Builds using Spell Sniper and little or no spellcasting classes

[Kane0]

Works nicely on an EK. It allows reach GFB/BB, enhances the ranged attack capability of a STR build and synergises well with War Magic if you’re building towards the cantrip + BA weapon combo (such as with a bow and rogue multiclass)

[iTreeby]

A sorcerer with the distant metamagic might try to get the extra 50 percent range out of a touch spell but because it only works on attack roles and not saves it doesn't really open up much new uses. A favored soul cold try harm and inflict wounds I guess...

[Quietus]

I guess in that situation, magic initiate would be more useful, right? You could pick up thunderclap, too, if it isn’t on the cleric list.

Unfortunately, you couldn't pick up Thunderclap. Spell Sniper requires that the spell you pick up use an attack roll, Thunderclap is save-based. It wouldn't get the additional range, either. Shame, or I'd be taking this on my artificer.

[Chronos]

Which is why Magic Initiate would be more useful, like cutlery said.

And that's the real rub. It's not too hard to find situations where an extra cantrip would be useful. But it is hard to find situations where an extra cantrip and a range increase is more useful than two extra cantrips and an extra first-level spell. And that's even more true if you don't have much in the way of spellcasting (and hence, not many other spells that would benefit from the range increase).

[Man_Over_Game]

Which is why Magic Initiate would be more useful, like cutlery said.

And that's the real rub. It's not too hard to find situations where an extra cantrip would be useful. But it is hard to find situations where an extra cantrip and a range increase is more useful than two extra cantrips and an extra first-level spell. And that's even more true if you don't have much in the way of spellcasting (and hence, not many other spells that would benefit from the range increase).

You could put it like this:

You have something you could have done without any feat, your original "default", we'll say this is worth 1 point.
Then you have the value of what cantrips the feat would have provided. A new "default", which we'll say is worth an additional 0.5 points.
Then there's the Reach provided by Spell Sniper, which we'll say doubles the value of Booming Blade, for an additional 0.5 points.
Then there's the value of the alternate level 1 spell, which is probably worth more than a Cantrip, so we'll say it's worth a total of 2 points when you cast it.

So with Magic Initiate, you're occasionally getting nothing out of that feat (as you'll have some cantrips you're casting that didn't come from that feat), and sometimes it's giving +0.5, and once per day it's giving +1.
With Spell Sniper, you're occasionally getting nothing, and sometimes you're getting +1 whenever you're using Booming Blade.

You could say that it's the difference between a Sorcerer vs. a Wizard. A Barbarian and a Ranger. A specialist vs. a generalist.

But from my experience, most melee characters are specialists.

[lukethecat2003]

In the thread on Warlock balance issues, discussion of eldritch blast led me to thinking about Spell Sniper, and how it practically reads "You know eldritch blast now, and gain these benefits." I know it technically lets you pick any ranged target cantrip, but eldritch blast really is kind-of the go-to, here. That aside, though, I was pondering builds using it that don't use spellcasting classes at their core. There are ways to get Spell Sniper without having a single level of a spellcasting class. So, what builds might you use for it if you have no spellcaster levels? What about only a dip or a 1/3 or 1/2 caster class?

Spell Sniper doubles the range on spells that require attack rolls, lets such spells ignore 1/2 and 3/4 cover, and lets you pick a cantrip that requires an attack roll, using the casting stat of the class from whose spell list you draw it. It requires you to be able to cast at least one spell to take it.

Gnomes, high elves, gith, and drow are obvious possible choices for how to pick it up with no class-based spells known. Drow, gith, and gnomes even benefit from the free sniper spell directly since, unlike high elves, they couldn't have taken a ranged attack spell with their racial features.

Gnomes may be uniquely placed to want to take something like fire bolt over eldritch blast, since they might be influenced by their +2 to Int to seek something off the Wizard list.

Class choice is an interesting one, here. Barbarian is right out; raging is not compatible with spellcasting, and you don't want your features working against each other. Rogue might seem tempting at first, but sneak attack actually only works with weapons (finesse or ranged), not spells. Fighter offers the close quarters shooter fighting style, which has some overlap with spell sniper in the cover-negating department, but gives +1 to hit with ranged attacks and lets you make ranged attacks within 5 ft. of enemies without Disadvantage. The Archery style only works with weapon attacks, so isn't helpful here.

