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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: combat strategy challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Nhorianscum View Post
    It's a nice base to kinda discuss "what the giant do" from.
    Not really. They assume anyone with mental stat <12 is an idiot, which is.... eh. Their tactics are based on fales premises.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals get loose.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: combat strategy challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    Not really. They assume anyone with mental stat <12 is an idiot, which is.... eh. Their tactics are based on fales premises.
    This is an adequate description of most parties.

    Where it dooooes soooorta hold true...

    On a serious note:

    I'm not fully in agreement with the blog either because human being with opinions, but it is well written, entertaining, and gives a base for discussing heuristics as the writer lays out a thought process and goes about breaking down the monster(s) of the week in a formulaic manner that is replicable by the average reader.

    It's really good.

  3. - Top - End - #63
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: combat strategy challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    How is Haste enabling a second Sneak Attack?
    Use the haste action to attack on your turn. Use your action to ready an attack to trigger before your next turn (whatever appropriate trigger works in your game)

    Quote Originally Posted by 5eNeedsDarksun View Post
    Interesting that both good strategies revolve around what the (often maligned) Sorc does with the 4th (or 5th) level spell slot; I agree by the way.
    The only thing I'd add is that with the Polymorph option I generally wait a round or 2 for a couple of reasons: 1) Whatever character(s) are being polymorphed have more options and generally do more damage in normal form than in ape,potentially taking down enemies faster 2) It frees the sorcerer up to directly deal damage sooner, say fireball or some other 3rd level spell in this case, potentially taking down enemies faster, and 3) You can never 100% predict which of the party will be targeted or hit badly, so it allows you to Polymorph character(s) that most need the hp.
    While fair tactical points in general, I think the specifics of this situation actually make them worse.

    Following your path would likely lead to a greater number of lost resources. Significant hp loss for 1 or multiple characters - potentially spell slot resource drain to bring them back to full hp. Then using a 3rd level slot on fireball before the polymorh uses even more spell slot resources.

    Compare with the plymorph first tactic that doesn't require fireball and leads to none to very minimal PC hp loss.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I like it. I like it even more when people run scenarios in detail, because for me my favorite stuff to learn is the tricky little stuff (like Readying your Hypnotic Pattern to hit more giants), and I don't tend to learn that stuff without detail. For example, potentially in this scenario, we could have bought more rounds to kill giants by stationing a wolf in the right place on the map where the giant (1) has to treat it as difficult terrain, and (2) cannot stop on its square, and is therefore "forced" to attack the wolf instead of Dashing up to a sorcerer and braining him. We didn't get to see that because we just talked high-level intentions instead of how things actually play out.
    Generally the problem with readying an aoe spell to try to catch more enemies is that unless the initiative fell just perfectly then your allies are very likely to get in the way - causing you to either hit them or settle for the same or fewer enemies then you could have gotten to begin with. And there's always the inherent risk of ranged attacks to disrupt your concentration before the spell goes off. In this specific scenario it's likely the Barbarian engages in melee and so your best laid plans to catch all 3 in the AOE probably won't work.

    I don't know if this is an actual rule or not but in the games I play in and run a medium creature isn't going to prevent a huge creatures movement in the slightest. As long as the huge creature doesn't stop in the space he's free to move through it as if you weren't. He will still take the OA though. Assuming we aren't playing by my "walk over them" rule then having a wolf serve as a blocker would work. Alternatively the cleric could as well.

    Another fun thing is that characters can serve as 1/2 cover. So positioning the cleric in front of the sorcerer gives him +2 AC vs ranged attacks and may have a bit of a body blocking function as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by da newt View Post
    Good discussions all around, and I learned something - I hope you all did too.

    I went with a ~ deadly encounter (1700&*5 vs 2900*3), maybe I should have gone w/ 4 giants or more 'interesting' opponents ...

    Is this sort of thread worthwhile / interesting for you all? I like it.

