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  1. - Top - End - #1351
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

    Unless the Foglios spring some new claimant on us, which I hope they don't at this point, it's pretty likely that Tarvek and Gil are the two front-runners for the Storm King title. The novels play it up more than the comic, but the fact that Boris can call Gil "your highness" when Gil takes over the Empire means that he's of royal birth, making him much more palatable to the rest of Europan nobility.

  2. - Top - End - #1352
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

    The "Your Highness" from Boris is something that Klaus had him do. Gil is a Prince. But of Skifander. Remember Zeetha is a Princess and she is Gil's sister.
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  3. - Top - End - #1353
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

    This has probably been brought up already, but wasn't the last storm king married to a Heterodyne? If there's a child there that continued the Heterodyne line, then that would make them decent claimants as well. My money is going to be on Agatha and Tarvek being the main front-runners for the title, which would also go a bit further to explain why 'marry a (fake) heterodyne' was an important step in the plans of the storm-king conspiracies.
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  4. - Top - End - #1354

    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

    That particular wedding never came off, since the bride disappeared.

    Tarvek's claim is through his mother. Most likely, Aaronev was her cousin (royals tending to marry cousins to keep the blood line pure). I suspect everyone calls Terebitha grandmother because she told them to--remember the other two Smoke Knights in Paris also referred to her as such when discussing the party.

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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

    Yeah but the point was, if the "storm king" marries a "heterodyne" it strengthens the claim to the throne because now its from both directions. Both lines with a claim to the throne are now united in marriage.
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  6. - Top - End - #1356

    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

    Heterodynes don't have a claim on the throne just because a girl from their family was selected as Royal Breeding Stock. The only claimants are those descended from Andronicus Valois, probably illegitimately since we haven't heard anything about his being married but have had multiple references to his being an Alpha-grade womanizer.

  7. - Top - End - #1357
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Heterodynes don't have a claim on the throne just because a girl from their family was selected as Royal Breeding Stock. The only claimants are those descended from Andronicus Valois, probably illegitimately since we haven't heard anything about his being married but have had multiple references to his being an Alpha-grade womanizer.
    And if he got his heterodyne wife preggers? Wouldnt that mean whatever descendants come from that would have a link to the throne? From how he behaved in paris he loved her dearly, and certainly had more than a single interaction with her. Its entirely possible that agathas great great great etc grandmother was married to the storm king and thus she is descended from that line as well as the heterodynes. And so would have a line to the throne.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
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  8. - Top - End - #1358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    And if he got his heterodyne wife preggers? Wouldnt that mean whatever descendants come from that would have a link to the throne? From how he behaved in paris he loved her dearly, and certainly had more than a single interaction with her. Its entirely possible that agathas great great great etc grandmother was married to the storm king and thus she is descended from that line as well as the heterodynes. And so would have a line to the throne.
    Still an extremely weak claim, requiring that not only he got Euphrosynia pregnant before the wedding, but also that she didn't actually disappear, but returned to her family to give birth. Which is a version supported by nothing we know of. And even if all that happened, the child would be illegitimate, and we don't have a clue on how the laws would work with that.
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

    The Stormking-Heterodyne marriage claim is mainly because of the old stories. The Heterodynes can't claim, but if you have a claim and marry the Heterodyne, you make your claim stronger.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    Still an extremely weak claim, requiring that not only he got Euphrosynia pregnant before the wedding, but also that she didn't actually disappear, but returned to her family to give birth. Which is a version supported by nothing we know of. And even if all that happened, the child would be illegitimate, and we don't have a clue on how the laws would work with that.
    Honestly everything is very vague at this point. From exact line of heredity between tarvek and marty, to who or what could be the source of the third person with the best connection, to how the laws of succession works. All we are doing now is tossing out theories. Im just saying that he was KNOWN to be with Euph (I aint spelling that full name) and setup to marry her. That means any children she may have had would be automatically more acceptable than any mystery claimant descended from whatever random priestess he might have boinked while on break in between military campaigns. We have NO IDEA what truly went on during the time of the storm king. We have gotten hints, confused accounts, signs of betrayal from van rjinn and the heterodynes, a mystery death that wasnt a death, its a god awful mess. Did it ever establish he married her? Or was he arranged to do so and besotted by her but died before they got hitched?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    That means any children she may have had would be automatically more acceptable than any mystery claimant descended from whatever random priestess he might have boinked while on break in between military campaigns.
    Sure. But nothing so far supports her having any children, due to a bad case of disappearing ;P

    Did it ever establish he married her? Or was he arranged to do so and besotted by her but died before they got hitched?
    Seems he was supposed to marry her, but she disappeared (quite literally, in Van Rijn's lab) before the wedding, hence everyone referring to her as a bride, and never as wife.
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    I don't understand your point. Why does it matter what I said?

