New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 41
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    Oct 2014

    Default What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    Players accept the differences between AC and DC despite one scaling relative to the defender while the other scales according to the attacker. It may be sensible to distinguish them this way to get around the different styles and allow for more DM behind the scenes manipulation but what if they were made effectively the same?

    Ability scores improve the attack roll to reach a static defense total the enemy has. This is the norm for melee, ranged, and some spells. d20+score+mods vs flat AC+mods

    Saves work effectively the same but swapping the roll requirement. You're still scaling according to ability score but it's your DC that remains flat while the enemy rolls to beat it. flat+score+mods vs d20+mods

    I propose making saving throws a flat value and instead the caster rolls to attack the saving throw. What this means for players is more rolling on offense when casting spells while on defense the DM is rolling to determine if the effect takes place. Where it matters it allows for the same level of fudging just on offense instead of the player rolling poorly on their saves and being out of luck for it. Monsters would have known flat values to beat and casters would pray for their lucky rolls, maybe even applying Advantage of their own to beat the monster defenses. Advantage on saves ceases to be a thing and merely becomes a higher base save defense.

    What potential flaws might crop up from this approach?
    Trolls will be blocked. Petrification works far better than fire and acid.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Amechra's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Where I live.

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    Eh, it should be fine. One of the real benefits is that it speeds up AoEs that call for saves - just roll your "save attack" once, and compare it to all of the static values.

    The real question is how you'll determine the static number of each save "defense". Some quick napkin math says that if you want monsters to save with the same frequency as they currently do, those static values are going to be really high. Like, 14-plus-the-current-save-bonus high.

    (Random example: I cast a spell that calls for a DC 15 Con save on an Ogre. That Ogre has a +3 save bonus, so it succeeds on a 12+, which means that I 'succeed' in effecting the Ogre 55% of the time. If I convert my save DC into an "attack", I'm rolling a +7 against whatever static value the Ogre uses. Since I want that 55% chance of success, I should succeed on a 10+. That gives me a DC of 17, or 14 + the Ogre's Constitution modifier.)
    Quote Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj View Post
    door is a fake exterior wall
    If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you!

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
    J-H's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    This was an optional rule in 3.5. The problem in play with this is that enemy saves are typically much more obscure to the party than enemy AC. Knowing what an enemy's saving throw is removes some of the guesswork from spell targeting.

    As a DM, it's faster for me to just roll and glance at a sheet and go "yes" or "no" than for wait to a player to do the same, tell me the number, and then get an answer back.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    This is the approach Star Wars Saga Edition and 4th edition D&D took, and it works fine for the most part- Instead of Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves, you attacked (or made a skill/ability check against, in the case of some Saga edition stuff) the Fortitude/Reflex/Will defense*. It gets a little murkier in 5e because as Amechra points out, the way proficiency bonuses works changes the math some. So to summarize, it can work, and it might speed up a few things like AoEs, but because the system isn't built from the ground up for this, you end up doing an awful lot of prep work to convert everything beforehand.

    *Saga edition actually folded AC into Reflex defense, since armor that protects against blasters and vibroswords probably works against frag grenades too. Doesn't work in D&D, since Chainmail is not nearly as effective against Dragonfire.
    Last edited by Squark; 2020-09-22 at 11:24 AM.
    Steam ID: The Great Squark
    3ds Friend Code: 4571-1588-1000

    Currently Playing: Warhammer 40000, Hades, Stellaris, Warframe

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Amechra's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Where I live.

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    Quote Originally Posted by MinotaurWarrior View Post
    It has the same problem as if extra attack was replaced with "extra damage - when you hit with an attack, deal the damage again". It makes combat much swinger which increases both TPK and boringly easy combats.
    I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Changing who rolls the dice doesn't necessarily change the likelihood that effects will succeed.
    Quote Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj View Post
    door is a fake exterior wall
    If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you!

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2013

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    It can change how traps filled dungeons feel. Often traps are attack roll for damage or save vs lose. So you feel more in control rolling to defend against that death trap. So account for that if you use this for Tomb of Horrors (for example).

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyutaru View Post
    What potential flaws might crop up from this approach?
    Like most things, it probably works better if the system had been built from the ground up with this expectation. Various random things will have to be addressed (if Bless granted you +1d4 to your saving throw, does it grant +1d4 to your Saving Class (or whatever we call it)? What about being Blessed and being the caster (of an offensive spell), does that add to your spell to-hit-like quality for getting past your enemies defenses? Little niggling details that would have to be worked out.

