfortunately, defending Robert Jordan's slow production back in the day by claiming that multi mega-word story arcs that take multiple novels are HARD.

You don't get any prior practice on multi-volume epics (this was before David Weber, who seems to have 6 going at once and also has real trouble finishing any of them). All your prior stories were (much) shorter, you need to keep track of an increasingly complicated story line and keep everything reasonably consistent. Each volume needs to contribute to the overall epic, but ALSO needs to end on a satisfactory conclusion. Then the final volume needs to also finish off the whole thing and at least most of the dangling threads you left in all the other volumes.

The closest thing you have for practice on any of this is a short story collection in a single setting with a continuing plot such as Tuf Voyaging for Martin, but that's much shorter and easier.

It isn't easy, GRRM may simply have blocked on how to write the next volume, either temporarily, or permanently. I personally don't think Jordan would have ever finished on his own if his health hadn't been failing. The books had slowed to a crawl for multiple volumes in the middle, under threat of death he moved some in the last couple he wrote, and he left notes for someone else to finish it (in theory in one novel, released as three heavy doorstops by Brandon Sanderson, because it simply wasn't possible, even then, to wrap it up in a single volume).

[Mightymosy]

All that being said, I do wonder what amount of time authors actually sit in front of their PC and *try* writing. As opposed to doing something else "waiting until their muse kisses them".

I am not a professional writer, but my experience has always been that no matter how hard your muse is trying to deny you, once you bite your teeth and sit down to *work*, without distraction readily available, you actually get stuff done (and it feels awesome).

The idea that the game of thrones guy was more productive due to his assistant keeping him focused therefore makes a lot of sense to me.

A nice idea to write that makes sense to me is to go somewhere secluded, where either people nor other entertainment distract you. Basically, either you write or you sit there *very bored*. Maybe that helps? I have to try that one time.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It doesn't help. Mostly you just sit there thinking about how bored you are. I've found the best way to get started is to begin by editing what I did last time, since that gets me thinking about whatever it is I'm trying to write (you think fiction is hard, try action reports in bureaucratese).

[Skull the Troll]

I remember one author, I can't remember who unfortunately, defending Robert Jordan's slow production back in the day by claiming that multi mega-word story arcs that take multiple novels are HARD.

You don't get any prior practice on multi-volume epics (this was before David Weber, who seems to have 6 going at once and also has real trouble finishing any of them). All your prior stories were (much) shorter, you need to keep track of an increasingly complicated story line and keep everything reasonably consistent. Each volume needs to contribute to the overall epic, but ALSO needs to end on a satisfactory conclusion. Then the final volume needs to also finish off the whole thing and at least most of the dangling threads you left in all the other volumes.

The closest thing you have for practice on any of this is a short story collection in a single setting with a continuing plot such as Tuf Voyaging for Martin, but that's much shorter and easier.

It isn't easy, GRRM may simply have blocked on how to write the next volume, either temporarily, or permanently. I personally don't think Jordan would have ever finished on his own if his health hadn't been failing. The books had slowed to a crawl for multiple volumes in the middle, under threat of death he moved some in the last couple he wrote, and he left notes for someone else to finish it (in theory in one novel, released as three heavy doorstops by Brandon Sanderson, because it simply wasn't possible, even then, to wrap it up in a single volume).

Most folks hating the TV series ending might be in there too for GRRM. He might be needed to work out an entirely different ending. Personally I think the "Bram the Broken" could have been handled in a way that made it make sense. Imagine this.

Spoiler: R+L=J and TV show spoilers

Show

Bram has been influenced to evil by the Night King and by his repeated use of warging into humans. Jon is NOT the rightful heir. Bram spreads this story knowing it will cause a rift between him and Dany. He knows it will cause Dany to go mad. He knows it will force Jon to kill her, breaking his spirit and destroying his want and ability to be king. Bran takes the throne, the only military force that could oppose go back across the sea. Bran rules for thousands of years as the undying King of Westeros with ability to always know how the Game of Thrones will roll out. Eventually his cruelty is evident and the humans suffer. In the end, although only Bran knows it, the Night King has won.

[bunsen_h]

I remember one author, I can't remember who unfortunately, defending Robert Jordan's slow production back in the day by claiming that multi mega-word story arcs that take multiple novels are HARD.

You don't get any prior practice on multi-volume epics (this was before David Weber, who seems to have 6 going at once and also has real trouble finishing any of them). All your prior stories were (much) shorter, you need to keep track of an increasingly complicated story line and keep everything reasonably consistent. Each volume needs to contribute to the overall epic, but ALSO needs to end on a satisfactory conclusion. Then the final volume needs to also finish off the whole thing and at least most of the dangling threads you left in all the other volumes.

