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  1. - Top - End - #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by theangelJean View Post
    And call them "hostages" ... Castle Wulfenbach was the safest place in Europa as far as Klaus knew. And would having an heir as "hostage" actually work to keep a family in line anyway? Especially if you took only one - what's stopping them writing off that child and anointing another?
    The same reasons it worked historically.

    1) Nobles are still human. It's not that easy to condemn your children to death to fulfill your personal ambition.

    2) Inheritance laws are a thing. If you anoint a different child, the hostage taker can point to the law and declare it null and void. The child that just had their inheritance ripped away is also likely to be pissed off, meaning that they would support the hostage taker.

    Klaus may not have cared much more bloodlines, but the nobility did. He was exploiting that fact while simultaneously creating a generation of nobility that owes him. He keeps the nobility in line with the threat that if they rebel their kids go bye-bye. He encourages nobles to turn their kids over because they will get an incredible education. And the kids grow up away from the constant backstabbing and surrounded by evidence of the Baron's power and generosity.

  2. - Top - End - #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by theangelJean View Post
    Been reading Volume 2 to my daughter and speculating about the "hostages" on Castle Wulfenbach. If he were only a dictator, then the premise would be as stated: keeping the fifty families in line on the pretext of "educating" them. But I was wondering if it was really the other way around. Get the heirs of the Fifty Families together, actually educate them, let them grow up knowing each other as comrades, get to know each other's strengths and flaws, let them foster their alliances and grow up into little monarchs who actually know each other ... having all of them "get along" with each other is probably too much to ask, but that's where knowing each other's weaknesses comes in.

    And call them "hostages" ... Castle Wulfenbach was the safest place in Europa as far as Klaus knew. And would having an heir as "hostage" actually work to keep a family in line anyway? Especially if you took only one - what's stopping them writing off that child and anointing another?

    I'm starting to think the premise of Girl Genius is a meditation on heredity. The past is a legacy of the attempts by the most powerful Sparks to control their child's future by whateer means available to them - Lucrezia by direct download, Klaus by experimental modification and reshaping Europa - and the story itself is of the children's journey navigating the results and finding their own path.

    /thesis...
    Here is the thing. He took the heirs because he was strong enough to demand it and make it happen. Why would that change for whoever the new heir would be? That doesnt even count the likely reaction to trying to repudiate your heir like rodin said. Secondly, there can be more than one reason for having them there. Its entirely likely that his goal was to unite the families and make them work together through their heirs, and also ensure their loyalty to him because he is the one who raised them, educated them, helped them build alliances for the future, etc etc etc. "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man". Basically, he is raising them to be loyal to him and taught his outlook on ruling while at the same time keeping the current nobles in power from doing anything too drastic because he has their kids to ensure they behave. Ideally gil would have taken over in another decade or 2 tops with his fellows full grown and ready to take over their family lands and titles and gil would have had a more stable empire to run.
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  3. - Top - End - #453
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    I think there was another reason as well. Not only did Klaus give the hostages a top notch education, he was also training them to be good rulers. I think Tarvek mentions a course named "Good Rulership 101" at one point. If he can make the kids good rulers it greatly reduces the importance of people like him. Klaus was basically trying to work himself (and Gil) out of their jobs long term.
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    I said Klaus was a monarch and an authoritarian by heart because "his way" is to beat everybody into submission. Order through force, that's authorianism 101. He thinks the only way for people to work together is the presence of a supreme leader whose decisions cannot be vetoed. Still authorianism 101. He is also a monarch(ist) because he fully intends to pass his empire on to his son, for his son to do the same and so on and so on and so forth. He may have a low opinion of the other monarchs of the world but he clearly believes that system is sound and right. Wether that's true in the context of this universe is debatable but at least one of the many real-world flaws with this kind of thinking is apparent in-comic: as soon as the strongman was out of the picture all the issues he had put a lid on resurfaced as if he had never been there, namely all the madboys started rebelling even without the influence of the Other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I said Klaus was a monarch and an authoritarian by heart because "his way" is to beat everybody into submission. Order through force, that's authorianism 101. He thinks the only way for people to work together is the presence of a supreme leader whose decisions cannot be vetoed. Still authorianism 101. He is also a monarch(ist) because he fully intends to pass his empire on to his son, for his son to do the same and so on and so on and so forth. He may have a low opinion of the other monarchs of the world but he clearly believes that system is sound and right. Wether that's true in the context of this universe is debatable but at least one of the many real-world flaws with this kind of thinking is apparent in-comic: as soon as the strongman was out of the picture all the issues he had put a lid on resurfaced as if he had never been there, namely all the madboys started rebelling even without the influence of the Other.
    Thing is, Klaus has a point.
    The Brothers Heterodyne tried a different way, brought peace the "heroic" way.
    And. It. Failed. The Other attacked, they vanished and everything went back to hell.

