combat TACTICAL challenge 2

[Unoriginal]

If you guys are interested, we could try doing this situation live.


I'd be more than happy to DM it (and I promise I'll make it faster than my previous orc scenario, although play-by-post D&D is slow still). If three people are interested in playing one of the PCs each, we could see how it goes.

[MaxWilson]

Max - please show how anyone could Kite 2 opponents in a 50x50 room with 40' movement and 10 reach (on one attack). I just can't visualize it.

As you can see from the diagrams I posted earlier, I didn't actually wind up kiting all that much. Kiting in this environment relies on either (1) Spirtual Guardians from the Dodging cleric to reduce enemy speed to 20' (I mostly gave this strategy up because it was more vital to protect the Sorcerer's pocket), or difficult terrain from a Web spell (but the Sorc is busy concentrating on Haste so that's not available), or (2) Shoving a Yuan-ti prone to eat up 20' of its movement in addition to gaining advantage on my attacks and giving it disadvantage on its opportunity attack.

#1 is also very much a DM-dependent thing (does the DM rule that the Yuan-ti stops dead in its tracks 10' away from the cleric, after it finishes moving completely into the "square", because it's moved 30' and now has only a 20' speed, or does it stop when it's 14.99' away (so effectively 15'), or does it just pay double movement costs for every foot it moves within the Spirit Guardians radius?) and I wound up not wanting to have to rely on DM rulings in this context. For this same reason I didn't rely on Spiritual Weapon possibly "taking up a square", which would let me create a pocket for the sorcerer without dedicating the cleric to it, and possibly position Spirit Guardians where it can do more good.

One move that I considered but didn't wind up using: use Careful Web to slow down Yuan-tis and create friendly terrain, while Paladin uses Misty Step to kite 60' from corner to corner.



The paladin ought to drop prone at the end of his turn to ensure that the Yuan-tis have disadvantage on their next attacks against him. Hopefully next turn he can stand up and finish off one of the Yuan-tis, but if not, he can Misty Step again back into the Careful Web. I don't love this approach though--it's very resource-intensive for the Paladin, who isn't even a full caster.

Again, there are some DM rulings involved about difficult terrain and cube-tilting.

[Unoriginal]

As you can see from the diagrams I posted earlier, I didn't actually wind up kiting all that much. Kiting in this environment relies on either (1) Spirtual Guardians from the Dodging cleric to reduce enemy speed to 20' (I mostly gave this strategy up because it was more vital to protect the Sorcerer's pocket), or difficult terrain from a Web spell (but the Sorc is busy concentrating on Haste so that's not available), or (2) Shoving a Yuan-ti prone to eat up 20' of its movement in addition to gaining advantage on my attacks and giving it disadvantage on its opportunity attack.

#1 is also very much a DM-dependent thing (does the DM rule that the Yuan-ti stops dead in its tracks 10' away from the cleric, after it finishes moving completely into the "square", because it's moved 30' and now has only a 20' speed, or does it stop when it's 14.99' away (so effectively 15'), or does it just pay double movement costs for every foot it moves within the Spirit Guardians radius?) and I wound up not wanting to have to rely on DM rulings in this context. For this same reason I didn't rely on Spiritual Weapon possibly "taking up a square", which would let me create a pocket for the sorcerer without dedicating the cleric to it, and possibly position Spirit Guardians where it can do more good.

One move that I considered but didn't wind up using: use Careful Web to slow down Yuan-tis and create friendly terrain, while Paladin uses Misty Step to kite 60' from corner to corner.

[...]

The paladin ought to drop prone at the end of his turn to ensure that the Yuan-tis have disadvantage on their next attacks against him. Hopefully next turn he can stand up and finish off one of the Yuan-tis, but if not, he can Misty Step again back into the Careful Web. I don't love this approach though--it's very resource-intensive for the Paladin, who isn't even a full caster.

Again, there are some DM rulings involved about difficult terrain and cube-tilting.

Something I don't understand here: what's preventing the Abomination from using Constrict on the Sorcerer, if the PCs are disposed like that?

[MaxWilson]

Something I don't understand here: what's preventing the Abomination from using Constrict on the Sorcerer, if the PCs are disposed like that?