The closest thing you have for practice on any of this is a short story collection in a single setting with a continuing plot such as Tuf Voyaging for Martin, but that's much shorter and easier.

There's a basic principle that anything which is going to be published in parts has to be well enough planned out that the story will ultimately go in a direction that the author and readers will find satisfying. It's much simpler if the author doesn't intend everything to be a big story arc. Ty Franck, Martin's former personal assistant, says that Martin's work is more improvisational, which is problematic for this kind of big story.

I mean, he could end the thing with a Shakespearian-tragedy "everybody dies". He's only got a problem because he wants to come up with a better outcome than what obviously follows from the situations the characters were in as of when they were last written about.

[Ghosty]

Most folks hating the TV series ending might be in there too for GRRM. He might be needed to work out an entirely different ending. Personally I think the "Bram the Broken" could have been handled in a way that made it make sense. Imagine this.

Spoiler: R+L=J and TV show spoilers

Show

Bram has been influenced to evil by the Night King and by his repeated use of warging into humans. Jon is NOT the rightful heir. Bram spreads this story knowing it will cause a rift between him and Dany. He knows it will cause Dany to go mad. He knows it will force Jon to kill her, breaking his spirit and destroying his want and ability to be king. Bran takes the throne, the only military force that could oppose go back across the sea. Bran rules for thousands of years as the undying King of Westeros with ability to always know how the Game of Thrones will roll out. Eventually his cruelty is evident and the humans suffer. In the end, although only Bran knows it, the Night King has won.

So, sort of like how Herbert wrote the 4th Dune novel, only minus the altruism.

The professional writers whom I've read that discussed the writing process (Stephen King in, "On Writing" and "Danse Macabre"; Larry Niven in one of his collections.) have said that professional discipline is what kept them working. They block out X hours of their day, and write. Sometimes with a word count goal, other times not. It's a job, in other words, and jobs usually aren't fun.

Wait for the Muse to show up, and you might be waiting awhile.

[Metastachydium]

Most folks hating the TV series ending might be in there too for GRRM. He might be needed to work out an entirely different ending. Personally I think the "Bram the Broken" could have been handled in a way that made it make sense. Imagine this.

Spoiler: R+L=J and TV show spoilers

Show

Bram has been influenced to evil by the Night King and by his repeated use of warging into humans. Jon is NOT the rightful heir. Bram spreads this story knowing it will cause a rift between him and Dany. He knows it will cause Dany to go mad. He knows it will force Jon to kill her, breaking his spirit and destroying his want and ability to be king. Bran takes the throne, the only military force that could oppose go back across the sea. Bran rules for thousands of years as the undying King of Westeros with ability to always know how the Game of Thrones will roll out. Eventually his cruelty is evident and the humans suffer. In the end, although only Bran knows it, the Night King has won.

That sounds a lot better than what we got, but honestly, the last two seasons (not just the ending, mind you) were so horrible, made so little sense and were executed in such a supbar manner that I'm not exactly sure this would have saved the thing on its own.

[Fyraltari]

All that being said, I do wonder what amount of time authors actually sit in front of their PC and *try* writing. As opposed to doing something else "waiting until their muse kisses them".

I am not a professional writer, but my experience has always been that no matter how hard your muse is trying to deny you, once you bite your teeth and sit down to *work*, without distraction readily available, you actually get stuff done (and it feels awesome).

The idea that the game of thrones guy was more productive due to his assistant keeping him focused therefore makes a lot of sense to me.

A nice idea to write that makes sense to me is to go somewhere secluded, where either people nor other entertainment distract you. Basically, either you write or you sit there *very bored*. Maybe that helps? I have to try that one time.

« Isaac Asimov had writer’s block once. It was the ten worst minutes of his life »

some funny guy

Really though, writer’s block is more than just procrastination.

There's a basic principle that anything which is going to be published in parts has to be well enough planned out that the story will ultimately go in a direction that the author and readers will find satisfying. It's much simpler if the author doesn't intend everything to be a big story arc. Ty Franck, Martin's former personal assistant, says that Martin's work is more improvisational, which is problematic for this kind of big story.

I mean, he could end the thing with a Shakespearian-tragedy "everybody dies". He's only got a problem because he wants to come up with a better outcome than what obviously follows from the situations the characters were in as of when they were last written about.