    So I can't exactly blame the Baron, upon returning to the sheer mess Europa turned into without his friends, for deciding "My way then."

    Because honestly? It's the only way that works.
    Without someone keeping everything in check Europa would burn to ashes.
    Voltaire wasn't different. Nor is Albia.
    Ultimately the Boys were just a more idealistic version.

    And of course he wanted a successor to keep the Empire going. Anything else would be moronic.
    Because otherwise everything falls apart. Again.

    That everything almost did with the Wulfenbach forces being weakened after Mechanicsburg only proves him right in the end.
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    Klaus does care about bloodlines, at the very least because of the spark. A Heterodyne is more important than a Merlot or a von Zinzer. The reason why he used his son as a heir was probably that he needed the strongest spark he could get. And this could also have brought him to choose him as his own vessel.

    In effect, important nobles often are sparks, and autonomous rulers I remember all are (Gil, Klaus, Albia, Zeetha's mom, that other Queen, the Iron Sheik, Voltaire, Colette; not sure about the UnderParisian kings).

    Even if he wanted to think outside the box as far as non-sparks are concerned, he still lives in a world where lots of people care about bloodline, as evidenced by the Storm King conspiracies. So he has to take it in account.
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    Quote Originally Posted by theangelJean View Post
    Been reading Volume 2 to my daughter and speculating about the "hostages" on Castle Wulfenbach.
    There's been a slight semantic shift to the meaning of hostage, since about the 1970s. Nowadays when we use the word hostage, we think of criminals: terrorists, bank robbers, etc. who capture whichever random people were at the wrong place at the wrong time as a bargaining chip. Historically, though, it was still a bargaining chip but it was part of how early feudal systems worked. Let's not forget it has the same root as "host", "hospitality" or even "hotel". The vassals sent their children to their liege, who took care of their education. This allowed the liege to control the kind of values the heirs of the vassals would be taught, kept the vassals themselves in line, but also allowed the vassals to hopefully curry favor with their liege and help their heirs find suitable alliance prospects among the other hostages. In fact, the practice was once commonplace enough that some children were actually named Hostage as their name, because that was what their purpose was going to be. This is the case notably for the Germanic-origin names with the gisl root in it, like Ghislain or Giselle. Hostages were also taken after a peace treaty between two countries, sometimes even mutually, as a way keep the peace treaty alive and foster greater understanding for their neighbor in the next generation of rulers.

    This practice died off in the 18th century, though; so it could be seen as a bit anachronistic in Girl Genius; but it fits the setting and it's not like there aren't more important deviations between the real world and Sparky Europa.
    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Roamer View Post
    I think he did the only morally acceptable thing by killing everyone.
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  8. - Top - End - #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kantaki View Post
    Thing is, Klaus has a point.
    The Brothers Heterodyne tried a different way, brought peace the "heroic" way.
    And. It. Failed. The Other attacked, they vanished and everything went back to hell.

    So I can't exactly blame the Baron, upon returning to the sheer mess Europa turned into without his friends, for deciding "My way then."

    Because honestly? It's the only way that works.
    Wait what? "The Boys vanished when the Other attacks and everything went to hell therefore their way failed" and " The Baron vanished when the Other attacked and everything went to hell therefore his way works"? Pick one, you can't have both.
    Without someone keeping everything in check Europa would burn to ashes.
    Europa hasn't been kept in check by anyone for most of its history and yet it's still there.
    Voltaire wasn't different. Nor is Albia.
    Nobody said they were? Every leader in GGverse is autocratic and a monarch that's kind of the issue.
    [Quote]Ultimately the Boys were just a more idealistic version.

