What subclasses don't yet exist, that you want to exist?

[Millstone85]

I'm still of the opinion that they should've just been one class to begin with for exactly that reason.

You and me both.

You could cover the a lot of what the Sorcerer does thematically by just having a Pact of the Blood boon that reflects your body being inhuman/magical.

I would rather see the warlock be absorbed into the sorcerer. Perhaps by converting eldritch blast and the boons into invocations, then giving the feature to the sorcerer. And I would keep it pure fluff whether your power comes from ancestry, a pact, or planar exposure.

Alternatively, the classes could remain separate, but warlock subclasses would be determined by pacts, not by patrons. And the warlock's spellcasting ability would be Intelligence.

[Amechra]

I would rather see the warlock be absorbed into the sorcerer. Perhaps by converting eldritch blast and the boons into invocations, then giving the feature to the sorcerer. And I would keep it pure fluff whether your power comes from ancestry, a pact, or planar exposure.

The reason why I'm leaning more towards Warlocks absorbing Sorcerers is because that would help avoid the Wizard comparisons.

[Edea]

...omg, I was going to post a thread yesterday about opinions on whether sorcerer and warlock should've just been one class, but decided not to because people would get up in arms about that being a silly idea.

Now I wish I'd posted it.

[Dienekes]

The reason why I'm leaning more towards Warlocks absorbing Sorcerers is because that would help avoid the Wizard comparisons.

Personally, I've always felt that the guy whose magic is set up as something that is draining and they need to take short rests between uses makes way more sense as a sorcerer who is supposed to have all this power be internal and thus is expending personal energy to do the effects.

Though, honestly I do actually think there is theoretically enough structural and potentially mechanical difference between the internal magic of a sorcerer and the one who sought out hidden magical entities and made pacts for their soul for power. I just don't think WotC did a particularly good job with it.

[Sam113097]

Alternatively, the classes could remain separate, but warlock subclasses would be determined by pacts, not by patrons. And the warlock's spellcasting ability would be Intelligence.

It would take some work, but I’ve felt like you could rework Origins/Patrons into templates that could work on both the Warlock and Sorcerer chassis. Int-based Warlocks could be defined by more robust Pact subclasses, while sorcerers would gain more features based on their templates, and they would both be able to pick from the same list of “Magic Sources” granting a few extra spells known and some other ribbons.

With Fey, Draconic, Fiendish, Primal, Shadow, Undead, Blade, and Elemental Magic Sources, you could effectively cover your bases for both classes.

[Amnestic]

...omg, I was going to post a thread yesterday about opinions on whether sorcerer and warlock should've just been one class, but decided not to because people would get up in arms about that being a silly idea.

Now I wish I'd posted it.

With the change in the way spellcasting works with preparing and spell slots in 5e compared to 3.5, a lot of what made sorcerer 'unique' in 3.5 was lost, so I can certainly see an argument of combining them. It does feel like they weren't 100% sure what they wanted to 'do' with sorcerers in this edition.

[cutlery]

Sorcerers don't offer much more than different flavor text, really, now that wizards don't have to prepare specific slots.

Metamagic could be part of a school of magic, feats (as in 3/3.5) or similar.

Warlocks in 5e do the "simple wizard" thing far better than sorcerers do, anyway.

It would be hard to play a monoclass sorcerer with wizards, warlocks, and bards all right there.

[Petrocorus]

Concerning Sorcerer and Warlock, at least they have some some difference in their origins.
In 3.5 their source of power were very similar, one had draconic blood, the other had outsider or fey blood.

Frankly, i will be fine with Warlock and Sorcerer being two classes if the Warlock was more like its 3.5 iteration with more emphasis on few at will powers. But with this caster progression, it's in a weird place with three main class features.
- One is EB and its option, except it's not really a class feature and it's easy for other classes to get it.
- One is its Invocation, but it doesn't get enough of them and some are really underwhelming.
- One is Pact Magic which more or less follow full spellcasting but with less spell slot than a half caster.

I think both classes need some rework.

[Azuresun]

Having reread the 3e Forgotten Realms setting book, a Shadow Weave Adept class for Wizards and a Spellfire "patron" for Warlocks would be neat.

[Tanarii]

- One is Pact Magic which more or less follow full spellcasting but with less spell slot than a half caster.

Thats technically correct in terms of maximum capacity and even per day at a certain point, but doesnt reflect the total power. Which is, as you note, roughly equivalent to a full spellcaster class.

Personally I like the tension between between weaker but at will and full power but limited to about once per encounter* in Tier 1 and 2. Especially when you start adding in invocations for more of one or the other.

*combat or non. Most non combat encounters requiring a warlock slot to bypass / succeed are probably at least Medium.