What obviously follows from where the characters where last seen isn’t so bad

Spoiler: end of Dance + speculation for Winds

Show

Stannis uses the lighthouse in the middle of the frozen lake to lead the Frey host on the fragile ice and they drown. The Manderlys ally with Stannis’s forces while the Bolton forced collapses on itself. Yes, I know, the Pink Letter but come on, it’s an obvious lie, even if I can’t work out who wrote it or why. Stannis ends up in control of the North, especially once Davos shows up with Rickon and Shaggydog. Asha gets him onboard the idea of installing Theon on the Seastone Chair (she probably downplays how much the Ironborn aren’t likely to follow him in his current state, she aims to be the real authority) he agrees because: he thinks Theon is rightfully Balon’s heir, he needs a replacement fleet and that’s more allies. Also he gets the Iron Bank’s gold.

Tyrion, Mormont and the Second Sons turn against the Yunkaii and try to free the hostages, the Dornishmen and the Windblown do the same, hilarity ensues. Baristan leads an attack at the same time. In the middle of the battle, the Iron Fleet arrives and joins the fray. Victarion gives in to temptation and blows the horn Dragonbinder because he thinks he’s hard enough to do that. He’s not and dies but at least one dragon (Viserion most likely) is enthralled to Euron’s will and flies off. Daenerys is « captured » by Khal Jaqho who wants to bring her to Vaes Dothrak/kill her/rape her, she has Drogon burn his ass, as well as his bloodriders’ as revenge for Eroeh as she swore to do. She takes over the khalasar and rides to Meereen. Barristan has probably Tyrion, Mormont and Brown Ben (maybe, je still controls the Second Sons) locked up and is in some kind of stalemate with the leaderless Ironborns. She is mighty pissed that one of her dragons is missing and takes the Iron Fleet over to sail to Westeros. Tyrion gains her trust over the course of the book (he probably talks about Nettles and Sheepstealer so she has some proper way to treat her dragons) and of course tells her about (f)Aegon. Before leaving for good, as she’s all « Fire and Blood » now, she reconquers Astapor and Yunkai and has the Wise/Great Masters all butchered. She names the Shavepate Lord of Slaver’s Bay and leaves. She probably makes a couple stop in Volantis and Pentos to end slavery some more and give the Tattered Prince his city in exchange for help and have a word with Illyrio about this secret nephew of her respectively. At some point Marwin the Mage reaches her and he and Moqorro compete for the role of bein her personal magic guy.

Sam’s plot is harder to guess, he befriends Arellas, discovers he’s in fact Sallera (because of course she is) discovers « Jaquen »’s true nature but is unable to stop him from stealing the book he’s after (most likely *the Death of the Dragons*). At some point Euron takes Oldtown and discovers that Sam’s crummy old horn is the Horn of Winter and blows it from the top of the High Tower which crumbles the Wall at the end of the book (okay that part is pretty bad but there’s one book left).

J’aime reveals to Lady Stoneheart that the Arya Ramsay’s married isn’t the real one, he either manage to convince her he didn’t betray her (unlikely) and he, Brienne and Pod escapes. Hunt probably dies but he might get into a love triangle with Jaime and Brienne which is just hilarious. Stoneheart and the Brotherhood without Banners use the stolen Lannister uniforms and Brienne’s paper (plus Tom O’Seven being already inside) to infiltrate Riverrun during Daven Lannister’s wedding and take it over in the Second Red Wedding. The Riverland rise up in arms against the Lannister/Freys behind the Tully either in the name of (f)Aegon or Robb’s true legal heir: Jon Stark. Walker Frey dies either violently there or of old age and House Frey collapses into infighting.

Also I’m guessing (f)Aegon will bond with Rhaegal. No idea what Arya will get up to. I’m guessing Sansa takes Littlefinger’s lessons to heart and starts plotting against the piece of ****.

Edit: Also Jason Mallister is named 999th Lord Commander because there isn’t really anybody else left at some point he dies and somebody becomes the 1000th and last Lord Commander of the Watch. Jon comes back to life, bond with Viserion and end up fighting (f)Aegon. The Three-Eyed Crow reveals that Euron is a failed student of his and goes ape**** when it is discovered that (f)Aegon is actually a Blackfyre. These last things could also happen in Dreams.

[KorvinStarmast]

There's a basic principle that anything which is going to be published in parts has to be well enough planned out that the story will ultimately go in a direction that the author and readers will find satisfying.

That's a good point.

Tolkien wrote himself into a corner at least once, which he described as "The Tale Grew in Telling."

IIRC, GRRM wrote screen plays, didn't he, as one of his vocations?

[Doug Lampert]

There's a basic principle that anything which is going to be published in parts has to be well enough planned out that the story will ultimately go in a direction that the author and readers will find satisfying. It's much simpler if the author doesn't intend everything to be a big story arc. Ty Franck, Martin's former personal assistant, says that Martin's work is more improvisational, which is problematic for this kind of big story.