    And of course he wanted a successor to keep the Empire going. Anything else would be moronic.
    Because otherwise everything falls apart. Again.
    What's moronic is hoping that a bloodline would only ever produced people that can be trusted with some power, let alone absolute power, or that a leader gets to choose their successors. Checks and balances is where it's at.

    That everything almost did with the Wulfenbach forces being weakened after Mechanicsburg only proves him right in the end.
    Not it proves that he didn't solve the problems as much as sweep them under the rug. The Empire was always going to implode when he'd die because that's what happens when everything rests upon one guy being in charge.

    There's only one real solution to the situation in Europa, and that's getting rid of the Spark. If Klaus had focused on that and brought more people to help him study the spark rather than try to tame a continent that can't be tamed he might have made some progress.

    Also, Klaus failed to notice the Knights of Jove conspiracy and the servants of the Other inside his own army, so I doubt one can really say that his way worked, even in the short term.
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  9. - Top - End - #459

    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

    To be fair, nobody knew wasping produced anything other than shamblers. It was research Klaus sponsored that worked that out and started on the process of cleaning up that particular mess. And led to a wasp vaccine.

  10. - Top - End - #460
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I said Klaus was a monarch and an authoritarian by heart because "his way" is to beat everybody into submission. Order through force, that's authorianism 101. He thinks the only way for people to work together is the presence of a supreme leader whose decisions cannot be vetoed. Still authorianism 101. He is also a monarch(ist) because he fully intends to pass his empire on to his son, for his son to do the same and so on and so on and so forth. He may have a low opinion of the other monarchs of the world but he clearly believes that system is sound and right. Wether that's true in the context of this universe is debatable but at least one of the many real-world flaws with this kind of thinking is apparent in-comic: as soon as the strongman was out of the picture all the issues he had put a lid on resurfaced as if he had never been there, namely all the madboys started rebelling even without the influence of the Other.
    Gil was in charge of the empire, and we know he's not incompetent, and we know Tarvek told him that he'd probably done as well as he could. It wasn't Klaus leaving that brought down the Empire.

    It was
    1. The Jagers defecting to the Heterodyne once the Doom Bell rang. What percentage of his military might did they represent?
    2. Having a large portion of his armed forces near Mechanicsburg when Agatha managed to restore power to the Castle, and it did that thing it does when Mechanicsburg is threated


    He was ruling by force, which I fully stipulate is bad, and then a lot of his forces were taken away from him. That was what led the mad boys off the leash.
    How do you suppose a Europaean Union would have fared with most of the "nations" ruled either by autocrats or mad boys?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    To be fair, nobody knew wasping produced anything other than shamblers. It was research Klaus sponsored that worked that out and started on the process of cleaning up that particular mess. And led to a wasp vaccine.
    Klaus was driven by three things: his research, his desire for order in Europa, and his hatred of The Other. These drives did not always produce evil results. It's good that humans can't be perfectly evil any more than we can be perfectly good.
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  11. - Top - End - #461
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath
    He was ruling by force, which I fully stipulate is bad, and then a lot of his forces were taken away from him. That was what led the mad boys off the leash.
    It was also that activity by the Other and her agents (and Zola, though it's not clearly exactly which side she's on) increased drastically immediately following Klaus' disappearance. It is pretty clear that during the still unexplained final mission of the Heterodyne Boys they struck some kind of significant blow against the Other that mostly put all her active enterprises on hold - probably by eliminating all active instances of Lucrezia in this portion of the timeline. It is very significant that Lucrezia, when restored in Sturmhalten, doesn't know that Klaus returned, it represents a gap in her knowledge of thousands of years of history. It was only when Agatha becomes recognized as a potential vessel for Lucrezia, and then actually becomes such a vessel, that the Other's schemes reactivate.

