Would this fix the storm sorcerer?

[GalvanicFour64]

So you know how the storm sorcerer is arguably the weakest of the sorcerer subclasses, regardless of the fact that it’s abilities don’t require sorcery points?

If we were to buff Tempestuous magic from 10feet to 20feet (so it would actually be useful) and change heart of the storm to do damage of sorcerer level and not half level, would that fix the subclass?

[Unoriginal]

So you know how the storm sorcerer is arguably the weakest of the sorcerer subclasses, regardless of the fact that it’s abilities don’t require sorcery points?

If we were to buff Tempestuous magic from 10feet to 20feet (so it would actually be useful) and change heart of the storm to do damage of sorcerer level and not half level, would that fix the subclass?

What exactly about the Storm Sorcerer makes it weaker than the other subclasses?

[GalvanicFour64]

What exactly about the Storm Sorcerer makes it weaker than the other subclasses?

The main premise of this subclass is to get fairly up close and personal, do a fair amount of damage and then get out of there

The problem is the 10 feet of movement doesn’t really help that much and the heart of the storm damage isn’t enough to justify going to melee range like that

The 14th and 18th level features are nice imo but they’re a bit late to the party if ygm

[Unoriginal]

The main premise of this subclass is to get fairly up close and personal, do a fair amount of damage and then get out of there

The problem is the 10 feet of movement doesn’t really help that much and the heart of the storm damage isn’t enough to justify going to melee range like that

Do you need to go in melee range? I was under the impression Storm Sorcerer was about giving you options to get out of melee range/punish those who try to force you into it.

[Kireban]

Heart of the storm will be too strong with such a buff.
A change to tempestuous magic will be nice, but i dont think that the 10ft is too short. One of the giant soul ua subclass feats was similar. It is really nice for the lvl1 aoe spells with the close range.
I hope to play this subclass soon.

[micahaphone]

Just spitballing here, but what if it was changed to letting you push around other creatures as well? Be the windy battlefield shuffling sorcerer

[Nhorianscum]

So you know how the storm sorcerer is arguably the weakest of the sorcerer subclasses, regardless of the fact that it’s abilities don’t require sorcery points?

If we were to buff Tempestuous magic from 10feet to 20feet (so it would actually be useful) and change heart of the storm to do damage of sorcerer level and not half level, would that fix the subclass?

Storm is fine as is tbh. Tempestuous magic is actually really good as is and heart is far from bad.

[Edea]

What exactly about the Storm Sorcerer makes it weaker than the other subclasses?

IMO, Storm Sorcery is fine if you're playing a multiclass Sorcadin gish, which is what I think the Origin was designed for.

For example, Tempestuous Magic from the perspective of a straight, traditional caster sorcerer is...lame. Why would I give a crap about +10 movement in exchange for my bonus action, which is needed for Flexible Casting? Spellcasting doesn't even provoke OAs, anymore. But as a gish, suddenly you're up in an opponent's face passing out smites and casting buffs, which mesh with this feature perfectly as it opens up tons of tactical options.

Another one's Heart of the Storm. If I cast witch bolt like a normal sorcerer...yay? I'm way in the back and trying to blast someone 60 feet away, big frickin' woop. But if I'm a gish, and decide to cast thunderous smite in the middle of a group of enemies, suddenly this is a pretty ballin' class feature, etc. etc..

[sophontteks]

It's fine, sure, but it's still the weakest subclass with wild only competing with a uncooperative DM. The other subclasses offer A LOT. Storm needs to multiclass to work at all.

Unfortunately 20 feet still keeps you in melee range, and I think it just makes it a better multiclass option.

Storm sorcerers need something to give them some survivability up close, or make it so their abilities dont require them to constantly be up front.

[Jerrykhor]

They are definitely not fine. How do they NOT have call lightning?

[GalvanicFour64]

IMO, Storm Sorcery is fine if you're playing a multiclass Sorcadin gish, which is what I think the Origin was designed for.

For example, Tempestuous Magic from the perspective of a straight, traditional caster sorcerer is...lame. Why would I give a crap about +10 movement in exchange for my bonus action, which is needed for Flexible Casting? Spellcasting doesn't even provoke OAs, anymore. But as a gish, suddenly you're up in an opponent's face passing out smites and casting buffs, which mesh with this feature perfectly as it opens up tons of tactical options.

Another one's Heart of the Storm. If I cast witch bolt like a normal sorcerer...yay? I'm way in the back and trying to blast someone 60 feet away, big frickin' woop. But if I'm a gish, and decide to cast thunderous smite in the middle of a group of enemies, suddenly this is a pretty ballin' class feature, etc. etc..

That’s fine but something shouldn’t be made solely to multiclass
Like it works great with tempest cleric too but like...it should on it’s own

[GalvanicFour64]

It's fine, sure, but it's still the weakest subclass with wild only competing with a uncooperative DM. The other subclasses offer A LOT. Storm needs to multiclass to work at all.

Unfortunately 20 feet still keeps you in melee range, and I think it just makes it a better multiclass option.