In the end, this feat and its accompanying spell let you replace archery or other ranged weapons, but comes off of a mental stat when you're probably optimized for physicals. Still, is there any way this is better on a (mostly) non-caster than just going for archery? Any interesting builds come to mind?

to an EK, this may allow them to choose ranged cantrip, GFB and utility cantrip, which is int based bc they are int. so either firebolt or toll the dead or chill touch.

[TrueAlphaGamer]

~If SCAG cantrips are allowed at your table a lot of things go out of whack from intended balance~

What are the issues with SCAG cantrips and intended balance? I don't see much problem with them.

[SLOTHRPG95]

What are the issues with SCAG cantrips and intended balance? I don't see much problem with them.

SCAGtrips + Shillelagh lead to silliness* like going Arcana Cleric or Tomelock for good at-will melee damage, rather than War Cleric or Bladelock resp. Even without Shillelagh, the SCAGtrips are just too cheap a way to boost at-will DPR on Clerics (via feat) and Rogues and the like.

To OP: If I were to specifically have to make a non-caster build that made use of Spell Sniper for EB, it'd have to be a Str-based Fighter picking it for a decent ranged option while dumping Dex. For example, a variant half-elf (drow magic) battlemaster who went STR > CON > CHA >> WIS > DEX > INT. At that point, I'd ask my DM if being half-drow is enough to qualify for Drow High Magic, and make a sort of off-brand EK with no actual spell slots but as much racial/feat magic as I could muster.

*Whether something is silly or not is of course a matter of subjective taste, but I think it's not too controversial that the Arcana Cleric was not intended to be a better melee combatant than the domains that get divine strike and martial weapons.

[Mr Adventurer]

I took the feat on an Eldritch Blast Warlock. I also had Pact of the Tome, so I had loads of cantrips, it was great. I very much appreciated the ability to ignore most cover in combat: it's surprising how often the rest of the party being in melee will give the enemy +2 AC, otherwise.

But on topic:

Does Ritual Caster feat qualify you for this one?

[Unoriginal]

In the thread on Warlock balance issues, discussion of eldritch blast led me to thinking about Spell Sniper, and how it practically reads "You know eldritch blast now, and gain these benefits." I know it technically lets you pick any ranged target cantrip, but eldritch blast really is kind-of the go-to, here. That aside, though, I was pondering builds using it that don't use spellcasting classes at their core. There are ways to get Spell Sniper without having a single level of a spellcasting class. So, what builds might you use for it if you have no spellcaster levels? What about only a dip or a 1/3 or 1/2 caster class?

Spell Sniper doubles the range on spells that require attack rolls, lets such spells ignore 1/2 and 3/4 cover, and lets you pick a cantrip that requires an attack roll, using the casting stat of the class from whose spell list you draw it. It requires you to be able to cast at least one spell to take it.

Gnomes, high elves, gith, and drow are obvious possible choices for how to pick it up with no class-based spells known. Drow, gith, and gnomes even benefit from the free sniper spell directly since, unlike high elves, they couldn't have taken a ranged attack spell with their racial features.

Gnomes may be uniquely placed to want to take something like fire bolt over eldritch blast, since they might be influenced by their +2 to Int to seek something off the Wizard list.

Class choice is an interesting one, here. Barbarian is right out; raging is not compatible with spellcasting, and you don't want your features working against each other. Rogue might seem tempting at first, but sneak attack actually only works with weapons (finesse or ranged), not spells. Fighter offers the close quarters shooter fighting style, which has some overlap with spell sniper in the cover-negating department, but gives +1 to hit with ranged attacks and lets you make ranged attacks within 5 ft. of enemies without Disadvantage. The Archery style only works with weapon attacks, so isn't helpful here.

In the end, this feat and its accompanying spell let you replace archery or other ranged weapons, but comes off of a mental stat when you're probably optimized for physicals. Still, is there any way this is better on a (mostly) non-caster than just going for archery? Any interesting builds come to mind?

Fire Genasi have a CON-based Produce Flame, which benefits greatly from Spell Sniper.

Actually a decent attack for a CONbarian.

[MrStabby]

What are the issues with SCAG cantrips and intended balance? I don't see much problem with them.