    Other than that, not so much. Switching who rolls won't change much, unless you have an ability that only applies to rolls you make (both Lucky feat and Portent diviner ability specifically do allow modification of either a roll you make or a roll made against you, but it'd take an exhaustive search to see if there are others out there).

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Avatar By Astral Seal!

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    One of the real benefits is that it speeds up AoEs that call for saves - just roll your "save attack" once, and compare it to all of the static values.
    On this point, that's actually something I would NOT do.

    Let's say you're facing a dozen goblins, and you cast Burning Hands and hit seven of them. You roll a little below average, and only get 9 damage.

    If each goblin made their own save, some would live (7-4=3 HP left), some would die (7-9=-2 HP left). If you roll once and compare it to their defenses, you either kill them all or fail to kill any of them.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Linkele
    Show

    Spoiler: Individual Avatar Pics
    Show

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Amechra's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Where I live.

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    That's a fair objection.
    Quote Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj View Post
    door is a fake exterior wall
    If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you!

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Griffon

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    San Diego
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    What would likely break is the fact that everyone succeeds or fails at the same time. While missing, say, a fireball against a whole group of enemies might be annoying, having a good chance of *succeeding* against every single enemy at the same time with a control spell like Hypnotic Pattern would be devastating for balance.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark.Revenant View Post
    What would likely break is the fact that everyone succeeds or fails at the same time. While missing, say, a fireball against a whole group of enemies might be annoying, having a good chance of *succeeding* against every single enemy at the same time with a control spell like Hypnotic Pattern would be devastating for balance.
    Yeah, there's a nice detailed discussion of that here.

    This table I think really tells the tale.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jun 2019

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    Divination Wizard. Cast Hypnotic Pattern, roll to hit. If you roll low, replace it with your high Portent roll. Congrats on winning that fight.

    Bane also becomes useless, because if you instead just Bless the Wizard then every target of the Wizard's save spells effectively has Bane applied. Though I guess it works now as an anti-caster spell, but depending on tactics and party size you may still just be better off Blessing your team instead.

    It also raises questions of how these rolls interact with Advantage and Disadvantage. You can draw out a framework to separate the Save Rolls from the Attack Rolls to try to solve these issues, but honestly it's not going to be intuitive no matter what you do. It's much more obvious that you don't apply Advantage when you aren't the one rolling the die.
    Last edited by Evaar; 2020-09-22 at 03:11 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Aug 2016

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evaar View Post
    Divination Wizard. Cast Hypnotic Pattern, roll to hit. If you roll low, replace it with your high Portent roll. Congrats on winning that fight.
    "You can replace any attack roll, saving throw, or ability check made by you or a creature that you can see with one of these foretelling rolls. You must choose to do so before the roll, and you can replace a roll in this way only once per turn."

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Somewhere
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    There's also the matter of effects that allow to retry the save every round. 4e "solved" it by making the saving throw flatly succeeding on 11+, but that would mean it doesn't matter if it's an apprentice wizard keeping a demon lord banished or an archmage keeping an orc ROFLing, both have the same chance to maintain the effect.
    Last edited by JackPhoenix; 2020-09-22 at 04:07 PM.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    There's also the matter of effects that allow to retry the save every round.
    I was getting around to that ... and I think 13th Age borrowed that flat 11+ or 15+ thing ... need to check that rule book.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    it's an apprentice wizard keeping a demon lord banished or an archmage keeping an orc ROFLing, both have the same chance to maintain the effect.
    There is that drawback; missing the benefit of the proficiency bonus which is a key mechanical thing in this edition.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jun 2019

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daphne View Post
    "You can replace any attack roll, saving throw, or ability check made by you or a creature that you can see with one of these foretelling rolls. You must choose to do so before the roll, and you can replace a roll in this way only once per turn."
    Okay, not really the point I'm making though. Get a high roll at the start of the day? Now you know you have an encounter-shattering Hypnotic Pattern in your back pocket whenever you want. That's distinct difference from being able to guarantee one attack hits.
    Last edited by Evaar; 2020-09-22 at 04:40 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    Oct 2017

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    I was getting around to that ... and I think 13th Age borrowed that flat 11+ or 15+ thing ... need to check that rule book.
    Yep. Normal save is 11+, Hard is 16+, Easy is 5+.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    This is how 4e did it. Instead of saves, everyone had non-armor defenses.

