Kang the Conqueror in the MCU

[Palanan]

So, the rumor is that Jonathan Majors has been cast as Kang the Conqueror for Ant-Man 3, and there's all manner of excitable speculation about what that could mean.

I'm not that familiar with the character, but he seems to be an A-list villain, which seems like a tall order for Ant-Man to be dealing with. Apparently in the comics his daughter becomes a hero as well, so there's more speculation about the Young Avengers and their possible introduction to the MCU.

Even reading a brief summary of Kang's history is a little mind-stretching--and since most audiences probably won't have heard of them, I have to wonder how they're going to introduce him.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Kang isn't one character. Depending on what's still in-continuity, he's up to 5. So it's looking like they're starting to go into time travel shenanigans for the next major arc. Ant-Man is one of the few heroes who can deal with Kang, since he can go to places that are time-neutral.

[No brains]

Who's been cast for Kodos?

[JadedDM]

I am no comic book scholar, but from what little I know about Kang, he is a time traveler from the future, and also, he tends to be connected to the Fantastic Four? I half wonder if this might be the way they merge the Fantastic Four into the MCU then? Via time travel shenanigans?

[Julian84]

I am no comic book scholar, but from what little I know about Kang, he is a time traveler from the future, and also, he tends to be connected to the Fantastic Four? I half wonder if this might be the way they merge the Fantastic Four into the MCU then? Via time travel shenanigans?

Actually, this makes me think they could introduce the Fantastic Four with the Quantum Realm. Instead of traveling into space, they're jumping off Pym's research and exploring the QR when they get hit by a wave of radiation that grants them their powers. It'd even be a way to tie in Doctor Doom if they wanted to go that route again, since the QR machine could have been developed by Doom and Reed and it explodes in Doom's face.

Anyhow, I'm hype for Kang. I doubt we'll see Immortus, Rama-Tut, Iron Lad, or the Scarlet Centurion, but I think Endgame opens a great door for more time shenanigans from the master of time shenaniganery. It'd be cool to see Scott react to Kang's future empire.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I honestly really hope they leave Doom fallow for another decade. He probably needs a dedicated origin movie for himself rather than getting crammed in with the F4 anyway.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I had no idea who Kang was prior to the announcement, but I had no idea who Thanos was prior to the MCU either and his arch turned out decent.

My big concern isn’t for any particular character or lack thereof, but that now that the MCU’s getting so big that it’s going to start tripping all over itself. :S

I honestly really hope they leave Doom fallow for another decade. He probably needs a dedicated origin movie for himself rather than getting crammed in with the F4 anyway.

Doom getting his own movie would be awesome. I’d actually rather see him than the Fantastic Four.

[Keltest]

I had no idea who Kang was prior to the announcement, but I had no idea who Thanos was prior to the MCU either and his arch turned out decent.

My big concern isn’t for any particular character or lack thereof, but that now that the MCU’s getting so big that it’s going to start tripping all over itself. :S



Doom getting his own movie would be awesome. I’d actually rather see him than the Fantastic Four.

I'd like a twist where Doom is the protagonist of the movie, and the F4 are the antagonists. He's clearly a villain, but the movie follows him, not the F4 who are kind of just doing their thing in the background. I think it would be a much better take on the story than rehashing the same plot for the 3rd or 4th time now.

[Kitten Champion]

I want a good Fantastic Four movie, just once. Both attempts have been trying to chase a trend in other successful Superhero movies - be it Raimi or Nolan's work - rather than trying to do a Fantastic Four movie that extends from the material on which is based. I want outlandish science fantasy adventure in a Kirby-esque universe of colours, built around a functional if unconventional family of Superheroes/explorers. Not an obnoxious sitcom or gritty realism.

As to Kang, I think he has the chassis for a great character arc because he can legitimately be a "hero of his own story"-kind of character with potentially sympathetic if not outright heroic motivations who can nevertheless be at odds with all the Marvel Heroes due to different priorities. Plus, yeah, this leads in from the time thing from the last arc.

Most of the reason I don't particular like Kang as a character in the works I've seen him in is his personality is fairly flat, like a Doctor Doom except without the underlying melodramatic qualities that makes Doom endearing. This is the MCU though, so I'm inclined to believe they'd make him more entertaining... not always, I mean the MCU certainly has its flat villains, but they've also taken fairly pedestrian ones and given them much more life.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Julian84
…I think Endgame opens a great door for more time shenanigans from the master of time shenaniganery.

Gah. Between Endgame and Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., I’m thoroughly burned out on time travel.

And I really don’t need to see another attempt at the Fantastic Four. The one with Chris Evans (presumably the obnoxious sitcom version) was so gratingly bad I couldn’t watch more than five minutes at a time. Definitely a property that can bury itself in the riverbed for a while.

