OOTS #1215 - The Discussion Thread

[Venger]

I guess it depends on if he was listening in on the conversation or not.

If Xykon was at the bottom of the ravine, would he have been able to hear most of it?

As good an opportunity as it would be for him to call back to the +8 bonus to listen checks, I don't think so.

Xykon's too arrogant to bother eavesdropping on underlings. If he'd had a problem with the meeting he'd have swanned in and demanded to know what was going on. If he's just getting here now, it's unlikely he heard the exact details of the conversation.

I think the dwarves are going to flee into a door marked with an X, but it'll be one of the extra ones mitd marked so will still have monsters in it. Team evil won't follow them in due to Durkon's plot armor but will post a guard outside in case they come out, and Durkon will use word of recall or something else to get them out either before or after a few random encounters, or maybe getting some exposition from the dungeon denizens on what Xykon is looking for and where it is.

[Wraithfighter]

I'll take that bet.
Because yeah, Xykon's smarter than he likes to let on.
But if he knew what the Plan really was he would absolutely not be helping. If he already knew what the ritual did he wouldn't have asked Tsukiko to figure it out - that only tells us that he's suspicious. We know he doesn't trust Redcloak, but if he knew that this ritual he's been trying to perform for ~30 years, the ritual he

Spoiler: SOD

Show

died for

, has absolutely nothing to do with his goals, Redcloak would be either dead or wishing he was.

Hm, fair. Let me scale that back a bit and say that he's generally aware that Durkon's here to negotiate with Redcloak to get the goblin to flip sides, but doesn't know all of the details (hence why he might be trying to listen in on the meeting).

I just find his appearance right when Durkon and Minrah were escaping to be a bit too much of a coincidence is all. Especially with the set-up of Oona having been listening too, and not intervening.

[Clistenes]

If they ever transition to 5e Xykon is gonna have a blast, literally... no more layered protections making Clerics untouchable!

[Bunny Commando]

yes, when fighting a prepared spellcaster, it is generally wise to open with some dispelling. it's more reliable than guessing. especially since xykon has superb dispelling which should work wonders

also, i believe this fight is, among other things, meant to show that the oots are no longer badly outmatched by xykon as they used to be.

The keyword here is "Wise". IMHO Xykon has been always rash, trying to brute force his way through most encounters - e.g. the Ghost-Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard. Most probably he's being dismissive of Durkon and Minrah while the OotS is learning the value of preparedness.

[Metastachydium]

As good an opportunity as it would be for him to call back to the +8 bonus to listen checks, I don't think so.

Xykon's too arrogant to bother eavesdropping on underlings. If he'd had a problem with the meeting he'd have swanned in and demanded to know what was going on. If he's just getting here now, it's unlikely he heard the exact details of the conversation.

And it would not matter much if he did. This came up in previous threads as well, and the thing is, Redcloak can simply tell Xykon that a lackey of that Greenhilt guy tried to trick him into abandoning the Plan (which he did not quite seem to understand) via posing as „an emissary of the gods” presenting a „peace offer”, but he didn't buy it and cast Implosion on him. Redcloak did not say anything incriminating during the negotiations with Durkon.

[KorvinStarmast]

If they ever transition to 5e Xykon is gonna have a blast, literally... no more layered protections making Clerics untouchable!

True enough, however Rich some time ago (IIRC some time during 4e) made the observation that he's not going to change editions in the strip (and he gave some reasons). He did an interesting take on the 3.xe and 4e differences in a story in the Snips, Snails and Dragon Tails collection, but I don't think he has ported any 4 or 5 stuff into the main strip.

[danielxcutter]

True enough, however Rich some time ago (IIRC some time during 4e) made the observation that he's not going to change editions in the strip (and he gave some reasons). He did an interesting take on the 3.xe and 4e differences in a story in the Snips, Snails and Dragon Tails collection, but I don't think he has ported any 4 or 5 stuff into the main strip.

On the other hand, Sorcerers also take a pretty big hit compared to 3.Xe as well. Pretty much all the full caster classes have.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm reminded of the cleric duel with Redcloak and Some Dude way back in the day. "Man, clerics are just the worst".

