How does this character have the required skills and BAB for this prestige class?

[eyebreaker7]

Pages 83-84 of the Savage Species handbook lists a prestige class called a Scaled Horror. Some of the skill requirements are Hide 5 ranks & Move Silent 5 ranks.
Below is an example character they give that somehow has 5 ranks in both Hide & Move Silent. But I don't see HOW? Can someone please explain how he meets those 2 skill rank requirements? It's not from being a lizardfolk and he has no Dex bonus so it can't be that either.
I also don't see how he qualifies for the BAB requirement of +5. I know he gets +4 for his 4 levels of fighter. Does he add the +2 for his 2 HD for being a lizardfolk? I thought you just went with the best bonus?

Saebeohrt Rippling Death
Male lizardfolk
Ftr 4/Scaled Horror 2
CR: 7
Medium-size humanoid (aquatic, reptilian)
HD: 2d8+4 plus 4d10+8 plus 2d10+4
HP: 58
Initiative: +4
Speed: 30 ft.
AC: 21, touch 10, flat-footed 21
Attack: +9 melee (1d4+3, 2 claws) and +7 melee (1d4+1, bite), or +10/+5 melee (1d8+5/x3, +1 unholy battleaxe), or +6 ranged (5d6+3, javelin of lightning)
Face/Reach: 5ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: improved grab
Special Qualities: freedom of movement
Alignment: NE
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +4, Will +2
Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8

Skills: Balance +4, Climb +6, Handle Animal +2, Hide +5, Jump +14, Listen +4, Move Silently +5, Spot +5, Swim +16 ( Thanks to his tail, Saebeohrt receives a +4 racial bonus on Jump, Swim, & Balance checks.
Feats: Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Track
Ranger Spells Prepared: (2; save DC 12): 1st – magic fang, pass without trace.
Possessions: +1 mithral shirt, +1 darkwood shield, +1 unholy battleaxe, 5 javelins of lightning, 2 potions of swimming, 4 potions of cure moderate wounds, 78 gp.

I'm not sure but I may have asked this before and can't find the post. Sorry if I already asked. I don't remember how he qualifies if I already asked about it.

[Unavenger]

Below is an example character they give that somehow has 5 ranks in both Hide & Move Silent. But I don't see HOW? Can someone please explain how he meets those 2 skill rank requirements? It's not from being a lizardfolk and he has no Dex bonus so it can't be that either.
I also don't see how he qualifies for the BAB requirement of +5. I know he gets +4 for his 4 levels of fighter. Does he add the +2 for his 2 HD for being a lizardfolk? I thought you just went with the best bonus?

While ordinarily a lizardfolk does not take ranks in hide or move silently, a second-level lizardfolk who does not necessarily take the skill ranks of a standard lizardfolk can have 5 ranks in either skill, assuming that they are class skills for the humanoid in question (which is not well-specified). This would allow the lizardfolk to take 5 ranks in each.

Being a 4th-level fighter and a 2hd humanoid, he has a total BAB of +5, 1 from the two levels in humanoid and 4 from the four levels in fighter - they are added together, rather than only the best applying.

Outside of those, though, there is an ongoing quest to find a sample NPC who _doesn't_ have some kind of mistake in their write-up; it's no particular surprise if they futzed this one up too.

[Doctor Despair]

Perhaps they paid a wizard for a Polymorph (into a Dusk Giant) and a psion for a Psychic Reformation ;)

[Darg]

Level adjustment +1. 4 fighter, 2 lizardfolk, 1 LA = 10 max ranks or 5 if cross classed. If effective spell level = spell level then effective character level = character level. Nothing in the rules that actually run counter to this... so I guess it's legal on a technicality?

[Thurbane]

The most logical answer, of course, is that the stat block fails to qualify for the PrC, like so many others. Stat blocks are very often fraught with errors.