Nothing, but since the sorc is prone and more than 5' away, Constrict attack is at disadvantage, hits only 9% of the time after Shield.

[Frogreaver]

Major image might could be used to make a tactical choke point.

[MaxWilson]

Major image might could be used to make a tactical choke point.

What kind of illusion do you have in mind that wouldn't result in the Yuan-ti touching the image and therefore revealing the illusion?

[Unoriginal]

What kind of illusion do you have in mind that wouldn't result in the Yuan-ti touching the image and therefore revealing the illusion?

Barbed wire?

[MaxWilson]

Barbed wire?

Placed where and in what shape?

The problem I foresee is that unless the benefit to the players of the Yuan-ti avoiding the barbed wire is very small, the Yuan-ti is better off simply accepting the minor damage (2d4?) it can expect from crashing through barbed wire--which of course turns out to actually be zero damage. Even if you made it an apparent solid Wall of Fire, I'm not sure you'd be safe; I'd expect at least one attempt from each Yuan-ti to crash through a wall of fire (taking ~22 damage out of 127 HP), Constrict a PC, and pull them out through the flames (~22 damage to the PC).

Spoiler: How I'd Decide What The Yuan-ti Do About a Wall of Fire

Show

The way I'd run it is with oracle dice: roll d6, "Does this Yuan-ti attempt to crash through this Wall of Fire", 1=No, and..., 2=No, 3=No, but..., 4=Yes, but..., 5=Yes, 6=Yes, and..., with advantage for "likely" outcomes and disadvantage for "unlikely" outcomes. I'd call it likely if the Yuan-ti is above 100 HP, unlikely if it's below 50 HP, otherwise the Yuan-ti will attempt to fire arrows blindly at the sorcerer whom it knows is the caster of the ostensible Wall of Fire. For barbed wire inflicting ~2d4 I wouldn't even roll dice, that's just a straight-up yes unless there are other, caltrop-like effects.

E.g. a Yuan-ti with full HP would roll d6 with advantage. If I got 2, 4, that means I'd take the 4, which is Yes, but..., which I'd interpret as, hmmmm. "A Yuan-ti who was reluctant to go through the flames but did it anyway will probably not want to cross through it twice, if possible, so he's probably planning to just cross once and remain on the other side instead of pulling a PC out through the flames with him, because then he might have to go through it again after that PC is dead." In this case there's not much difference between 4-6 because the Wall of Fire isn't real.

[da newt]

Max - got it, with a SG or Web to create difficult terrain, then there is room to Kite enough that the YT will be forced to burn a DASH action to get into Melee. Then the PC will need to teleport or disengage to run or risk a Constrict w/ grapple and restrict, but that would cost an action or spell slot and there are 3 juicy targets, and they have long bows ...

How does your 20' WEB cube become 20X30? Are you trying 45 degree rotation on one axis ...


I'm up for a live play by play if you can find others. I'd be most comfy playing the Pali, I could Cleric, but I'm not Sorcerer savvy.

Roll20 or ?

It's also interesting that in our rolls every CONSTRICT missed. I'd expect one lucky constrict could make a big difference.

[MaxWilson]

Max - got it, with a SG or Web to create difficult terrain, then there is room to Kite enough that the YT will be forced to burn a DASH action to get into Melee. Then the PC will need to teleport or disengage to run or risk a Constrict w/ grapple and restrict, but that would cost an action or spell slot and there are 3 juicy targets, and they have long bows ...

How does your 20' WEB cube become 20X30? Are you trying 45 degree rotation on one axis ...

Yes, through rotation, and I misremembered--it should have been a 20' x 28' cube, not 20' x 30'. I'm not sure if that extra 2' really matters though--DM judgment needed. I believe the tactic still works with a 20' x 20' area too, but I haven't checked.

I'm up for a live play by play if you can find others. I'd be most comfy playing the Pali, I could Cleric, but I'm not Sorcerer savvy.

Roll20 or ?

It's also interesting that in our rolls every CONSTRICT missed. I'd expect one lucky constrict could make a big difference.

Yes, especially if it comes from Yuan-ti #1 instead of #2. Under certain circumstances it makes sense for the sorc to leave the pocket and grapple the Paladin to drag him out of the Constrict (instead of Fireballilng), so he can get his Dodge bonus back instead of a Restrained penalty. Having the cleric Sanctuary also helps some, depending on where the Paladin and the Cleric stand.

