Conjure Elemental and Planar Binding RAW

[Satori01]

If what you said was true you could never set up traps using spells like, say, Hold Person because you don't have a target. And the Glyph clearly mentions spells that target a creature.
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I'm afraid you are misunderstanding. It is the Planar Binding Spell that has the requirement that the creature has to be present during the casting of the spell.

So a Planar Binding spell stored in a Spell Glyph version of Glyph of Warding, and triggered to target an elemental in range doesn't help, because the elemental in range hasn't been in range of the Planar Binding spell for the entirety of casting Planar Binding.

You explicitly are casting the spell that is being saved in the Spell Glyph as part of the creation of the Glyph.

[Satori01]

Conjure Elemental isn't 600-round spell. It's 1-hour spell. A round isn't an unit of measuring time, it's an abstract construct that only exists to make combat playable.

Besides, you can't do it on your own anyway. Conjure Elemental ends the moment you start casting Planar Binding due to broken concentration, the elemental disappears 1 hour (not 600 rounds) after it appeared, due to spell's wording. Planar Binding can't extend the duration of a spell that has already ended.

Right, but that just means you are using Planar Binding on a Free Willed elemental, and Planar Binding has no interaction now with the spell that brought the elemental.

Planar Binding certainly has tricky interactions. While most people would never do this, since the demons summoned by SLD spell are automatically hostile, using Planar Binding with SLD creates unreliable servants. Always.

[Valmark]

I'm afraid you are misunderstanding. It is the Planar Binding Spell that has the requirement that the creature has to be present during the casting of the spell.

So a Planar Binding spell stored in a Spell Glyph version of Glyph of Warding, and triggered to target an elemental in range doesn't help, because the elemental in range hasn't been in range of the Planar Binding spell for the entirety of casting Planar Binding.

You explicitly are casting the spell that is being saved in the Spell Glyph as part of the creation of the Glyph.

So you can cast hold person on a wall (regardless of wether it'll fail or not)?

Another issue is that while you are 'casting' a spell you aren't going through the whole casting time. Let's say I use Glyph of Warding to inscribe Banishment- I'm never using an action to cast the second spell.

Let's say I want to inscribe Awaken- I'm not spending 8 hours for it.

Let's say I want to inscribe Alarm- I'm not spending 1 minute casting it.

I don't even pick which spell it is if at all until the casting time of Glyph is done!

[JackPhoenix]

Right, but that just means you are using Planar Binding on a Free Willed elemental, and Planar Binding has no interaction now with the spell that brought the elemental.

Which doesn't really help you, because even if you cast the PB (propably through Wish, or by using common sense instead of RAW), the elemental is still gonna disappear an hour after it was summoned. It's still bound, but good luck making any use of it while it's in its home plane.

So you can cast hold person on a wall (regardless of wether it'll fail or not)?

You can, per XGtE's clarification on what happens when you try to cast a spell on invalid target.

Another issue is that while you are 'casting' a spell you aren't going through the whole casting time. Let's say I use Glyph of Warding to inscribe Banishment- I'm never using an action to cast the second spell.

Let's say I want to inscribe Awaken- I'm not spending 8 hours for it.

Let's say I want to inscribe Alarm- I'm not spending 1 minute casting it.

I don't even pick which spell it is if at all until the casting time of Glyph is done!

You must cast the spell as a part of the GoW's casting to create a spell glyph. That means you'll have to do it at some point before the casting of GoW is finished, though it is not specified when, and there's nothing suggesting you get to ignore the spell's casting time.

You're not spending 8 hours to create GoW with Awaken: You're spending 9 hours, one for the GoW, eight for Awaken during the process of casting GoW.

[Satori01]

You can rule it that way. The consequence is that Planar Binding is nigh useless.


I hope you express this during Session 0, or allow a Player to replace a spell that doesn't meet their expectations.

[Valmark]

You can, per XGtE's clarification on what happens when you try to cast a spell on invalid target.

You must cast the spell as a part of the GoW's casting to create a spell glyph. That means you'll have to do it at some point before the casting of GoW is finished, though it is not specified when, and there's nothing suggesting you get to ignore the spell's casting time.

You're not spending 8 hours to create GoW with Awaken: You're spending 9 hours, one for the GoW, eight for Awaken during the process of casting GoW.

I feel like the notion that you can try to Hold Person a wall and similar stuff shouldn't be making me laugh this much.

Anyway, there IS something that suggests you ignore the casting time of the other spell. You need to cast it while creating the Glyph, which takes an hour- and while casting a spell with a longer casting time you can't stop doing it or the spell is interrupted. Nor can you hold Glyph until the second spell is completed.

