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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Spoiler: Timelines and Starborn
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    From the timeline posted above:

    4-6 BSF: The most recent version of the Unseelie Accords is signed 10-12 years before Proven Guilty [PG 127]. Thanks to Tepick! I wonder if this coincides with the Unseelie Incursion of 1994?

    If we take that as a rosetta stone for real world/BSF date conversion...

    26 BSF, October 31: Harry is born. This would be 1972-1974.

    Drakul, then would have been born 1306-1308 (which would put the"real world" timeline off by about 85 years)

    640-642 AD has a starborn year
    24-26 BC is also a starborn year.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Spoiler: McCoy Spoiler
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    Got this one from Reddit, but based on the crone description when he uses it, the Blackstaff was loaned from or stolen from Mother Winter.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    That theory's been around awhil, but this is additional support.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

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    I thought it was pretty much stated that Mother Winter's walking stick was the Blackstaff? That's like... canon as far as I'm concerned.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
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    It occurred to me that Drakul identifying himself as a starborn might help nail down the timeline, but according to Wikipedia he was born "before 1395", and thus Harry would be born before 2061, which I'm pretty sure we already knew. This does suggest that Drakul was likely already a blampire before his historical "life", though.
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    Drakul is Draculas Father so we do not know than he was born.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    OK, did a re-read, and I do like the book better second time around. I think I want to read it a 3rd time before commenting in depth, though.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Has anyone drawn up a battle map from this book? That would be awesome.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    I am increasingly of the opinion that Rudolph was one of the children (mentioned in "Zoo Days") who weren't prepared for the attack of the fear creeps, had part of their soul devoured, and are never quite right ever again.
    Alignments are objective. Right and wrong are not.
    Good: Will act to prevent harm to others even at personal cost.
    Evil: Will seek personal benefit even if it causes harm to others.
    Law: General, universal, and consistent trump specific, local, and inconsistent.
    Chaos: Specific, local, and inconsistent trump general, universal, and consistent.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Caledonian View Post
    I am increasingly of the opinion that Rudolph was one of the children (mentioned in "Zoo Days") who weren't prepared for the attack of the fear creeps, had part of their soul devoured, and are never quite right ever again.
    There's been scientific studies that have found a measurable difference in how people prioritize fear as a reaction.

    http://thescienceexplorer.com/humani...emocrat-brains

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    So, plenty of heady plot stuff and all that. Did anyone else catch the hints that Captain Hook might be a tooth fairy? She sure has a thing for chompers.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    I'm not sure how I felt about this one! It felt... a little bit over the top. I mean, I guess that's the point, but it was kind of fatiguing.

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    Murphy's death felt inevitable, another casualty of Harry's Peter Parker Curse. I really don't like Lara and the White Court, they're like the epitome of the worst rapey parts of the books but they're Polite and Pretty so the wizards put up with them... so I'm not thrilled about her getting shipped with Harry.

    Some of the characters, like Ivy, felt like fanservice cameos since they didn't really do much except one flashy appearance. Marcone taking a coin makes some sense in setting, but it's super disappointing since he was the ultimate "nonmagical mortal with enough skill to be relevant anyway" alongside Murphy.

    Justine being possessed was a gut punch but I didn't notice any foreshadowing. Also, did she explain how she actually got Thomas to attack the embassy? It seems like that would be a tough thing to just drop into conversation. "Hey honey, while you're out..."
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  12. - Top - End - #42
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    I'm not sure how I felt about this one! It felt... a little bit over the top. I mean, I guess that's the point, but it was kind of fatiguing.

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    Murphy's death felt inevitable, another casualty of Harry's Peter Parker Curse. I really don't like Lara and the White Court, they're like the epitome of the worst rapey parts of the books but they're Polite and Pretty so the wizards put up with them... so I'm not thrilled about her getting shipped with Harry.

    Some of the characters, like Ivy, felt like fanservice cameos since they didn't really do much except one flashy appearance. Marcone taking a coin makes some sense in setting, but it's super disappointing since he was the ultimate "nonmagical mortal with enough skill to be relevant anyway" alongside Murphy.