[danielxcutter]

I'm reminded of the cleric duel with Redcloak and Some Dude way back in the day. "Man, clerics are just the worst".

You mean the high priest of the Twelve Gods? I remember that one too...

[Shining Wrath]

You mean the high priest of the Twelve Gods? I remember that one too...

That's the one.

Also, I notice Xykon took damage from Durkon's attack. That's hopeful.

[danielxcutter]

That's the one.

Also, I notice Xykon took damage from Durkon's attack. That's hopeful.

Considering Xykon almost has twice the levels than Durkon and the latter hasn't used Divine Power, I'm guessing that was a nat 20 or somewhere close to that.

[HandofShadows]

A hammer to the face can hurt.

[Riftwolf]

Considering Xykon almost has twice the levels than Durkon and the latter hasn't used Divine Power, I'm guessing that was a nat 20 or somewhere close to that.

Not necessarily. AC doesn't scale with level, and Xykon might not have buffed up first. I'd put Durkon in favour of hitting Xykon, and his hammer bypasses damage reduction for lichs (except for Xykon resisting the lightning effect) so he'd have a decent chance to do damage too.
The fact Xykon probably has somewhere around 150+hp is what would keep him alive in a fight more than his Armor Class.

[danielxcutter]

Not necessarily. AC doesn't scale with level, and Xykon might not have buffed up first. I'd put Durkon in favour of hitting Xykon, and his hammer bypasses damage reduction for lichs (except for Xykon resisting the lightning effect) so he'd have a decent chance to do damage too.
The fact Xykon probably has somewhere around 150+hp is what would keep him alive in a fight more than his Armor Class.

I headcanon Durkon's new hammer as a Hammer of Thunderbolts(sized properly for dwarves of course), and while that means he probably has at least a +6 to Strength from the belt and gloves it also means that it's not nearly enough of a bonus to reliably hit Xykon. He's got Epic Mage Armor and that spell lasts 24 hours. Between that, the Ring of Protection he presumably has to deflect a Disintegration, and the natural armor from being a lich, it's entirely possible for Xykon to have more than 40 AC. Probably not much higher if at all, but still.

[Riftwolf]

I headcanon Durkon's new hammer as a Hammer of Thunderbolts(sized properly for dwarves of course), and while that means he probably has at least a +6 to Strength from the belt and gloves it also means that it's not nearly enough of a bonus to reliably hit Xykon. He's got Epic Mage Armor and that spell lasts 24 hours. Between that, the Ring of Protection he presumably has to deflect a Disintegration, and the natural armor from being a lich, it's entirely possible for Xykon to have more than 40 AC. Probably not much higher if at all, but still.

Having looked up Epic Mage Armour, yeh, if that spells running, Xykon would be crazy broken*. However we don't know what monsters are in the Dungeon and whether they have some kind of dispelling effect, or whether he casts it every day (he's not made of epic spell slots. If I've understood the epic spell rules correctly, he has at least 2, probably 3, 4 absolute max) and prefers offence over defence (which kind of raises the question; how did O-Chul learn he had EMA?)
* technically I should say 'crazy broken vs non-epic' but that feels like saying 'he gasped, taking air into his lungs to oxygenate his blood'. Its a bit redundant.

[danielxcutter]

Having looked up Epic Mage Armour, yeh, if that spells running, Xykon would be crazy broken*. However we don't know what monsters are in the Dungeon and whether they have some kind of dispelling effect, or whether he casts it every day (he's not made of epic spell slots. If I've understood the epic spell rules correctly, he has at least 2, probably 3, 4 absolute max) and prefers offence over defence (which kind of raises the question; how did O-Chul learn he had EMA?)
* technically I should say 'crazy broken vs non-epic' but that feels like saying 'he gasped, taking air into his lungs to oxygenate his blood'. Its a bit redundant.

Presumably O-Chul saw him buffing or something. For a caster like Xykon it's probably like brushing his teeth.