[Petrocorus]

Thats technically correct in terms of maximum capacity and even per day at a certain point, but doesnt reflect the total power. Which is, as you note, roughly equivalent to a full spellcaster class.

Personally I like the tension between between weaker but at will and full power but limited to about once per encounter* in Tier 1 and 2. Especially when you start adding in invocations for more of one or the other.

I actually like this too. I just feel the implementation need some work. More at will invocations, more invocations known, and a different system for the spell slots.

*combat or non. Most non combat encounters requiring a warlock slot to bypass / succeed are probably at least Medium.

The Cha focus combined with some invocations and spells can be so effective for social encounters.
This is what i like about the Warlock, it is so customizable and you can make so many different builds with it.

[LibraryOgre]

I miss 2e bards, who just picked up wizard magic. They weren't bad at it, but they also weren't terribly good (slower advancement of spell levels, capping at level 6). Given 5e's style, it would be difficult to implement.

[zinycor]

I miss 2e bards, who just picked up wizard magic. They weren't bad at it, but they also weren't terribly good (slower advancement of spell levels, capping at level 6). Given 5e's style, it would be difficult to implement.

I miss dart throwers from 2e. Also weapon speed.

[Dienekes]

I miss dart throwers from 2e. Also weapon speed.

Oh I hated weapon speed. Anything set up so the guy with the daggers gets to attack the guy with the 10 foot spear first is just wrong.

Mind you, all of D&D's combat is wrong. But weapon speed gets the reward for adding wrongness when they're trying to do something they think is right.

[LibraryOgre]

Oh I hated weapon speed. Anything set up so the guy with the daggers gets to attack the guy with the 10 foot spear first is just wrong.

Mind you, all of D&D's combat is wrong. But weapon speed gets the reward for adding wrongness when they're trying to do something they think is right.

Hackmaster has a similar weapon speed rule, but with two modifications:

1) If both people are ready, the longest weapon goes first in their initial conflict
2) If you hit someone hard enough, they may a) get pushed by 5 feet or b) get pushed back 10 feet and fall down AND, as a separate check, might also get incapacitated for 5 seconds to several minutes.

[MrStabby]

Thats technically correct in terms of maximum capacity and even per day at a certain point, but doesnt reflect the total power. Which is, as you note, roughly equivalent to a full spellcaster class.

Personally I like the tension between between weaker but at will and full power but limited to about once per encounter* in Tier 1 and 2. Especially when you start adding in invocations for more of one or the other.

*combat or non. Most non combat encounters requiring a warlock slot to bypass / succeed are probably at least Medium.

I think I am growing used to the idea. I think it's fine... but means I will never ever play a warlock again. Maybe file it under "Good for the Game, Bad for Me".

[cutlery]

I think I am growing used to the idea. I think it's fine... but means I will never ever play a warlock again. Maybe file it under "Good for the Game, Bad for Me".

I think the changes to encounter powers/short rests with 5e is the issue. There are so many ways to run out of short rest juice; and particularly if you go warlock with the plan to cast spells, it hurts.


Fighters are hit similarly (well, most of them); but I think people don't notice as much because fighters always tend to feel weak outside of tier 1, or have ever since 3.0.

It's just too easy to toss deadly enounters that favor nova builds with lots of long rest resources at a party. It's more work to spread things out so long resters have to conserve.

[Tanarii]

I think I am growing used to the idea. I think it's fine... but means I will never ever play a warlock again. Maybe file it under "Good for the Game, Bad for Me".

That's been Wizards for me since like 2e.

[Amechra]

Honestly, having some kind of forced pacing mechanic (like having to take two short rests between two long rest) would really help out the mechanical balance for classes... but it'd probably feel pretty artificial.

The difference between how 5e was apparently intended to be played (where encounters are mostly there to drain your resources) and how it often is played (where rests are frequent and combats are intended to be individually challenging) is kinda interesting.

...

I kinda want to see a Warlock Pact (no, not Patron) that encourages you to burn spell slots on blasting. Because as it stands, the fact that you're going to have 2-3 spell slots per short rest for most of your career means that dropping a spell slot on Guiding Bolt (Celestial) or Fireball (Fiend) isn't really in your best interest.

[cutlery]

I kinda want to see a Warlock Pact (no, not Patron) that encourages you to burn spell slots on blasting. Because as it stands, the fact that you're going to have 2-3 spell slots per short rest for most of your career means that dropping a spell slot on Guiding Bolt (Celestial) or Fireball (Fiend) isn't really in your best interest.

Wouldn't be a bad idea; I suppose they could have done it with spells, but magical secrets sort of ruin exclusive spells.

I'm not sure they are thinking in that direction, if pact of the talisman is any indication.

[Amechra]

magical secrets sort of ruin exclusive spells.