  12. - Top - End - #1362

    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

    And we know that most of the nobles in Europa can claim descent from the Storm King. Zola's counterpoint to that was an heir that had acceptance from the Fifty Families. None of this confusion works if there is an acknowledged legitimate heir. All claimants need to have a degree of illegitimacy so it becomes a question of balancing out who is least untainted.

    Or somebody makes like William the Bastard of Normandy and just conquers the crown by killing off all rivals. Martellus seems amenable to that route.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Yeah but the point was, if the "storm king" marries a "heterodyne" it strengthens the claim to the throne because now its from both directions. Both lines with a claim to the throne are now united in marriage.
    no, the point of trying to get the storm king to marry a heterodyne was just to take advantage of old fairy tales to create popular support. . The story about the storm king and his lost herteodyne love is a popular story in europa. Having the storm king not only return, but do so while uniting with a heterodyne lover would be like the old fairy tale coming true. Poeple would not only accept that the new storm king is the true heir, but they will be excited for him and his new wife

    Honestly everything is very vague at this point. From exact line of heredity between tarvek and marty, to who or what could be the source of the third person with the best connection, to how the laws of succession works. All we are doing now is tossing out theories. Im just saying that he was KNOWN to be with Euph (I aint spelling that full name) and setup to marry her. That means any children she may have had would be automatically more acceptable than any mystery claimant descended from whatever random priestess he might have boinked while on break in between military campaigns. We have NO IDEA what truly went on during the time of the storm king. We have gotten hints, confused accounts, signs of betrayal from van rjinn and the heterodynes, a mystery death that wasnt a death, its a god awful mess. Did it ever establish he married her? Or was he arranged to do so and besotted by her but died before they got hitched?
    Not necessarily. Royal lines of succession typically require marriage. Any child that the storm king had with someone he did not marry would most likely not even have a claim to the throne. If he did not marry Euph then any children they might have had wouldn't have any more claim to the throne than children he might have produced from any other random fling

    Though we don't really even have a clear answer on how the REAL line of succession started. Could be that the storm king had a first arranged wife who gave him legitimate children(which is where Tarvek and the others come from); she passed away thus he was arranged a second wife which was Euph who he was truly in love with; this however ended in betrayal and the end of his reign... though its also possible that he never had any legitimate children, and the knight's of jove just decided to establish family lines from his most noble illegitimate children. Though with Orotine, I would expect the former to be the case, with Tarvek being the most legitimate first claimant to the crown.

  14. - Top - End - #1364
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

    We're overthinking this. As far as the world at large is aware, Clankrezia is a puppet clank controlled by the paralysed Princess Anveka. Unless descent is fully agnatic (which seems unusual in a world where female rulers are far from unusual), that means that her claim is second to her brother's (or ahead of his, if succession is cognatic and she's older). Failing that, if Seffie's older than Martellus, she may have a claim that trumps his.
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  15. - Top - End - #1365

    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

    You're forgetting Gil's conversation with Zola. He described the claimants to the throne as 'sots, imbeciles and (God Forbid) females', at which point Zola talked about how a proper heir was engineered. Apparently as far as the Storm King types are concerned, women need not apply.

  16. - Top - End - #1366
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

    The opera strongly implies Euphrosynia didn't marry the Storm King. However, the books have the Muses warning him on the day of the wedding she'll betray him, knowing it's too late to change anything. He also refers to her elsewhere as his bride. So, it's possible they were married.

    Also, until relatively recent times, a betrothal was considered a marriage if it was consummated. It was also considered legally binding if a couple spoke marriage oaths in front of a witness.

    So, it's quite possible that Euphrosynia and the Storm King could have been legally married by the standards of their time (either traditionally married or already bound by a betrothal or oath which was consummated).

    Or it is depending on how technical the Foglios want to get about marriage laws.

    It's also possible the Storm King was married to someone else before or after Euphronsynia, but that seems like a long shot since there hasn't been any groundwork laid for it.

