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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by dps View Post
    Keep in mind what his dad's ghost told Harry--Snake Boy wasted his curse, 'cause everyone dies alone, but you don't have to be alone until then.

    Rudolph's behavior was caused by Rudolph being an idiot.
    And yet, Harry himself remembers the words of the curse in chapter thirty six.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Braininthejar2 View Post
    And yet, Harry himself remembers the words of the curse in chapter thirty six.
    Harry has pretty persistently shown to be far more alert to and alarmed by the theoretical potential for Bad Stuff(tm) in the future. This extends to the people around him as well, where he pretty frequently attempts to keep Michael (and others, but mostly Michael) from charging into danger because it would leave his kids without a father. Very rarely is he shown to be unambiguously right in this thinking, and its certainly consistently portrayed as being a pretty negative influence on his positive relationships when it shows up.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
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    Killing Rudolph would have been murder. They weren't fighting, Rudy wouldn't have been the slightest threat to Harry at that point, and the purpose was not to defend but to punish. Harry Dresden is not a judge in the mortal world, nor is he an appointed executioner there. He had no more right to execute Rudolph than Rudolph had to kill Murphy. There is a massive difference between killing someone in battle, and killing that same person after they have surrendered - this is shown as a major in-universe concept when Murphy shatters the Sword of Faith by trying to execute Nicodemus with it. The fact that Harry was going to execute him with magic makes it an even bigger deal.

    Of course, Rudolph's a dead man walking. Even if the mortal authorities don't go after him because there's no evidence, Kincaid is still out there. Murphy and Kincaid fell out after Kincaid shot Harry (at Harry's own request), but that won't change much.
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    I would expect an almost immediate retaliation. Ie, shot rings out, Rudolph is dead by the time the empty shell casing hits the ground. There doesn't really need to be a chase scene and contemplation of a later murder, just Harry reflexively striking back at a threat, like he has done countless times before.

    This wouldn't *eed to be via magic, but if Butcher wanted to work in a reason for why Harry killed people with magic, a reaction to Murphy dying feels like a much better reason than the Octokongs or whatever third rate minions he roasted. Winter Knight reactions coupled with her death probably provides a far stronger motivation than merely wanting to dispose of obstacles.

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
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    I would expect an almost immediate retaliation. Ie, shot rings out, Rudolph is dead by the time the empty shell casing hits the ground. There doesn't really need to be a chase scene and contemplation of a later murder, just Harry reflexively striking back at a threat, like he has done countless times before.

    This wouldn't *eed to be via magic, but if Butcher wanted to work in a reason for why Harry killed people with magic, a reaction to Murphy dying feels like a much better reason than the Octokongs or whatever third rate minions he roasted. Winter Knight reactions coupled with her death probably provides a far stronger motivation than merely wanting to dispose of obstacles.
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    While immediate retaliation would be "normal", there are Knights of the Cross on the field, which means Divine Intervention is in play. The white god (and also butcher) needs Harry to pause long enough for his knight to intervene, and so a million coincidences were staged prior to put harry in a mental state where "deserves to suffer" is the "not excercising free will" choice.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Spoiler: Lara
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    I noticed Lara yelling at Harry at the end of the book for allegedly "not communicating" about Goodman Grey guarding Justine.

    However, he specifically tells her he was doing just that in Peace Talks. Maybe she just doesn't listen to him.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Sloanzilla View Post
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    I noticed Lara yelling at Harry at the end of the book for allegedly "not communicating" about Goodman Grey guarding Justine.

    However, he specifically tells her he was doing just that in Peace Talks. Maybe she just doesn't listen to him.
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    Its like theyre already married
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Phew, that was a wild ride.....


    So far a meaningful and powerful book, but I dont think I particlarly LIKE it.

    Spoiler: Also
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    Drakul himself was mentioned back in earlier Books, when it is revealed Kincaid is his Spawn, as "the original Creature", and there is made fun of DraculA running to the BLack Court.
    Ergo this being Drakul(san A) made absolutely no Sense whatsoever in that context.

