OOTS #1215 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

As far as I know, Xykon is an epic-level (21+) lich who has only ever taken levels in Sorcerer. In addition, as far as I know, while Sorcerers may only know a certain number of spells and also only get to cast a limited number of spells per day, they don't have to prepare their spells in advance like wizards or clerics.

Epic spells are odd, but Sorcerers can cast their Epic spells spontaneously like their normal spells. So if he has an Epic spell slot left, he could use it.

[hamishspence]

As far as I know, Xykon is an epic-level (21+) lich who has only ever taken levels in Sorcerer. In addition, as far as I know, while Sorcerers may only know a certain number of spells and also only get to cast a limited number of spells per day, they don't have to prepare their spells in advance like wizards or clerics.

True. Even their epic spells, can be "cast out of any open epic slot".

[Werbaer]

It isn't just the Jackson universe. Elves live on a flat [Middle] Earth [...]

Since the downfall of Numenor, the Tolkien earth isn't flat anymore.

[Riftwolf]

Since the downfall of Numenor, the Tolkien earth isn't flat anymore.

From what I understand, that's how the mortal world works. However elves are immortal and can sail their ships on a tangent from the surface to reach the Undying Lands, and a recent reddit thread posited that Legolas could see beyond the horizon to see Edoras before Aragorn or Gimli could, suggesting elf-eyes ignore the curvature of the world as well.

Not as high as them doesn't mean much. Roy at least could have been... well probably anything besides a Rogue, considering his stats. Redcloak's probably even smarter.

Pre-lichdom, Redcloak was probably the smarter of the two. Post-lichdom, I think Xykons smarter, but also smart enough to pretend he's as dumb as before.

[bunsen_h]

I have only one criticism of the art in OOTS - and that's Xykon's jaw when he opens his mouth.

It's the way his lower jaw is connected with his upper jaw at the back teeth, with those back teeth remaining touching together. But the human jaw is hinged further back than that. When you open your mouth, your back teeth don't remain together. It's actually physically impossible, no matter how you try (unless you dislocate your jaw) (please don't try that).

I see the jaws as separated, with a few cervical vertebrae showing between them.

[Deliverance]

It isn't just the Jackson universe. Elves live on a flat [Middle] Earth, allowing Legolas's "elven eyes" to peer over the horizon (at least on plains). And given Tolkien was trying to strive against "modern literature" (defined by everything after and including Chaucer), I doubt he wanted accurate physics in Middle Earth anyway.

Given what we know of how the gods decided on the laws of the stickverse, accurate physics was the least of their concerns.

Middle Earth started out flat, but one of the consequences of the drowning of Numenor in S.A.3319 according to Akallabeth in the Silmarillion was the rounding of the world. Since Legolas was born T.A.87, he only ever lived on a round world.

[Shining Wrath]

Hypothesis:

On their way back to rejoin the rest of the Order, Durkon and Minrah will find the corpses of O-chul and Lien. Per Roy the OotS has the necessary resources to resurrect them.

I'm assuming Xykon breaks off the pursuit as uninteresting (as far as he knows, two random dwarves) until he's spoken to Redcloak - at which point we're going to get a check on Redcloak's Bluff versus Xykon's Sense Motive, as I very much doubt Redcloak wants to say what Durkon was doing in the camp. Again, Xykon is very strongly motivated to avoid death and eternity in one of the lower planes (no kidding) and would be severely displeased if he learned that destruction of the world, including him, was allegedly on the table. And Redcloak knows that he really can't control what Oona says, so he needs to make the conversation quick.

"After them, they're getting away" is likely to be met with "And I care because?".

[Ave]

I don't think there's a Protection from Street Pizza spell.

For clerics
3e: Plane shift, Etherealness
5e: Etherealness

[Dycedarg]

Implosion is also a normal level 9 cleric spell, so it's possible Redcloak could have prepared it in an ordinary spell slot as well.