    I'm assuming Tarvek is second in line and that we're looking just for number one (although it could be that Tarvek isn't who she meant and that there are two other dark horses ahead of Martellus with Tarvek fourth or further down the line, but I won't be discussing that).

    So, going with the possible suspects:

    The current Heterodynes are descended from Euphrosynia. If females can inherit, that means it could be Agatha.

    If it's male heirs only Agatha's uncle, her father, or her brother is still alive. Smart money's on Barry. But, in GG, one of the others could still be around.

    If Euphronsynia vanished through the mirrors, she could have wound up in Skifander and Gil is the legitimate heir of the Storm King.

    This raises the question of why none of the Jaegers ever noticed he was a Heterodyne. Maybe a descendant in the female line or one who hasn't had an ancestor drink Dyne water in two centuries (or both) doesn't have the right smell. Or maybe there's another reason.

    If she remained in Europa, the Mongfishes may be her descendants (extremely unlikely, IMHO, but not impossible). In that case, Theo is the only known male heir in that family (assuming Agatha's Mongfish grandfather is dead, as seems to be generally believed by the characters).

    Of course, maybe it will be someone from left field and Moloch will turn out to be Euphrosynia's nonSparky descendant.
    Last edited by Ellen; 2021-03-03 at 08:40 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #1367

    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

    Zola gloated about him getting killed in a freak airship accident. Or since they were involved with Tarvek's family, I should say 'accident'.

  18. - Top - End - #1368
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

    Orotine completely understand what Krosp is talking about ... now I wonder what she really thought of Andronicus.
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

    If the Storm King died without (legitimate) issue, then the title would go to siblings, nephews, cousins, and so on and so forth. And the rule for "next of kin" are pretty complicated. We don't know what they were. If he had legitimate issue prior to his intended marriage to the Heterodyne daughter, then all claims descend from those children - but why didn't one of them take the throne? Yes there was a big war, and the Storm King turned into a monster by the end - but why no heir? I suspect that succession was unclear at the time and hasn't become any clearer.

    Those of you who know your Shakespeare know that Henry V's claim to the throne of France depended on whether or not a woman could inherit the throne. He said that a (great?) grandmother should have taken the throne and got aced out by a deliberate misreading of the (spelling? not gonna look it up) Salic law by the male contender and his supporters. The point being that the rules sometimes get seriously bent if the people with the power need to bend them.
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    I want to see if im understanding this right. I read a story that talked about lines of succession so tell me what you think. Lets say we have three brothers, Al, Bill, and Charlie. Al is the first king ever. All three of them have a son, obviously the kings son is the heir. This line gets followed down the generations until one day that first kings line dies out entirely. No sons, no nephews, no cousins in direct line. Thus the line resets to that first kings brother Bill and HIS family line. They track down the list of births and deaths till they find the eldest son (this is patriarchal for simplicity) currently alive from THAT line and he can take the crown. If that entire line had also died out, the third brother Charlies line would then be examined. Is that how it works in reality?
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  21. - Top - End - #1371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    If the Storm King died without (legitimate) issue, then the title would go to siblings, nephews, cousins, and so on and so forth. And the rule for "next of kin" are pretty complicated. We don't know what they were. If he had legitimate issue prior to his intended marriage to the Heterodyne daughter, then all claims descend from those children - but why didn't one of them take the throne? Yes there was a big war, and the Storm King turned into a monster by the end - but why no heir? I suspect that succession was unclear at the time and hasn't become any clearer.
    I was under the impression that the Storm King's kingdom didn't really survive Andronicus's "death" anyway.

    Those of you who know your Shakespeare know that Henry V's claim to the throne of France depended on whether or not a woman could inherit the throne. He said that a (great?) grandmother should have taken the throne and got aced out by a deliberate misreading of the (spelling? not gonna look it up) Salic law by the male contender and his supporters. The point being that the rules sometimes get seriously bent if the people with the power need to bend them.
    Edward the Third claimed the throne of France because his mother was the daughter of Philip IV whose sons and other grandchildren were all already dead (or in one case of doubtful legitimacy and female). The legal team of Charles VI (Philip's nephew) howevered rediscovered (understand made up) a law stating that female could neither inherit or transmit the thrones.