    The math doesn't have to change in any way. The wizard can cast 5 different attack rolls, one against each target of a given spell.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jun 2019

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    This is how 4e did it. Instead of saves, everyone had non-armor defenses.

    The math doesn't have to change in any way. The wizard can cast 5 different attack rolls, one against each target of a given spell.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but in 4e you still made individual attack rolls against each target when targeting, say, four targets with an Intelligence attack against Will.

    Because I think you could make that work in 5e. What I don't think works is doing a single roll to establish a difficulty to beat, then compare to static save scores, because you vastly increase the value of things like Portent and other effects to bolster/guarantee accuracy of a single hit. You still run into this problem with effects like Bless, which just applies to all attack rolls.

    And I still think you'll have unintended effects on things like Advantage/Disadvantage. Do you get Advantage when attacking a Blinded target with Fireball? Or do they specifically have to be Restrained to grant you advantage?
    Last edited by Evaar; 2020-09-22 at 06:15 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2010

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    The game assumes that rules with save DCs (poison, spells, etc.) do not trigger critical hits and do not apply advantage/disadvantage due to conditions affecting the active source of the rule.

    It seems weird to convert rules with save DCs into attacks, and then either skew the game balance by subjecting them to the same modifiers that apply to regular attack rolls, or distort the game mechanics by a placing arbitrary exceptions on them to retain legacy game balance.

    Example: A wizard has an enemy within 5 ft. and whats to cast a fireball at a distant group of enemies. Why should he not have disadvantage on his rolls to attack those targets? But how does the presence of that enemy make it harder for the fireball to affect its targets? Failed attacks would presumable mean half damage, but if the wizard rolls a 20 for his attacks against any of the targets, is that a critical hit? If it is a critical hit, then that skews the average damage of the fireball upwards, which could be considered "broken". If not, then it is an exception to the normal attack mechanics, which is also "broken".

    -DF

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    Oct 2014

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    Quote Originally Posted by DwarfFighter View Post
    The game assumes that rules with save DCs (poison, spells, etc.) do not trigger critical hits and do not apply advantage/disadvantage due to conditions affecting the active source of the rule.

    It seems weird to convert rules with save DCs into attacks, and then either skew the game balance by subjecting them to the same modifiers that apply to regular attack rolls, or distort the game mechanics by a placing arbitrary exceptions on them to retain legacy game balance.

    Example: A wizard has an enemy within 5 ft. and whats to cast a fireball at a distant group of enemies. Why should he not have disadvantage on his rolls to attack those targets? But how does the presence of that enemy make it harder for the fireball to affect its targets? Failed attacks would presumable mean half damage, but if the wizard rolls a 20 for his attacks against any of the targets, is that a critical hit? If it is a critical hit, then that skews the average damage of the fireball upwards, which could be considered "broken". If not, then it is an exception to the normal attack mechanics, which is also "broken".

    -DF
    Thank you, easily the most compelling argument alongside the round by round saving.

    My thoughts on spell crits are that they offer an alternative way to handle condition severity. Much of the magic system is currently Pass or Fail and saving throws represent the struggle. If one were to make them attacks then Pass and Fail are not the only types one might have. You can critically succeed on your spell and result in a more potent effect or critically fail resulting in something less than nothing. This sort of thing might warrant the 3rd edition or Pathfinder 2.0 critical systems however rather than 10% of all spells operating weirdly. A system like this would reward powerful wizards dealing with weak minions by upgrading their effects naturally while making strong bosses more immune to these effects without depending on poor rolling to result in a binary state victory condition. Partial effect spells seem more rewarding with potent conditions applied to lesser beings and mere debuffed stat inconveniences applied to stronger ones.

    Likewise round by round saving may simply be that the strength of the spell diminishes at a certain rate each turn and when its power falls below your saving threshold it no longer effects you. Spells that last briefly may lose 5+ potency per turn while spells that hold a long duration by caster level may lose 1 or 2 potency each turn. So if you rolled a 32 on your attack and you enemy's save was 24 then a strong control effect may last four rounds on him before he breaks out 32-> 30-> 28-> 26-> 24. This eliminates one of the things I disliked about magic being the inconsistency as every round a wizard is unsure if he can still hold the enemy or not. A system like this would tell them definitively how long they can expect to control a bear for depending on how strong their hold on them happens to be.
    Trolls will be blocked. Petrification works far better than fire and acid.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Amechra's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Where I live.

