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2020-09-23, 11:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
Re: Disarm Action, is it worth it? Ever?!
I have found that disarming isn't as good against martials, who can just equip a backup weapon. Bit very effective against casters, who for some reason don't always have focuses at hand.
Also, disarming is cool if the enemy has an obviously magical weapon at hand.Last edited by zinycor; 2020-09-23 at 11:15 AM.
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2020-09-23, 11:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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Re: Disarm Action, is it worth it? Ever?!
Based on my historical experience, no. I think in all the time I've spent playing D&D I've only seen Disarm (and it's counterpart, Sunder) used twice, and one of those times was me.
It may be very impressive in cinema, but in D&D games, players just don't seem to think it's worth it to spend an action to make an enemy less effective at dealing damage to them, when you could instead spend that action simply making the enemy dead.
There are a couple of reasons for this- first is that it's often not efficient in terms of actions. Lots of systems have rules that basically boil down to allowing players to scoop up an item with a free-action (or some short equivalent), while disarming usually requires an attack. This often means that the enemy can retrieve their weapon in less time than it takes for you to get it out of their hands.
Compare this to games where you do see a lot of disarm-type mechanics, like WoW (in PvP) and DotA (or other MOBAs). In these games the fights are based around reflexes instead of resource-management, and several seconds of your character being unable to attack could be a huge portion of the fight. In D&D this would probably be equivalent to reliably disarming someone for several rounds with only a single action.
Second, it's a pretty niche move. The percentage of enemies that will be humanoid(ish) and that are attacking you with weapons that can be disarmed is probably pretty small. Even if you expanded the mechanics to allow sundering of Natural weapons (claws, horns, teeth, etc) with same set of mechanics, its still a situational moveset. By contrast, if you simply put your resources (feats, gold, levels, etc) into boosting your HP, AC, and spell-resistance, those things tend to be much more broadly applicable, in addition to just being flat-out easier (less optimization required).
Finally, and this point probably depends somewhat on the game and version, but my experience with D&D 5E has been that it's very rocket-tag heavy. The enemy is almost always hitting our tanks for 50%+ of their HP and threatening to 1-shot our casters and rogues, so trying to hang back and play rope-a-dope with them just means we'll have to burn more healing spells later to get people back on their feet. It's better to just have everyone unload with their biggest damaging whatevers and hope we can down the enemy before they get off another round of attacks.
There are ways you could try and improve Disarming or any of the other combat maneuvers that didn't get as much support after 3.5 (Sundering, Feinting,Tripping, etc), but I feel like it would be a very finicky balance point. Like, it's not the kind of thing a random player will ever really try; instead it's the kind of thing someone will optimize for until they always succeed and then they never use anything else and it feels OP.
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2020-09-23, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Disarm Action, is it worth it? Ever?!
Do you think it's possible that there's a causal link between A and B? The whole point of Disarm is to mostly-neuter the enemy up front with one or two attacks, without going through all of his HP first, to make it less rocket-taggy. Reduce those big enemies from hitting for 50%+ of your HP to 8-15%, THEN kill them.
It was good enough for Inigo and it's good enough for me, where applicable. :)Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-09-23 at 11:44 AM.
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2020-09-23, 12:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
Re: Disarm Action, is it worth it? Ever?!
As pointed out by many, Disarming can be quite good. The more the enemy is reliant on their weapon, the better.
Like MaxWilson said, Githyanki are highly affected by the technique, due to having pretty fancy swords. Elves (both Drow and Shadar-Kai) also tend to be highly impacted by the loss of their weapons (due to the additional effects that getting hit by said weapons inflict), as does anyone who use magically or technologically powerful instruments of death, but most humanoids who rely on weapons will be severely diminished both in damage and in number of attack if you take away their weapon of choice.
Interestingly enough the adventure Storm King's Thunder make Hill Giants (and maybe Frost Giants too, but I'm not sure) pretty proficient at unarmed combat in case they lose their tools. It's true it doesn't compare to a Huge Greatsword but unarmed Multiattacks for 3d4+the Giant's great strength is still not bad, and quite awesome cinematically speaking.
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2020-09-23, 12:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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Re: Disarm Action, is it worth it? Ever?!
Yeah, in theory that would be a great strategy, but in practice it never seems to work out that way.