So classes are nominally balanced around being good at some things and bad at others. You get some strengths, but they are offset by weaknesses. A lot of casting classes abilities are many and diverse, but are generally offset by being less good at at will damage (and somewhat at damage in general). SCAG cantrips turn this on its head; they let casters be both very good at control, area of effect spells, utility and so on whilst also being in the same league as other characters in terms of at will damage potential. Why play a barbarian when you can do nearly as much attack damage with a cleric but also have all your cleric spellcasting on top?

Fire Genasi have a CON-based Produce Flame, which benefits greatly from Spell Sniper.

Actually a decent attack for a CONbarian.

Oh, that's quite fun. I hadn't thought of that! Although isn't the range "Self"?

[Unoriginal]

Oh, that's quite fun. I hadn't thought of that! Although isn't the range "Self"?

True. But you can use it to do a ranged attack with 30ft of range, so maybe it still works.

[Quietus]

True. But you can use it to do a ranged attack with 30ft of range, so maybe it still works.

Unfortunately, RAW, this doesn't work - the Spell Sniper feet increases range, which is an attribute of the spell. If Range is self, then Spell Sniper can't double it.

However, as a DM, I'd absolutely allow it to work on Produce Flame. Nothing about this will break the game.

[TrueAlphaGamer]

They're not balanced.

As evinced by the fact they're consistently top picks in any discussion about optimization and cantrips.

Is EB also not balanced? Toll the Dead?

SCAGtrips + Shillelagh lead to silliness* like going Arcana Cleric or Tomelock for good at-will melee damage, rather than War Cleric or Bladelock resp. Even without Shillelagh, the SCAGtrips are just too cheap a way to boost at-will DPR on Clerics (via feat) and Rogues and the like.

Arcana Cleric + Shillelagh requires a feat tax, as you said, plus another to reliably get full damage off booming blade (lets be honest no DM is going to allow you many riders for either cantrip). It also suffers from poorer utility in their spell list/channel divinity.

Rogues get the opportunity cost of not being able to dual-wield, as well as not using ranged weapons, if they focus on BB. They also need to be either Swash to get both the rider and sneak attack off, otherwise its just an extra 1 to 2d8 while either staying in melee or burning a cunning action.

So classes are nominally balanced around being good at some things and bad at others. You get some strengths, but they are offset by weaknesses. A lot of casting classes abilities are many and diverse, but are generally offset by being less good at at will damage (and somewhat at damage in general). SCAG cantrips turn this on its head; they let casters be both very good at control, area of effect spells, utility and so on whilst also being in the same league as other characters in terms of at will damage potential. Why play a barbarian when you can do nearly as much attack damage with a cleric but also have all your cleric spellcasting on top?

SCAG cantrips are generally gated by the MADness and other opportunity costs of melee combat. Extra attack almost fully eclipses blade cantrip damage until maybe 11th level, and many campaigns don't play father than that. At that point, there is an even greater opportunity cost of going into melee using full casters, since they have their concentration to deal with, among other action economy competition.

[ThatoneGuy84]

I mean, other then grabbing SCAG on Rogue I dont often see this taken at all.
The last time I saw this was Highelf - takes GFB cantrip
Spell sniper - Pickup booming blade on Rogue.
With option of swapping Elf wep training, to Whip proficiency in Tashas, I can see this happening more often on rogues going forward once its released as official content.

Edit - Bonus points if you can get your hands on Illusionist bracers for a second rider option for Sneak attack.

Fully commiting to a Cantrip build.

[Meichrob7]

By RAW doesn’t spell sniper work with sun soul monk since those are ranger spell attacks?

[Segev]

By RAW doesn’t spell sniper work with sun soul monk since those are ranger spell attacks?

The ranged spell attacks would ignore cover. They would not have their ranged doubled, because the monk isn't casting a spell.

[Chronos]

Eldritch Blast is balanced, because it's only natively available to one class, requiring an opportunity cost for anyone else to get them, and other classes don't get any of the riders on it that warlocks do (and other parts of the warlock class are balanced around the fact that they get Eldritch Blast).

Toll the Dead is not balanced. It's a rarely-resisted damage type, and also almost always does more damage than any other cantrip, on a variety of already-strong classes? What were they thinking?

