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    Default Chronurgist, RAW

    My reading of the Chronurgist’s Arcane Abeyance ability, seems to be different from others’ and figured I’d see what the GitPers thought. To me, I think most follow a “Conc starts with casting, not with the effect, of a spell; but people seem to think playing this ability works the opposite (Conc starts with effect, not casting).

    Arcane Abeyance
    “Beginning at 10th level, when you cast a spell using a spell slot of 4th level or lower, you can condense the spell's magic into a mote. The spell is frozen in time at the moment of casting and held within a gray bead for 1 hour.”

    To me, this means if a Concentration spell is cast with AA, the Chronurgist must maintain Conc on said spell until the spell’s duration ends.

    This is off the assumption that since casting a new spell ends Concentration, Conc therefore starts on a spell with it’s casting, not after the act of casting, or when the effect starts (I think this is a reasonable take on the RAW, but it is not explicitly stated in the RAW). So even if the spell “is frozen in time” the caster must still maintain Conc on it, because otherwise, it would end d/t the lack of Conc.

    Now, if you play that Conc doesn’t start until the spell’s effect kicks in, then yes, the user of the mote can be the one to maintain Conc on the AA spell, rather than the Chronurgist. This seems to go against the RAW (and RAI, per JC “If you're concentrating on a spell, your concentration on it ends the moment you start casting another concentration spell” if that matters),

    So again, not explicitly stated, but it does seem that Concentration starts with casting and not with a spell’s effect.

    The rule on casting spells with longer than 1 Action time, and the rule on Ready a spell support this “Conc starts the moment casting starts” idea.

    So if Conc starts the moment a spell is cast, then using a AA on a Conc spell would require the Chronurgist’s Conc until the spell duration ends.

    Thoughts?

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    To me it seems pretty clear that you aren’t actually freezing the spell in time, otherwise the next person could cast it.

    It seems more accurate to think of it like you casting the spell and then turning that spell cast into an item, which can then be used to let someone else cast that spell.

    The spell isn’t actually active the whole time so I doubt you’d need to maintain concentration on it, and even if you for some reason did since it’s frozen in time it couldn’t ever dissipate till it was unfrozen, but unfreezing it is part of the action that also passes over “ownership” to whoever is activating the mote, and at that point it’s their spell so they’re the ones who’d need to hold concentration.

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by Meichrob7 View Post
    To me it seems pretty clear that you aren’t actually freezing the spell in time, otherwise the next person could cast it.

    It seems more accurate to think of it like you casting the spell and then turning that spell cast into an item, which can then be used to let someone else cast that spell.

    The spell isn’t actually active the whole time so I doubt you’d need to maintain concentration on it, and even if you for some reason did since it’s frozen in time it couldn’t ever dissipate till it was unfrozen, but unfreezing it is part of the action that also passes over “ownership” to whoever is activating the mote, and at that point it’s their spell so they’re the ones who’d need to hold concentration.
    Except it explicitly says it is: “The spell is frozen in time at the moment of casting”.

    Further, a lot has been made out of this ability with spells that have a casting time longer than 1 Action. So, if casting a spell like Conjure Elemental, which RAW, requires Conc during bcasting and for the spell, how does the spell drop Conc in between casting and effect, and still have an effect?

    If you don’t don’t enforce Conc on the spells, you’re going against RAW: “Concentration:
    Some spells require you to maintain concentration in order to keep their magic active. If you lose concentration, such a spell ends.”

    As nothing in the ability even mentions Conc, there is no Specific-Over-General in play.
    Last edited by RSP; 2020-09-24 at 06:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    It looks like RAW/perhaps RAI this ability is for spells without concentration. I mean playing this way makes the most sense as I agree with nothing in AA overrides the need for concentration from the caster specifically.

    This stops most of the abuses with AA and it still allows the raging barbarian to throw a fireball.

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    The only wording that even implies that concentration could be involved is "and the spell treats the creature who released it as the caster for all other purposes" one of those purposes being concentration.

    Wild take (just to make sense of it) but freezing the spell in time prevents it from ending, it doesn't technically matter if your concentration ends (not that the spell can tell, it's frozen in time) because the spell is stuck in a moment where you were. As soon as it's activated, spell now checks for the one who activated the bead as the one concentrating. That's assuming concentration is even supposed to matter on a spell frozen in time.