Optimizing for disarming sometimes works, but optimizing for making the enemy's HP go down faster ALWAYS works. And that's assuming the enemy doesn't just have a backup weapon they can draw, or spells they can resort to. And then furthermore, like I said my experience that with 5E is that a lot of the enemies go down pretty quick anyway, so you really just delay the end of the fight for a round where neither you nor your target dealt significant damage.
From the meta-perspective, if you're not fully up to speed on the disarm-rules, stopping to check them might discourage people from even trying, whereas "I make a standard attack" is the most basic thing everyone learns in D&D 101.
Plus (and I realize this varies from person-to-person) but trying something non-standard and failing at it somehow feels worse to me than just missing several attacks in a row. Like if I Full-attack the enemy and roll critical fumbles 3 times in a row, everyone chuckles a bit and thinks of how it will make a funny story later. But if I attempt a disarm and fail, I feel like everyone else at the table is rolling their eyes and going "ugh, why didn't you just attack him again; we could be done with this already". It's not so much about the effectiveness as it is about the PERCEPTION of how certain actions will be looked upon that may discourage people.
It's like Homer Simpson says: "You tried a non-standard tactic and it failed, therefor your should never-ever try any non-standard tactics again." Or something like that.Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2020-09-23 at 12:32 PM.
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2020-09-23, 12:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Disarm Action, is it worth it? Ever?!
(A) I feel like we're talking about different things. I'm talking tactics, not builds. If you're using DMG Disarm, there's no build optimization required; if you're using Battlemaster Disarm, it's just one maneuver that you have to pick up. (If you're using Fear spell disarm, or Command spell disarm, well, use it if you've already got the spell for other reasons.)
(B) It's hard for me to reconcile "enemies go down quick" with "enemies do 50%+ of your HP each round" except under the assumption that you tend to fight one or two enemies at a time. Surely you're not fighting a dozen 10 HP mooks who each hit for 50+ HP of damage apiece. Out of curiosity, what do fights at your table tend to look like? Right now I'm imagining stuff like one Fire Giant and a Giant Crocodile against an 8th level party, is that accurate?
(C) I understand how you feel, and in a thread titled "why doesn't anyone Disarm?" that would be the end of it. People don't do it because it feels bad to them, end of story. But this thread is about how effective it is, so if people don't do it merely because it feels bad, in the context of this thread that could mean they're missing an opportunity to do something more effectively.
If I were at a table where I attempted to Disarm the Fire Giant via DMG Disarm and failed, and someone was like, "Why don't you just attack him already?", I'd say, "I'm trying to make sure he can't cut you in half this round. It's no different from attacking the Fire Giant and failing to kill him because he has too much AC and many HP--sometimes it takes multiple attempts to succeed, but in this case I think you'll be hurt more if I let him keep his weapon because he has SO MANY HP."
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2020-09-23, 01:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Disarm Action, is it worth it? Ever?!
Yeah, optimization in this aspect is more for a system like 3.5 than 5E, but I've never seen it be popular in ANY addition so I was making more generalized comments.
(B) It's hard for me to reconcile "enemies go down quick" with "enemies do 50%+ of your HP each round" except under the assumption that you tend to fight one or two enemies at a time. Surely you're not fighting a dozen 10 HP mooks who each hit for 50+ HP of damage apiece. Out of curiosity, what do fights at your table tend to look like? Right now I'm imagining stuff like one Fire Giant and a Giant Crocodile against an 8th level party, is that accurate?
And if you accidentally split it then you now have 2 creatures each dealing that much damage each round (because being smaller doesn't decrease it's damage, apparently). In my experience (again, could be different for other players) it's not that hard for a standard 4th level party to do ~40 damage a round, so by trying to disarm, you just might be dragging the fight out for 3rd round's worth of damage to someone (the Black Pudding has about 85 HP).
Then you have plenty of spells that can deal damage with a number of dice equal to a player's level (or higher), such as Fireball or Inflict Wounds, i.e. ~50%+ of your HP every round.
(C) I understand how you feel, and in a thread titled "why doesn't anyone Disarm?" that would be the end of it. People don't do it because it feels bad to them, end of story. But this thread is about how effective it is, so if people don't do it merely because it feels bad, in the context of this thread that could mean they're missing an opportunity to do something more effectively.Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2020-09-23 at 01:25 PM.
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2020-09-23, 01:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
Re: Disarm Action, is it worth it? Ever?!
EDIT: As others have already pointed out, I spaced the mechanics on disarm, instead using the mechanics for grapple/push. The following argument is invalid, but I am leaving it unmodified so the posts of others in response make sense.
Honestly, I think the underlined issue is the underlying issue. In WotC-era D&D, you really need to build a character towards a combat strategy. In 5e, it is not that hard. Optimal would be maxed Strength, Expertise in Athletics, perhaps advantage with Strength checks, wielding a weapon/weapons/weapon&shield combo where you can readily have a free hand, and (edge case issue) be able to still attack your opponent even if you can't actually use their weapon in the one hand you used to pick theirs up (super-optimal case might be guy who normally wields a longsword two-handed, but can still deliver an OA with it one-handed while holding the enemy's greatsword in one hand). It's a lot better than 3e with requiring multiple feats to be good enough at it to bother. Still, you have to plan for it, and are best when you build towards the concept. In 2e AD&D, for example, the best way to optimize for disarming was the same way you optimized for attacking (weapon specialization, and maxing out your Strength and level). May other systems, from GURPS to Savage World to the White Wolf games (I think, some of these are remembrances from a long time ago), if there is a disarm technique, the best way to be good at it is to be good at your basic weapon ability. Obviously with HERO SYSTEM you can build a specialty disarmer, but that's part and parcel of the game design ethos. Given that there are going to be so many non-disarm-able enemies, there won't be a lot of people making that build, but because the build exists, the designers couldn't make default combatant too good at it, so it rarely becomes a situationally good choice for them.Last edited by Willie the Duck; 2020-09-24 at 07:19 AM.
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2020-09-23, 02:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Disarm Action, is it worth it? Ever?!
(A) Yes, WotC has this tendency, but DMG Disarm is one case where this isn't even true. Disarm is a contest of your attack roll vs. the enemy's Str (Athletics) or Dex (Acrobatics). Since optimizing for damage includes optimizing for a good to-hit bonus (among other things), that means that if you're damage-optimized, you're already pretty decent at disarming!
A creature can use a weapon attack to knock a weapon or another item from a target's grasp. The attacker makes an attack roll contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) check or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check. If the attacker wins the contest, the attack causes no damage or other ill effect, but the defender drops the item.
The attacker has disadvantage on its attack roll if the target is holding the item with two or more hands. The target has advantage on its ability check if it is larger than the attacking creature, or disadvantage if it is smaller.
In fact, even if you're not optimized for damage, you may still be pretty good at disarming. A bog-standard sword-and-shield Defense style Purple Dragon Knight 6 has pretty crummy damage, but he's probably decent at grappling/proning/disarming. Even a mere Tiny Servant with +5 to hit has an 8% chance of Disarming a Githyanki Supreme Commander, 16% in heavy obscurement; against an enemy with a one-handed weapon you're looking at 14% (Narzugon) or 19% (Soul Monger), rising to 22% and 28% respectively in heavy obscurement. Those aren't bad odds for a cheap minion!
See https://anydice.com/program/1df4b for details.
Spoiler: Possibly beating a dead horse
(B) Athletics helps you grapple/prone or defend against disarming attempts. It doesn't help you DMG Disarm other people. Ditto advantage on strength checks--doesn't help.
(C) I really don't think you do have to plan for it. Having a good attack roll and lots of attacks is something you're trying to do anyway, whether you're a GWM/PAM Fighter or an Enchanter with a swarm of Tiny Minions or a Moon Druid with conjured Quicklings. The only ones who are moderately un-good at disarming are single-attack specialists like Arcane Tricksters with Booming Blade, and even they aren't bad per se because they have fairly easy ways to get advantage on their attack roll. (Hide behind something, then pop out and shoot an arrow with advantage, aiming for a Disarm.) They just have a high opportunity cost.Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-09-23 at 02:47 PM.
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2020-09-23, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2020
Re: Disarm Action, is it worth it? Ever?!
Roleplaying or Rollplaying?
Either style is fun, but sometimes you can't just whack someone to death.
If Mad King Aerys has had your sister enchanted to attack you, the holiday times are going to be rather dour if you elect to kill her and have your sister Raised from the Dead, rather than just disarming and restraining her.
Max covered the fact that disarm is easy to use, no optimization required.
Fear is an awesome spell because of the fact you drop what is in your hands.Last edited by Satori01; 2020-09-23 at 05:19 PM.
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2020-09-23, 06:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Disarm Action, is it worth it? Ever?!
Bad example as melee fighting can allow you to knock someone out no matter how much damage is done.
You just knock her out, easy peasy rules as written.
That being said, I’m for tactics in battle, especially beyond “I whack him with my sword”.
I’ll ignore the “Role-playing vs Roll-playing” false equivalency you threw out there, though. It doesn’t bring anything into the discussion and only divides people for petty reasons.
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2020-09-23, 09:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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2020-09-24, 04:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
Re: Disarm Action, is it worth it? Ever?!
Nale is no more, he has ceased to be, his hit points have dropped to negative ten, all he was is now dust in the wind, he is not Daniel Jackson dead, he is not Kenny dead, he is final dead, he will not pass through death's revolving door, his fate will not be undone because the executives renewed his show for another season. His time had run out, his string of fate has been cut, the blood on the knife has been wiped. He is an Ex-Nale! Now can we please resume watching the Order save the world.
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2020-09-24, 07:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
Re: Disarm Action, is it worth it? Ever?!
If you want to Disarm, you are just doing a normal attack with your normal attack mod. If you want to grab the weapon once the enemy is disarmed, you need a free hand.
So literally all you need to do for "optimizing"/"building" a disarm master in 5e is maxing out your attacking stat, not using a shield, and *maybe* if you want to really, really do it have extra attacks and/or a way to get advantage on attack rolls.
So I guess if you wanted to build the Disarm Master you need like, a Greatsword-wielding or a Duelist-fighting-style Samurai.
EDIT: I read the rest of the thread afterward, sorry.Last edited by Unoriginal; 2020-09-24 at 07:21 AM.
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2020-09-24, 07:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
Re: Disarm Action, is it worth it? Ever?!
Yes, Max already pointed that out. I will add a disclaimer to my post noting it as mistaken.
Ah yes, to be able to trip/disarm/punish-for-moving on your opponents, while resisting them turning around and using sunder on your weapon. Plus, if you were disarmed, instead of drawing your own AoO, you could just use claws. Quite clever.Last edited by Willie the Duck; 2020-09-24 at 07:27 AM.
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2020-09-24, 07:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
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2020-09-24, 07:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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2020-09-24, 07:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
Re: Disarm Action, is it worth it? Ever?!
Another great-at-disarm class is the Monk, whose mechanics basically make them having a free hand guaranteed and whose attack number is only surpassed by Action Surge.
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2020-09-24, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Disarm Action, is it worth it? Ever?!
I don't think Monks can disarm with their third and optional fourth attack though, only with the first two attacks. Disarming, like grappling, is something that happens as part of the Attack action, not just any old attack.
So yeah, they're good, but not better than anyone else except for having more free hands to pick stuff up with.
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2020-09-24, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
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2020-09-24, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2013
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2020-09-24, 11:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
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2020-09-24, 12:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
Re: Disarm Action, is it worth it? Ever?!
It's the thread of corrections!
One more point on Monks -- because they are MAD, and perhaps are not using weapons* and thus not getting that plus to-hit if the weapon is magic, they might not be the the best. Is it possible that the best disarmers are archer fighters**? I am AFB, is there any limitation on ranged weapons?
*yes, yes, except for all the times they are.
**based on archery fighting style and semi-common magical bows/crossbows
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2020-09-24, 12:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Disarm Action, is it worth it? Ever?!
There are no limitations on ranged disarms (although maybe there should be), so yes, Archery + lots of attacks makes quite a good disarmer, but a bad weapon-denier because you're often not there to pick up the weapons***.
Disarming someone without disposing of the weapon isn't useless (it temporarily weakens the creature's opportunity attack, which can also make it easier for a different ally to snake in there and grab the weapon), but it adds enough inconvenience to be awkward.
I think the best disarmers-by-proxy are summoners.
*** yes, yes, except for all the times you are. :) Especially Crossbow Experts.
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2020-09-24, 01:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
Re: Disarm Action, is it worth it? Ever?!
As if there wasn't enough reason for the melee-fighters to weep, now we have guys with handcrossbows shooting their weapons out of their hands from 5' away, grabbing them, and running off with 'em.