    You dont run rebelliously from your father to become...intentionally that is, just as him.

    Secondly he hawkes at least 3 times of the Erlking being "a powerful Vassal of Mab".
    He isnt. he is Wild Fae.
    He is clearly being "hired" by Mab for this gig, ergo her subordinate in this War, but not in general her Vassal any more than Odin is.

    These 2, coming before the Schlachtfest stuck me sorely "wrong".

    More after a second read these next few days.


    Last edited by GrayDeath; 2020-10-21 at 04:22 PM.
    A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”


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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakaydos View Post
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    While immediate retaliation would be "normal", there are Knights of the Cross on the field, which means Divine Intervention is in play. The white god (and also butcher) needs Harry to pause long enough for his knight to intervene, and so a million coincidences were staged prior to put harry in a mental state where "deserves to suffer" is the "not excercising free will" choice.
    Spoiler
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    Why would there be any diefic need for this cop, who has been, all told, a bit of a jerk with regularity, and not of significant note otherwise, and not...any of the vast numbers of other people around and dying?

    That ends up feeling significantly MORE trope-problematic, because it's literally enforced morality because this dude has a name, and for no other reason.

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
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    Why would there be any diefic need for this cop, who has been, all told, a bit of a jerk with regularity, and not of significant note otherwise, and not...any of the vast numbers of other people around and dying?

    That ends up feeling significantly MORE trope-problematic, because it's literally enforced morality because this dude has a name, and for no other reason.
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    Because if Harry decides that might makes right and that it's his place to remove inconvenient mortals, that becomes incredibly dangerous. Both for him (deciding that you have the right to end a human life because you feel like it is soul damaging, especially if done with magic because of the necessities of intent there) and for the rest of the world (it absolutely sucks for mortals when supernaturals decide that they get to boss others around just because they can). And that's before you get into the whole Starborn thing that makes Harry even more special than any other decently talented wizard.

    And then of course there's the thing where God and the knights are all about giving people more chances. Remember that if a denarian gives up the coin mid-fight, they'll hold their blows and accept surrender. They're all about you having the option to make new and better choices tomorrow.

    I mean, there's clearly an angle of author tract there, in having the scene exist at all. But in universe, once the knights were in the area, it's entirely in character for them to have done what they did.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
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    Why would there be any diefic need for this cop, who has been, all told, a bit of a jerk with regularity, and not of significant note otherwise, and not...any of the vast numbers of other people around and dying?

    That ends up feeling significantly MORE trope-problematic, because it's literally enforced morality because this dude has a name, and for no other reason.
    Spoiler: Rudolf and the Winter Knight
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    The cop chose his own path- the white god's nature isnt to alter or abridge those choices. But the effect of that confrontation, with the white god's champions so close at hand, was to brand the Winter Knight with a reminder of his humanity, just before raising an army with a psychic link that would make it terribly easy to abandon his humanity.

    Ruddolf chose to confront our heros, and be super jittery about it. But the White God was the one who arranged for the gun to accidently go off, with an instantly fatal shot on Murphy. (dont tell me that's not what the white god does- that is EXACTLY his servant Uriel's deal) And why does the White God let bad things happen to good people? A Winter Knight who retains his humanity, the defeat of Walker Beside, Taking an artifact of Hate off the playing field... even a new immortal viking warrioress, available just in time for the final battle, if everyone who knew her gets caught up in events hard enough to forget about her.

  11. - Top - End - #71
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
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    Killing Rudolph would have been murder. They weren't fighting, Rudy wouldn't have been the slightest threat to Harry at that point, and the purpose was not to defend but to punish. Harry Dresden is not a judge in the mortal world, nor is he an appointed executioner there. He had no more right to execute Rudolph than Rudolph had to kill Murphy. There is a massive difference between killing someone in battle, and killing that same person after they have surrendered - this is shown as a major in-universe concept when Murphy shatters the Sword of Faith by trying to execute Nicodemus with it. The fact that Harry was going to execute him with magic makes it an even bigger deal.