    So what next? Should we continue to rehash this, or start a new thread with a new challenge / scenario?
    This is fun. I'm personally interested in lower resource cost solutions than the ones we used. Using so many of the sorcerers resources is a little rough - albeit most effective.
    Last edited by Frogreaver; 2020-09-26 at 09:45 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: combat strategy challenge

    Thanks all.

    I'm no expert, so I don't think I can provide a right answer at the end. I do like seeing what other folks would do and why. I have some free time, I can roll some of these out, but welcome other to give it a shot too.

    Max - wolf is med, giant is huge, so they can move through each other's space, but difficult terrain and cannot end turn in same space - a huge creature occupies a 15x15 ft space, so it costs the giant an extra 15' of movement to step over a wolf (RAW)? If I was DM I might hand wave that away as silly - for my simple mind, the idea that a 30" at the shoulder 90 lb wolf slows down an 18' tall giant is like 10" tall Pomeranians slowing me down ... but point taken - RAW you would be able to slow them down with a well placed picket of conjured animals.

    I envisioned the trees/bushes as big enough to provide visual cover, but insignificant cover for a giant thrown rock - I should have specified. Next time I'll try to fill in more blanks - bad guy's combat heuristics, specific distances, etc.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: combat strategy challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatoneGuy84 View Post
    ...
    Barbarian is out main front line, but someone need to go with him, Clerics the best option because he doesnt have much to do in this fight.
    ...
    So the Barbarian takes about 18 damage per turn per giant (when he has haste and rage and reckless attacks). If all 3 attack him that's 55 damage on average to him on turn 1. He only has 75 hp. Unless he gets healed significantly he's downed on turn 2...

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: combat strategy challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    I don't know if this is an actual rule or not but in the games I play in and run a medium creature isn't going to prevent a huge creatures movement in the slightest. As long as the huge creature doesn't stop in the space he's free to move through it as if you weren't. He will still take the OA though. Assuming we aren't playing by my "walk over them" rule then having a wolf serve as a blocker would work. Alternatively the cleric could as well.
    Your rule is indeed a variant. The vanilla rule is that enemy creatures are difficult terrain, and you can't stop in their squares. Depending on what the geometry is, that could potentially add 20' to 30' plus 5' of difficult terrain to the path a giant would need to take to get within melee range of the sorc (and remember that even in melee, if he isn't within 5' he takes disadvantage against a prone target).

    RE: holding spells, with only one PC in melee, and the given trigger, I don't anticipate a friendly fire problem. But without a map it's impossible to say for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by da newt View Post
    Max - wolf is med, giant is huge, so they can move through each other's space, but difficult terrain and cannot end turn in same space - a huge creature occupies a 15x15 ft space, so it costs the giant an extra 15' of movement to step over a wolf (RAW)?
    RAW doesn't actually say AFAIK how to treat difficult terrain for creatures that occupy more than one square. (I even checked the DMG but found nothing helpful.) The way I tend to run it is that you pay the difficult terrain penalty for a square only when entering it for the first time, so a wolf would only cost you an extra 5', not 15'.

    Let's do another challenge!
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-09-26 at 10:32 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: combat strategy challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    So the Barbarian takes about 18 damage per turn per giant (when he has haste and rage and reckless attacks). If all 3 attack him that's 55 damage on average to him on turn 1. He only has 75 hp. Unless he gets healed significantly he's downed on turn 2...
    Ignoring all things I put that will make the other 2 giants hesitate running forward at the barbarian, and ignoring the cleric that's also in the front line. Sure.

    But also that is the Barbarians job

  8. - Top - End - #68
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: combat strategy challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatoneGuy84 View Post
    Ignoring all things I put that will make the other 2 giants hesitate running forward at the barbarian, and ignoring the cleric that's also in the front line. Sure.