I think I'm not up for a live play of this particular scenario because it's so simplistic that I don't feel live play is needed--this thread worked pretty well already. I'm open to the idea of live play for scenarios that are analytically complex, e.g. enemy spellcasters as well as friendly ones, maybe some custom builds, opportunities for hiding and use of total/partial cover. It's hard to find time though.

Edit: I did find this nifty online tool for shared whiteboards though. I would totally use this for running these tactical scenarios: https://awwapp.com/

[da newt]

I decided to re-run this scenario but remove the YuanTi heuristic of casting FEAR (assume YuanTi would realize the PC caster would counterspell).

Then this happened:
Cleric moves up, BA casts SpW attacks HIT for 8 dam, takes DODGE action.
YT #1 moves into melee w/ Cleric, and get's lucky HIT to constrict 10 dam and Cleric is restrained, and therefor cannot DODGE so attack w/ ADV, HIT/HIT for 28 dam. Cleric is good and bloody and restrained.

Now what?
Best I could come up w/ was HEIGHTEN SUGGESTION on YT#1 (60%), but if it saves ... maybe Gaseous Form. W/ YT #2 up next it could very well roll up to YT #1 and bite, scim, scim the restrained Cleric.

[Nhorianscum]

I decided to re-run this scenario but remove the YuanTi heuristic of casting FEAR (assume YuanTi would realize the PC caster would counterspell).

Then this happened:
Cleric moves up, BA casts SpW attacks HIT for 8 dam, takes DODGE action.
YT #1 moves into melee w/ Cleric, and get's lucky HIT to constrict 10 dam and Cleric is restrained, and therefor cannot DODGE so attack w/ ADV, HIT/HIT for 28 dam. Cleric is good and bloody and restrained.

Now what?
Best I could come up w/ was HEIGHTEN SUGGESTION on YT#1 (60%), but if it saves ... maybe Gaseous Form. W/ YT #2 up next it could very well roll up to YT #1 and bite, scim, scim the restrained Cleric.

Sorc puts a hand on the cleric and casts a quickened thunder step to the paladin, he then takes the dodge action.

YT2 can do whatever.

(I'm using a list of shield, suggestion, scorching ray, thunder step, fireball, sleet storm, haste for the sorc)

Paladin lays on hands and vows YT1, it then moves up to support the clerics next move.

Cleric casts SG and regrets rushing without SG+dodge up, prays it can survive 1 round, moves up to block off the sorc and attacks with SW.

Past this fight resumes as normal (hopefully)

[da newt]

Good call on Thunder Step to extricate the cleric. Now to deal with both YT ...

[Nhorianscum]

Good call on Thunder Step to extricate the cleric. Now to deal with both YT ...

Up to you, sorc is in the pocket and the world is his rocky thing with a slimy bit of meat in the middle.

Cleric and paladin are just in butt clench mode.

[MaxWilson]

I decided to re-run this scenario but remove the YuanTi heuristic of casting FEAR (assume YuanTi would realize the PC caster would counterspell).

Then this happened:
Cleric moves up, BA casts SpW attacks HIT for 8 dam, takes DODGE action.
YT #1 moves into melee w/ Cleric, and get's lucky HIT to constrict 10 dam and Cleric is restrained, and therefor cannot DODGE so attack w/ ADV, HIT/HIT for 28 dam. Cleric is good and bloody and restrained.

Now what?
Best I could come up w/ was HEIGHTEN SUGGESTION on YT#1 (60%), but if it saves ... maybe Gaseous Form. W/ YT #2 up next it could very well roll up to YT #1 and bite, scim, scim the restrained Cleric.

Quickened Fireball + Dodge seems like a good bet here at making the sorc the top priority target, if you can do it without hitting the cleric (depends on where the cleric is standing). Heightened Suggestion on Yuan-ti #2 is also not a terrible idea. You might also be able to position yourself between Yuan-ti #2 and the cleric so it can't move into range (again, depends on positioning), which is another reason to like Quickened + Dodge over Heightened.