    Of course, Rudolph's a dead man walking. Even if the mortal authorities don't go after him because there's no evidence, Kincaid is still out there. Murphy and Kincaid fell out after Kincaid shot Harry (at Harry's own request), but that won't change much.
    Spoiler
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    True Rudolph is lucky that the Archive fired Kincaid because of what happened in Changes. If he had been in his role of her bodyguard, Rudolph would have been killed as soon as Kincaid knew what happened to Murphy.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by lowfyr View Post
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    True Rudolph is lucky that the Archive fired Kincaid because of what happened in Changes. If he had been in his role of her bodyguard, Rudolph would have been killed as soon as Kincaid knew what happened to Murphy.
    Spoiler
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    Is that actually canon, or just an assumption people are making?
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    GrayDeath's Avatar

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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Thats something I`d like to know as well, as sadly there was
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    Abosulutely NO Interaction between Ivy and Dresden when they met for the first time in years.
    Between the now teenaged Superweapon of Knowledge and one of 2 people she really truly loves.

    Still very disappointed about that.

    A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”


    Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
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    Is that actually canon, or just an assumption people are making?
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    Kincaid being fired?

    Jim released some microfiction leading up to Peace Talks. Scroll down to Microfiction #3

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    GrayDeath's Avatar

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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Fuuugde...

    Should have read them earlier.

    Poor Kincaid.

    That make sme even more furious that
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    Harry and Ivy did not speak a SINGLE DANG WORD ....ugh

    A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”


    Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Mith View Post
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    Kincaid being fired?

    Jim released some microfiction leading up to Peace Talks. Scroll down to Microfiction #3
    TIL about the microfictions.

    Spoiler
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    And for #4, oh man, poor Irwin. That move could not have possibly come at a worse time.
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  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    TBH, I'll still read the Dresden Files, because I love a lot of the side characters. For example the worldbuilding done with River Shoulders or Mab is excellent. However, some of Jim's handling of characters is why I end ep just skimming a lot of what makes the series the Dresden Files specifically.

  18. - Top - End - #78
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    You know what's fun? Rereading anything after Grave Peril and watching for anything that's a "coincidence." and figuring out what the White God's plan was. "Moves in mysterious ways", indeed, but with this much story, you can usually piece together the causality.

  19. - Top - End - #79
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    Fuuugde...

    Should have read them earlier.

    Poor Kincaid.

    That make sme even more furious that
    Spoiler
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    Harry and Ivy did not speak a SINGLE DANG WORD ....ugh

    Spoiler
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    It is not outright said, but the implication is that Ivy is still angry with Harry for trying to kill himself. The Archive may understand it on a rational level. Ivy not so much. And I would be surprised if her being alone will not lead to problems in the future. But I would love it more if they repair the damage and move on. If Molly and Harry can do it ....

    What happened in the microfiction had so much important stuff in it. I mean Ivy saving Harry was just one another thing. "In the chest or face me"
    And I need to reread what role Thorned Namshiel played in her being a prisoner. Would Marcones choice of taking the coin having a potentiel consequence he should have thought about.

  20. - Top - End - #80
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

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    Two thoughts about Harry's upcoming nuptials:
    It has been said repeatedly that wizards are staggeringly effective when they have time to prepare for something, and Harry's got an entire year to prepare for this wedding. I can't imagine what he'll come up with, but I'm certain it will be interesting.
    Also, Harry's almost certainly got the touch of true love thing going on again, thanks to his relationship with Murphy. If the wedding does actually occur, that's going to cause problems.


    And is it really necessary to put everything in spoilers this long after the book's been released?
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  21. - Top - End - #81
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
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    Two thoughts about Harry's upcoming nuptials:
    It has been said repeatedly that wizards are staggeringly effective when they have time to prepare for something, and Harry's got an entire year to prepare for this wedding. I can't imagine what he'll come up with, but I'm certain it will be interesting.
    Also, Harry's almost certainly got the touch of true love thing going on again, thanks to his relationship with Murphy. If the wedding does actually occur, that's going to cause problems.