In Disintegrate's case - it's true that clerics can only ever get it as a domain spell, but it is possible to prepare a lower-level spell in a higher-level slot; there's a small possibility that Redcloak wanted more direct-damage spells and prepared a second Disintegrate in his eighth-level domain slot (though I wouldn't consider it likely).

I'd consider it exceedingly unlikely. He's playing support for the dungeon crawling. With Xykon around there really isn't much reason for him to have any direct damage prepared at all.

[Ghosty]

...Redcloak knows that he really can't control what Oona says, so he needs to make the conversation quick.

"After them, they're getting away" is likely to be met with "And I care because?".

What level of Cleric is likely to be that heavily warded, were this a wandering monster kind of random encounter? Is that level of Cleric enough of a challenge to tickle Xykon's curiosity, or possibly give him XP?

First part of your post, why would O-Chul and Lien be dead? Seems sloppy on the part of the Unseen Duo to let them get killed, and if the Duo wanted both paladins killed, might there have been easier ways to go about it?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Much easier than trying to get a poison through O-Chul's CON. Plus, there is narratively no reason for the Giant to waste time on having them taken alive if their next appearance is as corpses.

[KorvinStarmast]

Given what we know of how the gods decided on the laws of the stickverse, accurate physics was the least of their concerns.

Physics has a role, which is to go and cry in the corner when Vaarsuvius gets all shiggy ...

Since the downfall of Numenor, the Tolkien earth isn't flat anymore.

Much to the dismay of pirates everywhere ...

However elves are immortal and can sail their ships on a tangent from the surface to reach the Undying Lands, and a recent reddit thread posited that Legolas could see beyond the horizon to see Edoras before Aragorn or Gimli could, suggesting elf-eyes ignore the curvature of the world as well.

While that may be right, I don't think Tolkien ideated it that way. To him it's just "elves can see far because they are my Mary Sues..."

Middle Earth started out flat, but one of the consequences of the drowning of Numenor in S.A.3319 according to Akallabeth in the Silmarillion was the rounding of the world. Since Legolas was born T.A.87, he only ever lived on a round world.

And he still sucks at making a proper fried egg ...

Plus, there is narratively no reason for the Giant to waste time on having them taken alive if their next appearance is as corpses.

We have a winner.

[WanderingMist]

From what I understand, that's how the mortal world works. However elves are immortal and can sail their ships on a tangent from the surface to reach the Undying Lands, and a recent reddit thread posited that Legolas could see beyond the horizon to see Edoras before Aragorn or Gimli could, suggesting elf-eyes ignore the curvature of the world as well.

Elves are flat-earthers.

While that may be right, I don't think Tolkien ideated it that way. To him it's just "elves can see far because they are my Mary Sues..."

I don't think them being treated as the superior race makes them Mary Sues. After all, Mary Sues can do no wrong, and look what happened with Feanor. Or even just their whole thing against dwarves in general. They're more likely to be Mary Sues, but they're not going to be them by default.

[Dion]

I don't think them being treated as the superior race makes them Mary Sues.

Bilbo was Tolkien’s Mary Sue.

Fat old dude who got to hang out with elves and eat good food and translate old books, and then he goes off to an afterlife where he can keep doing that forever?

Yeah, Tolkien wanted to *BE* Bilbo 100x more than any shipper ever wanted to be in Picard / Riker sammy.

[Alcore]

Bet $20 that Xykon already knows why they're there.

Xykon's smarter than he likes to let on, that's one of the things that can make him so dangerous... and that +8 racial bonus to listen checks can have all sorts of uses...

Fun Facts;

Listening to two people talking is a DC0 check. it is -1 for each 10ft of distance. If we assume he started out at wis10* in adult life he doesn't need to make a check to listen in on a conversation for 200 feet. If he is distracted minus 50ft, if there is a door minus 50ft. a wall with no door drops it down to 50ft (a rough length of a sleeper birth big rig truck and trailer is ~72ft)

As long as he has line of sight with no distractions he can hear a conversation from nearly a football field and a quarter. Him and another Lich can make idle conversation at that distance. A battle can be heard at 300 feet or 250ft if distracted and no barriers.