[PrismCat21]

[QUOTE=eyebreaker7}Below is an example character they give that somehow has 5 ranks in both Hide & Move Silent. But I don't see HOW? Can someone please explain how he meets those 2 skill rank requirements? It's not from being a lizardfolk and he has no Dex bonus so it can't be that either.
I also don't see how he qualifies for the BAB requirement of +5. I know he gets +4 for his 4 levels of fighter. Does he add the +2 for his 2 HD for being a lizardfolk? I thought you just went with the best bonus?[/QUOTE]

Lizardfolk are humanoids. As a humanoid, they have 3/4 BAB per racial Hit Dice, and skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die.
With 2 Hit Dice, this gives him a BAB of +1, and a max skill rank limit of 5 (max rank = HD+3 for class skills). 4 levels of Fighter give him another +4 BAB for a total of +5, and raises max skill rank limit to 9.
The only real issue is that typical Lizardfolk do not have Hide or Move Silently as class skills, but typical Lizardfolk do not take Prestige Classes either... It's easy enough to give them Hide and Move Silently and be done with it.
*Note: Ability Scores have nothing to do with your ranks in a skill. They are added to the number of ranks to create the total modifier.
**Note: You also add your BAB together from all sources. They add to each other, not overlap. Same with Save Bonuses.

The Lizardfolk can meet the skill requirements at 2 HD if Hide and Move Silently were class skills for it.
It meets the BAB requirement at 6 HD.
It enters Scaled Horror at 7 HD.

Level adjustment +1. 4 fighter, 2 lizardfolk, 1 LA = 10 max ranks or 5 if cross classed. If effective spell level = spell level then effective character level = character level. Nothing in the rules that actually run counter to this... so I guess it's legal on a technicality?

Character Level = the character's total number of levels (class levels)
Effective Character Level = Character Level + Racial Hit Dice + Level Adjustment.
They are not at all the same thing.
Where do you get effective spell level = spell level? What do you mean by effective spell level?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Racial HD are like additional class levels. They give you hit dice, skill points, BAB, base saves, etc. and they count toward your max skill ranks.

While a Lizardfolk officially only has Balance, Jump, and Swim as class skills, it wouldn't be out of the question to have one from a different climate that has different class skills. The creature in question has a CR, not an ECL, so swapping class skills 1:1 to fit a concept isn't out of the question.

As others have said, the racial HD give it +1 BAB, which combined with Fighter 4 (it's like a multiclass Humanoid 2/ Fighter 4) gives it a total +5 BAB.

[Thurbane]

Yeah, only actual HD and class levels count towards maximum skill ranks.

Lizardfolk Humanoid 2/Fighter 4 (6 total hit dice) has a maximum skill rank of 9 for class skills, and 4.5 for cross-class skills. Hide and Move Silently are not class skills for either its humanoid levels or fighter levels.

Racial Skills: A lizardfolk’s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 5 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Balance, Jump, and Swim. Lizardfolk have a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Jump, and Swim checks.

To qualify it would need a feat or feats (or other method) that adds Hide and Move Silently as class skills - and it has no such feats or methods. (I mean, the stat block above doesn't even seem to list its Fighter bonus feats).

I mean technically, maybe it contracted lycanthropy to add extra HD, took the skills as cross class skills, then got cured of lycanthropy?

Although I defer to my answer above - stat blocks are breeding grounds for errors, and a significant number of the devs and authors didn't have a very solid grasp of how many of the mechanics work.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Again, it's a monster stat block, not a PC, so you can hand-wave saying it's a jungle lizardfolk and not a swamp lizardfolk so he doesn't have two of those class skills, he has hide and move silently instead.

You could say he's got Half-Fiend 1 using a variant based on a fiend that has Hide and Move Silently as class skills. It doesn't even increase the CR, so you don't even need to buy off the level adjustment it gives you.

[Darg]

Character Level = the character's total number of levels (class levels)
Effective Character Level = Character Level + Racial Hit Dice + Level Adjustment.
They are not at all the same thing.
Where do you get effective spell level = spell level? What do you mean by effective spell level?

Add this number to the creature’s total Hit Dice, including class levels, to get the creature’s effective character level (ECL).

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies.