    And is it really necessary to put everything in spoilers this long after the book's been released?
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    Come to think of it, he may be able to get out of it on the basis of "i cant physically come into contact with her without maiming her. From both a practical and diplomatic standpoint, thats non-ideal."

    Not that i think Mab would hesitate to order him to get it on with a changeling or something to fix that, but if he plays his cards right even the potential for spousal burning would make it a poor political marriage.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
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    Come to think of it, he may be able to get out of it on the basis of "i cant physically come into contact with her without maiming her. From both a practical and diplomatic standpoint, thats non-ideal."

    Not that i think Mab would hesitate to order him to get it on with a changeling or something to fix that, but if he plays his cards right even the potential for spousal burning would make it a poor political marriage.
    Spoiler: White court traditions
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    The solution is a mandatory batchler party that goes all the way. the bride's family is paying for the hookers.

    In practice, though, the white court is the ones who want this alliance. If Harry can keep his **** in his pants, Laura will just have to get through the wedding night without attempting to feed on Harry. And if she cant, her suffering is her own fault, in Mab's eyes. The Knight Mantle would ber perfectly happy consummating the marriage anyway,
    Last edited by Rakaydos; 2020-10-23 at 04:16 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    It just occurred to me that
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    Mab doesn't know about Thomas and Harry being brothers, does she? That could be Harry's way out of the marriage: "I don't have to marry Lara to forge a blood bond with the White Court or House Raith; Thomas Raith is my half-brother, so I already have a blood tie with them, plus Lara is therefore my step-sister, so EWW." But Mab might not believe it, and Harry might not be any more willing to trust her with that knowledge than he is the White Council.

  24. - Top - End - #84
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by dps View Post
    It just occurred to me that
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    Mab doesn't know about Thomas and Harry being brothers, does she? That could be Harry's way out of the marriage: "I don't have to marry Lara to forge a blood bond with the White Court or House Raith; Thomas Raith is my half-brother, so I already have a blood tie with them, plus Lara is therefore my step-sister, so EWW." But Mab might not believe it, and Harry might not be any more willing to trust her with that knowledge than he is the White Council.
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    I'm pretty sure Mab does know, actually. If I recall correctly, she mentions it at some point when talking about how he'd be her choice for Winter Knight if Harry were to die. I can't remember where she mentions it, though. I think it was before Harry became the Winter Knight, but I'm not sure.

    Also, Lara isn't any sort of relation to Harry. They have no parents in common, and Harry was born years after his mother left (escaped from? I'm not sure how consensual their relationship was) Lord Raith.
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  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by dps View Post
    It just occurred to me that
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    Mab doesn't know about Thomas and Harry being brothers, does she? That could be Harry's way out of the marriage: "I don't have to marry Lara to forge a blood bond with the White Court or House Raith; Thomas Raith is my half-brother, so I already have a blood tie with them, plus Lara is therefore my step-sister, so EWW." But Mab might not believe it, and Harry might not be any more willing to trust her with that knowledge than he is the White Council.
    Spoiler
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    Whether or not Mab knows, Harry would be an idiot to speak it aloud. That's not the sort of information you voluntarily reveal to any monster (and let's be clear, most signatories of the accords are monsters of one sort or another) unless you want a target on your half brother's back, you have no idea who around will overhear, and if Mab told anybody about the wedding plans there'd be no way to back down from that without either looking weak or tipping everybody's hand. And as noted Harry and Lara aren't blood relations, so the argument against marriage isn't as strong.

    Both sides will have to make allowances for the fact that this is a political marriage and they're mostly expected to keep up appearances. (Like, there's no way it won't be an open marriage because there's no way Harry is agreeing to keep Lara monogamously fed.) But they'll both play along because the costs of doing otherwise are too crazy high.