*

Start of darkness shows him as old or venerable (+2 or 3Wis)
Lich also gives a +2wis
Also +8 listen.

also +8 on Hide, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks making him a low-to-mid level rogue/investigator on natural talent alone.

this all assumes he never put ranks in listen...

[Riftwolf]

Fun Facts;

Listening to two people talking is a DC0 check. it is -1 for each 10ft of distance. If we assume he started out at wis10* in adult life he doesn't need to make a check to listen in on a conversation for 200 feet.

Could you show your working on this? Because I'm looking at the Listen and Lich rules and honestly can't see how you've reached this conclusion.
Base WIS 10+Venerable+Lich=Listen +10 without skill ranks, if I read this right, meaning Xykon wouldn't need to roll to make DC11- checks, which would be listening to a conversation from 10ft or hearing someone talking from 110ft. If he was taking 10 (ie someone was talking to him and he was aware of it) he'd get up to 200ft to hear that person speaking to him (but not necessarily understand the words), which from my experience of calling people over fields sounds about right. To have him reliably understand what the other person is saying would have a range of 100ft. I don't think Listen has the 'take 20' option, although the image of two lichs yelling at each other across a football pitch for a minute each time is vaguely amusing.

[Wraithfighter]

Could you show your working on this? Because I'm looking at the Listen and Lich rules and honestly can't see how you've reached this conclusion.
Base WIS 10+Venerable+Lich=Listen +10 without skill ranks, if I read this right, meaning Xykon wouldn't need to roll to make DC11- checks, which would be listening to a conversation from 10ft or hearing someone talking from 110ft. If he was taking 10 (ie someone was talking to him and he was aware of it) he'd get up to 200ft to hear that person speaking to him (but not necessarily understand the words), which from my experience of calling people over fields sounds about right. To have him reliably understand what the other person is saying would have a range of 100ft. I don't think Listen has the 'take 20' option, although the image of two lichs yelling at each other across a football pitch for a minute each time is vaguely amusing.

Hm, might work better for the story then. His hearing might be good enough to hear bits and pieces (aka losing the roll by like 3-5), a general impression of what was being talked about, but not the key detail that Xykon has literally nothing to gain from keeping with Redcloak's plan...

Also, yeah, I think the "Take 20" version of it would be shouting over a field and having each side shout back "CAN YOU REPEAT THAT?!" a few times :D.

[Deathhappens]

Whew. I guess even an Epic-level Lich is still limited to one spell a round, after all.

(Though Gods help them if Xykon decides the next spell is going to be "Meteor Swarm". Protection from Fire can only block so much).

[Deathhappens]

Sounds more like the Barbarian's Feather Fall.

The Fighter's Feather Fall is blocking the ground.

Welp, there goes another six hours down the drain archive diving.

[bunsen_h]

Much easier than trying to get a poison through O-Chul's CON. Plus, there is narratively no reason for the Giant to waste time on having them taken alive if their next appearance is as corpses.

I can imagine possibilities, unlikely though they are. One would be that the invisible assailants were sent to disable-and-retrieve the paladins, and were willing to do so. Then their master killed the paladins, which the invisible people thought unacceptable, leading to further complications.

[Ruck]

The problem with Xykon is that while he's definitely smart I don't think his usual attitude is faked. So I have a hard time telling when he's playing dumb and when he genuinely doesn't care enough to pay attention or inquire further.

I think you're right, and from my experience, that's exactly the kind of disinformation / confusion a Xykon type would want you to think. Especially what he'd want you to think in his position, given his desire to keep everyone around him subservient: You never know when he's messing around, so you'd better act at all times like he's not.

[danielxcutter]

Xykon likely having an astronomical Bluff modifier probably doesn't hurt, either.

[Deliverance]

Whew. I guess even an Epic-level Lich is still limited to one spell a round, after all.

(Though Gods help them if Xykon decides the next spell is going to be "Meteor Swarm". Protection from Fire can only block so much).