    Wording is definitely poor though, something explicitly related to concentration should have been mentioned.
    Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2020-09-24 at 06:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    Wild take (just to make sense of it) but freezing the spell in time prevents it from ending, it doesn't technically matter if your concentration ends (not that the spell can tell, it's frozen in time) because the spell is stuck in a moment where you were. As soon as it's activated, spell now checks for the one who activated the bead as the one concentrating. That's assuming concentration is even supposed to matter on a spell frozen in time.
    I can see this interpretation as well.

    Think of it like this: Let's say you're playing a video game and you're doing something that requires you to hold down a button (perhaps a grab button, where releasing it will throw whatever you're holding). You gotta pee, so you pause the game to go use the bathroom. Once paused, you release the button. Your little bro comes along while you're taking a leak, and picks up the controller. He unpauses the game, making sure to hold down the grab button while doing so. End result is that the grab is maintained, even though you didn't hold the button the whole time, and now it's your little bro holding the button, not you.

    Not sure this is RAW or RAI, but it makes sense.

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    I can see this interpretation as well.

    Think of it like this: Let's say you're playing a video game and you're doing something that requires you to hold down a button (perhaps a grab button, where releasing it will throw whatever you're holding). You gotta pee, so you pause the game to go use the bathroom. Once paused, you release the button. Your little bro comes along while you're taking a leak, and picks up the controller. He unpauses the game, making sure to hold down the grab button while doing so. End result is that the grab is maintained, even though you didn't hold the button the whole time, and now it's your little bro holding the button, not you.

    Not sure this is RAW or RAI, but it makes sense.
    Definitely not RAW.

    The issue with this view is it gives a whole new ruleset for the Chronurgist: the “frozen in time” rule. Under this, does the level 6 ability also not break Conc when used in a caster maintain Conc, due to the caster being “on pause”?

    Just curious how you’re seeing this play out.

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    Just wanted to point out that Matt Mercer, who either wrote or was heavily involved in the writing of the Chronirgist, has no issues with effects allowing a wizard to cast Comcentration spells without having to bother with Concentration.

    One of the Dunamamcy spells he wrote (although I don't think it made it into the Wildemount book) even involves the wizard (Concentration-free) invoking a double who can cast any spell the wizard has prepared and maintain Concentration indepenently (while spending its own spell slots).

    Doesn't give an answer, but might provide context/insight.

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Just wanted to point out that Matt Mercer, who either wrote or was heavily involved in the writing of the Chronirgist, has no issues with effects allowing a wizard to cast Comcentration spells without having to bother with Concentration.

    One of the Dunamamcy spells he wrote (although I don't think it made it into the Wildemount book) even involves the wizard (Concentration-free) invoking a double who can cast any spell the wizard has prepared and maintain Concentration indepenently (while spending its own spell slots).

    Doesn't give an answer, but might provide context/insight.
    Mercer’s also known for overtuned homebrew, and allowing more powerful options for his players; which I think is definitely what’s occurring with the Chronurgist, which can auto-defeat Tiamat at level 14, in two rounds, using Simulacrum, Banishment and its level 14 ability, RAI.

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsp29a View Post
    Mercer’s also known for overtuned homebrew, and allowing more powerful options for his players; which I think is definitely what’s occurring with the Chronurgist, which can auto-defeat Tiamat at level 14, in two rounds, using Simulacrum, Banishment and its level 14 ability, RAI.
    I'd hardly say he's known for his homebrew being overtuned, in fact I think in most cases of it that I've seen they slide out on the weaker end of things (several iterations of Blood Hunter were nearly unusable in melee, Cobalt Soul Monk has seen a full rewrite, nobody even talks about Blood Cleric or that one subclass that let you possess furniture) barring exceptional cases.

    Convergent Future doesn't bypass Legendary Resistance either (Tiamat has 5 of them), so it's not really "auto defeating" Tiamat, having to be within 60ft of Tiamat for 2 rounds (actually 3 unless you have 2 Simulacrum) sounds dangerous for a 14th level Wizard. The more simulacrum you add, the better Tiamat's odds get since you're forced to stay in Banish/Convergent Future range giving her several opportunities to use breath weapons.

