OOTS #1215 - The Discussion Thread

[Fyraltari]

Maybe they're just wusses and their winters aren't that bad?

In the North it's custom for the all and the disabled to "go for a walk" during the winter so that the rest of the family has enough food to see it through. During a prior war (the danse of the dragons), about two thousands of these formed an army with the express purpose of getting killed in battle. This particular war happened in winter (though it did spare the North wahre winter is worst), so apparently they can stomach it. Or well could if it weren't for the army of the dead coming to get them, lead by walking snwo storms.

I wonder if they have two annual harvests or something when they don't have winter for all those years. That would certainly have an impact on the economy. This should be explored. Some nerd should get to it.

That's about how it works yes, springs and autumns aparently always last around a year each while summers and winters are more random being in the 3-10 year range (the books start at the end of a ten-year long summer, the longest in living memory). There's a folk belief that a long summer means a long(er) winter but it's apparently not that easy to predict. During the first books there's a few talk of getting "one last" summer harvest in and then one or two autumn harvests if possible (though at this point people carrying torches are distressignly common). Also Winterfell (and presumably other northern castles) has "glass gardens" that can keep churning some food during winter (well they could until Bolton's Bastard set the things on fire at least). Also the regions of Dorne, the Vale and the Reach have been left out of the generalized destruction so far (it's mostly the Riverlands really) but it's not likely to last.

I suppose my thoughts ran to "why should I get emotionally invested in any of these characters? Apart from being generally unlikeable, if things keep going as they have been, they're all gonna die anyway".

You don't find the Starks likeable? Or Daenerys, Tyrion, Davos, Brienne, Jaime even?

As for stuff needing to hibernate for six years, maybe it's all part of the handwavy magic.

I mean probably, yeah, but it's still funny to me, like last week I have been told that quite a few species of plants can't reproduce properly if summer temperatures happen too early so maybe their stuff is just super strong?

EDIT: Also the Night's Watch has obscene amount of food stored inside the Wall, but they already started rationning because Lord steward Bowen Marsh thinks it'll barely last them the winter. And while he's an ass and not the sharpest knife in the shed, he's supposed to be very good at the whole "steward" business.

[danielxcutter]

Feel free to correct me, always trying to improve my third language ;)

Sorry... arrogant again?

Well, honestly that does explain a few things. What are the other two?

[gerryq]

If it's a recurring problem that people have the surplus resources to prepare for -- stores of fuel and grain (vermin control!), other dried food for trace nutritional needs -- it could be done. Part of what made me bounce out of the books was that it seemed fairly clear that people didn't make such preparations.

Some variation on it could even be justified in science fiction terms, if the world periodically passes through regions of space with a lot of dust that reduces the amount of incoming sunlight. People have been proposing such geoengineering as solutions for global warming.

A few SF works have explored planets where seasons last for generations - notable ones are Brian Aldiss's Helliconia series, and Paul Park's Paradise series. (Helliconia is the purer in SF terms, Park has a tendency towards postmodernism.)

[CriticalFailure]

Finally figured out why people call them quatloos...

[bunsen_h]

You don't find the Starks likeable? Or Daenerys, Tyrion, Davos, Brienne, Jaime even?

As I said, I only got a few chapters in. Jaime chucking the little kid off the roof, then going back to boinking his sister, was a notable factor there.

[GKBeetle]

Remember to tell the same thing to those that mocked Tolkien, please. Least I not feel, as a Tolkien fan, that someone was "talking me down".

Yes, to each his own. And they can criticize what I love, of course. I am glad they can, I hope they're glad to read my arguments and reply to them as well.

They used hyperbole and ridiculed Tolkien as a writer, I just shared my point of view in a similar tone and I stand by my point. Most modern entertainment production is trash: explosions, blood, cheap tricks to engage audience and crude innuendo accounts for 90% of the most successful fiction nowadays. Tolkien is original creation (even if derived, of course). He creates his own world, in his own literary language, at his own pace, rather than try to market a product to the masses.

