Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

[The Glyphstone]

Would Bang still love him if he wasn't a bloodthirsty psychopath?

[Shining Wrath]

Would Bang still love him if he wasn't a bloodthirsty psychopath?

No, she might not. But she might learn something.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I'm pretty sure 'love' is not the word you're looking for. 'Lust' in flame and fireworks text, more likely.

[Ellen]

Good ole Bang. Even when you agree with her line in the sand, she still has to remind you she's a violent nut job. If she ever wrote a book on ethics, a lot more than seven popes would ban it.

[keybounce]

"This book on ethics ... it is clearly sarcasm. Just do the opposite of what it says, and you'll be fine."

[Fyraltari]

"This book on ethics ... it is clearly sarcasm. Just do the opposite of what it says, and you'll be fine."

Niccolò Machiavelli: Am I a joke to you?

[Traab]

Niccolò Machiavelli: Am I a joke to you?

Too many people take him seriously. "So its better to be loved AND feared, but if I cant be both, best to be feared? I can do that." /fires up the wood chipper.

[Shining Wrath]

I very much doubt Klaus is religious - no evidence that I can recall - but if he believed he had a mortal soul, he'd be willing to lose it in order to restore order to Europa. That's more or less what he did when he came back and found chaos everywhere - he restored order, "my way".

So yes, I think Klaus would agree with the main argument of The Prince. And Bang is, metaphorically, one of his wood chippers.

I think we've now established a way for Bang to stay in character and not kill Zeetha - Zeetha is important to the fight against The Other. And The Other takes all the fun ought of having a license to kill, so The Other must die. After The Other is dead, scores can be settled.

EDIT:

In the background - a display marked "Moon Cheese" and another labeled "Our Terrifying Solar System". Support for the planetary travel capabilities of Sparks has been provided. Tenuously, support for Skifander being on another planet - not definitive, but somewhat more plausible.

Yes, I know the Heterodyne boys went to Mars. In a rowboat. Even they seemed to think that was unusual.

EDIT #2:

The Heterodyne boys found a Martian Dragon in the basement of Castle Heterodyne. Which is located where it is because the waters of the Dyne contain energies that the Heterodynes learned to tap.

So ... maybe ... there's some sort of connection between that location and other planets, which accounts for the Dyne being powerful, and for the dragon showing up in their basement? And maybe The Other will need Castle Heterodyne to complete a nefarious scheme? Which may mean The Other will help Agatha free Mechanicsburg (without revealing herself, of course)?

[Manga Shoggoth]

And suddenly, I know just how Tarvek felt: I had no idea she was capable of such self-awareness.

I mean, we know she hates mind control, but this. And still very much in character.

I wonder if she has been mind-controlled at some point.

[Shining Wrath]

And suddenly, I know just how Tarvek felt: I had no idea she was capable of such self-awareness.

I mean, we know she hates mind control, but this. And still very much in character.

I wonder if she has been mind-controlled at some point.

That would be a plausible back story - she was mind controlled and forced into piracy, broke free and killed the pirate captain who had enslaved her mind, and then by the Pirate Code became captain herself. Originally she was just an innocent girl from a good family.

[Kantaki]

Huh.
I find myself agreeing with Dupree.
Well, not her words, but the sentiment?
Her line in the sand?
That I can get behind.

And not just because being on the wrong side results in stabby death.

Not that being on the right side necessarily wouldn't, but it'd be less inevitable.

[Rogar Demonblud]

That would be a plausible back story - she was mind controlled and forced into piracy, broke free and killed the pirate captain who had enslaved her mind, and then by the Pirate Code became captain herself. Originally she was just an innocent girl from a good family.

Her father was a Pirate King who was overthrown. Much of Bang's deeper motivations AND her reason for working under Klaus involves getting the resources to take back her kingdom.

[Fyraltari]

I very much doubt Klaus is religious - no evidence that I can recall - but if he believed he had a mortal soul, he'd be willing to lose it in order to restore order to Europa. That's more or less what he did when he came back and found chaos everywhere - he restored order, "my way".