Storm sorcerers need something to give them some survivability up close, or make it so their abilities dont require them to constantly be up front.

Bingo.
So are the changes ok? Orrrr

[GalvanicFour64]

Storm is fine as is tbh. Tempestuous magic is actually really good as is and heart is far from bad.

On it’s own tho? Really?

[GalvanicFour64]

I've heard or seen every one of the sorcerers presented as the weakest now.

Just last month we had a thread about Celestial not giving much because cleric spells don't add much. Shadow regularly get complaints because of spending Sorc points for darkness. Wild gets a ton of bad flak because of DM fiat. And dragon doesn't have enough elements of each type except fire, and that's too resisted.

In my opinion the only valid complaint there is the wild sorcerer, and even then not too much if done right, it’s only 2 sorcery points for darkness WITH DARKVISION, With celestial the problem is with the class itself not the subclass and with dragon that’s a problem with the game, again, not the subclass

Storm is different cos it tries something and doesn’t live up to it

[Jerrykhor]

I haven't seen anyone play a Storm Sorcerer before. IMO its low key as bad as Purple DK, where if you want to play a storm based caster, you'd just play a tempest cleric.

[Skylivedk]

Maybe have the 10 ft increase to 20 ft a bit later.

Definitely needs buffing IMO though. Being compared to pdk is like being told you look good when the lights are off.

[Edea]

I mean, we can homebrew it to be juicy, but from what I'm looking at the core concept needs an overhaul.

I'm also kind-of waiting to see if Psionic Soul/Aberrant Mind/whatever shows up in TCoE legitimizes the idea of Sorcerous Origins supplying a "themed" bonus spells known table (i.e. whether the UA version stuck or not).

[Zilong]

I haven't seen anyone play a Storm Sorcerer before. IMO its low key as bad as Purple DK, where if you want to play a storm based caster, you'd just play a tempest cleric.

In the groups I’ve played in/ GM’d storm sorcerers have been the most common sorcerer subtype. They seem to keep up with the rest of the party. Honestly, even among the classes and subclasses which are considered weak (rangers, wild magic sorcerers, etc.) the ones that I’ve seen in play have no problems contributing meaningfully to the group. Granted, the storm sorcerer in m=the game that I run did die recently, but that was mostly poor tactics on their part. Like accidentally trying to solo a troll and a bunch of troglodytes at level 5.

[GalvanicFour64]

In the groups I’ve played in/ GM’d storm sorcerers have been the most common sorcerer subtype. They seem to keep up with the rest of the party. Honestly, even among the classes and subclasses which are considered weak (rangers, wild magic sorcerers, etc.) the ones that I’ve seen in play have no problems contributing meaningfully to the group. Granted, the storm sorcerer in m=the game that I run did die recently, but that was mostly poor tactics on their part. Like accidentally trying to solo a troll and a bunch of troglodytes at level 5.

But surely it could execute its abilities and hence playstyle better
I’m not saying it’s impossible to be good with it, even something as infamous as the Purple dragon knight/banneret could be played like a boss
But they can be carried out a whole lot better ygm?

[GalvanicFour64]

I mean, we can homebrew it to be juicy, but from what I'm looking at the core concept needs an overhaul.

I'm also kind-of waiting to see if Psionic Soul/Aberrant Mind/whatever shows up in TCoE legitimizes the idea of Sorcerous Origins supplying a "themed" bonus spells known table (i.e. whether the UA version stuck or not).

Personally I think they should be added as homebrew by default
I mean that’s clearly the direction the WoTC,UA etc want to take the sorcerers down given all the recent subclasses so honestly there’s no reason not to

[GalvanicFour64]

Do you need to go in melee range? I was under the impression Storm Sorcerer was about giving you options to get out of melee range/punish those who try to force you into it.

Even then tho it only helps so so

[Zilong]

But surely it could execute its abilities and hence playstyle better
I’m not saying it’s impossible to be good with it, even something as infamous as the Purple dragon knight/banneret could be played like a boss
But they can be carried out a whole lot better ygm?

Not really, in this case, the player wanted the the sorcery points and the sorcerer spell list. That was important since, as mentioned here, the comparison that is always drawn is to the tempest cleric. The cleric stuff was not important to them. Hence, the storm sorcerer was the best fit. Plus, there is some implied lore with every class and sorcerer was just a more interesting motif for that character.

It is just odd to me that people online are constantly trying to “fix” things where there is not a problem to begin with. Funny enough, the only time I’ve seen people disappointed with their characters, in real play,was when the player intentionally tried to optimize the character then realized that the character was a one trick pony that often fell flat because they were focusing too much on mechanical gimmicks.

[GalvanicFour64]

Not really, in this case, the player wanted the the sorcery points and the sorcerer spell list. That was important since, as mentioned here, the comparison that is always drawn is to the tempest cleric. The cleric stuff was not important to them. Hence, the storm sorcerer was the best fit. Plus, there is some implied lore with every class and sorcerer was just a more interesting motif for that character.