There is a difference. They only criticized Tokien's writing. You, on the other hand, criticized those who disliked Tolkien's writing, or at least criticized those who prefer more modern entertainment. When you say something like...

Sad times... people will watch 23 completely inconsequential and formulaic superhero movies and consider it well-spent time, or 50 hours worh of faux-vikings series on TV, yet feels bored at beautiful and well elaborated descriptions taking a few lines that *do* have meaning, since establishing details to the world is important, especially from the point of view of the Hobbits.

...it sounds like you are criticizing the people who enjoy the superhero movies and faux-vikings series. It's like you are saying that people who can receive enjoyment out of those things are somehow inferior to you and your more cultured sensibilities. It does come off as very elitist, despite your arguments to the latter.

[Arathorne]

Finally figured out why people call them quatloos...

I always thought it was just a reference to Star Trek - DS9 currency? am I wrong to assume that?

[Worldsong]

There is a difference. They only criticized Tokien's writing. You, on the other hand, criticized those who disliked Tolkien's writing, or at least criticized those who prefer more modern entertainment. When you say something like...

...it sounds like you are criticizing the people who enjoy the superhero movies and faux-vikings series. It's like you are saying that people who can receive enjoyment out of those things are somehow inferior to you and your more cultured sensibilities. It does come off as very elitist, despite your arguments to the latter.

Basically this, yes. I don't think anyone here was speaking ill of Tolkien himself. There was just the common agreement that the guy's writing style can quickly feel excessive and a chore to read through.

Meanwhile from the other side it sounds like preferring a more straightforward type of entertainment speaks negatively about our overall cultural development and personality.

[bunsen_h]

I always thought it was just a reference to Star Trek - DS9 currency? am I wrong to assume that?

Classic Trek: "The Gamesters Of Triskelion". Quatloos were the units of currency that the disembodied brains -- the "Providers" -- who ran the gladiatorial games used.

[Grey Watcher]

Classic Trek: "The Gamesters Of Triskelion". Quatloos were the units of currency that the disembodied brains -- the "Providers" -- who ran the gladiatorial games used.

The analogy of course, being that quatloos had no value whatsoever other than as a medium for wagering. The Providers aren't part of a broader economy, whatever physical needs they have are met (and don't require further investment). Whether they win or lose a million quatloos, they're no better or worse off than before. Just like we're no better or worse off for our guesses about what's about to happen to Durkon and Minrah.

[KorvinStarmast]

As I said, I only got a few chapters in. Jaime chucking the little kid off the roof, then going back to boinking his sister, was a notable factor there.

He was going for the shock factor early on. I guess he succeeded a bit too well for your tastes.

How involved does Xykon think the gods are in this? I believe he knows that this started as a plan by The Dark One, but is he expecting other gods to be trying to negotiate with them? That might just catch his interest and make him ask more questions.

That's an intriguing thought, and I've no good answer.

I am inclined to disagree. While I thoroughly enjoy Tolkien's writings, partly, in fact, due to his attention to detail and his impressively consistent world building, I would assume that this likely stems from my affinity for such a style rather than from some objective necessity.

Tolkien was an author of fiction part time. His full time job was as Professor. Tom Clancy started as, IIRC, an insurance agent. Hunt for Red October changed all that. However, since JRRT's field of studies was both stories and language and their interaction (philology) perhaps the 'part time' bit is a bit of a stretch on my part.

Book: "The winter lasts around five years."
Me: "...How is ANYONE still alive on this continent?"

They head for Dorne like a plague of locusts? (Might explain why Dorne is a bit arid).

As for stuff needing to hibernate for six years, maybe it's all part of the handwavy magic.

Yep.

[Malacandra]

However, of course, while quatloos had no value beyond measuring how much one or another of the Providers had lost face relative to the others, those brains in jars didn't have much else to live for, and by that measure, quatloos were priceless.