    Oh and unless you're upcasting Banishment to 7th level, she's immune. Guess you actually need 5 or 6 Simulacrum. I don't think a 14th level Wizard can actually make more than 1 Simulacrum though and still maintain the ability to Banish Tiamat, since the Simulacrum would need to duplicate itself, expending its 7th level slot which it can't regain. There's a reason you need Wish to properly abuse Simulacrum.

    Long story short: No, a 14th level Chronurgy Wizard cannot banish Tiamat. An 18th level one probably could, and I'd put the odds at near guaranteed for 20th level "Gandalf of the White Room".
    Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2020-10-03 at 02:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    The more simulacrum you add, the better Tiamat's odds get since you're forced to stay in Banish/Convergent Future range giving her several opportunities to use breath weapons.
    You aren't forced to stay in range, only to enter range before casting Banishment. If you're on a Phantom Steed you could end each round 100' to 200' outside Banishment range.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    Oh and unless you're upcasting Banishment to 7th level, she's immune. Guess you actually need 5 or 6 Simulacrum. I don't think a 14th level Wizard can actually make more than 1 Simulacrum though and still maintain the ability to Banish Tiamat, since the Simulacrum would need to duplicate itself, expending its 7th level slot which it can't regain. There's a reason you need Wish to properly abuse Simulacrum.

    Long story short: No, a 14th level Chronurgy Wizard cannot banish Tiamat. An 18th level one probably could, and I'd put the odds at near guaranteed for 20th level "Gandalf of the White Room".
    Yeah, good point about immunity.

    An 18th level one can not only defeat her, he can Planar Bind her.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-10-03 at 02:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    You aren't forced to stay in range, only to enter range before casting Banishment. If you're on a Phantom Steed you could end each round 100' to 200' outside Banishment range.
    The reaction range for Convergent Future is 60ft. But you're right, I overlooked the part where you can simply react to your own spell and then move out of range.

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    I'd hardly say he's known for his homebrew being overtuned, in fact I think in most cases of it that I've seen they slide out on the weaker end of things [...] barring exceptional cases.
    Well it's less his homebrews being overtuned and more his Wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    several iterations of Blood Hunter were nearly unusable in melee
    Yeah, self-mutilation isn't an efficient combat technique. As Mollymauk Tealeaf discovered fist hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    Cobalt Soul Monk has seen a full rewrite
    And stripped of nearly all its INT-related features except some skills proficiencies and expertises.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    and I'd put the odds at near guaranteed for 20th level "Gandalf of the White Room".
    Nice one.

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    Man, good thing other wizard subclasses aren't able to take down Tiamat solo at higher levels in white room scenarios, that might be an optimizer's ideal class.

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsp29a View Post
    Definitely not RAW.

    The issue with this view is it gives a whole new ruleset for the Chronurgist: the “frozen in time” rule. Under this, does the level 6 ability also not break Conc when used in a caster maintain Conc, due to the caster being “on pause”?

    Just curious how you’re seeing this play out.
    In popular parlance something being referred to as "being frozen in time" generally means the aforementioned thing, that is "frozen in time", is exempt from the normal quotidian requirements of existing.

    The movie Encino Man, doesn't work if the person trapped in the block of ice for tens of thousands of years, actually died of starvation eons ago.

    In terms of play, Arcane Abeyance's write up is very similar to an Artificer's Spell Storing Item power. The artificer write up explicitly mentions Concentration, but the same requirements are also indicated in Arcane Abeyance write up, just more subtly.

    This is my personal opinion, but I don't like bans enforced by means of "technical" interpretations of the rules. Technical bans, undercut the trust needed for a game, (or a society in the case of laws) to function.

    RSP29a, just bring up to your players That you are troubled with using Arcane Abeyance in conjunction with spells with the duration of Concentration.

    All participants in a game have the right to be comfortable including the DM.
    That is also RAW.:)
    Last edited by Satori01; 2020-10-03 at 04:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    Convergent Future doesn't bypass Legendary Resistance either (Tiamat has 5 of them), so it's not really "auto defeating" Tiamat, having to be within 60ft of Tiamat for 2 rounds (actually 3 unless you have 2 Simulacrum) sounds dangerous for a 14th level Wizard. The more simulacrum you add, the better Tiamat's odds get since you're forced to stay in Banish/Convergent Future range giving her several opportunities to use breath weapons.
    Apologies: I didn’t realize she had more LR.

    CF isn’t bypassing LR (otherwise it would be a one-Action win), it’s forcing a failure on the save forcing the use of a LR.