So yes, I think Klaus would agree with the main argument of The Prince. And Bang is, metaphorically, one of his wood chippers.

The main point of The Prince is that monarchs are a bunch of hypocritical *******s who pretend to rule through divine right because of their higher morals when they actually are only in power through their ruthlessness. And also that Italy should unite against France. I was pointing out the fact that so many people take this book literally when it is dedicated to the man who had both of the author's arms broken and said author thrown in jail after he overthrew the republic the author worked for for years.

[Shining Wrath]

The main point of The Prince is that monarchs are a bunch of hypocritical *******s who pretend to rule through divine right because of their higher morals when they actually are only in power through their ruthlessness. And also that Italy should unite against France. I was pointing out the fact that so many people take this book literally when it is dedicated to the man who had both of the author's arms broken and said author thrown in jail after he overthrew the republic the author worked for for years.

Do you think Klaus would disagree with the idea that monarchs are hypocrites and ... jerks? This is, after all, the man who resorted to the age-old practice of keeping their children in his palace to "educate" them, and also as hostages. I think Klaus is okay with both readings of The Prince; the mockery of inherited authority and power and the idea that some people are better than others; and also with the idea that a ruler has to do whatever is necessary in order to retain power and defeat enemies, internal and external.

He is, after all, ruler of Europa while being from a minor family. He knows the 50 families and the Sturmvarouses and very especially the Heterodynes do not rule because they are good people, or even almost-as-good-as-their-subjects people. And his methods are ruthless, tempered by the knowledge that going too far leads to rebellion.

Which ever reading of Machiavelli you take, Klaus is there with you.

[Fyraltari]

Do you think Klaus would disagree with the idea that monarchs are hypocrites and ... jerks?

Yes. Klaus is a monarch and an authoritarian by heart.

[HandofShadows]

also with the idea that a ruler has to do whatever is necessary in order to retain power and defeat enemies, internal and external.

Klaus doesn't want to stay in power just to stay in power. Klaus feels he HAS to stay in power because if there wasn't someone keeping some sort of order Europe would become a blood soaked battleground again full of monsters, power mad sparks and power hungry nobles. (There is a reason for Klaus being the TV Tropes poster boy for "The Extremist was right") After the time skip the quiet time of The Empire is seen as a golden age.

[Kantaki]

Yes. Klaus is a monarch and an authoritarian by heart.

He's also probably smart and self aware enough not to forget he is those things- and likely has failsafes in place if he does.

[Rogar Demonblud]

He should also be the poster boy for Only Adult In The Room, IMNSHO.

[Fyraltari]

He's also probably smart and self aware enough not to forget he is those things- and likely has failsafes in place if he does.

Oh please, he was so reluctant to let go of power he took a page out of his mortal ennemy's book and mindraped his own son. This guy does not have a proverbial slave whispering memento mori in his ear.

[HandofShadows]

Oh please, he was so reluctant to let go of power he took a page out of his mortal ennemy's book and mindraped his own son. This guy does not have a proverbial slave whispering memento mori in his ear.

No, Klaus did that to try and protect Gil. Gil is more important to him than the Empire would ever be. Also Gil agreed to the procedure. And let's not forget that Klaus had been wasped and been given direct orders by The Other. That Klaus managed to frustrate The Other's orders as much as he did is more than a small miracle.

[Shining Wrath]

Oh please, he was so reluctant to let go of power he took a page out of his mortal ennemy's book and mindraped his own son. This guy does not have a proverbial slave whispering memento mori in his ear.

He did that after he was wasped, so now let us speculate just how resistant he was to The Other's influence when no one else in the entire strip could resist her blandishments at all once the slaver wasps got them. He behaved more like The Other when The Other was in his head whispering. Should we be surprised?