    But also that is the Barbarians job
    IMO the alternative is almost certainly worse... let's assume you've deterred them from going at the barbarian, is it a better case that the other 2 giants advance toward the sorcerer and druid and freely toss rocks at them?
    Last edited by Frogreaver; 2020-09-26 at 12:38 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: combat strategy challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    Use the haste action to attack on your turn. Use your action to ready an attack to trigger before your next turn (whatever appropriate trigger works in your game)



    While fair tactical points in general, I think the specifics of this situation actually make them worse.

    Following your path would likely lead to a greater number of lost resources. Significant hp loss for 1 or multiple characters - potentially spell slot resource drain to bring them back to full hp. Then using a 3rd level slot on fireball before the polymorh uses even more spell slot resources.

    Compare with the plymorph first tactic that doesn't require fireball and leads to none to very minimal PC hp loss.



    Generally the problem with readying an aoe spell to try to catch more enemies is that unless the initiative fell just perfectly then your allies are very likely to get in the way - causing you to either hit them or settle for the same or fewer enemies then you could have gotten to begin with. And there's always the inherent risk of ranged attacks to disrupt your concentration before the spell goes off. In this specific scenario it's likely the Barbarian engages in melee and so your best laid plans to catch all 3 in the AOE probably won't work.

    I don't know if this is an actual rule or not but in the games I play in and run a medium creature isn't going to prevent a huge creatures movement in the slightest. As long as the huge creature doesn't stop in the space he's free to move through it as if you weren't. He will still take the OA though. Assuming we aren't playing by my "walk over them" rule then having a wolf serve as a blocker would work. Alternatively the cleric could as well.

    Another fun thing is that characters can serve as 1/2 cover. So positioning the cleric in front of the sorcerer gives him +2 AC vs ranged attacks and may have a bit of a body blocking function as well.



    This is fun. I'm personally interested in lower resource cost solutions than the ones we used. Using so many of the sorcerers resources is a little rough - albeit most effective.
    I'm going to disagree that the polymorph first strategy uses less resources and results in less hp loss. Mainly this is due to me assuming at least a moderate degree of intelligent play by the Giants. Even if they don't work out right away that the spellcasters are the big threats, it is more than fair to assume when they see one of the characters cast a spell that turns 1 or 2 of the others into big apes they will target that character. By ignoring any sack of HP that looks like a big ape and either stoning the caster or taking OA to get to him/her the characters could be back in a bit of a bind. They are still likely to win as the odds are with them, but they could be in a situation with no Sorc, no polymorph, and some less injured Giants than would have been the case if they'd just acted as characters.

  10. - Top - End - #70
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: combat strategy challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by 5eNeedsDarksun View Post
    I'm going to disagree that the polymorph first strategy uses less resources and results in less hp loss. Mainly this is due to me assuming at least a moderate degree of intelligent play by the Giants. Even if they don't work out right away that the spellcasters are the big threats, it is more than fair to assume when they see one of the characters cast a spell that turns 1 or 2 of the others into big apes they will target that character. By ignoring any sack of HP that looks like a big ape and either stoning the caster or taking OA to get to him/her the characters could be back in a bit of a bind. They are still likely to win as the odds are with them, but they could be in a situation with no Sorc, no polymorph, and some less injured Giants than would have been the case if they'd just acted as characters.
    I don't think that is correct. So let's walk through this.

    Turn 1 party.
    Sorc polymorphs rogue and barbarian into giant apes. Move back such that he is about 70-80ft from the apes and drops prone.
    Cleric casts bless on the apes and sorc and druid and moves to stand in front of the sorc to provide him with 1/2 cover.
    Barbarian Giant ape goes and attacks 1 of the apes standing between it and the casters so the giant would need to go around said ape.
    Rogue Giant ape does the same to another.
    Druid conjures 8 wolves around another, that attack him and likely proning him. He then move back from the giants to about 60ft and drops prone.

    Please tell me what your plan for the turn 1 giants is that takes into account this situation. I would love to hear it.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: combat strategy challenge

    I'd think modifying Frog's round one to have the Cleric cast banish would make it even more optimal - 75% chance that you'll only have to deal w/ 2 Giants for a while.