Meanwhile I am beyond amused that the nannyware here apparently objects to naming Melville's book about the whale, and I expect it has a similar objection to my telling the room that "spotted ****" is a traditional English dessert, being a spongy suet pudding liberally studded with dried fruit and served hot with custard sauce.

edit: yep, totally called it

[Rogar Demonblud]

Tom Clancy started as, IIRC, an insurance agent. Hunt for Red October changed all that.

Not hardly. It was a few books later that Hollywood finally came calling and gave him a massive check for the movie rights for two of his books (Patriot Games and Hunt for Red October; he was trying to market Red Storm Rising since he had an interest in the game it was tied to). Incidentally, the hardcover rights for HfRO are still held by Naval Institute Press. Also, Clancy still owes them another book.

[KorvinStarmast]

Incidentally, the hardcover rights for HfRO are still held by Naval Institute Press. Also, Clancy still owes them another book.

I thought he was dead.
HfRO was a best seller, I think he did OK with money, but you are correct in that he became "an author" when the other books came out and hit the best seller lists right away. (Red Storm Rising wasn't that good, as a book).
(FWIW, my warfare specialty was ASW and HfRO was quite good as a techno thriller given when it was published)

[Rogar Demonblud]

Thank NIP for that. Apparently the editors, being former naval professionals, were quite brutal in keeping Clancy in line and not letting him get away with the stuff that riddled his later books. Something he was still pissy enough about to be sniping at them in...Red Rabbit, I think it was.

And yes, he's dead. The contract is still valid, at least until the advances are paid back.

[KorvinStarmast]

Thank NIP for that. Apparently the editors, being former naval professionals, were quite brutal in keeping Clancy in line and not letting him get away with the stuff that riddled his later books. Something he was still pissy enough about to be sniping at them in...Red Rabbit, I think it was.
And yes, he's dead.
The contract is still valid, at least until the advances are paid back.

Singger. I wonder if they tried going after his estate, or not bother due to bad PR ....

Yeah, some of his later stuff was ,uh, well, loose is my kindest descriptive. But quite successful, commercially.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I think he just let them keep taking his (small) residuals for Hunt to offset the advance, and his kids don't care because they'd rather focus on the video game and movie money.

[Fyraltari]

As I said, I only got a few chapters in. Jaime chucking the little kid off the roof, then going back to boinking his sister, was a notable factor there.

Well you’re not supposed to like him in the beginning of book 1 where he’s still a vilain. His redemption arc only starts in the middle of book 3.

[Mightymosy]

90% of everything is, has always been and will always be "trash" we just don't bother remembering most of the bad and mediocre stuff. Also pretty sure that back when Gilgamesh's Epic was first told, there were people complaining that their grandfathers had much better myths than they do and that most of the legends today are terrible.

I have the opposite opinion, Tolkien only really focused his worldbuilding on the few cultures he liked the most (First Age Elves, the Dunedains and that's about it) while all the others (the Ents, the other Men, the Orcs, ...) get pretty much nothing. There are huge tracks of the maps that are just empty. Apparently, Dale is the only noteworthy city north of the Rauros and west of the Blue Mountains in late Third Age. Nobody bothered resettling Eregion, either and all of Arnor save for the 4 villages of Bree and its surrounding plus the Shire (how did it even remained a village when it was at the meeting point of the two most important roads of the early Third Age?). The Northmen had apparently a huge confederation in Rhovanion but it completely vanished when the Rohirrim went South (save for the Beornings who have only a couple mentions total) and four out of the Seven Dwarf tribes never did anything worth mentionning either apparently.

And while the languages are very detailed, a lot of stuff just isn't. No currency is ever named for one.


Martin has a much more detailed worldbuilding with scores of lords, petty-lords, cities, villages and farms. But it is considerably wonkier too: the whole season nonsense is obvious, Slavers' Bay makes zero sense and neither do the Dothraki, Braavos somehow managed to become an important trading port despite being way outside of everybody's way and being hidden from foreigners for a long chunk of its history, travel times get really warped, the raven messaging system is way faster and more reliable than it has any right to be and the value of each currency wildly shifts from a chapter to the next. How and the unity of language across Westeros makes no goddam sense.