If "effective" means the same thing universally, the creature could qualify. I'm not saying that it's right, just that by technicality it isn't wrong either. As an answer to the OP it's not technically inaccurate. That said, the skills line isn't even legal if you calculate skill ranks. 37 to spend and even if all skills are class skills the creature is overspent by 5.

[sreservoir]

If "effective" means the same thing universally, the creature could qualify. I'm not saying that it's right, just that by technicality it isn't wrong either. As an answer to the OP it's not technically inaccurate. That said, the skills line isn't even legal if you calculate skill ranks. 37 to spend and even if all skills are class skills the creature is overspent by 5.

The ranks implied should be 0 Balance (+4 racial), 3 Climb (+3 Str), 1 Handle Animal (+1 Wis), 5 Hide, 7 Jump (+4 racial, +3 Str), 3 Listen (+1 Wis), 5 Move Silently, 4 Spot (+1 Wis), and 9 Swim (+4 racial, +3 Str). As long as Hide and Move Silently are treated as class skills for the RHD the rest seems to check out.

[Thurbane]

So we're assuming that a stat block that couldn't even get the number of feats right was using some kind of home-brewed alternate racial skill set for Lizardfolk, rather than the author made an error?

...suddenly my lycanthropy scenario is seeming more and more plausible.

[noob]

So we're assuming that a stat block that couldn't even get the number of feats right was using some kind of home-brewed alternate racial skill set for Lizardfolk, rather than the author made an error?

...suddenly my lycanthropy scenario is seeming more and more plausible.

I remember the devs not really knowing whenever you get skill ranks before choosing a class or after (the player manual is clear but which dev reads it?).
If you get them before (which is not the case if you use the player manual as a reference) then the lizard could have qualified for the prc at the same level as it entered it.

[SirNibbles]

I remember the devs not really knowing whenever you get skill ranks before choosing a class or after (the player manual is clear but which dev reads it?).
If you get them before (which is not the case if you use the player manual as a reference) then the lizard could have qualified for the prc at the same level as it entered it.

Unlike the basic classes found in the Player’s Handbook, characters must meet requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement (see page 58 of the Player’s Handbook) apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class.
Dungeon Master's Guide, page 176

Level Advancement 1. Choose Class 2. Base Attack Bonus 3. Base Save Bonus 4. Ability Score 5. Hit Points 6. Skill Points 7. Feats 8. Spells 9. Class Features
Player's Handbook, page 58

You cannot qualify for the PrC by entering the PrC.

[Unavenger]

You cannot qualify for the PrC by entering the PrC.

It's extraordinary that you cited the Player's Handbook's clarity in saying that you do not get skill ranks before you take a level, in response - as though to rebut it - to a post which mentioned that it was clear and that you do not get skill ranks before you take a level.

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah seriously. Noob wasn't saying "the designers think X, therefore X must be true", they were saying "the designers think X, therefore the designers are idiots who don't know their own game". It was explicitly being used as an example of how the designers don't know what they're doing (ie "they dont even realize that's not how skills work").

[SirNibbles]

It's extraordinary that you cited the Player's Handbook's clarity in saying that you do not get skill ranks before you take a level, in response - as though to rebut it - to a post which mentioned that it was clear and that you do not get skill ranks before you take a level.

I know, I was just providing the source to which he was referring.

[Darg]

It's funny how the DMG references page 58 of the handbook and yet the handbook doesn't reinforce what it says. It simply says to make changes according to an itemized list and never mentions that you have to follow the order of the list. This is why there is confusion. One person's book conflicts with the 3-8 other people at the table.

[sreservoir]

There's also has this line:

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.

I don't think the writers were on the same page at all as to whether the order was supposed to be significant.

[Darg]

Class Skill Max Ranks: The maximum number of skill ranks a character can have in a class skill is equal to his or her character level + 3. A class skill is a skill frequently associated with a particular class—for example, Spellcraft is a class skill for wizards. Class skills are listed under each class description in this chapter (see also Table 4–2: Skills, page 59, for more information on skills).