    As such, maintaining stability in the Empire for Gil would be significantly more difficult than it had been for Klaus simply due to the change in circumstances. Klaus was also presumably aided in building his empire in the first place by the absence of a Heterodyne from the scene, since we know they were a traditionally destabilizing element that even the Shining Coalition failed to completely overcome.
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

    So, today's Girl Genius gives us a really good view of Bangladesh DuPree's neck and collarbones - I don't remember there being noticeable scars and stitching around the base of her neck before.

    If you look at Act 2, Volume 2, Page 62, which is after the time-skip but before Paris, Bang doesn't have the scars and stitching around her neck.

    They only appear after Bang fights the Geisterdamen in Paris. Did they cut off her head and did Gil need to sew it back on or something?
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    This has been an interesting discussion so far - I'm of the opinion that Klaus is a necessary evil for Europa. There are a handful of people capable of bringing stability to the continent, but I honestly doubt that any will be as effective as he was.



    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Europa hasn't been kept in check by anyone for most of its history and yet it's still there.
    Not really...England's underwater and most anything outside the large cities is uninhabitable because of rampant spark creations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Also, Klaus failed to notice the Knights of Jove conspiracy and the servants of the Other inside his own army, so I doubt one can really say that his way worked, even in the short term.
    Well, that's not strictly true. He did learn of both.
    Last edited by Ortho; 2020-11-10 at 11:08 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talyn View Post
    So, today's Girl Genius gives us a really good view of Bangladesh DuPree's neck and collarbones - I don't remember there being noticeable scars and stitching around the base of her neck before.

    If you look at Act 2, Volume 2, Page 62, which is after the time-skip but before Paris, Bang doesn't have the scars and stitching around her neck.

    They only appear after Bang fights the Geisterdamen in Paris. Did they cut off her head and did Gil need to sew it back on or something?
    She doesn't have the scars when she shows up in Vol 19, pages 17-19 at the breakfast between Gil and Trelawney either though - the view isn't quite as good (strangely she appears to be wearing the same outfit in that scene and the current scene only it's somehow gotten significantly more revealing in the interim).

    However, the scars have a distinct tendency to appear and disappear even from one panel to the next. For example in Vol 21 pg 63, when she stabs Tarvek, the scars are clearly present in the first two thirds of the strip only to spontaneously vanish in the final 2 panels despite no real change in distance and perspective with regard to Bang. With such a high level of inconsistency - the same thing has happened multiple times during her sparring session with Zeetha already - it's hard to make any sort of judgment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post

    1. The Jagers defecting to the Heterodyne once the Doom Bell rang. What percentage of his military might did they represent?
    It's a pretty small percentage, but a very important one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    She doesn't have the scars when she shows up in Vol 19, pages 17-19 at the breakfast between Gil and Trelawney either though - the view isn't quite as good (strangely she appears to be wearing the same outfit in that scene and the current scene only it's somehow gotten significantly more revealing in the interim).

    However, the scars have a distinct tendency to appear and disappear even from one panel to the next. For example in Vol 21 pg 63, when she stabs Tarvek, the scars are clearly present in the first two thirds of the strip only to spontaneously vanish in the final 2 panels despite no real change in distance and perspective with regard to Bang. With such a high level of inconsistency - the same thing has happened multiple times during her sparring session with Zeetha already - it's hard to make any sort of judgment.
    The first time we see her with the scar is when she's dressed in that new more revealing outfit, leaving the Mopey Tortoise as it arrives in England. As noted, it's come and gone since then. Presumably Phil and/or Cheyenne have trouble remembering to include it.

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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

    Also, Bang was not in Paris. It was Team Agatha that took on the Geisters until the Master proved why he's in charge.