The geekery thread has Xykon down as a metamagic specialist, so if he's picked up quicken spell at some time he can cast two, but if he has that feat we haven't seen him use it yet.

[ManuelSacha]

"Present Company Included".

Xykon needs to be more genre savvy, though.
Anyone who's played some D&D already knew that the Energy Drain would have met with a "no sell" from Durkon.
I mean, it's two clerics who know they might meet an evil cleric and an undead. What else would they cast on themselves?

[Riftwolf]

Also, yeah, I think the "Take 20" version of it would be shouting over a field and having each side shout back "CAN YOU REPEAT THAT?!" a few times :D.

"I SAID 'PASS THE MARMALADE'!"
"YOU WANT THE BRASS YOUR FATHER MADE? TO ARSE THE PARLOUR MAID?"
"THE MARMALADE!"
"YOU WANT ME TO SMILE AT ROY HATTERSLEY?"
"That doesn't sound anything like 'pass the marmalade'..."

[Rogan]

Also, yeah, I think the "Take 20" version of it would be shouting over a field and having each side shout back "CAN YOU REPEAT THAT?!" a few times :D.

Great... Now I have to find a way to get rid of the mental image of two guys shouting at each other.
1: "Hey, can you tell me what time it is?"
2: "CAN YOU REPEAT THAT?"
1: "WHAT DID YOU SAY?"
2: "CAN YOU REPEAT THAT!"
1: "WHAT DID YOU SAY?!"

Poor Lichs, stuck i a recursive loop...

[Shining Wrath]

What level of Cleric is likely to be that heavily warded, were this a wandering monster kind of random encounter? Is that level of Cleric enough of a challenge to tickle Xykon's curiosity, or possibly give him XP?

First part of your post, why would O-Chul and Lien be dead? Seems sloppy on the part of the Unseen Duo to let them get killed, and if the Duo wanted both paladins killed, might there have been easier ways to go about it?

The Unseen Duo told Lien that the poison would kill O-Chul. They may not have been lying.
Then, both of them (with poison coursing through their veins) were tossed off a impressively tall cliff. So, 20d6 = 70 points of falling damage, which for O-Chul is a scratch, but that's on top of whatever the poison did to them.
And the Unseen Duo were concerned about being spotted by hobgoblins - which suggests they were not concerned about the Paladins moving around after being tossed off the cliff, because they weren't going to be moving.

[KorvinStarmast]

I have only one criticism of the art in OOTS - and that's Xykon's jaw when he opens his mouth. {snip} I wouldn't mind if it went back to the old style of just having his jaw float in midair. I think that would still fit with the art style.

I love this post. (Weird real life thing is going on with me right now, as my dentist is trying to fit a bridge and my jaw/mouth is going through a "bite alignment transition" which means that the teeth don't meet like they did last year ... frustrating for us both ... )

[pendell]

The Unseen Duo told Lien that the poison would kill O-Chul. They may not have been lying.
Then, both of them (with poison coursing through their veins) were tossed off a impressively tall cliff. So, 20d6 = 70 points of falling damage, which for O-Chul is a scratch, but that's on top of whatever the poison did to them.
And the Unseen Duo were concerned about being spotted by hobgoblins - which suggests they were not concerned about the Paladins moving around after being tossed off the cliff, because they weren't going to be moving.

Looking at the strip again , is it possible that Lien and O-chul are being carried away as prisoners by the invisible people, rather than outright murdered by them? That was how I read this strip when I first saw it. I can't believe that two characters like O-chul and Lien would simply be shot dead in one panel and then thrown off a cliff, never to be seen again. GRR Martin is not the author here

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[danielxcutter]

Looking at the strip again , is it possible that Lien and O-chul are being carried away as prisoners by the invisible people, rather than outright murdered by them? That was how I read this strip when I first saw it. I can't believe that two characters like O-chul and Lien would simply be shot dead in one panel and then thrown off a cliff, never to be seen again. GRR Martin is not the author here

Respectfully,

Brian P.

...Who is that ******* and please tell me what he wrote so I never read it.