[Twelvetrees]

Which doesn't really help you, because even if you cast the PB (propably through Wish, or by using common sense instead of RAW), the elemental is still gonna disappear an hour after it was summoned. It's still bound, but good luck making any use of it while it's in its home plane.

Have I got it right that your position would be that this line from Conjure Elemental causes the Elemental to disappear despite being Planar Bound because it isn’t the original caster that is controlling it?

An uncontrolled elemental can't be dismissed by you, and it disappears 1 hour after you summoned it.

I agree that was probably RAI, but it from what I can tell by RAW, the elemental wouldn’t meet the uncontrolled criteria for that statement to apply.


But this brings up an interesting point. From my reading of it, if a cleric were to cast Conjure Celestial and a wizard were to Planar Bind it, the celestial disappears if the cleric drops their concentration on Conjure Celestial. I doubt that’s RAI, but it seems to be the case by RAW.


And because I stumbled across this while digging into the details of Planar Binding, does anyone know how this clause of Infernal Calling would interact with Planar Binding (assuming two different casters)? I think the devil still disappears after 3d6 minutes, but would still be under the control of the caster of Planar Binding during that time.

If your concentration ends before the spell reaches its full duration, the devil doesn‘t disappear if it has become immune to your verbal commands. Instead, it acts in whatever manner it chooses for 3d6 minutes, and then it disappears.

[Valmark]

I think Jack's saying that RAW the elemental disappears because the spell has already ended, regardless of who casted what.

If the cleric drops Concentration before the celestial is Binded yeah it goes home. Otherwise no because Duration becomes 24 hours.

The devil would still be under control if Binding worked.

[JackPhoenix]

Have I got it right that your position would be that this line from Conjure Elemental causes the Elemental to disappear despite being Planar Bound because it isn’t the original caster that is controlling it?

No, the elemental disappears because Conjure Elemental ended before it was bound, thus there's no spell to extend the duration of to match the PB. Note that there's a difference between broken concentration and willingly ended concentration: the elemental will only stick around if the caster's concentration is broken (by failing the save when damaged, by being incapacitated or by casting another concentration spell), not if the caster simply stops concentrating.

But this brings up an interesting point. From my reading of it, if a cleric were to cast Conjure Celestial and a wizard were to Planar Bind it, the celestial disappears if the cleric drops their concentration on Conjure Celestial. I doubt that’s RAI, but it seems to be the case by RAW.

Not if the wizard finishes PB before the cleric stops concentrating. It's a detail of the wording: the celestial disappears when the spell ends, but successful PB extends CC's duration to match itself (24 hour or more, depending on slot used, with no concentration requirement).

And because I stumbled across this while digging into the details of Planar Binding, does anyone know how this clause of Infernal Calling would interact with Planar Binding (assuming two different casters)? I think the devil still disappears after 3d6 minutes, but would still be under the control of the caster of Planar Binding during that time.

Yep. It's the difference in wording again: Infernal Calling lists what happens when the caster's concentration ends, not just when it's broken, like Conjure Elemental, or when the spell ends, like Conjure Celestial. That means the devil *always* stick around for 3d6 minutes, regardless if the caster got hit in the face and failed his Con save to maintain concentration, stopped concentrating on his own, or because the spell's duration (and thus the caster's concentration) ended.

[Satori01]

No, the elemental disappears because Conjure Elemental ended before it was bound, thus there's no spell to extend the duration of to match the PB. Note that there's a difference between broken concentration and willingly ended concentration: the elemental will only stick around if the caster's concentration is broken (by failing the save when damaged, by being incapacitated or by casting another concentration spell), not if the caster simply stops concentrating.

Firstly the difference between ending Concentration and having one's Concentration broken is semantic, and does not result in differing results...in either situation you lose Concentration.

Secondly as the Hour Long casting time of Planar Binding does indeed require your Concentration, then as Soon as you start casting PB, your Concentration breaks, and by your reasoning Jack, the elemental sticks around for 1 hour, and is subject to PB.

PHB pg 203:
Normal activity, such as moving and attacking, doesn't interfere with concentration. The following factors can break concentration:
• Casting another spell that requires concentration . You lose concentration on a spell if you cast another spell that requires concentration. You can't concen*trate on two spells at once.
Taking damage . Whenever you take damage while you are concentrating on a spell, you must make a Constitution saving throw to maintain your concentra* tion. The DC equals 10 or half the damage you take, whichever number is higher. Ifyou take damage from multiple sources, such as an arrow and a dragon's breath, you make a separate saving throw for each source of damage.
• Being incapacitated or killed. You lose concentration on a spell if you are incapacitated or if you die.