A standalone movie about Doom, I’d watch in a heartbeat. The X-Men had their own tussle with Doom, way back when, and Doom vs. mutants could make for some nice fireworks.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The problem with Doom is that you'd need to pare some of the more problematic elements away. Starting with his being 'gypsy' (I won't say Romany, because he's really just a pastiche of bad gypsy stereotypes when they use that). I'm not sure they can use him as a sorcerer either.

[TeChameleon]

Dunno if I'd say that Doom's a pastiche of bad gypsy stereotypes- his father was a medical doctor, after all- the only real 'stereotype' I'm seeing is that his mother was a sorceress, which is... well, stereotype-adjacent, at the very least. And Doom has some potential as a tie-in here, as Kang has strong roots with (variably) Doom or Reed Richards, as a descendant of one or the other of them, or possibly being Doom himself.

My worry is that they'll make Kang very generic-looking, where you wouldn't even blink to see him in any number of Sci-Fi properties, when his comic incarnation has a very distinctive (albeit sort of weird) look, with a blue faceplate, and purplish armour with a loose forest green... over... thing. Don't have to go perfectly copying it, but it would be nice if he was allowed some colour (unlike so very, very many of the MCU villains).

And yeah, Pharaoh Rama-Tut, Immortus, Iron Lad, and the Scarlet Centurion are probably no-shows except maybe as throwaway gags.

... speaking of time shenanigans and the Quantum Realm, why did Scott only age a few hours in five years, but Janet seemed to age more-or-less in real time? Because she looked to be roughly the same age as Hank did when she popped out

[Hopeless]

Regarding Janet that might explain the warning she gave about wandering around in the Quantum Realm to Scott.

[Julian84]

I honestly really hope they leave Doom fallow for another decade. He probably needs a dedicated origin movie for himself rather than getting crammed in with the F4 anyway.

While it'd be easy and convenient to throw Doom in under those circumstances, I'd actually expect for Feige to go with Mole Man and his monsters for the first FF movie in the MCU, since they have connections to the Eternals through the Deviants. MCU does like its connected backstories when introducing new characters. Feige as well seems to enjoy adapting early villains and their origin comics such as putting the Vulture into Homecoming and Mysterio into Far From Home. Given the FF are about as important to Marvel as Spider-Man or the X-Men, I'd expect he'd give them a similar treatment, something classic.

Gah. Between Endgame and Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., I’m thoroughly burned out on time travel.

That's fair. I could see the extent of the time travel being "go to past, go to future", where it's about as important as flying from New York to Wakanda.

Dunno if I'd say that Doom's a pastiche of bad gypsy stereotypes- his father was a medical doctor, after all- the only real 'stereotype' I'm seeing is that his mother was a sorceress, which is... well, stereotype-adjacent, at the very least.

And yeah, Pharaoh Rama-Tut, Immortus, Iron Lad, and the Scarlet Centurion are probably no-shows except maybe as throwaway gags.

It really depends on the writer. Sometimes Doom is given problematic gypsy stereotypes, sometimes he's got a bit of a red scare thing going on, sometimes it's a sympathy for the devil thing where he really could save everyone if they just allowed him to make the necessary sacrifices... And other times he's just a really flat, generic villain.

I have a soft spot for Kang's ridiculous amount of identities and timelines, so I'll admit I'd hope to see some references to his other personas

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I'm not sure they can use him as a sorcerer either.

I’m not familiar with the rest, but why couldn’t they use him as a sorcerer? We’ve already got Dr. Strange, and IIRC one of the people to show up in Guardians of the Galaxy 2’s many, many stingers was Sorcerer Supreme for another planet, so it’s not like they can’t use magic or that Kama-Taj has a monopoly on it.

[Psyren]

Actually, this makes me think they could introduce the Fantastic Four with the Quantum Realm. Instead of traveling into space, they're jumping off Pym's research and exploring the QR when they get hit by a wave of radiation that grants them their powers.

I like this because it's similar to their Ultimate origins, so long as they're not made teenagers.

I honestly really hope they leave Doom fallow for another decade. He probably needs a dedicated origin movie for himself rather than getting crammed in with the F4 anyway.

His origin is very tied to them though. I don't think he needs to be the villain right away (which is the mistake that, well, EVERY FF MOVIE has made so far), but introducing him alongside them, even if just in a post-credits stinger after their first outing, is a good idea.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I’m not familiar with the rest, but why couldn’t they use him as a sorcerer? We’ve already got Dr. Strange, and IIRC one of the people to show up in Guardians of the Galaxy 2’s many, many stingers was Sorcerer Supreme for another planet, so it’s not like they can’t use magic or that Kama-Taj has a monopoly on it.