    I can't see how two giant apes are easier to ignore than a piddly med sized Barb (who they don't even have to move around - they can just step over) and a rogue (who hides). Also apes in melee range = DISADV for stone throwing.



    BTW - I posted a new challenge.
    Last edited by da newt; 2020-09-26 at 03:13 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: combat strategy challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by da newt View Post
    I'd think modifying Frog's round one to have the Cleric cast banish would make it even more optimal - 75% chance that you'll only have to deal w/ 2 Giants for a while.

    I can't see how two giant apes are easier to ignore than a piddly med sized Barb (who they don't even have to move around - they can just step over) and a rogue (who hides). Also apes in melee range = DISADV for stone throwing.



    BTW - I posted a new challenge.
    Yea, if you do the banish option there's a good chance you have 2 mostly healthy giant apes for the next hour.

    I've seen your new challenge. It doesn't have as sure of an answer so I'm thinking it through more. I imagine that's what most are doing.
    Last edited by Frogreaver; 2020-09-26 at 03:17 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: combat strategy challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    I don't think that is correct. So let's walk through this.

    Turn 1 party.
    Sorc polymorphs rogue and barbarian into giant apes. Move back such that he is about 70-80ft from the apes and drops prone.
    Cleric casts bless on the apes and sorc and druid and moves to stand in front of the sorc to provide him with 1/2 cover.
    Barbarian Giant ape goes and attacks 1 of the apes standing between it and the casters so the giant would need to go around said ape.
    Rogue Giant ape does the same to another.
    Druid conjures 8 wolves around another, that attack him and likely proning him. He then move back from the giants to about 60ft and drops prone.

    Please tell me what your plan for the turn 1 giants is that takes into account this situation. I would love to hear it.
    First this assumes the Giants lose initiative against every single character. As they are already outgunned the party will likely win no matter what tactics they employ at this point. I think for future scenarios it would be wise for the poster to give the initiative order as it is crucial to tactics/ outcome.
    Second I've never played in a game where summoned creatures can attack on the round they are summoned, so I'm going to ignore the bit about the wolves proning a Giant. (Also RAW I get it, but Med creature knocking a Huge down... I'd at least give the huge Advantage meaning 2 rolls to get a 5)
    Regardless, the Giants best chance is still to kill/ disrupt casters. Whether that is advancing and throwing rocks at the Cleric needing 10s or the Sorc needing 12s at disadvantage, or the Druid needing (can't remember) at disadvantage. I'd likely go for the Cleric first since no disadvantage. 2 rocks at an average of 56 hp may kill any one of the 3 depending on Con and damage rolls. It goes from there. Again party is likely to win, but the Giants should under no circumstances hit Apes. Also if characters are going prone, no point in advancing and taking OA since it's disadvantage anyway.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: combat strategy challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by 5eNeedsDarksun View Post
    First this assumes the Giants lose initiative against every single character.
    No assumption. That is the scenario that was presented.

    As they are already outgunned the party will likely win no matter what tactics they employ at this point. I think for future scenarios it would be wise for the poster to give the initiative order as it is crucial to tactics/ outcome.
    Agreed. I think he did list the initiatve order in this one after being asked about it.

    Second I've never played in a game where summoned creatures can attack on the round they are summoned, so I'm going to ignore the bit about the wolves proning a Giant. (Also RAW I get it, but Med creature knocking a Huge down... I'd at least give the huge Advantage meaning 2 rolls to get a 5)
    I think RAW is that you roll for their initiative 1 wolf at a time. It seems fairly common for DM's to simplify summons though.