Level: “Character level” is the total level of the character. It derives from overall XP earned and is used to determine when feats and ability score boosts are gained, as per Table 3–2: Experience and Level-Dependent Benefits. “Class level” is the level of the character in a particular class, as per the individual class tables. For a single-class character, character level equals class level.

The DMG from back in 2001 lacks the level advancement clause for prestige classes.

[Vaern]

Unlike the basic classes found in the Player’s Handbook, characters must meet requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement (see page 58 of the Player’s Handbook) apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class.
Dungeon Master's Guide, page 176

Level Advancement 1. Choose Class 2. Base Attack Bonus 3. Base Save Bonus 4. Ability Score 5. Hit Points 6. Skill Points 7. Feats 8. Spells 9. Class Features
Player's Handbook, page 58

You cannot qualify for the PrC by entering the PrC.

Interesting that you don't advance your class features or spells until after choosing a feat. That makes a bit of a difference. Means I can't pick up a good number of reserve feats like Storm Blast when leveling a sorcerer up to 6th level because I have to pick a feat before I have the 3rd level spells to qualify for it, and 3rd level wizards don't qualify for feats requiring 2nd level spells until after they've chosen their feat.
The description of Extra Spell, which uses a level 4 sorcerer gaining either a 0-level or 1st-level spell when taking the feat, is inaccurate because he has not yet learned or gained the ability to cast any 2nd level spells. His highest level spells upon taking the feat are 1st level, and he can therefore only learn extra cantrips at that time.
Unless it's stated or assumed somewhere that you're allowed to make these changes in whatever order you decide is most beneficial rather than in the order listed, of course.

[Thurbane]

Yeah, to be honest, a good deal of the order of levelling up is not very intuitive - a LOT of tables don't follow that order of operations precisely.

[Vaern]

Yeah, to be honest, a good deal of the order of levelling up is not very intuitive - a LOT of tables don't follow that order of operations precisely.

I've never paid and attention to it myself. Leveling up at basically any take I've played at generally consists of rolling hp, going left to right across my class table to advance BAB, saves, class features, and spells, then skills and feats, with no regard at all for any sort of "proper" order of operations.
But apparently it's there, which makes potential ramifications worth noting for anyone who cares to pay attention to it.

[PrismCat21]

with no regard at all for any sort of "proper" order of operations.
But apparently it's there, which makes potential ramifications worth noting for anyone who cares to pay attention to it.

There's debate about that really. The Player's Handbook tells you to make those changes and lists them out with a description on how to make those changes. It says nothing about making those changes in any particular order. It just lists what they are.
People have simply chosen to follow the sequence in which they're introduced. It keeps the process relatively simple and ordered. An easy template to follow.

Now, most of those changes can't be made until you choose your class (#1), but Ability Score (#4) and Feats (#7) can potentially be chosen sooner.

If your character has just attained 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, or 20th character level, choose on of his or her ability scores and raise it by 1 point. .... It's the overall character level, not the class level, that counts for this adjustment.

Upon attaining 3rd level, and at every third level thereafter ... , the character gains on feat of your choice. ... As with ability score increases, it is the overall character level, not the class level, that determines when a character gets a new feat.

There's really no reason you can't make those changes first, other than because of 'accepted practice'.

[SirNibbles]

Interesting that you don't advance your class features or spells until after choosing a feat. That makes a bit of a difference. Means I can't pick up a good number of reserve feats like Storm Blast when leveling a sorcerer up to 6th level because I have to pick a feat before I have the 3rd level spells to qualify for it, and 3rd level wizards don't qualify for feats requiring 2nd level spells until after they've chosen their feat.
The description of Extra Spell, which uses a level 4 sorcerer gaining either a 0-level or 1st-level spell when taking the feat, is inaccurate because he has not yet learned or gained the ability to cast any 2nd level spells. His highest level spells upon taking the feat are 1st level, and he can therefore only learn extra cantrips at that time.
Unless it's stated or assumed somewhere that you're allowed to make these changes in whatever order you decide is most beneficial rather than in the order listed, of course.

The "A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite." clause would seem to solve that issue. (Player's Handbook, page 87)