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    Quote Originally Posted by DwarfFighter View Post
    It seems weird to convert rules with save DCs into attacks, and then either skew the game balance by subjecting them to the same modifiers that apply to regular attack rolls, or distort the game mechanics by a placing arbitrary exceptions on them to retain legacy game balance.
    While those are valid concerns, this wouldn't necessarily happen. There's no need to change stuff from being a "saving throw" to an "attack roll" just because someone else is rolling the die - just call it a "save check" or whatever. Kinda like how Grapples and Shoves call for opposed ability checks instead of an attack roll.

    (At this time, I would like to voice my annoyance with the fact that we refer to the act of rolling a d20 + modifiers vs. a DC as a "roll", "check", or "throw", depending on what we're doing. Now that's a sacred cow I could do without.)
    Quote Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj View Post
    door is a fake exterior wall
    If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you!

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Mar 2014

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    You would have to figure out how advantage/disadvantage will work on these. What if you are casting at a gnome who gets advantage against the spell?

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    California's Hat
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Changing who rolls the dice doesn't necessarily change the likelihood that effects will succeed.
    I think they mean when it is 1 roll for a hypnotic pattern instead of 7.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Luccan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    The Old West

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    Could someone explain the math here? Because to me it looks like this change favors the spellcaster/attacker, particularly against low save opponents

    Either way, it certainly feels weaker, which I don't think should be ignored. Presentation is important
    Last edited by Luccan; 2020-09-25 at 02:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    All Roads Lead to Gnome.

    I for one support the Gnoman Empire.
    Avatar by linklele

    Spoiler: Build Contests
    Show

    E6 Iron Chef XVI Shared First Place: Black Wing

    E6 Iron Chef XXI Shared Second Place: The Shadow's Hand


  27. - Top - End - #27
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Valmark's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Montevarchi, Italy
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    Could someone explain the math here? Because to me it looks like this change favors the spellcaster/attacker, particularly against low save opponents

    Either way, it certainly feels weaker, which I don't think should be ignored. Presentation is important
    Like Amechra explained:
    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    The real question is how you'll determine the static number of each save "defense". Some quick napkin math says that if you want monsters to save with the same frequency as they currently do, those static values are going to be really high. Like, 14-plus-the-current-save-bonus high.

    (Random example: I cast a spell that calls for a DC 15 Con save on an Ogre. That Ogre has a +3 save bonus, so it succeeds on a 12+, which means that I 'succeed' in effecting the Ogre 55% of the time. If I convert my save DC into an "attack", I'm rolling a +7 against whatever static value the Ogre uses. Since I want that 55% chance of success, I should succeed on a 10+. That gives me a DC of 17, or 14 + the Ogre's Constitution modifier.)
    Just need to boost the save AC before modifiers from 10 to 14.

    On another note, advantage on a save would become disadvantage to the spellcaster's roll (and viceversa for disadvantage).

    A problem is that stuff like Bless/Bane and Bardic Inspiration become slower- you first need them to roll the die to see how much the save AC changes, then you roll your save attack instead of rolling the dice together. It's a small change, but on the long run I expect the effects to become more noticeable.

    Also, I think making the caster roll the dice themselves to make save attacks makes the game slower too. Not sure, but I get that feeling.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    There is the "problem" that some saves aren't triggered by enemies.

    If you stumble on a trap that requires a Dex save, who is the one rolling? The trap itself? The same goes for stuff like diseases and poisons.

    Another thing that might be problematic is rerolls.

    If I have something that allows me to reroll (eg; the Lucky feat), it's nice to know the result of the dice before choosing to reroll.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Valmark's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Montevarchi, Italy
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    There is the "problem" that some saves aren't triggered by enemies.

    If you stumble on a trap that requires a Dex save, who is the one rolling? The trap itself? The same goes for stuff like diseases and poisons.

    Another thing that might be problematic is rerolls.

    If I have something that allows me to reroll (eg; the Lucky feat), it's nice to know the result of the dice before choosing to reroll.
    Why wouldn't the trap roll? Or diseases and poisons?

    For the reroll you'd only need the DM to tell you what they got. It would be very awkward though, I think.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What breaks if you make saves the static number?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    Why wouldn't the trap roll? Or diseases and poisons?
    They would, but I can see some people being averse to this idea. That's all I was saying.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •