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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default How many attacks should a warshaper get?

    Warshaper's morphic weapons ability allows for the addition of natural attacks as a move action, with no stated duration, and no limit to the number of weapons clearly established. So I'm coming to ask how you've handled (or seen handled) this ability? I recognize that there may not be an objectively 'right' answer. I'm more interested in seeing how others have handled this ability, and how it's worked for you.

    Thanks in advance!
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    Default Re: How many attacks should a warshaper get?

    Quote Originally Posted by Toliudar View Post
    Warshaper's morphic weapons ability allows for the addition of natural attacks as a move action, with no stated duration, and no limit to the number of weapons clearly established. So I'm coming to ask how you've handled (or seen handled) this ability? I recognize that there may not be an objectively 'right' answer. I'm more interested in seeing how others have handled this ability, and how it's worked for you.

    Thanks in advance!
    One reading of the RAW that makes sense to me (though probably is still overpowered) is that it says you can grow one natural attack you don't have, but that if you already have it, it instead grows to the next size category up. Therefore, once a warshaper has at least one of every listed type of natural attack possible, he can't gain any more natural attacks from the morphic weapons feature. (He could still beef each of them up a size category, though. But only one, since buffs from similar or identical sources don't stack.)

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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: How many attacks should a warshaper get?

    The last paragraph of Morphic Weapons says that the warshaper can 'change Morphic Weapons as often as it likes,' which I've always taken to mean that you can only have one new or improved Natural Weapon from the ability at a time, Wich feels reasonable and decently balanced since it does trigger Morphic Body for you too, without being overly powerful. The earlier suggestions of one of each would be decent as well, though keep in mind that it's equivalent to at least 8 feats for free (Dragontouched, Dragon Tail, Shape Soulmeld (Dragon Claws), Abberration Blood, Starspawn, Deepspawn, Jaws of Death, Extra Slam, Improved Natural Attack), assuming you are a Warforged, otherwise it takes even more.

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    Buufreak's Avatar

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    Default Re: How many attacks should a warshaper get?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    One reading of the RAW that makes sense to me (though probably is still overpowered) is that it says you can grow one natural attack you don't have, but that if you already have it, it instead grows to the next size category up. Therefore, once a warshaper has at least one of every listed type of natural attack possible, he can't gain any more natural attacks from the morphic weapons feature. (He could still beef each of them up a size category, though. But only one, since buffs from similar or identical sources don't stack.)
    I find that idea kinda... eh, iffy? It works for many cases, but what do you do when someone has 6 arms? Surely each arm pair deserves their own claws.

    Quote Originally Posted by RaiKirah View Post
    The last paragraph of Morphic Weapons says that the warshaper can 'change Morphic Weapons as often as it likes,'
    Never picked up on that. Seems legit enough.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: How many attacks should a warshaper get?

    We've always gone with the morphic weapons needing to grow out of an existing appendage.
    And we already have a rule limiting the number of natural weapons you can have per appendage to 1 so you get at most 1 per appendage less whatever you use to move around.

    The odd point is slams which potentially come from anywhere.
    I am rel.

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: How many attacks should a warshaper get?

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Two or more spells with instantaneous durations work cumulatively when they affect the same target.
    3.5 is particularly silent on effects that are instantaneous and discharge or instantaneous and last until another effect ends. Morphic Weapons is the latter as it is implied to only work in your alternate form which in most cases has a duration.

    This means it should stack with itself. However, there is the final line which implies that everytime you use the ability it changes the weapon rather than giving you more:

    A warshaper can change morphic weapons as often as it likes, even if it is using a shapechanging technique such as the polymorph spell or the wild shape class feature that doesn't allow subsequent changes after the initial transformation.
    The implication is that you can't dismiss the ability and therefore can only change weapons through further use of the ability. Meaning you can only have one attack through this ability. Although, this probably doesn't prevent upsizing of your weapons.
    Last edited by Darg; 2020-09-24 at 11:25 AM.

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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: How many attacks should a warshaper get?

    Quote Originally Posted by RaiKirah View Post
    The last paragraph of Morphic Weapons says that the warshaper can 'change Morphic Weapons as often as it likes,' which I've always taken to mean that you can only have one new or improved Natural Weapon from the ability at a time
    The issue I am having with this reading is the fact that it is morphic weapons and not morphic weapon, the plurality of the ability kind of ruins this interpretation for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by rel
    We've always gone with the morphic weapons needing to grow out of an existing appendage.
    And we already have a rule limiting the number of natural weapons you can have per appendage to 1 so you get at most 1 per appendage less whatever you use to move around.

    The odd point is slams which potentially come from anywhere.
    Yeah that is how we have always handled it, each part of the body can only have one natural weapon and you must already have that part of the body. Also we have taken it as either or, so if you were a snake you could increase the size of your bite attack or replace your bite with a gore attack, and you could also gain a sting or tail slap but couldn't increase the size of either.

    We handle slams based on size handwaving what the second one is coming from for larger forms.

    Doing still keeps it as a powerful ability without going to crazy.

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    Merellis's Avatar

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    Default Re: How many attacks should a warshaper get?

    I just rule they can go nuts and become the eldritch horror they wish to be.

    Then remind them later that no one is gonna miss a bear with tentacles, antlers, wings, and a tail.

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: How many attacks should a warshaper get?

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    The issue I am having with this reading is the fact that it is morphic weapons and not morphic weapon, the plurality of the ability kind of ruins this interpretation for me.
    While not as common, the plurality can also refer to the many different types available. Or it could be referring to its ability to affect different weapons. The confusion probably stems from using the proper name of the ability for reference even when only referring to a single weapon.

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    Default Re: How many attacks should a warshaper get?

    I've used the Warshaper in about three builds in the last four years with two different GMs. The way both interpreted it was that you could have a weapon per limb, but that some limbs could have different options, and you change that at will.

    So for example, a dire lion form has claws and a bite. Its limbs are a tail, four legs, and a neck/head. So in total I could have 6 weapons. However, if I wanted Horns (a gore attack), I'd have to neglect a Bite (since that also uses the head/neck 'limb'). If I wanted a Slam attack, I'd have to put it on my Tail or alternatively, give up a Claw attack on a leg for a Slam attack.

    Thus, I can change what I have as often as I like, and the plural "morphic weapons as often as it likes" has been used to mean "multiple different weapons". And a limb that would have no weapon beforehand is treated as a "null" state from which a new weapon could be manifested.

    Note that even with all of this, a PC would need to take Multiattack if they did not want to take big penalties to attack rolls for having all these extra attacks.

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    Default Re: How many attacks should a warshaper get?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildstag View Post
    Note that even with all of this, a PC would need to take Multiattack if they did not want to take big penalties to attack rolls for having all these extra attacks.
    Secondary natural weapons are a flat -5. Doesn't matter how many of them you have, it never gets worse than that. Rolling 6-8 attacks at the equivalent of your second BAB-based iterative is pretty good, although if it's your main attack means you probably do want Multiattack anyways.

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    Default Re: How many attacks should a warshaper get?

    Do Warshapers ever actually use weapons? They're all the main method of attack, and -5 still sucks if you can take a feat for an effective +3 bonus. Also because the likelihood of paying for multiple natural attacks on an amulet of +3-5 is prohibitively expensive. So you're likely going to need every attack bonus you can get...

    Or you can go Vow of Poverty and get that +5 to all of your weapons anyway...

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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: How many attacks should a warshaper get?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildstag View Post
    Do Warshapers ever actually use weapons? They're all the main method of attack, and -5 still sucks if you can take a feat for an effective +3 bonus. Also because the likelihood of paying for multiple natural attacks on an amulet of +3-5 is prohibitively expensive. So you're likely going to need every attack bonus you can get...

    Or you can go Vow of Poverty and get that +5 to all of your weapons anyway...
    I think you are a bit confused. Inside of natural attacks you have primary and secondary which are determined by your race/ the form you take. Primary attacks are always at your highest bab and all secondary attacks are at -5. Manufactured weapons or unarmed strike are always treated as the primary attack and all natural attacks are treated as secondary when you use either.

    Most of the time when I am using a natural attack blender I use unarmed strike as my primary attack and all the natural attacks as secondary attacks. There are other options like tail blades that can be used as manufactured weapons for primary attacks and still have claw attack but typically unarmed strike is the easiest and best choice.

    So while yes having multiattack is advisable having a bunch of secondary attacks at -5 really isn't that rough either. I often do a barbarian/ranger/fist of the forest/primeval using dire puma and rarely take multi attack but it still dishes out crazy amounts of damage.

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    Default Re: How many attacks should a warshaper get?

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    I think you are a bit confused. Inside of natural attacks you have primary and secondary which are determined by your race/ the form you take. Primary attacks are always at your highest bab and all secondary attacks are at -5. Manufactured weapons or unarmed strike are always treated as the primary attack and all natural attacks are treated as secondary when you use either.

    Most of the time when I am using a natural attack blender I use unarmed strike as my primary attack and all the natural attacks as secondary attacks. There are other options like tail blades that can be used as manufactured weapons for primary attacks and still have claw attack but typically unarmed strike is the easiest and best choice.

    So while yes having multiattack is advisable having a bunch of secondary attacks at -5 really isn't that rough either. I often do a barbarian/ranger/fist of the forest/primeval using dire puma and rarely take multi attack but it still dishes out crazy amounts of damage.
    I said "main attack" as did the guy above, not "primary attack". Yes, I know the difference between primary and secondary natural attacks; I would not have had multiple warshapers with 6 limbs of natural attacks without understanding that.

    I've rarely seen a player choose Warshaper and then also use manufactured weapons; Unarmed strike will almost always do comparable or less damage than a primary natural attack such as a bite or a gore (barring feats like "Superior Unarmed Strike").

    Late-game, natural attacks need every bonus they can get because paying for each to be considered magical and get enhancement bonuses (including effects such as bane) is prohibitively costly, weapon focus applies to each type of natural weapon (claw, bite, etc.), and they generally have less feat support in general than manufactured weapons. Thus, the only reliable ways to increase attack rolls are ability score modifiers and bab. When AC starts reaching 50-60, that -5 really friggin hurts.

    I've played two warshaper/primevals at that level. They needed that bonus, even with my Strength ending up in the 60s and as full a bab as possible. Especially when you factor Power Attack into the equation.

    Also, I can't imagine how much your Dire Puma Primeval suffered in late-game play. Once things start having damage reduction or immunities against non-magical weapons, that "unarmed strike AND natural weapon" attack pattern is going to be innately worse than just choosing either.

  15. - Top - End - #15
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: How many attacks should a warshaper get?

    So, from what I'm hearing, 1 per appendage (perhaps adding one for slam) has not had unreasonable results? I have no desire to become lovecraftian, but would like to be able to have the character shine in melee, which will likely be his focus in the group.
    Despair favours the status quo. It is a luxury we cannot afford. ~ Andrew Nikiforuk

    Quote Originally Posted by jakarta View Post
    I'm an English teacher. You are misapplying the concept of "singular they".
    If you want the full lecture we can do it in private.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: How many attacks should a warshaper get?

    AFB, but, IIRC, there are *2* different items to boost natural attacks.

    One, you pay by the limb. It gets prohibitively expensive fast.

    The other, you pay a set price, and it affects *all* limbs.

    IIRC, the latest costs just over 3x the cost of the former, and only provides "+X" enchantments, whereas the former could provide *any* weapon enchantments (like Flaming or Keen, for example).

    Also, Skin of the Hero.

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    Default Re: How many attacks should a warshaper get?

    I knew I'd miss an easy option. I've almost never messed with Psionics, so psionic items are completely unknown to me. That's a lot of bonuses for 77,000 gp.

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    Goblin

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    Default Re: How many attacks should a warshaper get?

    Quote Originally Posted by Toliudar View Post
    Warshaper's morphic weapons ability allows for the addition of natural attacks as a move action, with no stated duration, and no limit to the number of weapons clearly established. So I'm coming to ask how you've handled (or seen handled) this ability? I recognize that there may not be an objectively 'right' answer. I'm more interested in seeing how others have handled this ability, and how it's worked for you.

    Thanks in advance!
    I also followed the "1 per limb" rule, but I made a bit more complex. I defined a series of "body slots," each of which could provide one natural attack (or one pair of attacks, like "2 claws" or "2 slams"). The base damage values were 1d6 for all single weapons, and 1d4 for paired weapons, but you could grow them once with another use of Morphic Weapons.

    Ultimately, I decided to just make a homebrew class for it (Skinwalker, in my signature), and just went with "1 per limb" as a simple rule for Warshaper. Of course, I've not yet played one, and the one I DMed for only got to level 2 in the class before the game ended; so my actual in-game experience with it is pretty minimal.

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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: How many attacks should a warshaper get?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildstag View Post
    I said "main attack" as did the guy above, not "primary attack". Yes, I know the difference between primary and secondary natural attacks; I would not have had multiple warshapers with 6 limbs of natural attacks without understanding that.

    I've rarely seen a player choose Warshaper and then also use manufactured weapons; Unarmed strike will almost always do comparable or less damage than a primary natural attack such as a bite or a gore (barring feats like "Superior Unarmed Strike").

    Late-game, natural attacks need every bonus they can get because paying for each to be considered magical and get enhancement bonuses (including effects such as bane) is prohibitively costly, weapon focus applies to each type of natural weapon (claw, bite, etc.), and they generally have less feat support in general than manufactured weapons. Thus, the only reliable ways to increase attack rolls are ability score modifiers and bab. When AC starts reaching 50-60, that -5 really friggin hurts.

    I've played two warshaper/primevals at that level. They needed that bonus, even with my Strength ending up in the 60s and as full a bab as possible. Especially when you factor Power Attack into the equation.

    Also, I can't imagine how much your Dire Puma Primeval suffered in late-game play. Once things start having damage reduction or immunities against non-magical weapons, that "unarmed strike AND natural weapon" attack pattern is going to be innately worse than just choosing either.
    Sorry for the confusion there, normally main and primary are used by people interchangeably. I actually don't normally take warshaper or if I do I take it around level 20 or beginning of epic Fist of the Forest normally seems like a better choice. I have played three different primevals and never had an issue with dr. The first was gestalt with druid on the other side of the equation so just went with VoP and had no issues. Second one was a shifter and Shifter Savagery and other shifter feats plus wilding clasp were very useful. The third was a warforged and the fact that they retain their plating when wildshaping was leveraged.

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