And yet I really enjoy both of these worldbuildings. They worlds feel much more alived and lived in to me than most SFF I read.

I can't comment on Game of Thrones because I don't read or watch it, but agree on LotR.
I didn't care much about the lack of worldbuilding, though. What really bothered me was that we never learned much about any of the rings, really.
Story is called "Lord of the Rings", right? How many of them do we see in action?

Or the dwarves, for that matter. Is there any other dwarve in the story other than Gimli?
And don't even get me started on females

[Fyraltari]

I can't comment on Game of Thrones because I don't read or watch it, but agree on LotR.
I didn't care much about the lack of worldbuilding, though. What really bothered me was that we never learned much about any of the rings, really.
Story is called "Lord of the Rings", right? How many of them do we see in action?

Four. The Master-Ring and the Three: Galadriel's, Elrond's and Gandalf's.
We do learn quite a bit, though. The Nazgûl were all given one, who were eventually returned to Sauron, the seven dwarf kings all got one too, four of which were destroyed (at least one by dragon-fire) and the other three returned to Sauron (who he promises to King Daïn in exchange for intel on Bilbo (and if you believe that, I've got a bridge to Tol Eressëa to sell to you).

Or the dwarves, for that matter. Is there any other dwarve in the story other than Gimli?

His dad Gloin's got a nice cameo.

And don't even get me started on females

Get you started on what, now? Is that a tribe of elves?

[Goblin_Priest]

More females than a lot of other groups, and that's quite telling of his interests in his world, I suppose.

And indeed, I too always found it kind of frustrating that books called The Lord of the Rings says so little about the rings, be it the One Ring, or all of the others.

And how can so many people (or goblins) live off of caves? Where does the food come from?

[Bilbo Baggins]

How involved does Xykon think the gods are in this? I believe he knows that this started as a plan by The Dark One, but is he expecting other gods to be trying to negotiate with them? That might just catch his interest and make him ask more questions.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

He knows at least that the snarl destroyed the first world the gods made and that it was able to kill gods. He may not think that the gods are directly involved in the Plan but he at least knows that the snarl has deity-level power.

Also looking back at SoD, I realize that even back then Redcloak explicitly said he's willing to risk the world getting destroyed if it means the Dark One would get a say in the making of the next one.

[bunsen_h]

And don't even get me started on females

My theory is that all Dwarves in Tolkien's world have facial hair, etc., and their language is gender-neutral so their translations into Common are a bit wonky. As Pratchett suggested, the matter of finding out what sex another Dwarf is is a matter of considerable delicacy.

All this to suggest that Gimli was actually female, and that it was quite a shock for Legolas when he finally got her clothes off.

And how can so many people (or goblins) live off of caves? Where does the food come from?

Mushrooms, of course... But Tolkien does explicitly (if briefly) mention the vast slave-worked fields under Sauron's control, in the south of Mordor, and the system of roads that let goods and slaves be moved through that region and tributary lands to the east. He was aware of that logistical problem and felt that it should be called out.

[Quizatzhaderac]

SO in my head cannon, SoF&I has "major season" and "minor seasons". The years long seasons they talk about being the major seasons, sort of like a quicker version of natural climate change. Minor seasons are like earth, but maybe a bit less extreme.

This explains a few things:
How they know what a year is.
How the north can have summer snows, but still have crops.
How the area north of the wall isn't a glacier.

[Jaziggy]

My theory is that all Dwarves in Tolkien's world have facial hair, etc., and their language is gender-neutral so their translations into Common are a bit wonky. As Pratchett suggested, the matter of finding out what sex another Dwarf is is a matter of considerable delicacy.

All this to suggest that Gimli was actually female, and that it was quite a shock for Legolas when he finally got her clothes off.



Mushrooms, of course... But Tolkien does explicitly (if briefly) mention the vast slave-worked fields under Sauron's control, in the south of Mordor, and the system of roads that let goods and slaves be moved through that region and tributary lands to the east. He was aware of that logistical problem and felt that it should be called out.