    Regardless, the Giants best chance is still to kill/ disrupt casters. Whether that is advancing and throwing rocks at the Cleric needing 10s or the Sorc needing 12s at disadvantage, or the Druid needing (can't remember) at disadvantage. I'd likely go for the Cleric first since no disadvantage. 2 rocks at an average of 56 hp may kill any one of the 3 depending on Con and damage rolls. It goes from there. Again party is likely to win, but the Giants should under no circumstances hit Apes. Also if characters are going prone, no point in advancing and taking OA since it's disadvantage anyway.
    If the Giants don't move away from the Giant Ape's / wolves the attacks will be at disadvantage. You can forgo the disadvantage on the cleric by taking OA's. I'm assuming that's what you will do. That leaves the giants on the apes as having lost around 1/3 of their hp.

    The cleric has a good chance of being downed (20-25%). He is almost certain to lose bless. He has around a 40% chance of having around 10ish hp left. Only a 6.4% chance that all attacks miss.

    Nice Giant turn. I'm going to go with the 10hp scenario as that was the most likely. one from above. Cleric will action channel divinity heal to 32 hp. He will then cast sanctuary on himself and fall back and drop prone. Apes will position themselves to block giants again and attack them more. wolves will continue after the giant they are on. Druid should dash back 30 ft and fall prone. Sorcerer will dash back 30 ft and drop prone.

    What's turn 2 looking like for the giants?

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: combat strategy challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    I think RAW is that you roll for their initiative 1 wolf at a time. It seems fairly common for DM's to simplify summons though.
    According to RAW all the conjured animals act as a group, which I think happens for all the various 'summon X amount of minions'.

    Regarding the bit about summons not acting in the round they are summoned (which is from the above poster, not Frog's) nothing explicitely says wether they act or not. Given that they have an initiative I think they act in the round only if they roll below the druid, but it's really DM's call. From what I know several DMs don't even control them themselves in the first place (me included).
    I won an argument with my GM -15/08/2017- (20:32 GMT +1)

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  16. - Top - End - #76
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: combat strategy challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    No assumption. That is the scenario that was presented.



    Agreed. I think he did list the initiatve order in this one after being asked about it.



    I think RAW is that you roll for their initiative 1 wolf at a time. It seems fairly common for DM's to simplify summons though.



    If the Giants don't move away from the Giant Ape's / wolves the attacks will be at disadvantage. You can forgo the disadvantage on the cleric by taking OA's. I'm assuming that's what you will do. That leaves the giants on the apes as having lost around 1/3 of their hp.

    The cleric has a good chance of being downed (20-25%). He is almost certain to lose bless. He has around a 40% chance of having around 10ish hp left. Only a 6.4% chance that all attacks miss.

    Nice Giant turn. I'm going to go with the 10hp scenario as that was the most likely. one from above. Cleric will action channel divinity heal to 32 hp. He will then cast sanctuary on himself and fall back and drop prone. Apes will position themselves to block giants again and attack them more. wolves will continue after the giant they are on. Druid should dash back 30 ft and fall prone. Sorcerer will dash back 30 ft and drop prone.

    What's turn 2 looking like for the giants?
    I believe the Cleric gets hit on a 10-20 meaning there is more than a 50% chance he is hit by 2 rocks and about a 15% chance one of those is a crit (then he's definitely toast). If a 14 Con then 52 hp and likely dead by the 2 hits (which average 56 hp), which is the most likely scenario with a 15 str needed for plate armor.

    Regardless, I've already said the Giants have a slim to none chance if they lose initiative to every character regardless of tactics (if the poster did mention that further down the thread I missed it.) Allowing wolves to attack and knock down immediately basically ensures it.
    My argument to you was that an initial polymorph was neither a safer option nor one that would necessarily use less resources. The Barb reckless attacking and the Rogue with SS do more damage than the apes. Tack on a fireball (either Empowered or Quickened + Cantrip depending on metamagic available) and 1 of the giants is likely dead and unable to attack and another is wounded by the end of round 1. It's possible the Polymorph and the 4 metamagic for Twin won't even be needed.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: combat strategy challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogreaver View Post
    I think RAW is that you roll for their initiative 1 wolf at a time. It seems fairly common for DM's to simplify summons though.
    RAW is that identical creatures share initiative.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals get loose.

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