[Twelvetrees]

Not if the wizard finishes PB before the cleric stops concentrating. It's a detail of the wording: the celestial disappears when the spell ends, but successful PB extends CC's duration to match itself (24 hour or more, depending on slot used, with no concentration requirement).

Emphasis mine. Can you point me to something that would indicate that there is no concentration requirement? As far as I can tell by RAW, this line from Planar Binding does not change the original spell's duration in such a way that the requirement would be removed.

If the creature was summoned or created by another spell, that spell's duration is extended to match the duration of this spell.

If it said something like “that spell’s duration changes to match the duration of this spell", I’d agree that is no longer required concentration (and it seems like that is likely RAI), but extended appears to indicate that only the length of time is changed.


I'd likely go with RAI in an actual game. My goal here is to see if how Planar Binding works RAW is really as silly as I think it is.

[Valmark]

Emphasis mine. Can you point me to something that would indicate that there is no concentration requirement? As far as I can tell by RAW, this line from Planar Binding does not change the original spell's duration in such a way that the requirement would be removed.

If it said something like “that spell’s duration changes to match the duration of this spell", I’d agree that is no longer required concentration (and it seems like that is likely RAI), but extended appears to indicate that only the length of time is changed.


I'd likely go with RAI in an actual game. My goal here is to see if how Planar Binding works RAW is really as silly as I think it is.

Spells that require Concentration list it as the Duration. Keeping Conjure Elemental as an example, the Duration isn't "1 hour as long as you keep Concentration" but is "Concentration, up to 1 hour". The Duration IS Concentration.

If you extend "Concentration, up to X time" to "24 hours" you effectively get rid of Concentration.

[Twelvetrees]

Spells that require Concentration list it as the Duration. Keeping Conjure Elemental as an example, the Duration isn't "1 hour as long as you keep Concentration" but is "Concentration, up to 1 hour". The Duration IS Concentration.

If you extend "Concentration, up to X time" to "24 hours" you effectively get rid of Concentration.

That’s…actually quite a good point. It took me a bit to wrap my head around, but I can see the logic behind that. Well reasoned.

[JackPhoenix]

Firstly the difference between ending Concentration and having one's Concentration broken is semantic, and does not result in differing results...in either situation you lose Concentration.

You're losing the concentration in both cases, but there is a difference between the concentration being broken and being ended willingly. Conjure Elemental is one such example, where the means matters, not just the result.

Secondly as the Hour Long casting time of Planar Binding does indeed require your Concentration, then as Soon as you start casting PB, your Concentration breaks, and by your reasoning Jack, the elemental sticks around for 1 hour, and is subject to PB.

Indeed. That's what I said before.

Anyway, there IS something that suggests you ignore the casting time of the other spell. You need to cast it while creating the Glyph, which takes an hour- and while casting a spell with a longer casting time you can't stop doing it or the spell is interrupted. Nor can you hold Glyph until the second spell is completed.

You don't have to hold anything: GoW's description presents a specific exception to the spellcasting rules, where you not only can, but have to cast both spells as part of GoW's casting. If you don't cast the other spell... and when you cast something, you'll need to use the normal casting time unless a specific exception says otherwise... you can't create the spell glyph. BB/GFB do something similar, where you have to make melee attack with a weapon to cast the spell successfully.

There's an exception, of course: using Wish to duplicate the effect allows you to ignore the requirement, but that's somewhat... inefficient... way to go around that.

[Segev]

To be fair, wish-casting planar binding does solve all the timing problems unambiguously.

[Valmark]

You don't have to hold anything: GoW's description presents a specific exception to the spellcasting rules, where you not only can, but have to cast both spells as part of GoW's casting. If you don't cast the other spell... and when you cast something, you'll need to use the normal casting time unless a specific exception says otherwise... you can't create the spell glyph. BB/GFB do something similar, where you have to make melee attack with a weapon to cast the spell successfully.

So, you agree that it is an exception to normal casting, agree that there is a precedent (BB/GFB using an action to make an attack together with the spell) but somehow GoW needs to act differently?

[Eriol]

Spells that require Concentration list it as the Duration. Keeping Conjure Elemental as an example, the Duration isn't "1 hour as long as you keep Concentration" but is "Concentration, up to 1 hour". The Duration IS Concentration.

If you extend "Concentration, up to X time" to "24 hours" you effectively get rid of Concentration.

This is probably the best and clearest way to express this concept. It was what I was getting at originally. Thank you.

[Chronos]

Or to put it another way, "Concentration, up to 24 hours" does not match "24 hours". You extend the summoning spell so its duration matches.