The Paladin may be able to help out via Wrathful Smite + Divine Smite against Yuan-ti #1 to keep it from making a second round of attacks on the cleric.

Ultimately it's a dice game and the odds are already stacked against you by the initial positioning (50' x 50' cage fight with no RP allowed, sorc in exposed position), smaller-than-usual party size and weak PC builds (like Dragon Sorc), so... when you get unlucky enough, sometimes you lose. But I think you are not as close to losing yet as you feel you are, just becaues the cleric got restrained and took heavy damage.

[Nhorianscum]

weak PC builds (like Dragon Sorc)

Sir please, let's not awaken the dreaded eater of threads "the sorc debate".

This is a safe place.

[da newt]

For my next challenge I'm thinking lvl 6 EK, WIZ, and Druid vs 4 CR3 and 2 CR2 ... More lesser badguys.



Without rescuing the Cleric, I'm thinking he's 90% dead. Even with Fireball and a failed save (unlikely) and no attacks from YT#2, the Pali and cleric will need to do 91 hp damage on their turns to kill it before it kills the cleric on it's turn...

I think best bet for the Pali is to attack x3 without GWM and dump max divine smites, but even then it averages to only 40 hp. Then Sp W and SG ... dead cleric. Or Cleric takes action to break grapple (assume Acrobatics Prof = +5, vs +4 St so 55% chance of success) and hope YT#1 attacks the Pali ...

[Nhorianscum]

For my next challenge I'm thinking lvl 6 EK, WIZ, and Druid vs 4 CR3 and 2 CR2 ... More lesser badguys.



Without rescuing the Cleric, I'm thinking he's 90% dead. Even with Fireball and a failed save (unlikely) and no attacks from YT#2, the Pali and cleric will need to do 91 hp damage on their turns to kill it before it kills the cleric on it's turn...

I think best bet for the Pali is to attack x3 without GWM and dump max divine smites, but even then it averages to only 40 hp. Then Sp W and SG ... dead cleric. Or Cleric takes action to break grapple (assume Acrobatics Prof = +5, vs +4 St so 55% chance of success) and hope YT#1 attacks the Pali ...

I really enjoyed this one.

Oh goody a wiz, my turn to cry about the arcane caster choice.

[da newt]

I do like chewing on these scenarios - I don't know if anyone else likes them, but I think I'm learning stuff so I'll keep at it.

The caster's decision tree has sooo many options, it can be complicated. As much as some have wanked about the Draconic Sorcerer, Metamagic seems to have been very handy ...

Overall, it seems like the casters dictate the success / failure and the martials are mostly support / enablers.

[Asisreo1]

Lets see what we can learn. Your objective is to defeat the enemy in combat using tactics that give you the best chance to succeed while expending the fewest resources. For simplicity, this is a locked room duel to the death, and the odds are not in your favor.

What will you do and especially WHY?

Your opponent:
TWO Yuan-Ti Abominations (CR 7, MM pg 308), each will cast fear if they can target 2 or more at the first opportunity, otherwise they will constrict then bite then scimitar every round. They will target who ever is effecting them the most. If they cannot attack w/ melee they will use their long bows.

Your Team:
lvl 6 Arcana Cleric:
V human, War Caster, 1/2 plate, shield, dagger, Lt Xbow, AC 19, 51 hp, 10 ST, 14 DX, 16 CON, 10 IN, 18 WI, 10 CH

lvl 6 Draconic Sorcerer:
V Human, War Caster, AC 15, 50 hp, 10 ST, 14 DX, 16 CO, 10 IN, 10 WI, 18 CH

lvl 6 Vengance Paladin:
V Human, PAM, GWM, Glaive, Plate, AC 18, 52 hp, 16 ST, 10 DX, 14 CON, 10 IN, 10 WI, 16 CH

The room is 50'x50' square, 25' ceiling, the walls are blank, the only feature in the room is a center 5'x5' pillar. At start - The YuanTi are each in the far corners, your Pali and Cleric are in the near corners with the Sorc along the wall between them.

Initiative order: Cleric, YuanTi 1, Sorc, YuanTi 2, Pali

You have no magic weapons, you can trade out gear if you like, you can pick any spells/proff/class options.

Before I bring up my solution, are material components good to have?