And I never said Klaus was anything but a jerk. I see him as both power-mad AND having some valid reason to believe that he's the only person who can hold Europa together. When he removed himself from the scene (not a thing the completely power-mad are typically found doing), Europa did go to hell, giving some credence to his thesis. Although the effects of Der Kestle in full Defend Mechanicsburg Mode on his armed forces didn't help.

His decision to go into Mechanicsburg and set off the Time Stop is hard to align with unmitigated lust for power, since by definition he had none once he triggered it. It's possible that he really did see himself as the savior of Europa.

[Kantaki]

Oh please, he was so reluctant to let go of power he took a page out of his mortal ennemy's book and mindraped his own son. This guy does not have a proverbial slave whispering memento mori in his ear.

In fairness, considering said son's obsession with a girl that was possessed by the Other, if not the Other herself,- not to mention the Heterodyne -the alternative would've been to hand someone infinitely worse the keys to Europa.

Horrendously evil move?
Sure, but compared to the alternative?
Klaus could've justified so much more than installing a shoulder Klaus in Gil's head.
I mean, Gil's still Gil, no?

Klaus is very much not a good guy, but I doubt he's unaware of the fact. Considering himself necessary? Definitely. Nigh irreplaceable? Probably? Will he do anything to ensure the Pax Wulfenbach survives him? Yup.
But calling himself a good guy? Nah, can't see it.

Also, if he was that bad he wouldn't let the Heterodyne Shows run around making fun of him.

[BRC]

Yes. Klaus is a monarch and an authoritarian by heart.

Klaus is a Monarch, and he's certainly an Authoritarian.

I also don't think he'd disagree with the idea that Monarchs are hypocrites and jerks.

Klaus may be a Monarch, but I don't think he's a Monarchist. He doesn't believe in the divine right to rule. We haven't seen any indication that he feels that one can be born with the right to rule, or that somebody is either fit or deserving of political power by right of birth. He certainly didn't have any problem subjugating the monarchies.

We know that he, personally, feels that his rule is justified to stop the chaos of the Long War, and that he assumes his own son would replace him and continue his work, although how much of that is due to a belief that his empire is rightfully ruled by a Wulfenbach, vs Gil being groomed from birth for the role isn't especially clear. There was talk early on about how if Gil didn't live up to his expectations, he'd just break him down for spare parts and start over.


We know that he's refused the Monarchist trappings he could have claimed. His nation is an Empire, but he keeps the title of "Baron", perhaps because he doesn't want to play that particular game, or because he's a romantic monarchist at heart who feels that, while his conquests were necessary, he is not the Rightful ruler of anything beyond his initial barony.
He's also expressed a hatred for ruling.

I think Klaus would say that Monarchs are jerks and hypocrites. I'd say that Klaus would say this while recognizing himself as a Monarch, and therefore the biggest jerk and hypocrite of them all.




From what we can tell, his political philosophy seems to largely begin and end at "SOMEBODY Needs to be in charge, and I can't trust anybody else".

[Rogar Demonblud]

And a heaping dose of "Don't make me come over there".

[Radar]

In the background - a display marked "Moon Cheese" and another labeled "Our Terrifying Solar System". Support for the planetary travel capabilities of Sparks has been provided. Tenuously, support for Skifander being on another planet - not definitive, but somewhat more plausible.

Yes, I know the Heterodyne boys went to Mars. In a rowboat. Even they seemed to think that was unusual.

EDIT #2:

The Heterodyne boys found a Martian Dragon in the basement of Castle Heterodyne. Which is located where it is because the waters of the Dyne contain energies that the Heterodynes learned to tap.

So ... maybe ... there's some sort of connection between that location and other planets, which accounts for the Dyne being powerful, and for the dragon showing up in their basement? And maybe The Other will need Castle Heterodyne to complete a nefarious scheme? Which may mean The Other will help Agatha free Mechanicsburg (without revealing herself, of course)?