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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by dps View Post
    It just occurred to me that
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    Mab doesn't know about Thomas and Harry being brothers, does she? That could be Harry's way out of the marriage: "I don't have to marry Lara to forge a blood bond with the White Court or House Raith; Thomas Raith is my half-brother, so I already have a blood tie with them, plus Lara is therefore my step-sister, so EWW." But Mab might not believe it, and Harry might not be any more willing to trust her with that knowledge than he is the White Council.
    Spoiler
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    That doesn't help her form a political alliance with the White Court. Remember this isn't just Harry Dresden, Wizard marrying Lara, it's also the Winter Knight.

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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by dps View Post
    It just occurred to me that
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    Mab doesn't know about Thomas and Harry being brothers, does she? That could be Harry's way out of the marriage: "I don't have to marry Lara to forge a blood bond with the White Court or House Raith; Thomas Raith is my half-brother, so I already have a blood tie with them, plus Lara is therefore my step-sister, so EWW." But Mab might not believe it, and Harry might not be any more willing to trust her with that knowledge than he is the White Council.


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    She said if Harry would have died Thomas would have been next in line. He is a Vampire, but would be human enough for her.

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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by lowfyr View Post
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    She said if Harry would have died Thomas would have been next in line. He is a Vampire, but would be human enough for her.
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    human enough for Beside to anticipate his selection, too

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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Took me a couple weeks to get my hands on a copy, and another few days before I had time to read it. But since I was laid up at home a couple days ago with foot problems, I powered through Battle Ground in about a day.

    I'm glad to see everything I thought was missing from Peace Talks was indeed here. I think the 400+ pages of action scenes with basically nothing else between them worked a lot better for me in a single sitting than it would if I had been taking it in a chapter at a time over the span of a couple weeks. It'll be interesting to see how I feel about this one on subsequent rereads. It was honestly kind of an exhausting experience - it reminds me of a time in my D&D 3.5 campaign where the party reached the climax of a big story arc - infiltrating the lair of a prominent thieves' guild in a massive maze underneath the city and defeating their leaders and summoned demons - and it ended up with like 2 straight 8-hour or longer sessions of nothing but combat. Very exhausting, but satisfying at the end.

    Also, this and Peace Talks were the first time I experienced the books by print before the audio version, because I don't use Audible and my current library doesn't have the audiobooks like my old one did.

    There were a lot of twists and surprise reveals in this one. Some I saw coming, some I thought were possible but wasn't sure if I believed would happen, others that took me completely by surprise.

    Spoiler
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    Expected:
    -Murphy dying
    -some Wardens dying
    -Harry getting booted from the White Council (you don't introduce a possibility like that this late in the series and then not go through with it)

    Wasn't sure:
    -Justine being taken by Nemesis
    -Murphy becoming an Einherjaren or Valkyrie after death
    -return of Mavra

    Blindsided:
    -Marcone the Denarian
    -all of the Alphas surviving
    -the way Murphy was killed
    -Drakul (let alone that he's Starborn)
    -the betrothal to Lara


    A few other random thoughts:

    A few things felt disconnected from Peace Talks, such as the Thomas plotline being basically sidelined until the very end, and also the way Harry and Ebenezar were basically cordial again despite McCoy pretty much trying to kill him last book.

    Murphy totally got Tara'd, except that the Knights were there to stop Harry from going full Dark Willow. I actually thought this scene was pretty well done, even if I didn't want it to happen.

    No mention of Mister in this book, even at the end when Harry reunites with his family. I don't think there's anything significant to this, just something I noticed.

    Trying to think of which characters we didn't see in these two books. So far the list I've come up with is Kincaid, the Denarians (minus Thorned Namshiel), the Leanansidhe, Rashid, and Mortimer. Who am I missing?
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Work is the scourge of the gaming classes!

  30. - Top - End - #90
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    What was the Merlin doing in the book? I can't really remember if he was there or not - Cristos seemed to occupy the narrative slot of 'head White Council representative'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

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