I mean, he could end the thing with a Shakespearian-tragedy "everybody dies". He's only got a problem because he wants to come up with a better outcome than what obviously follows from the situations the characters were in as of when they were last written about.

The problem with the megaword+ epic is that even if you have an outline it's barely a sketch by the end.

David Drake is the only author I've heard discuss outlining much, and he writes 20,000+ word outlines for single novels (I have heard of other authors who don't write down their outline at all). If you did a Drake level detail outline for Jordan's series before he started he'd have produced something like 300,000+ words of outline, and then if he came up with a better idea while actually writing the first book, some noticeable fraction of it would become obsolete.

It's very unlikely that you won't improvise some during the writing of the early volumes, and that changes and often adds to stuff in the late volumes. So it's only good sense NOT to outline in that kind of detail, unless of course you are Jordan and have about a year to outline the end for someone else to finish it.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Having to rewrite a 300,000 word outline several times doesn't actually seem like a disproportionate time sink to me for a project you spend decades on.

300,000 words of draft/outline is much, much less effort that 300,000 finished words.

Now I'm imagining it's particle man and triangle man.

What kind of speech bubbles to those two have?

Universe-man (obviously) has words made out of constellations on space background.

[Malacandra]

Tolkien wrote himself into a corner at least once, which he described as "The Tale Grew in Telling."

Yes, in the Foreword he says that when the Fellowship reached Balin's Tomb in Moria he didn't know what happened next, and he also says that when Aragorn first turned up at the Prancing Pony he had no more idea than the reader does at that point at who this Man actually was. :)

[hamishspence]

Didn't he originally have him as a hobbit with two peg legs, named Trotter, before he started making the story more serious?

[bunsen_h]

Yes, in the Foreword he says that when the Fellowship reached Balin's Tomb in Moria he didn't know what happened next, and he also says that when Aragorn first turned up at the Prancing Pony he had no more idea than the reader does at that point at who this Man actually was. :)

Sure, but that was long before he published FotR. I'm pretty sure that before he got to the point of publishing that first book, he knew where the story was going in at least moderate detail.

As for outlines, wasted effort when things change, etc., the synopses of the first two volumes of LotR, used at the beginnings of the last two volumes of LotR, ran to about 1¼ pages each. It wouldn't take much more outlining than that to keep things on track for determining whether a new idea could be made to fit into the old story concept, or whether a new story arc would need to be devised. It would depend on the magnitude of the change, I suppose, and all of its consequences -- a matter of thinking things through. I've just re-read Asimov's The End Of Eternity, which is about people meddling with human history to try to improve things, and part of the premise is the "Minimum Necessary Change": what is the smallest intervention necessary to produce the desired result? For example, moving a medication bottle from one shelf to another, causing a person to spend extra time looking for it, causing them to miss a bus, causing them to decide against going to a meeting, so they don't learn something, so they don't invent something, so... no starships in that century.

Didn't he originally have him as a hobbit with two peg legs, named Trotter, before he started making the story more serious?

Trotter, yes, and wooden feet, but it doesn't appear that this was intended not to be serious.

[Fyraltari]

When people say they’ve written themselves into a corner, they mean they’ve created a situation with no way for the story to progress organically. When Tolkien said « the tale grew in the telling » he meant that as he kept writing, what started as a simple children’s book to keep his publisher happy turned into his magnum opus and the conclusion of a body of work he started decades prior that had no connection with the initial project.

These aren’t the same thing at all.

Sure, but that was long before he published FotR. I'm pretty sure that before he got to the point of publishing that first book, he knew where the story was going in at least moderate detail.

Well, yeah. Because it was finished. The Lord of the Ring was written (and is better read, in my personal opinion) as one continuous book, not three separate ones. The split was a decision on the publisher’s part to cut down cost, which is why Fellowship of the Ring doesn’t really have an ending, The War of the Ring The Return of the King doesn’t really have a beginning and The Two Towers doesn’t really have either.

[Riftwolf]

When people say they’ve written themselves into a corner, they mean they’ve created a situation with no way for the story to progress organically. When Tolkien said « the tale grew in the telling » he meant that as he kept writing, what started as a simple children’s book to keep his publisher happy turned into his magnum opus and the conclusion of a body of work he started decades prior that had no connection with the initial project.

These aren’t the same thing at all.



Well, yeah. Because it was finished. The Lord of the Ring was written (and is better read, in my personal opinion) as one continuous book, not three separate ones. The split was a decision on the publisher’s part to cut down cost, which is why Fellowship of the Ring doesn’t really have an ending, The War of the Ring The Return of the King doesn’t really have a beginning and The Two Towers doesn’t really have either.