    But the point still stands: CF is broken, particularly when used with Simulacrum. If you prefer looking at Demogorgon, who does have 3/LRs. 2 rounds to permanently Banishment.

    I’m unaware of any other class/subclass that can do that, but if you are, please share.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satori01 View Post
    In popular parlance something being referred to as "being frozen in time" generally means the aforementioned thing, that is "frozen in time", is exempt from the normal quotidian requirements of existing.

    The movie Encino Man, doesn't work if the person trapped in the block of ice for tens of thousands of years, actually died of starvation eons ago.
    I’m not sure what Encino Man has to do with this: are presenting an argument that Brendan Frasier’s Character maintained concentration on a spell throughout his waiting to thaw?

    The caster needs to maintain concentration throughout the duration of a concentration spell. Look at Time Stop. It literally stops time for everything but the caster, however, the caster still needs to maintain Conc on anything they’ve cast. Just because the spell is “stopped in time” doesn’t remove the Conc requirements.

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsp29a View Post
    Apologies: I didn’t realize she had more LR.

    CF isn’t bypassing LR (otherwise it would be a one-Action win), it’s forcing a failure on the save forcing the use of a LR.
    She's also immune to anything but 7th level banishment, just to make that clear, a 14th level Wizard literally cannot beat Tiamat (or even lowly Rakshasa) with this strategy.

    But the point still stands: CF is broken, particularly when used with Simulacrum. If you prefer looking at Demogorgon, who does have 3/LRs. 2 rounds to permanently Banishment.
    It's not as if the Wizard is doing this for free, it does give them a point of exhaustion that is specially noted as being only removed via long resting. Sure, you "win" the encounter with this method, but sometimes banishing something away isn't exactly the goal. You're taking two levels of exhaustion to take down a single creature that must be from a different plane of existence.

    That's not to deny that the ability is quite powerful, I'm just not at all concerned with it breaking the game wide open if I'm already letting someone play a high level Spellcaster to begin with.
    I’m unaware of any other class/subclass that can do that, but if you are, please share.
    A Divination Wizard could achieve similar results using their 2nd level feature, although nowhere near as reliably.

    This is, of course, also assuming that whatever creature you're trying to banish in this way loses initiative and is incapable of doing anything on the single turn they get that might disrupt your plan.
    Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2020-10-03 at 05:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    This is, of course, also assuming that whatever creature you're trying to banish in this way loses initiative and is incapable of doing anything on the single turn they get that might disrupt your plan.
    I wonder what happens if you use Convergent Futures on an initiative roll, since there's not any "success" or "failure" per se despite it being a Dexterity check.

    Fortunately, you also have the option to use Chronal Shift (or have a Simulacrum do so) to increase your own initiative and/or decrease your enemy's initiative.

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I wonder what happens if you use Convergent Futures on an initiative roll, since there's not any "success" or "failure" per se despite it being a Dexterity check.

    Fortunately, you also have the option to use Chronal Shift (or have a Simulacrum do so) to increase your own initiative and/or decrease your enemy's initiative.
    Chronal Shift also says that it triggers on a check that succeeds or fails, so I'm not really sure what to do at this point. I suppose at least for Chronal Shift it's a lot easier to adjudicate, it's just a reroll.

    It does take your reaction for this as well, so in the event that you take the two attempts (yours and the simulacrum's) and still manage to end up second for whatever reason, you're also down your reaction for the enemies turn in combat.

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsp29a View Post

    I’m not sure what Encino Man has to do with this: are presenting an argument that Brendan Frasier’s Character maintained concentration on a spell throughout his waiting to thaw?

    The caster needs to maintain concentration throughout the duration of a concentration spell.
    The idea of "being frozen in time" usually includes the idea of not aging, not needing to eat, not decaying, etc.

    The artificer's Spell Storing Item does not require Concentration to be maintained by the artificer when SSI is used to hold a Concentration spell.

    Beyond the disparity in the level of spell allowed to be stroked and number of uses, Arcane Abeyance and SSI perform in a similar fashion.

    If Concentration is required to be maintained by the Wizard, but another character uses the magical mote from AA, how exactly are you going to rule on the passing of the Concentration baton?