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    So, Zeetha found something important or at least interesting. What is it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandofShadows View Post
    So, Zeetha found something important or at least interesting. What is it?
    The most obvious answer is that it's some sort of hint as to where Skifander is. I'll be a bit annoyed if it's a map to how to get straight to the place. And evidently on the GG Patreon page, Kaja commented that this gal is Princess Neena, whom we met earlier.
    Last edited by geoduck; 2020-11-11 at 03:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geoduck View Post
    The most obvious answer is that it's some sort of hint as to where Skifander is. I'll be a bit annoyed if it's a map to how to get straight to the place. And evidently on the GG Patreon page, Kaja commented that this gal is Princess Neena, whom we met earlier.
    I won't, I'll take just about anything to keep the plot moving forward at this point :P. Particularly if it is some sort of map only a Skifanderian can read. More likely, I guess it's just an authentic Skifanderian artifact. That will get identified by Zetha, then stolen by Steelgarter who will perform some Science! ritual using it to determine where Skifander is located, then Agatha and company steal it back while foiling the rest of Steelgarter's schemes. Hijinks, delayed art, holiday one shots, and backstabbing by Martellus expected as minor derailments.

    Quote Originally Posted by wingnutx View Post
    It's a pretty small percentage, but a very important one.
    Also it was an unquestionably loyal one, outside of matters where the until then non-existent Hetetodyne was concerned. Given how much treason, plotting, and politics he had to deal with, I imagine that having a unit you could be sure couldn't be suborned was incredibly important.
    Last edited by Thomas Cardew; 2020-11-11 at 04:40 AM.

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    Im thinking its some sort of memorial of important people who died. Important enough zeetha was able to recognize it on sight. As an example, woosters name is on the plate she is holding.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

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    Quote Originally Posted by wingnutx View Post
    It's a pretty small percentage, but a very important one.
    Percentage of power was what I had in mind, not percentage of headcount. A Jager counts as how many ordinary foot soldiers - 10? 20? Considering the battle at the bridge as one example, quite a few.

    Quote Originally Posted by HandofShadows View Post
    So, Zeetha found something important or at least interesting. What is it?
    They are in the astronomy section of the Royal Libraries. We've had foreshadowing that these people have the best maps and charts. I think some sort of indication of where Skifander is found. It has to be something that Zeetha would immediately recognize as being important with a casual glance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    Percentage of power was what I had in mind, not percentage of headcount. A Jager counts as how many ordinary foot soldiers - 10? 20? Considering the battle at the bridge as one example, quite a few.
    Pertinent to that example, I feel like the Jager three are especially competent. Jaegers seem kind of like Jaffa from Stargate -- the one on the good guy team is a practical combat god, but when the good guys have to mow down a dozen on the other side, they aren't really all that tough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    Pertinent to that example, I feel like the Jager three are especially competent. Jaegers seem kind of like Jaffa from Stargate -- the one on the good guy team is a practical combat god, but when the good guys have to mow down a dozen on the other side, they aren't really all that tough.
    I agree that the Three (well, four if you count Jenka, though we haven't seen her in action that much) are extra competent. I believe it is Dimo who says at one point that being separated from the pack seems to have made them smarter.

    But, have we ever seen minion-level Jagers? When recovering the Wasp Eaters, the Jagers seem comparable to or superior to the Vespiary Squads, who were supposed to be elite. One lone Jager was enough to take down 6 sparkwolves when distracting Martellus. And comparing the Generals with the common soldiery is probably unfair, but all the generals we've seen have been absolute monsters when in combat. The only time I can recall off the top of my head where Jagers lost badly was when the Three went and got themselves captured in Zum Zum, but even then it happened off-camera.

  25. - Top - End - #475
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailurus View Post
    I agree that the Three (well, four if you count Jenka, though we haven't seen her in action that much) are extra competent. I believe it is Dimo who says at one point that being separated from the pack seems to have made them smarter.

    But, have we ever seen minion-level Jagers? When recovering the Wasp Eaters, the Jagers seem comparable to or superior to the Vespiary Squads, who were supposed to be elite. One lone Jager was enough to take down 6 sparkwolves when distracting Martellus. And comparing the Generals with the common soldiery is probably unfair, but all the generals we've seen have been absolute monsters when in combat. The only time I can recall off the top of my head where Jagers lost badly was when the Three went and got themselves captured in Zum Zum, but even then it happened off-camera.
    I also recall Agatha being surrounded by Gil's clanks and the Jagers taking them apart like tinker toys.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailurus View Post
    I agree that the Three (well, four if you count Jenka, though we haven't seen her in action that much) are extra competent. I believe it is Dimo who says at one point that being separated from the pack seems to have made them smarter.