Well, we were able to view the planets way before we could send anything there. So it might also be that the Sparks simply studied them from Earth. Major point against space travel is lack of this technology used for anything else. All flying machines are moved either by a standard propeller or mechanical wings and going to space requires a way of gaining thrust that does not need air. I am not ruling out cavorite-based space craft, but then such a marvelous metal would have many uses on Earth as well. We also know that the queen gates are the only known teleportation method and pretty much no one knows, how to replicate them. It still leaves some possibility for traveling through other dimension, but we have no idea how that works at all, so it is difficult to speculate in that direction. We might know more, if Dr. Vapnoople ever returns.

Also important: that story about Heterodyne Boys and the Dragon from Mars was just a story Theo told the little kids starting here. It start with obvious false information that Klaus is helping the Heterodynes fight against the Other as he was not even in Europa at the time. Also in that story the Other is supposed to be the dragon from Mars.

[Rogar Demonblud]

You can push it further than that. So far, other than Gil's experimental craft, every flight capable craft we've seen relies on big bags of gas.

[Shining Wrath]

Well, we were able to view the planets way before we could send anything there. So it might also be that the Sparks simply studied them from Earth. Major point against space travel is lack of this technology used for anything else. All flying machines are moved either by a standard propeller or mechanical wings and going to space requires a way of gaining thrust that does not need air. I am not ruling out cavorite-based space craft, but then such a marvelous metal would have many uses on Earth as well. We also know that the queen gates are the only known teleportation method and pretty much no one knows, how to replicate them. It still leaves some possibility for traveling through other dimension, but we have no idea how that works at all, so it is difficult to speculate in that direction. We might know more, if Dr. Vapnoople ever returns.

Also important: that story about Heterodyne Boys and the Dragon from Mars was just a story Theo told the little kids starting here. It start with obvious false information that Klaus is helping the Heterodynes fight against the Other as he was not even in Europa at the time. Also in that story the Other is supposed to be the dragon from Mars.

You can push it further than that. So far, other than Gil's experimental craft, every flight capable craft we've seen relies on big bags of gas.

Our Terrifying Solar System could rely upon some Spark invention that allows observation. But the moon being made of cheese, and having a sample case thereof, implies travel through space. Teleportation? Lost technology? Taking a dirigible to the moon because this is very definitely not hard science?

[Manga Shoggoth]

The thing to remember about the Baron is that he really doesn't want the job. Running the empire us a huge distraction and he really doesn't want it. He jsut feels that he has no choice.

ALso, Tweedle has an interesting take on the matter.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Our Terrifying Solar System could rely upon some Spark invention that allows observation. But the moon being made of cheese, and having a sample case thereof, implies travel through space. Teleportation? Lost technology? Taking a dirigible to the moon because this is very definitely not hard science?

Or it's just a hoax, like the many 'samples' of moon-cheese said to have fallen to Earth at the end of the 19th Century (see also Barnum, P.T.).

[theangelJean]

Been reading Volume 2 to my daughter and speculating about the "hostages" on Castle Wulfenbach. If he were only a dictator, then the premise would be as stated: keeping the fifty families in line on the pretext of "educating" them. But I was wondering if it was really the other way around. Get the heirs of the Fifty Families together, actually educate them, let them grow up knowing each other as comrades, get to know each other's strengths and flaws, let them foster their alliances and grow up into little monarchs who actually know each other ... having all of them "get along" with each other is probably too much to ask, but that's where knowing each other's weaknesses comes in.

And call them "hostages" ... Castle Wulfenbach was the safest place in Europa as far as Klaus knew. And would having an heir as "hostage" actually work to keep a family in line anyway? Especially if you took only one - what's stopping them writing off that child and anointing another?

I'm starting to think the premise of Girl Genius is a meditation on heredity. The past is a legacy of the attempts by the most powerful Sparks to control their child's future by whateer means available to them - Lucrezia by direct download, Klaus by experimental modification and reshaping Europa - and the story itself is of the children's journey navigating the results and finding their own path.

/thesis...