    Once Concentration ends the spell ends. I don't believe the rules address a transfer of Concentration on a spell from one character to another.
    Last edited by Satori01; 2020-10-03 at 09:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    That's not to deny that the ability is quite powerful, I'm just not at all concerned with it breaking the game wide open if I'm already letting someone play a high level Spellcaster to begin with.

    A Divination Wizard could achieve similar results using their 2nd level feature, although nowhere near as reliably.

    This is, of course, also assuming that whatever creature you're trying to banish in this way loses initiative and is incapable of doing anything on the single turn they get that might disrupt your plan.
    Disagree on Div doing the same: Demigorgon has +16 Cha save; a 14 Wizard will have a 18 DC. So for the Div to do the same, they, and their Simulacrum, would need to roll 1’s and 2’s on their Portent rolls that day.

    Possible? I guess, in theory, but I’m not banking on that. Also note, the ability isn’t limited to actual real numbers on a die roll. A creature could have a +22 Cha Save and CF would still have it fail.

    The point is, the ability flat out destroys encounters. Simulacrum gives you 5 “I win” buttons at the cost of 1,500 gold (which shouldn’t be an issue for a 14 Wizard).

    And the Simulacrum can LR to drop Exhaustion. It can literally just be a CF battery.

    In this situation, the rest of the party is just fodder for the Demogorgon while the Chronurgist does their thing. And, technically, they could have the Cleric do a casting of Banishment (not sure there’s anything noticeable about using CF: it would basically just be the Cleric’s casting), but that’s probably the end of the Cleric.

    And if the idea is Banishing the Demogorgon isn’t the end, that the DM is just using that as a prelude to the real BBEG and to wear out the Chronurgist, well, that means the rest of the group now has to do that fight with their tank’s HP total down ~70 due to the tentacle attacks, and the Cleric is now under the effects of Feeblemind.

    And the Chronugist still has 2 more uses of CF at their disposal, and 3 from the Simulacrum.

    Not sure how the campaign always has Demogorgon as the prelim bout, but messing that just to counter one character’s ability, is pretty much the definition of “broken”.

    As for going first, the Chronurgist is probably winning Initiative due to their Int to Initiative bonus (~+7 for Chronurgist, vs +2 for Demogorgon).

    And if this ability makes Demogorgon, a CR 26 encounter, a 2-round win, what’s it doing for level-appropriate encounters?

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsp29a View Post
    Disagree on Div doing the same: Demigorgon has +16 Cha save; a 14 Wizard will have a 18 DC. So for the Div to do the same, they, and their Simulacrum, would need to roll 1’s and 2’s on their Portent rolls that day.
    I understand that, I did say it wasn't as reliable.

    And the Simulacrum can LR to drop Exhaustion. It can literally just be a CF battery.
    You only drop one level of exhausting per long rest, and this strategy has you using it twice (per character). Not a problem if you have ample downtime available, but not a fantastic strategy if you know you'll be seeing regular combat encounters.

    In this situation, the rest of the party is just fodder for the Demogorgon while the Chronurgist does their thing. And, technically, they could have the Cleric do a casting of Banishment (not sure there’s anything noticeable about using CF: it would basically just be the Cleric’s casting), but that’s probably the end of the Cleric.
    I see we're doing that thing where we add more and more variables until I must accept that it's entirely reasonable and definitely likely to work. We could talk about the perfect set up all day long, but I don't see how that impacts how it would perform under regular circumstances. Your Wizard probably isn't using this ability regularly, exhaustion is a big limiting factor when you leave the "the world is a white box where me and my friends fight a big thing and then the world ends" mentality.

    And if the idea is Banishing the Demogorgon isn’t the end, that the DM is just using that as a prelude to the real BBEG and to wear out the Chronurgist, well, that means the rest of the group now has to do that fight with their tank’s HP total down ~70 due to the tentacle attacks, and the Cleric is now under the effects of Feeblemind.
    Or, the mission was simply to kill a/the Demogorgon, and banishing it like this doesn't actually win the encounter.

    And if this ability makes Demogorgon, a CR 26 encounter, a 2-round win, what’s it doing for level-appropriate encounters?
    I'd say a well and truly level appropriate encounter isn't Wizard and his Goons versus Single Big Bad, because if anything has been proven about 5E it's that Wizard and his Goons will trounce Single Big Bad in almost every conceivable case.