It is just odd to me that people online are constantly trying to “fix” things where there is not a problem to begin with. Funny enough, the only time I’ve seen people disappointed with their characters, in real play,was when the player intentionally tried to optimize the character then realized that the character was a one trick pony that often fell flat because they were focusing too much on mechanical gimmicks.

That’s all fair enough but the problem here is it’s not too good at what it’s supposed to be good at
I agree with you, when it comes to the RP aspects and the lore, most of the time I’d like to go storm sorcerer but the mechanics are important too, where is 10 feet gonna get you and what’s the occasional 3 damage points gonna do, it should be buffed a bit imo.

Trust me I get there’s far more than mechanics considering DND is a ROLEPLAYING game but that doesn’t Change the fact that it could be stronger.

[GalvanicFour64]

Heart of the storm will be too strong with such a buff.
A change to tempestuous magic will be nice, but i dont think that the 10ft is too short. One of the giant soul ua subclass feats was similar. It is really nice for the lvl1 aoe spells with the close range.
I hope to play this subclass soon.

What kinda changes to tempestuous magic do you have in mind then?
Also does the 10 feet really make much different? And the 3-10 (max) damage from HotS?

[GalvanicFour64]

It's fine, sure, but it's still the weakest subclass with wild only competing with a uncooperative DM. The other subclasses offer A LOT. Storm needs to multiclass to work at all.

Unfortunately 20 feet still keeps you in melee range, and I think it just makes it a better multiclass option.

Storm sorcerers need something to give them some survivability up close, or make it so their abilities dont require them to constantly be up front.

I just figured a full 30 feet would be too much cos that’s basically double movement but here you can split movement between (bonus) actions.

[GalvanicFour64]

IMO, Storm Sorcery is fine if you're playing a multiclass Sorcadin gish, which is what I think the Origin was designed for.

For example, Tempestuous Magic from the perspective of a straight, traditional caster sorcerer is...lame. Why would I give a crap about +10 movement in exchange for my bonus action, which is needed for Flexible Casting? Spellcasting doesn't even provoke OAs, anymore. But as a gish, suddenly you're up in an opponent's face passing out smites and casting buffs, which mesh with this feature perfectly as it opens up tons of tactical options.

Another one's Heart of the Storm. If I cast witch bolt like a normal sorcerer...yay? I'm way in the back and trying to blast someone 60 feet away, big frickin' woop. But if I'm a gish, and decide to cast thunderous smite in the middle of a group of enemies, suddenly this is a pretty ballin' class feature, etc. etc..

That’s the problem tho
Something shouldn’t be designed around multiclassing. End of.

Edit: aaaaaaaand I’ve just replied to your comment twice, sorry.

[BoxANT]

our group made one change, which makes them much more enjoyable to play (albeit not that much powerful).

Gust (cantrip) can trigger Tempestuous Magic

casting Gust in combat (even with 10 ft. flying) is not usually a good use of your actions (sometimes is tho) but gives a lot of mobility when out of combat and is just a lot of fun

[GalvanicFour64]

our group made one change, which makes them much more enjoyable to play (albeit not that much powerful).

Gust (cantrip) can trigger Tempestuous Magic

casting Gust in combat (even with 10 ft. flying) is not usually a good use of your actions (sometimes is tho) but gives a lot of mobility when out of combat and is just a lot of fun

Hmmmmmmm
Adding cantrips to the prerequisite sounds like a pretty sick idea
Nice

[sophontteks]

I've heard or seen every one of the sorcerers presented as the weakest now.

Just last month we had a thread about Celestial not giving much because cleric spells don't add much. Shadow regularly get complaints because of spending Sorc points for darkness. Wild gets a ton of bad flak because of DM fiat. And dragon doesn't have enough elements of each type except fire, and that's too resisted.

A shadow sorcerer can convert level 2 spells into darkness matamagic uses at perfect effeciency (aka eat a level 2 spell for 2 metamagic, and use it to cast darkness.) The complaints there are completely unjustified. It's essentially a beefed up free spell that can be additionally cast using metamagic.

Celestial is not as strong as it appears. Many argue its the best, so the forum post makes sense...But its still far better then storm. The power of a free known spell for a sorcerer is huge on its own.

Wild was written poorly and its power depends almost entirely on the DM.

[micahaphone]

At this point I'm not helping just complaining, but IDK what mechanic I'd be excited to use for storm sorcerer. In all the other sorc origins, I can picture myself using their features frequently. A draconic sorc is always blasting, and their toughness lets them blast from any position. A wild magic sorc wants to be triggering their surges as much as possible, and using tides of chaos for advantage. Divine Soul makes me excited to think of cleric spells with metamagic. Shadow has a darkness/devil sight style trick, and the hound for some real save or suck spells.

Storm seems to encourage me to be on the front lines but then flit behind the party's frontline after I do an opening salvo. Sort of a skirmisher. And other than Thunder Wave, I'm not sure why I'd want to be up there. It's like a rogue dip sorcerer. Other than the language and weather ribbons, a lightning draconic sorc can probably do the storm borne feel