    Justine being possessed was a gut punch but I didn't notice any foreshadowing. Also, did she explain how she actually got Thomas to attack the embassy? It seems like that would be a tough thing to just drop into conversation. "Hey honey, while you're out..."
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    She apparently threatened Justine's life and the life of the child, from what I remember of the dialogue.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
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    She apparently threatened Justine's life and the life of the child, from what I remember of the dialogue.
    Huh.

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    That makes sense, I guess, but it's weird that Thomas wouldn't try to warn Harry more directly. I mean, he did try to warn Harry, so if he was being threatened to not get Harry involved he was obviously willing to risk it, but he did it in a really half-assed way.
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    Huh.

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    That makes sense, I guess, but it's weird that Thomas wouldn't try to warn Harry more directly. I mean, he did try to warn Harry, so if he was being threatened to not get Harry involved he was obviously willing to risk it, but he did it in a really half-assed way.
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    "Go do this thing right now or else."

    "Don't I get a chance to prepare?"

    "No, otherwise you'll involve that wizard that keeps foiling our plans."

    "Alright, this is gonna be a big deal so I figure there's a 50/50 shot he'll be involved anyway."
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Finished Battle Grounds. It definitely works better to tie up the threads of Peace Talks.

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    As far as Murphy dying, while her becoming a Valkyrie is a bit odd to me as she's a Catholic, but I am not surprised. I also feel like she shouldn't have died in the middle of the battle. You then have Harry yo-yoing between grief and his regular wisecracks until the end.

    You want Murphy to die? Make her the one consolidating and managing the safeholds while Harry takes on his other work.
    You still have your Jotun slaying scene and everything. After the dust starts settling, have some forces dug in around safeholds to be cleared out, one that contained Rudy. Play the rest of the scene as originally done. She's then the last allied casualty. You don't have this yoyoing, and instead you have "Harry deals with grief" in one smooth arc.

    Granted, the Dresden Files is terrible at having mostly female named characters die (heck and I am pretty sure most unnamed character deaths are women to if we look back at say the Hobbs attack in Small Favor). But that is nothing new.


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    The possession did have some foreshadowing in my opinion (but I figured Justine was tied up in Thomas' actions somehow). What is odd though is that it is He Who Walks Beside that is possessing her. If it was Behind, that would have been a waaay better callback, as that Walker was summoned on Raith estates back in Blood Rites and just grabbed Justine while she was semi comatose at the Manor.
    Last edited by Mith; 2020-10-18 at 11:20 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

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    My best guess is that it's not part of Behind's thing to be subtle. We've seen Behind 'bodily' in Harry's flashback from Ghost Story, and when it possessed someone in White Knight, it was grotesquely noticeable. More likely, each of the Walkers interacts with Reality differently; Walks Before was the blunt-instrument who fought head-on and up-front with raw power/an army, Walks Behind is a stalker/ambusher (no idea how its weird power works against multiple enemies), Walks Beside is an infiltrator/possessor, and might not even have an incarnate form like Behind and Before do.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
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    My best guess is that it's not part of Behind's thing to be subtle. We've seen Behind 'bodily' in Harry's flashback from Ghost Story, and when it possessed someone in White Knight, it was grotesquely noticeable. More likely, each of the Walkers interacts with Reality differently; Walks Before was the blunt-instrument who fought head-on and up-front with raw power/an army, Walks Behind is a stalker/ambusher (no idea how its weird power works against multiple enemies), Walks Beside is an infiltrator/possessor, and might not even have an incarnate form like Behind and Before do.
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    Fair point. It just occured to me that that would have been an excellent callback. Especially if Nemesis is the 3 Walkers as a whole (or all of Outside), and that summoning a Walker gives them a window to sneak in a few others if the ritual fails. Thus Before and Beside came through in Blood Rites, and were up to things.