    Cue 116 years of people killing people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    I want to see if im understanding this right. I read a story that talked about lines of succession so tell me what you think. Lets say we have three brothers, Al, Bill, and Charlie. Al is the first king ever. All three of them have a son, obviously the kings son is the heir. This line gets followed down the generations until one day that first kings line dies out entirely. No sons, no nephews, no cousins in direct line. Thus the line resets to that first kings brother Bill and HIS family line. They track down the list of births and deaths till they find the eldest son (this is patriarchal for simplicity) currently alive from THAT line and he can take the crown. If that entire line had also died out, the third brother Charlies line would then be examined. Is that how it works in reality?


    What you describe is in general principle how most inheritance laws work but the fact is that each dynasty in each country made its own laws. The countries of France and Germany famously exist because the Frankish kingdom/Empire of Charlemagne had as a law that each legitimate son should receive an equal amount of land, while the Roman Empire straight up had no laws of succession whatsoever. Even for countries that decided that they liked staying in one piece the details of the mecanism vary: can girls inherit? If so do they take precedence over younger brothers or must there be no son of the previous monarch? What happens if a monarch wants to desinherit their heir or passes the crown to somebody else entirely? Do illegitimate children have rights? Bear in mind that without DNA testing it's almost impossible to prove who the father of a child is.

    In practice when the king has a clear heir who is acceptable to the nobles (or whatever ruling class) and the realm is currently stable it's smooth sailing but when that fails it can get very ugly very fast. Nobles are definitely not above faking family trees or spreading false rumors to bulk up their claims or tarnish somebody else's. If an heir is impopular or otherwise flawed (wrong religion, queer, mentally challenged, just a straight-up *******, sterile, killed their dad, married a foreigner, married a commoner, is perceived as weak, mixed race and more are all things that got legitimate kings eliminated from succession and often from life) the nobility will challenge them and may suceed. In extreme cases, like for Edward III above the law might just get sneakily rewritten just to eliminate somebody from the race. Especially in a feodal system where the king's authority rests pretty much entirely on how much personnal loyalty he can create in his grand vassals.

    Ultimately the actual law doesn't matter as much as who can impose their rule. Often that's simply the king's eldest son, but when it's not... The Hundred Years War is best described as "The Hundred Year long legal arguments where people occasionnally started stabbing each other's peasants to male their point."

    In the case you present, the longer between the death of the original king and the extinction of the main line, the more people will feel they have a good case to make and if they have the military might, the more likely a succession war.

    In GG's case Andronicus Valois didn't even really establish a dynasty, the Knights of Jove are a bunch of revivalists who want to reestablish a previous state. The legal framework they use to legitimate their Storm King will only matter if they manage to actually conquer land and establish a state which I don't think they've done?

    In the Sworn Sword by George R. R. Martin, a minor noble who was on the losing side of a war of succession laments that his side is now called "traitors" and "rebels" when their case was just as good as the other side's and had they won the battle, they'd be the "loyalists".
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    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    I want to see if im understanding this right. I read a story that talked about lines of succession so tell me what you think. Lets say we have three brothers, Al, Bill, and Charlie. Al is the first king ever. All three of them have a son, obviously the kings son is the heir. This line gets followed down the generations until one day that first kings line dies out entirely. No sons, no nephews, no cousins in direct line. Thus the line resets to that first kings brother Bill and HIS family line. They track down the list of births and deaths till they find the eldest son (this is patriarchal for simplicity) currently alive from THAT line and he can take the crown. If that entire line had also died out, the third brother Charlies line would then be examined. Is that how it works in reality?
    It's something that definitely could happen. Every country, family, or fief had its own rules. In England right now, I believe, it would go as you say. France pretty much saw this happen when the last Valois king died in 1589 and was succeded by the first Bourbon king, who owed his claim to being a descendant of Louis IX (who died in 1270). Louis IX was a Capetian, and his sixth son was the first Bourbon. House Valois was instead founded by the second son of Louis's son and successor, Philip III. They technically both were cadet branches of the Capetians. The Valois also had inherited the throne in 1328, after the main Capetian line extinguished itself.
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

    And then you had Scotland, where the throne transferred laterally to a brother or cousin (Duncan to MacBeth, Malcolm III to Donalbain) as a mechanism to avoid an infancy regency (boy could the Stuarts have taken a cue from the MacAlpins on that one).

    Or the Turks, where the succession is "Who seizes the throne and then kills off all his brothers and cousins, and probably their mothers and sisters as well".