    Or, why is the Demogorgon outside of Abysm in the first place? Banishing him doesn't do a whole lot in his lair. At least when we were discussing Tiamat there is a written example of how and why Tiamat could be found somewhere other than the nine hells.
    Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2020-10-03 at 09:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    I understand that, I did say it wasn't as reliable.
    “Less reliable” is a bit of an understatement.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    You only drop one level of exhausting per long rest, and this strategy has you using it twice (per character). Not a problem if you have ample downtime available, but not a fantastic strategy if you know you'll be seeing regular combat encounters.
    Sure, but if the only way to combat the ability is by removing downtime, you’ve taken a lot out of the game, I’d say. Not sure how others do it, but at every table I’ve played at, downtime is used as an option for Character choices. Now using that to learn a skill, hunt for clues to develop side stories, research, hunt artifacts, whatever, is gone.

    Or it’s not, and the exhaustion isn’t a big deal.

    And you don’t seem to be recognizing that a Simulacrum dying of exhaustion doesn’t really have a negative effect on the PCs. And that death is 5 auto failures. 1,500 for 5 auto-failed saves equals 300 gold per auto fail (or auto success if saving a PC). I imagine most PCs would willingly pay that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    Or, the mission was simply to kill a/the Demogorgon, and banishing it like this doesn't actually win the encounter.
    Unless my lore is out of date (it could be) Banishing it and killing it do the same thing when either is done on the material plane.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    Or, why is the Demogorgon outside of Abysm in the first place? Banishing him doesn't do a whole lot in his lair. At least when we were discussing Tiamat there is a written example of how and why Tiamat could be found somewhere other than the nine hells.
    I guess I’ll just leave this be.

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsp29a View Post
    Unless my lore is out of date (it could be) Banishing it and killing it do the same thing when either is done on the material plane.
    You're better off Flesh to Stoning it or Planar Binding it (possibly via Wish, but there are ways to do it normally too, including via Flesh to Stone).

  25. - Top - End - #25
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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    You're better off Flesh to Stoning it or Planar Binding it (possibly via Wish, but there are ways to do it normally too, including via Flesh to Stone).
    Not really. FtS is a 6th level spell; Banishment is 4th. At 14 you have 1 casting of FtS, 2 if Simulacrum is around. You cast it, use CF on the Save, and then LR kicks in and the spell fails. Similar with PB via Wish. Even if you burned through LRs first, FtS gives them 3 more saves (basically 3 more CFs and 3 more levels of exhaustion).

    Now if you got the LRs out of the way first, sure, drop a Wished-8th-level-PB; but I imagine this involves burning through the LR with Banishment and CF.
    Last edited by RSP; 2020-10-04 at 12:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsp29a View Post
    Not really. FtS is a 6th level spell; Banishment is 4th. At 14 you have 1 casting of FtS, 2 if Simulacrum is around. You cast it, use CF on the Save, and then LR kicks in and the spell fails. Similar with PB via Wish.

    Now if you got the LRs out of the way first, sure, drop a Wished-8th-level-PB; but I imagine this involves burning through the LR with Banishment and CF.
    Yes, obviously. Or even Tasha's Hideous Laughter.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-10-04 at 12:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Yes, obviously. Or even Tasha's Hideous Laughter.
    Though this also isn’t doable at level 14.

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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsp29a View Post
    Though this also isn’t doable at level 14.
    I don't really agree* but I also don't care--I'm not making a point about which level you should do it at. I'm just saying that Banishment is not the best endgame for you.

    * If you have two 14th level wizards in the party you can still set up a Simulacrum chain at 14th level just by duplicating the wizard who's still got his 7th level spell slot, then using that to duplicate the Chronurgist. Voila! Now you have a whole pile of Chonurgist simulacra with 1st-6th level spell slots including the ability to Flesh to Stone Demogorgon. Then you can Planar Bind him and then turn him back to flesh.

  29. - Top - End - #29
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    Default Re: Chronurgist, RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I don't really agree* but I also don't care--I'm not making a point about which level you should do it at. I'm just saying that Banishment is not the best endgame for you.
    The endgame is showing how CF is overpowered, in this instance. Showing how a 14th level Wizard defeats the biggest baddest demon in the game in 2 turns with a 4th level spell, in my opinion, is better proof of that, than using 6th level spells in 5 turns.

    Certainly, though, if I’m the chronurgist, I’ll want to use the method that gets Demogorgon as my pet from here on out.

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