Magical Secrets is basically one of my least favorite parts of this edition. Sure, it's thematic on a Bard and all... but they also made the Bard a full caster, so it indirectly nerfs any higher-level spells that half-casters natively have access to. Because the Bard can pick them up a whole 3-7 levels early, and ends up with more/better uses for them.

It also contributes to the whole "Bards only get three subclass levels" thing.

[Dienekes]

Hackmaster has a similar weapon speed rule, but with two modifications:

1) If both people are ready, the longest weapon goes first in their initial conflict
2) If you hit someone hard enough, they may a) get pushed by 5 feet or b) get pushed back 10 feet and fall down AND, as a separate check, might also get incapacitated for 5 seconds to several minutes.

That's not terrible, but the best version of this sort of thing I've seen is -unsurprisingly- from Riddle of Steel.

Essentially, there's not really such a thing as Initiative as D&D portrays it. The game instead focuses on characters attack and defending against each other at the same time. But for these conflicts, the weapon with longer reach would have advantage based on how much longer they were compared to the opposing weapon. However, if the weapon with the smaller reach actually makes it in to get a solid attack against the longer weapon then the entire dynamic is completely reversed and the longer weapon can have one hell of a disadvantage if the dagger wielder actually does get inside their reach.

While certain maneuvers are only available to weapons that would usually be considered "quicker" like daggers or swords with a back-edge.

Honestly, having some kind of forced pacing mechanic (like having to take two short rests between two long rest) would really help out the mechanical balance for classes... but it'd probably feel pretty artificial.

The difference between how 5e was apparently intended to be played (where encounters are mostly there to drain your resources) and how it often is played (where rests are frequent and combats are intended to be individually challenging) is kinda interesting.

I maintain, 5e would have been better off if they kept the notion of Short Rest as a 10 minute thing that was expected to happen after every conflict. It's already stealing from 4e's At-Will, Encounter, Daily paradigm just more annoying to balance for the players and DM. I know that would mean rebalancing pretty much every Short Rest class, but it would saved so many headaches.

[zinycor]

It also contributes to the whole "Bards only get three subclass levels" thing.

I would like it if most classes got more subclass levels in general.

[Tanarii]

One that occurred to me today: a wild shaping subclass on an otherwise martial class.

[KorvinStarmast]

One that occurred to me today: a wild shaping subclass on an otherwise martial class.

Turn barbarian berserker into a shape changer, during combat.
I think berserk comes from an old word that means something like that.

an alternative form of berserker, a word which was introduced (as berserkar) by Sir Walter Scott in "The Pirate" (1822), from Old Norse berserkr (n.) "raging warrior of superhuman strength." It is probably from *ber- "bear" + serkr "shirt," thus literally "a warrior clothed in bearskin" (see bear (n.) + sark). Thus not, as Scott evidently believed, from Old Norse berr "bare, naked" and meaning "warrior who fights without armor.

[Spriteless]

Maybe a more melee focused character who could only heal themself, and steal life from monsters. Like a demon healer in In Nomine. (Look I know my character could have healed other people if I had taken the discord but WHY DO THAT.) Or the Vampire character class in 4e. Which could also shapechange into a bat.

I mean, I could just refluff any Fighter's second wind as that. Or be a blade Warlock who uses Vampiric Touch more often than necessary.

Or, if Lord of sorting through homebrew or possibly making copypasta wants to find a bunch of classes that are turning into a monster, that would also be good. I like PDFs and patreon creators more than anonymous wikis.

[Tanarii]

Turn barbarian berserker into a shape changer, during combat.
I think berserk comes from an old word that means something like that.

Yeah I guess I come back to: 4e style barbarian rages & warden forms.

[cutlery]

I mean, I could just refluff any Fighter's second wind as that. Or be a blade Warlock who uses Vampiric

A vampiric heal invocation would be really nice (and when I first read lifedrinker, that's what I thought it should be). I feel like I saw something to that effect somewhere in a UA, but I don't recall where.

They seem to have balanced in-combat healing to be rare, so it would probably be too strong unless it was something tiny like 1/2 proficiency per attack.

[Edea]

They seem to have balanced in-combat healing to be rare, so it would probably be too strong unless it was something tiny like 1/2 proficiency per attack.

The way death works is extremely forgiving in this edition. It can be kinda hard to actually die unless the DM goes out of their way to make things challenging. I can understand wanting to limit the in-peril heals a bit (though they're not limited THAT much).

[Petrocorus]

I mean, I could just refluff any Fighter's second wind as that. Or be a blade Warlock who uses Vampiric Touch more often than necessary.

I could easily see this on a Warlock.
Though it is already possible just by selecting the spell and casting it in each combat, it does require to have your nice short rests.
Maybe an Invocation giving special spell slots for it (an at-will will probably too high level) and maybe allowing it to be channelled through a pact blade.