    But, have we ever seen minion-level Jagers? When recovering the Wasp Eaters, the Jagers seem comparable to or superior to the Vespiary Squads, who were supposed to be elite. One lone Jager was enough to take down 6 sparkwolves when distracting Martellus. And comparing the Generals with the common soldiery is probably unfair, but all the generals we've seen have been absolute monsters when in combat. The only time I can recall off the top of my head where Jagers lost badly was when the Three went and got themselves captured in Zum Zum, but even then it happened off-camera.
    And in Zum Zum they were tricked (by Othar, if I remember correctly) - not bested in combat. The only other occasion I remember is the encounter with Bears, for whom Jagers were... insignificant.
    In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.

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    The Jaeger in general seem to be in the top 5% of mad creations. They have lost a few times (against the bears, the giant weasel, against Punch, arguably against Von Pinn, against Vapnoople's summoned monsters, against Boris, and against the creatures in Sturmhalten), but they have numbers (although they obtained them over centuries), brains, and human-like bodies. Plus, they can run, unlike the bears, who are really strong and smart, but pretty slow. Overall, they are very strong, loyal, versatile, fast, and unhinged.

    Othar was actually almost killed by Jenka.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailurus View Post
    But, have we ever seen minion-level Jagers? When recovering the Wasp Eaters, the Jagers seem comparable to or superior to the Vespiary Squads, who were supposed to be elite. One lone Jager was enough to take down 6 sparkwolves when distracting Martellus. And comparing the Generals with the common soldiery is probably unfair, but all the generals we've seen have been absolute monsters when in combat. The only time I can recall off the top of my head where Jagers lost badly was when the Three went and got themselves captured in Zum Zum, but even then it happened off-camera.
    The Novels (especially the first one) show the Jagers as being a good deal sharper than they let on (starting with the leader of Klaus' bodyguard coming up with an off-the-cuff way of circumventing his order not to follow them while chasing Agatha's clank, going all the way through to the fight with the wasps at the end. Dimo and Jenka (and to a letter extent Oggie and Maxim) are sgown as a bit sharper due to having been detached.

    Quote Originally Posted by HandofShadows View Post
    I think there was another reason as well. Not only did Klaus give the hostages a top notch education, he was also training them to be good rulers. I think Tarvek mentions a course named "Good Rulership 101" at one point. If he can make the kids good rulers it greatly reduces the importance of people like him. Klaus was basically trying to work himself (and Gil) out of their jobs long term.
    Novels again: A footnote indicates that the education was a side-effect from Klaus just wanting the kids out of his hair, but gave rise to a more well-educated and enlightened ruling caste than previously.
    Warning: This posting may contain wit, wisdom, pathos, irony, satire, sarcasm and puns. And traces of nut.

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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    They are in the astronomy section of the Royal Libraries. We've had foreshadowing that these people have the best maps and charts. I think some sort of indication of where Skifander is found. It has to be something that Zeetha would immediately recognize as being important with a casual glance.
    It looks like they're memorial plaques.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    The Jaeger in general seem to be in the top 5% of mad creations. They have lost a few times (against the bears, the giant weasel, against Punch, arguably against Von Pinn, against Vapnoople's summoned monsters, against Boris, and against the creatures in Sturmhalten), but they have numbers (although they obtained them over centuries), brains, and human-like bodies. Plus, they can run, unlike the bears, who are really strong and smart, but pretty slow. Overall, they are very strong, loyal, versatile, fast, and unhinged.

    Othar was actually almost killed by Jenka.
    The Heterodynes did not lack for soldiers. But they went ahead and created the Jagermonster ritual, which killed a a goodly (unknown) percentage of those who agreed to undergo it. Since the ancient Heterodynes were seldom stupid (distinct from crazy or evil), the upgrade must have been worth the cost in soldiers. I think we can be confident that one Jager is worth several trained and equipped soldiers.

    Which is what you'd expect. The Heterodynes were among the most feared of the Mad Boy families, and for good reason.
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