Two Towers ends on a cliffhanger, at least for the Frodo section. The Helms Deep section makes me wish I could post gifs on my phone of M'Baku yawning and asking 'Are you done? Are-are you *done*?' to emphasise how dragged out it feels. But hopefully everyone will have seen Black Panther and have no trouble mentally conjuring the correct image.

[Worldsong]

Two Towers ends on a cliffhanger, at least for the Frodo section. The Helms Deep section makes me wish I could post gifs on my phone of M'Baku yawning and asking 'Are you done? Are-are you *done*?' to emphasise how dragged out it feels. But hopefully everyone will have seen Black Panther and have no trouble mentally conjuring the correct image.

Most people I know agree that while Lord of the Rings is culturally speaking a very important book which played a big role in the rise of the fantasy genre the book itself is often a rather tedious read. It really drags on and on.

[Krakius]

Most people I know agree that while Lord of the Rings is culturally speaking a very important book which played a big role in the rise of the fantasy genre the book itself is often a rather tedious read. It really drags on and on.

Tolkien: (Paraphrased for brevity) And as they were walking, they passed a group of trees. (Goes on to describe the tree's history anywhere from four paragraphs to four pages).

This, incidentally, is why "The Hobbit" is the better book. At that point Tolkien actually knew the meaning of restraint.

[hroþila]

I will fight each and every one of you and your friends.

edit: the history of the writing of LotR is exceedingly well documented thanks to HoME vol. 6-9. It's easy to see how every idea popped up and was developed through subsequent rewrites. It was a very thorough process with little improvisation.

[Riftwolf]

I will fight each and every one of you and your friends.

edit: the history of the writing of LotR is exceedingly well documented thanks to HoME vol. 6-9. It's easy to see how every idea popped up and was developed through subsequent rewrites. It was a very thorough process with little improvisation.

Wasnt there a Tolkien historian who said 'I've been through all the first drafts and notes that have survived, and it's perfectly clear he was flying blind. There was no scheme, no synopsis... It was shaping itself as he wrote it.'?
Also wasn't Saruman invented after Gandalf didn't meet the Hobbits at Bree, as an explanation for where Gandalf had gone?

Tolkien: (Paraphrased for brevity) And as they were walking, they passed a group of trees. (Goes on to describe the tree's history anywhere from four paragraphs to four pages).

This, incidentally, is why "The Hobbit" is the better book. At that point Tolkien actually knew the meaning of restraint.

I'll give him this; artists love him for describing so much of the world in an evocative but imprecise way. It allows them to interpret his words and build it into an artistic vision (even if, I seem to remember reading, Tolkien disliking how the Fell Beasts ended up reptilian) (and also their artistic vision sometimes makes things impossibly grand, like Minas Tirith, which would be nowhere near as tall as it ended up in the Jackson films)

[KorvinStarmast]

This, incidentally, is why "The Hobbit" is the better book. At that point Tolkien actually knew the meaning of restraint.

It certainly has fewer barriers to entry.

You can also make this observation about the comparison between Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone versus the successively longer door stops that followed it.

For hroþila

As to HoME: I read Unfinished Tales when it came out. IIRC it got retitled later as more of the notes and background got published in the nine volume thing you refer to (Christopher T knew how to milk a cash cow, did he not?). As I had no interest to study Tolkien but rather to read more of his stories, I discovered that there wasn't much more for me. I gave it to a friend.

A few decades later I found "so what's behind all that" to be of more interest.

One of the interesting things about the web comic version of the graphic novel, in my opinion (the two I like best being PvP and OoTS) is that during the story's growth into its final form there are often opportunities to get insights from the author on "what is going on here" that one did not have from conventionally published books.

Which takes us back to the pulps, which is where D&D came from. You'd get parts of a book in serial form, and if you were a fan or met them at a Sci Fi con, or some such, you might get a few tidbits on "well, in that part, here's something I tried to do" or whatever, but that kind if insight was not widespread beyond a bit of fandom here and there.

Having said all that, has the creative process itself changed all that much? Doesn't each tale "grow in telling" before it ends?

[bunsen_h]

Tolkien: (Paraphrased for brevity) And as they were walking, they passed a group of trees. (Goes on to describe the tree's history anywhere from four paragraphs to four pages).

No, the tree's name's history gets four paragraphs to four pages. Its language's history gets an appendix.

This, incidentally, is why "The Hobbit" is the better book. At that point Tolkien actually knew the meaning of restraint.

They were aimed at entirely different readership. It's unsurprising that they're quite different in style.