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2020-10-02, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1215 - The Discussion Thread
Also notably, nobody has said that LotR or the Hobbit are confusing.
The main plot and themes aren't too difficult to grasp. Appreciating ever last detail is a daunting challenge, but that's not what separates those you like the stories from those who don't.
We can analyze LotR as being to things:
1) The relaying of a plot
2) The portrait of a world.
Those two things complement each other, but Tolkien clearly valued the second much more than the standard novelist. Tolkien spends four pages talking about trees, not as filler, but because he has four pages worth of things to say about trees.
There are things to be said in favor of literature with a laser focus, but LotR is clearly the kind of story that stops to smell the roses.
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2020-10-02, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: OOTS #1215 - The Discussion Thread
I only read them very long ago, when I was fairly young, but I do recall the descriptions being very tediously long at parts. I came upon an analyis more recently, though, that explained one such passage, and the messages it was conveying. It made sense, and perhaps I wouldn't find it so dreary if I were to read it again. Poetic, really, with the walls of text actually building monuments of subtext.
Attention LotR fans
Spoiler: LotRThe scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.
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2020-10-02, 11:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
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Re: OOTS #1215 - The Discussion Thread
It's entirely possible for literature to be both tedious and worthwhile, and avoiding tedium is not a universal goal. While many might find themselves laboring with Tolkien's style, I would be rather surprised if most of them think Tolkien should have gone about it differently.
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2020-10-03, 07:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1215 - The Discussion Thread
LotR is pure fiction, though, it doesn't have a lot to "say" outside of its own universe. It's entertainment. If you find it tedious, you aren't enjoying it and it hasn't fulfilled its purpose. I wouldn't recommend someone slog through the books just for the sake of having read them.
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2020-10-03, 07:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-03, 08:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1215 - The Discussion Thread
Oh! I have my own two cents!
Entertainment is a considerable factor for much of literature. It keeps the audience around long enough to portray the message, if there is one. And even if there isn't a specific one, it reflects the desires and thoughts the author has about the real world and thus different works resonate differently with different people.Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2020-10-03, 09:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-03, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1215 - The Discussion Thread
My first try, for a high school assignment, at Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury was both tedious and frustrating. Thankfully, I had a good teacher to help me over the rough spots. When we read it in college for a literature class, the experience was completely different for two reasons. One, I had read it before, and two I had become better at handling complex literature by that time. I was better able to appreciate what Faulkner was doing at that point.
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2020-10-03, 02:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
Re: OOTS #1215 - The Discussion Thread
It's also entirely possible for literature to be compelling in some aspects and tiresome in others, with neither requiring the other. Being great does not require being perfect, with anyone who criticizes the imperfections being just an impudent knave who's too stupid to recognize greatness.
Les Miserables is widely considered to be one of the greatest works of literature - but Victor Hugo's flaws were sometimes just as great as his strengths. One telling example: Because his beloved cousin Marie had taken the veil, he interrupted the story at a dramatic high point for fifty pages to first describe the details of life in a semi-fictional convent and then personally rail against the idea of convents. His editor begged him to take it out, but he refused.
If you're fascinated by convents and can't get enough of Hugo talking about them, more power to you. To each their own. But don't tell me with a straight face that if I find it tiresome (but read it anyway), I just don't understand how great Les Miserables is. Or that it's some sort of sin to think he could have pared it down with no loss to the story.
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2020-10-03, 05:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1215 - The Discussion Thread
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2020-10-03, 05:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-03, 06:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1215 - The Discussion Thread
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Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-10-04, 04:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1215 - The Discussion Thread
Coupla people seem to be imputing things my previous comment did not say. Since I didn't say them, I don't really have any interest in responding.
While I don't think reading for the sake of having read is a worthwhile reason to recommend any particular writing, I find this 'pure fiction' characterization to be far off the mark. Tolkien was writing (among other things) a playground for his languages, a mythology for his country, a reflection on his religion and his wartime experience - and yes, also stories that would entertain his children and sell in bookstores. It's not wrong to read LOTR for entertainment, or to find it less than satisfying on that score. But denying other reasons for it to be read, other things it has to offer, just seems incredibly reductive to me.
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2020-10-04, 04:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-04, 04:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1215 - The Discussion Thread
{scrubbed}
Last edited by Peelee; 2020-10-04 at 09:19 AM.
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2020-10-04, 07:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1215 - The Discussion Thread
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2020-10-05, 11:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1215 - The Discussion Thread