[TrueAlphaGamer]

Eldritch Blast is balanced, because it's only natively available to one class, requiring an opportunity cost for anyone else to get them, and other classes don't get any of the riders on it that warlocks do (and other parts of the warlock class are balanced around the fact that they get Eldritch Blast).

Toll the Dead is not balanced. It's a rarely-resisted damage type, and also almost always does more damage than any other cantrip, on a variety of already-strong classes? What were they thinking?

Toll the Dead is also only native to just three classes, one of them who doesn't need it (Warlock). Yes, it targets a mental save, and yes it does have a higher die size than things like Firebolt, but it also has a conditional that the target must be damaged for that higher die size to matter. It is a good cantrip, but I fail to see the imbalance from what you mention alone. Ain't no one dipping Wizard for Toll the Dead.

Eldritch Blast has a damage type that is arguably just as strong or stronger, with almost no monsters able to resist it. And obviously the opportunity cost is negligible, when Warlock is such a powerful dip class for the other Cha casters and that it's the basis of one of the most popular degenerate white-room multiclass combinations. Heck, the OP even assumed that EB would be the primary choice for a spell sniper cantrip in non-casters, because the damage and multiple rays make it competitive to and more reliable than cantrips like Toll and Firebolt.

Of course Warlock is based around their EB spam, but I don't know if I would go so far as saying they are "balanced" around it (in any way that is effective). Though, that's a discussion for another thread.

[Chronos]

Nobody dips warlock for eldritch blast, either. They dip warlock for other reasons, like Hex Warrior (which is also not balanced), and then pick up Eldritch Blast because they're dipping anyway.

[Quietus]

Nobody dips warlock for eldritch blast, either. They dip warlock for other reasons, like Hex Warrior (which is also not balanced), and then pick up Eldritch Blast because they're dipping anyway.

Bards and some sorcerers would like to have a word with you. Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast is some pretty top shelf stuff.

[Hellpyre]

Nobody dips warlock for eldritch blast, either. They dip warlock for other reasons, like Hex Warrior (which is also not balanced), and then pick up Eldritch Blast because they're dipping anyway.

I have seen many people dip Warlock specifically to pick up EB with invocations. In my (anecdotal) experience, it is by far the main reason players have cited when they chose to dip into Warlock. Hex Warrior is probably around third, after people dipping for spell list expansion in general (both Warlock exclusives and Tome of Shadows).

[Chronos]

Dipping (multiple levels) for EB and invocations, yes. But not for just the one level it'd take to get EB. In other words, it's not EB itself that is unbalanced; it's the other stuff warlocks get that boosts it.

[Hellpyre]

Dipping (multiple levels) for EB and invocations, yes. But not for just the one level it'd take to get EB. In other words, it's not EB itself that is unbalanced; it's the other stuff warlocks get that boosts it.

Your claim has (or at least appears to have) changed since the last comment. You said people dip Warlock for other effects, and pick up EB since, eh, they're already in Warlock.

My experience differs. People I play with, both now and in the past, have dipped warlock explicitly for that shiny EB, and often taken a second level to make it even nicer. For what it's worth, I've seen many more 1-level Warlock dips in no-feats games, where the other avenues of access to EB are cut off.

It is simply a very reliable cantrip, even before invocations come into play.

[Talionis]

3 Chain Warlock/3 Sorcerer/ 6 Eagle Totem Barbarian.

Take Aganizing Blast and Eldritch Spear for your invocations. Take Invisible Imp as a spotter.

Take Distant Spell meta magic on Sorcerer. So you can double range.

Take Spell Sniper and sillily you use sixth level Eagle Barbarian Totem to be able to clearly see an enemy far away.

This will make you a true sniper.

[Segev]

3 Chain Warlock/3 Sorcerer/ 6 Eagle Totem Barbarian.

Take Aganizing Blast and Eldritch Spear for your invocations. Take Invisible Imp as a spotter.

Take Distant Spell meta magic on Sorcerer. So you can double range.

Take Spell Sniper and sillily you use sixth level Eagle Barbarian Totem to be able to clearly see an enemy far away.

This will make you a true sniper.

Can you use the eagle totem sight distance through the Imp?

Regardless, this combo “only” gets you up to 1,200 feet range with EB. That’s very good, but doesn’t really need a spotter with eagle totem.

Nice build idea!