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    Quote Originally Posted by SZbNAhL View Post
    We're overthinking this. As far as the world at large is aware, Clankrezia is a puppet clank controlled by the paralysed Princess Anveka. Unless descent is fully agnatic (which seems unusual in a world where female rulers are far from unusual), that means that her claim is second to her brother's (or ahead of his, if succession is cognatic and she's older). Failing that, if Seffie's older than Martellus, she may have a claim that trumps his.
    Except that in Girl Genius lines of inheritance seemed end with the death/clankification/(re)construction of the person, so Anveka would be highly likley to be excluded at that point. This was discussed in the novels around this time in the comic (which just deals with death benefits or otherwise). Seffie might be in with a chance, but I doubt that it is that much greater than her brother's.
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    It's something that definitely could happen. Every country, family, or fief had its own rules. In England right now, I believe, it would go as you say.
    Not really.
    France pretty much saw this happen when the last Valois king died in 1589 and was succeded by the first Bourbon king, who owed his claim to being a descendant of Louis IX (who died in 1270). Louis IX was a Capetian, and his sixth son was the first Bourbon. House Valois was instead founded by the second son of Louis's son and successor, Philip III. They technically both were cadet branches of the Capetians. The Valois also had inherited the throne in 1328, after the main Capetian line extinguished itself.
    Well, they did have a somewhat heated argument about that last point with some English kid. Took a while to set the record straight, I think.
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    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
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  27. - Top - End - #1377
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

    Quote Originally Posted by Manga Shoggoth View Post
    Except that in Girl Genius lines of inheritance seemed end with the death/clankification/(re)construction of the person, so Anveka would be highly likley to be excluded at that point. This was discussed in the novels around this time in the comic (which just deals with death benefits or otherwise). Seffie might be in with a chance, but I doubt that it is that much greater than her brother's.
    That probably is the most correct interpretation of laws, but I think the only clear succession rule we've had stated is that dying disqualifies you, as noted when Von Ping killed <forgot-her-name> back when Agatha escaped. (or... whoever that noble girl died.) So dying and getting revived or your corpse becoming a construct would definitely disqualify you.
    I think it's a reasonable extension that your consciousness being moved into a clank is essentially the same as being a construct, and thus you would be disqualified, but it's not explicitly part of the accepted laws of succession, then she could make a claim. And if she had enough power and support, that would back up her claim.

    Again, I agree with you in the principle of it, but noting we don't know that 100% and there's loopholes.
    On the other hand, having most of Europe being enslaved by slaver-wasps also makes the legitimacy of claims not too relevant. (I'm not clear on the current expected infestation rate, but it sounds like it is believed to be incredibly high.)

    In general, though, I reckon the two people with better claims are Tarvek and probably some other blood relative we aren't aware of.

  28. - Top - End - #1378
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    That probably is the most correct interpretation of laws, but I think the only clear succession rule we've had stated is that dying disqualifies you, as noted when Von Ping killed <forgot-her-name> back when Agatha escaped. (or... whoever that noble girl died.)
    Princess Zulenna. It was Bang that killed her, not Von Pinn (Von Pinn couldn't bring herself to do it), but that was the first time we heard the rule. Tarvek and Violetta brought the same rule up when he went through the rolling death/revivification process in Castle Heterodyne, so it does seem like one of the most solid succession rules around.

  29. - Top - End - #1379
    Titan in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

    Quote Originally Posted by Manga Shoggoth View Post
    Except that in Girl Genius lines of inheritance seemed end with the death/clankification/(re)construction of the person, so Anveka would be highly likley to be excluded at that point. This was discussed in the novels around this time in the comic (which just deals with death benefits or otherwise). Seffie might be in with a chance, but I doubt that it is that much greater than her brother's.
    Eh, maybe not?
    Like, one could argue that, under the original body, Anveka never really "Died", and the clank is just an assistive device like a wheelchair.
    (Of course, Anveka DID die, but people don't know that).




    That said, I wonder how this applies to the Heterodynes? The Castle wasn't willing to let Agatha undergo the Si Vales Valeo, but there the thing it objected to was that Agatha was going to die, not that she was going to be resurrected. The Heterodynes don't seem like the type to care about such things.
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  30. - Top - End - #1380

    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

    Heterodynes are pretty solidly in the Mighty Get To Make Their Own Fun category.

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