I've lost track amid the various retcons, but Doom studied under the Ancient One at Kamar Taj with Baron Mordo (and in some versions, also with Strange). Not sure how much of that is still canon.

And among other 'gypsyisms' besides black magic is Doom being a criminal (theft (of scientific resources)), kidnapping children, subverting governments by various means, smuggling, human trafficking, forgery, etc. Really, there's just too much. Make Doom a scientist and despot and you have enough plot points to go around.

[Tyrant]

And yeah, Pharaoh Rama-Tut, Immortus, Iron Lad, and the Scarlet Centurion are probably no-shows except maybe as throwaway gags.

From what I know of Kang, aren't Rama-Tut and Immortus just him at different moments in time? Rama-Tut being one of his early attempts at time travel (to ancient Egypt) and Immortus being him from some indeterminate future point where he has given up conquest? I would think the odds of Immortus showing up would be pretty good as there are a few stories where he and Kang are at odds.

As to Kang, I think he has the chassis for a great character arc because he can legitimately be a "hero of his own story"-kind of character with potentially sympathetic if not outright heroic motivations who can nevertheless be at odds with all the Marvel Heroes due to different priorities. Plus, yeah, this leads in from the time thing from the last arc.

Most of the reason I don't particular like Kang as a character in the works I've seen him in is his personality is fairly flat, like a Doctor Doom except without the underlying melodramatic qualities that makes Doom endearing. This is the MCU though, so I'm inclined to believe they'd make him more entertaining... not always, I mean the MCU certainly has its flat villains, but they've also taken fairly pedestrian ones and given them much more life.

Isn't Kang's motivation essentially that he was bored with how peaceful the future was so he started conquering and time travelling to try to find a real challenge/reason for being? I can see how he would see himself as a hero in his own story, but I'm not sure I can see how the audience might.

I've lost track amid the various retcons, but Doom studied under the Ancient One at Kamar Taj with Baron Mordo (and in some versions, also with Strange). Not sure how much of that is still canon.

And among other 'gypsyisms' besides black magic is Doom being a criminal (theft (of scientific resources)), kidnapping children, subverting governments by various means, smuggling, human trafficking, forgery, etc. Really, there's just too much. Make Doom a scientist and despot and you have enough plot points to go around.

I guess I'm not seeing the problem here. A group has certain stereotypes about them (subverting governments is a new one on me when it comes to gypsies), so in fiction a person can't ever be one of these people and also a criminal? magic user? etc. That's absurd. This is like saying the Mandarin can't be a martial artist because that's an Asian stereotype (and in film, it is). The logical conclusion is that kung-fu movies can't ever star Asians again, which is beyond absurd. It's all in how you handle it.

Is Doom more likely to focus on this stereotype or is he more likely to focus on being a dude in armor who rules his country with a (lovingly) iron fist while trying to crush the cursed Richards(!!!!)? You're talking about a small part of his back story that is very unlikely to be a heavy focus of any film involving him. Dr. Strange had to go to wanna-be Tibet to learn the mystic arts. That seems to heavily lean into stereotypes (and alter them to appease a certain market that would rather we all forget Tibet) and Marvel had no real problem with that.

[Kitten Champion]

Isn't Kang's motivation essentially that he was bored with how peaceful the future was so he started conquering and time travelling to try to find a real challenge/reason for being? I can see how he would see himself as a hero in his own story, but I'm not sure I can see how the audience might.

A consistent Kang characterization seems somewhat tricky, given the number of Kangs and Kang-like substitutes there are there's a multitude of motivations ascribed to them. I was thinking of the Kang from the Earth's Mightiest Heroes cartoon apparently, where he goes into the past because his timeline was devastated and lover was left in a coma - by what Kang concluded somehow - due to Captain America, and when his initial plan to tackle Captain America directly failed he decided to go back to conquer present Earth directly. Making him kind of like Mr. Freeze were he also a far future despot.

There are a couple versions where something similar happens in the comics, the people in the past are going to screw things up so he's going to aggressively correct it in his usual aggressive and overblown fashion.

[Soepvork]

... speaking of time shenanigans and the Quantum Realm, why did Scott only age a few hours in five years, but Janet seemed to age more-or-less in real time? Because she looked to be roughly the same age as Hank did when she popped out

Maybe because Paul Rudd never ages?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Also because they didn't want to suddenly have Janet being younger than her daughter. Even though Michael Douglas rolls that way.