[Shining Wrath]

Having looked up Epic Mage Armour, yeh, if that spells running, Xykon would be crazy broken*. However we don't know what monsters are in the Dungeon and whether they have some kind of dispelling effect, or whether he casts it every day (he's not made of epic spell slots. If I've understood the epic spell rules correctly, he has at least 2, probably 3, 4 absolute max) and prefers offence over defence (which kind of raises the question; how did O-Chul learn he had EMA?)
* technically I should say 'crazy broken vs non-epic' but that feels like saying 'he gasped, taking air into his lungs to oxygenate his blood'. Its a bit redundant.

So Durkon probably has BAB of +9, plus strength modifiers and bonuses from the hammer itself.

Yeah, if Xykon has EMA on he needs a crit.

[Personification]

Having looked up Epic Mage Armour, yeh, if that spells running, Xykon would be crazy broken*. However we don't know what monsters are in the Dungeon and whether they have some kind of dispelling effect, or whether he casts it every day (he's not made of epic spell slots. If I've understood the epic spell rules correctly, he has at least 2, probably 3, 4 absolute max) and prefers offence over defence (which kind of raises the question; how did O-Chul learn he had EMA?)
* technically I should say 'crazy broken vs non-epic' but that feels like saying 'he gasped, taking air into his lungs to oxygenate his blood'. Its a bit redundant.

*O-Chul escapes fire-breathing scorpion enclosure and swings a severed stinger at Xykon*
O-Chul: Smite Evil!
SFX: clink
O-Chul:
: Researching Epic Mage Armor and making a poorly built scorpion enclosure were worth it for the look on your face alone! Anyway, you know the drill. Hold Person.

[The MunchKING]

My gut tells me that the Spellsplinter Maneuver will work on Xykon, at least once.

Narratively, it feels right that Roy will get a chance to use it against Xykon after almost 800 pages since their last rematch. Given all the focus we've had on Roy, the Greenhilt Sword, the Weapon of Legacy, and learning the Spellsplinter from Horace to fulfill the Blood Oath, it would feel pretty weird for Xykon to fully No-Sell it.

Of course, I don't expect Xykon to be immediately thrashed by it, and I'm sure he'll have some tricks up his sleeve to keep the fight going. But it'll almost certainly work against him at least once, at a key moment.

Especially how much trouble he had making Concentration checks against the LAST group that could actually hurt him with melee.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Sometimes Xykon is a total bro, no questions asked about why they're there, just what damage types haven't been tried yet.

With regards to Xykon being a bro etc
No he isn’t
He is cruel and vicious and likes to pretend he doesn’t notice stuff when he actually does. All in order to lull his allies into security and then casually show he knew their secret plans all along and smash them apart. Breaking their spirits is an added bonus.

Okay everyone, I know this is difficult, but our forum's shtick requires us to derail into arguing about what is or isn't a "bro" according to third party source books.

So maybe "bro" is a prestige class or three somewhere? Are any of those compatible with sorcerer? With chaos (I figure there's probably a monkish one like brotherhood on the long-short dragon)?

Or maybe it's an alignment? Chaotic-evil-bro? If we assume bro-ness is independent of goodness and lawfulness then I guess a jerk who presents a false image of camaraderie could be a bro.

[Metastachydium]

Okay everyone, I know this is difficult, but our forum's shtick requires us to derail into arguing about what is or isn't a "bro" according to third party source books.

So maybe "bro" is a prestige class or three somewhere? Are any of those compatible with sorcerer? With chaos (I figure there's probably a monkish one like brotherhood on the long-short dragon)?

Or maybe it's an alignment? Chaotic-evil-bro? If we assume bro-ness is independent of goodness and lawfulness then I guess a jerk who presents a false image of camaraderie could be a bro.

It is a Charisma-based psionic prestige class, obviously.

[gerryq]

Bet $20 that Xykon already knows why they're there.

Xykon's smarter than he likes to let on, that's one of the things that can make him so dangerous... and that +8 racial bonus to listen checks can have all sorts of uses...

Could be like:

Xykon: "Hey, didn't you want to keep one of them alive?"

Redcloak: "Nah, doesn't matter"

Xykon: "I'm interested now. Why were those guys here anyway?"

[Worldsong]

The problem with Xykon is that while he's definitely smart I don't think his usual attitude is faked. So I have a hard time telling when he's playing dumb and when he genuinely doesn't care enough to pay attention or inquire further.