I firmly support the nonbinary dwarf theory. Bad translation of a non-gendered dwarven language.

[KorvinStarmast]

And indeed, I too always found it kind of frustrating that books called The Lord of the Rings says so little about the rings, be it the One Ring, or all of the others.

The Lord (Sauron) was the BBEG to end all BBEG's. The rings were but one of his contributions to what made the world and the story what it was. It could have as easily been called "The Lord of the Nazgul" and worked, but nobody knew what a Nazgul was before reading that story. Everyone knows what a Ring is.

And how can so many people (or goblins) live off of caves? Where does the food come from?

Mushrooms and such. Worms. blind fish from underwater lakes, like what Gollum liked to eat.

All this to suggest that Gimli was actually female, and that it was quite a shock for Legolas when he finally got her clothes off.

Laughed, I did.

[bunsen_h]

The Lord (Sauron) was the BBEG to end all BBEG's.

Except that Sauron was actually just Morgoth's lieutenant. Second-banana stuff. Kind of like how Shelob, the spider in the lair in the mountains in Mordor, was just a relatively minor child of Ungoliant, the real spider monster. You know, back in the bad old days.

[Malacandra]

I firmly support the nonbinary dwarf theory. Bad translation of a non-gendered dwarven language.

How very $CurrentYear. But "Of the Dwarves" explains that "they had few women", which by implication tells you that they were as gendered as the rest of the Children of Eru. Of those, some weren't interested in marrying because they had craft-work to concentrate on, while others had hoped for a mate that they were unable to get and refused to marry any other. This led to the dwarves breeding well below replacement rate, especially after their losses in various wars and to dragon attacks, and led to their eventual extinction (the sub-race known asNoegyth Nibin or "Petty-Dwarves" had already died out in the First Age).

[Personification]

Get you started on what, now? Is that a tribe of elves?

I mean... technically, but it's more the reverse. (According to modern fantasy stereotypes.)

[diplomancer]

You don't find the Starks likeable? Or Daenerys, Tyrion, Davos, Brienne, Jaime even?

The Starks are universally stupid, with the exception of Arya (and Jon, who's just naive, but then he's not a Stark). Daenerys is a horrible tyrant and this was very obvious from the early stages. Brienne is bland, James is interesting (but NOT likeable). Tyrion is fun and Davos is, at least in the books published so far, the only intelligent good character over 18 years old.

My friends insisted I read the books, claiming it was "Tolkien for adults", and so I did, but they are pretty awful (and, at best, Tolkien for horny teenagers). It's a tale full of sound and fury, signifying nothing (but Martin is definitely NOT an idiot)

I can't comment on Game of Thrones because I don't read or watch it, but agree on LotR.
I didn't care much about the lack of worldbuilding, though. What really bothered me was that we never learned much about any of the rings, really.
Story is called "Lord of the Rings", right? How many of them do we see in action?

Or the dwarves, for that matter. Is there any other dwarve in the story other than Gimli?
And don't even get me started on females

Well, LotR is a sequel to a book with THIRTEEN dwarves, driving the whole plot forward. Tolkien probably felt that was enough Dwarvish representation, and was ok with toning down in LotR.

Except that Sauron was actually just Morgoth's lieutenant. Second-banana stuff. Kind of like how Shelob, the spider in the lair in the mountains in Mordor, was just a relatively minor child of Ungoliant, the real spider monster. You know, back in the bad old days.

Sauron was Morgoth's servant, yes. But he was FAR more successful than Morgoth in actually ruling over (and corrupting) the children of Ilúvatar. Morgoth, being the most powerful created being of all, He who arises in Might spent most of his power corrupting Arda, and was barely able to defeat a ragtag alliance of Elves and Men. Sauron defeated the Valar (who had to "cheat" by calling on Eru). He truly is the BBEG of a BBEG but you have to look at all Tolkien's writings to realize that (specially the Akkalabeth, but others as well)