[Mordar]

I read this and immediately got bad feelings. Not because of the actor...because of the inclusion of another high-power character from the books that will almost certainly be reduced to a farcical character in the movies. Kang was (at least when I was reading regularly) a team-level villain. Ant-man, in this incarnation, is primarily a humor-driven character/sub-series. Given the precedent of other cosmic powers turned into comic farces (Collector, Grandmaster) and non-cosmic high power villains (Mandarin) lampshaded, I can only assume this is number three in that line.

Kind of a shame, in my mind. I'm not sure what I'd do/want for a third Ant-man movie (though I don't think I'd necessarily be pushing for another Ant-man movie), but a team-level villain isn't it.

Of course, I fully accept the egg on the face if Kang is the set-up for whole of this phase of movies, and he's behind the scenes in this film.

- M

[Friv]

Of course, I fully accept the egg on the face if Kang is the set-up for whole of this phase of movies, and he's behind the scenes in this film.

- M

I've been speculating for a while that the next phase of Marvel is going to be just going all-in with time travel and multiversal nonsense, and Kang seems like a pretty solid choice to be the behind-the-scenes big bad (or several of them fighting each other.)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Friv
I've been speculating for a while that the next phase of Marvel is going to be just going all-in with time travel and multiversal nonsense....

That would be one way to tie together what seems like a pretty weak set of films, with the exception of Dr. Strange.

Spiderman: Far From Home already raised the concept of parallel Earths in a complex multiverse, and I think that was the first Phase 4 movie, so this could be their way of letting us know there's more where that came from.

Originally Posted by TeChameleon
... speaking of time shenanigans and the Quantum Realm, why did Scott only age a few hours in five years, but Janet seemed to age more-or-less in real time? Because she looked to be roughly the same age as Hank did when she popped out....

One difference is that Janet's entry into the Quantum Realm was uncontrolled, essentially a one-way ticket given the technology of the time. Scott's entry was part of a controlled experiment conducted with technology designed to bring people back from the Quantum Realm. That difference, between one-way and round-trip, may have caused time to behave differently for each of them.

.

[TeChameleon]

Ah, so the Janet-aging thing doesn't seem to have been explained, and they just hoped we didn't think about it too hard, gotcha.

They have promised that the Collector and the Grandmaster would be treated more seriously in later movies, if I'm remembering correctly.

Y'know, this is probably wishful thinking, but I'd be sort of curious, if the MCU is going all-in on multiversal nonsense, whether or not they'd be introducing one of their multiverse teams (in order of age, and the order in which I'd be most excited about them because I'm old, the Captain Britain Corps, the Exiles, or the Spider-verse crew).

[Palanan]

Janet seems to have aged pretty much in realtime, since she mentioned that she'd been down there for thirty years, which corresponds to her absence from the normal world. It's the Scott Lang side of things which is a little confusing.

As for Collector and Grandmaster, I'd written them off. I'd assumed that Thanos killed the Collector at Knowhere, since Big Purple seemed to really hate the guy. I'm not familiar with either character from the comics, so hadn't really thought about them past the credits scene in Ragnarok.

[brionl]

Ah, so the Janet-aging thing doesn't seem to have been explained, and they just hoped we didn't think about it too hard, gotcha.

A Wizard Quantum Mechanic did it.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Y'know, this is probably wishful thinking, but I'd be sort of curious, if the MCU is going all-in on multiversal nonsense, whether or not they'd be introducing one of their multiverse teams (in order of age, and the order in which I'd be most excited about them because I'm old, the Captain Britain Corps, the Exiles, or the Spider-verse crew).

There’s already going to be a Spider-verse 2, but given the occasionally-strained nature of the relationship between Sony and Disney/Marvel, I’ll be surprised if they integrate it into the MCU. At least, if I was Sony I’d keep it separate in case the MCU deal goes down the drain; my understanding is that they have to churn out a Spider-man movie every few years to keep the rights and that’s probably easier when they have complete control over at least one series.

That said, the Morbius trailer was dropping MCU hints, so I guess we’ll see.

Captain Britain probably has better odds, IIRC there was an Easter egg for him in Endgame.

[Psyren]

I read this and immediately got bad feelings. Not because of the actor...because of the inclusion of another high-power character from the books that will almost certainly be reduced to a farcical character in the movies. Kang was (at least when I was reading regularly) a team-level villain.

Kang might be "team-level," but that doesn't mean his concept isn't inherently comical (pun intended.)

[Clertar]

Janet seems to have aged pretty much in realtime, since she mentioned that she'd been down there for thirty years, which corresponds to her absence from the normal world. It's the Scott Lang side of things which is a little confusing.

He ended up time-travelling on his way out of the Quantum Realm, didn't he? That was in the plot of Endgame. He never spent the IRL time in there, unlike Janet.