[Shining Wrath]

The problem with Xykon is that while he's definitely smart I don't think his usual attitude is faked. So I have a hard time telling when he's playing dumb and when he genuinely doesn't care enough to pay attention or inquire further.

He's a sorcerer, not a wizard. Thinking hard is not his thing; obtaining power by sheer force of charisma is how he rolls.

So his INT score is probably lower than Redcloak's or Roy's. But his desire for power is immense. That's why he likes Meteor Swarm; it's not a smart spell, it's a brute force "Hulk SMASH!" spell.

[Riftwolf]

He's a sorcerer, not a wizard. Thinking hard is not his thing; obtaining power by sheer force of charisma is how he rolls.

So his INT score is probably lower than Redcloak's or Roy's. But his desire for power is immense. That's why he likes Meteor Swarm; it's not a smart spell, it's a brute force "Hulk SMASH!" spell.

I disagree about his INT score being lower. He acts like its lower, but at the end of SoD he proved that just because he doesn't play oh-so-clever Machiavellian games doesn't mean he can't see when you try them. He just dgaf.

[danielxcutter]

I disagree about his INT score being lower. He acts like its lower, but at the end of SoD he proved that just because he doesn't play oh-so-clever Machiavellian games doesn't mean he can't see when you try them. He just dgaf.

Not as high as them doesn't mean much. Roy at least could have been... well probably anything besides a Rogue, considering his stats. Redcloak's probably even smarter.

[understatement]

I'd spitball that SOD's ending shows more of Xykon's charisma (in a nasty, manipulative way) than intelligence (not saying he's dumb, though).

[wumpus]

See also: the LotR movies. In FotR, Gandalf cinemacktionally^* loses his sword Glamdring early on in his fight with the Balrog, on the bridge over the chasm. In the follow-up scene in TTT, both still falling, he has caught up with it. "You shall not pass grade 9 physics!"

---

_{* portmanteau of: cinematic, Jackson, action}

It isn't just the Jackson universe. Elves live on a flat [Middle] Earth, allowing Legolas's "elven eyes" to peer over the horizon (at least on plains). And given Tolkien was trying to strive against "modern literature" (defined by everything after and including Chaucer), I doubt he wanted accurate physics in Middle Earth anyway.

Given what we know of how the gods decided on the laws of the stickverse, accurate physics was the least of their concerns.

[skim172]

I have only one criticism of the art in OOTS - and that's Xykon's jaw when he opens his mouth.

It's the way his lower jaw is connected with his upper jaw at the back teeth, with those back teeth remaining touching together. But the human jaw is hinged further back than that. When you open your mouth, your back teeth don't remain together. It's actually physically impossible, no matter how you try (unless you dislocate your jaw) (please don't try that).

So when Xykon talks, it gives me this weird impression like he's struggling to unclench his teeth which are wired together - or perhaps that he has only one side of his jaw open (which you also shouldn't be able to do, unless you have TMJ symptoms; talk to your doctor).

It happened after the art upgrade, and I think it's because of the way Xykon has always been drawn. If you look at Xykon pre-upgrade, his bottom jaw just sort of floats in mid-air when he opens his mouth. With an art upgrade, that might been judged a bit too cartoonish. But on the other hand, Xykon has never been drawn with the back part of the mandible connecting his upper and lower jaw - and maybe adding one changed his look too drastically. This could be a compromise.

I don't know how others feel about it. Myself, I can't help but notice it when Xykon is on the page, because I keep thinking he's about to go in for desperately-needed maxillofacial surgery - and it's hard to view him as threatening that way.

I wouldn't mind if it went back to the old style of just having his jaw float in midair. I think that would still fit with the art style.

[Xlsfd]

That would, of course, require Xykon to think they are worth burning Superb Dispelling on, especially when he might have to delve into the dungeons later that day or fight the whole crew later (including that 'a-lister' elf). Or, if he's already done the dungeon delving for that day, if he didn't already expend it.

As far as I know, Xykon is an epic-level (21+) lich who has only ever taken levels in Sorcerer. In addition, as far as I know, while Sorcerers may only know a certain number of spells and also only get to cast a limited number of spells per day, they don't have to prepare their spells in advance like wizards or clerics.