[da newt]

Yes - it is good to have material components if you wish to cast a spell that requires them. Also - yes you can start the scenario with any components you wish.

[MaxWilson]

For my next challenge I'm thinking lvl 6 EK, WIZ, and Druid vs 4 CR3 and 2 CR2 ... More lesser badguys.

Without rescuing the Cleric, I'm thinking he's 90% dead. Even with Fireball and a failed save (unlikely) and no attacks from YT#2, the Pali and cleric will need to do 91 hp damage on their turns to kill it before it kills the cleric on it's turn...

I think best bet for the Pali is to attack x3 without GWM and dump max divine smites, but even then it averages to only 40 hp. Then Sp W and SG ... dead cleric. Or Cleric takes action to break grapple (assume Acrobatics Prof = +5, vs +4 St so 55% chance of success) and hope YT#1 attacks the Pali ...

You don't need to kill the cleric, according to the terms of the thread--you just need to do enough damage to make the Yuan-ti switch targets. Since the cleric presumably did only ~10 HP with Spiritual Weapon, casting a Fireball for ~18 HP even on a successful save ought to make the Yuan-tis switch targets, according to the OP anyway.

If the Yuan-ti are the type to finish off obviously-vulnerable prey then something like that Quickened Thunder Step + Dodge, Heightened Hypnotic Pattern is a better bet. I personally have never taken Thunder Step, but then I've never played an unarmored Dragon Sorc either--maybe I would if I had, at least until Dimension Door came online. :-P Lightning Lure (+Quickened Lightning Lure?) on the Cleric also has a fair-to-moderate chance of working since you'll have advantage on your attack. It increases to excellent if the DM rules the cleric can choose to be hit, or at least choose to have an effective Dex 1 with no shield (AC 13 + no advantage). Once the cleric is no longer grappled his Dodge starts working again, unless the DM rules that "you lose this benefit [of Dodge] if... your speed drops to zero" still applies once your speed is nonzero.

I do like chewing on these scenarios - I don't know if anyone else likes them, but I think I'm learning stuff so I'll keep at it.

The caster's decision tree has sooo many options, it can be complicated. As much as some have wanked about the Draconic Sorcerer, Metamagic seems to have been very handy ...

Overall, it seems like the casters dictate the success / failure and the martials are mostly support / enablers.

Metamagic is on any sorc though. E.g. a Shadow Sorc would add a Shadow Hound that cancels out Magic Resistance while also tanking. A Wild Sorc would have advantage vs. Fear (Tides of Chaos) plus some limited ability to manipulate initiative and/or saving throws (Bend Luck). A Divine Soul could Twin Sanctuary to protect himself and a damaged cleric, as well as having a nice saving throw bonus. The Dragon Sorc... gets a small damage bonus and saves a spell slot on Mage Armor, plus some extra HP.

Casters do have a big impact on tactical outcomes (more room to make things go right or horribly wrong), but that's magnified even more than usual in this thread and the stone giant thread because you picked two scenarios scenarios where the martials are outnumbered by casters and/or pre-committed to certain courses of action (Reckless Barbarian will charge the stone giants--watch how the scenario transforms when you can make the Barbarian do something less crazy! it can turn into a long-range duel with the giants from behind Mold Earth fortifications). We've also learned some useful things that can be done regardless of spells (Dodging and creating a corner pocket to protect the sorc's concentration) or on top of spells (throwing nets). Also, these martials are pretty simplistic.

Tell you what, I'll think it over and post a martial-oriented scenario in a bit. Something where you've got three Fighters and a Druid, or something like that, instead of two casters and a Paladin.

[Nhorianscum]

@Max

Looking forward to your encounter my dude!

That said...

Does our sorc really care about anything sans roughly +16 dpr and not being in ORKO range in this setup as we're allowed to play something of an ur-sorc picking and choosing exactly the spells and metamagic we need?

A genuine question as sans bend luck we can replicate what we need here while keeping that insurance policy. (Keeping in mind that we have no prebuffs at all here)

(It seems unfair to call our sorc weak when it's been the all star in both threads this far in a party with the big boys of tier 2, namely paladin, cleric, and druid. DS is DS and is in a class of it's own but I genuinely don't feel like draconic falls behind the other subs and may be the best tier 1 sub.)