    I believe there was a joke (that became canon) the Before was riding the corpse of the vampire from White Night, as the pile of rags was his coat. (I believe Jim's commont to the theory was "It is now.")
    Last edited by Mith; 2020-10-18 at 12:05 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Mith View Post
    Spoiler: Justine
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    The possession did have some foreshadowing in my opinion (but I figured Justine was tied up in Thomas' actions somehow). What is odd though is that it is He Who Walks Beside that is possessing her. If it was Behind, that would have been a waaay better callback, as that Walker was summoned on Raith estates back in Blood Rites and just grabbed Justine while she was semi comatose at the Manor.
    Spoiler: Walkers
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    Behind, Before, and Beside are different walkers with different roles in undermining reality.

    He who walks Behind is special forces in the enemy's rear, taking a promising enforcer group under Justin and turning it to his ends. We know he's involved with the entropy curse that killed Maggy LeFey and that the White King was using. But Behind doent take direct action often, relying on others to use rituals and... generally work like the Denarian coins, I guess. He's probably behind the black council, too.

    He who walks Before is a General, leading Outsider armies in battle. He's the one who took direct action against Demonreach, and was the only Walker we have seen in physical form.

    He who walks Beside is a Spy and Sleeper Agent, the enemy you thought was a friend all along. We know he's involved with Justine, but this is the first we've heard the name.

    Other Nemisis instances that arnt explicitly named:
    In white night, there's an army of corrupted trolls backed by an outsider. Army says Before,but I'm leaning toward Behind because they were corrupted fey, fitting his MO as looking for local muscle and powering it up.
    Morgana's Athame->Leia->Maeve: The promice-of-power aspect is totally Behind's MO. Behind isnt as subtle as Beside. Cait Sith might have been Beside, for the unwilling takeover, but was caught too early to be useful. I'm still leaning toward another instance/photocopy of Behind though. If Cait Sith was Behind, the "Assume direct control" aspect is a notable aspect of his abilities... and possibly what leia's "cure" was meant to overcome.

    Did I miss any?

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakaydos View Post
    Did I miss any?
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    We actually do see Behind take something like a physical form. At least, something tore that poor gas station attendant apart.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
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  20. - Top - End - #50
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

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    It was definitely Beside who possessed Cat Sidhe; "Nemesis" was behind the actions of both Cat and Maeve, along with presumably Aurora, and others like Victor Sells, Leonid Kravos, the Hexenwolf FBI agents, etc. Its signature is beings acting against their nature, which in retrospect is a clue pointing towards Justine all along since Nemesis said it infected her shortly after becoming Lara's aide. My guess is that it functions like a hive-mind in lieu of the physical bodies that its siblings could take; spreading like a virus into multiple hosts with the option of Assuming Direct Control if it must.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

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    Personally ive been working under the theory that the Outsiders are a hive mind for a while now. The walkers arent individuals, but simply facets of the overall Outsider personality that it uses to refer to different actions and bodies that it uses.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  22. - Top - End - #52
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Mith View Post
    Finished Battle Grounds. It definitely works better to tie up the threads of Peace Talks.

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    As far as Murphy dying, while her becoming a Valkyrie is a bit odd to me as she's a Catholic, but I am not surprised. I also feel like she shouldn't have died in the middle of the battle. You then have Harry yo-yoing between grief and his regular wisecracks until the end.

    You want Murphy to die? Make her the one consolidating and managing the safeholds while Harry takes on his other work.
    You still have your Jotun slaying scene and everything. After the dust starts settling, have some forces dug in around safeholds to be cleared out, one that contained Rudy. Play the rest of the scene as originally done. She's then the last allied casualty. You don't have this yoyoing, and instead you have "Harry deals with grief" in one smooth arc.

    Granted, the Dresden Files is terrible at having mostly female named characters die (heck and I am pretty sure most unnamed character deaths are women to if we look back at say the Hobbs attack in Small Favor). But that is nothing new.

    Spoiler
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    Murphy dying offscreen and only found in the aftermath kind of ruins the entirety of her arc and keeps her from being a catalyst for Harry nearly going evil. She didn't die in battle - no heroic last stand, no dying for a purpose. She was killed by a petty and worthless corrupt cop who just could not set aside his vendetta against her (implied to be a result of him refusing to accept that the loup-garou was real) and was so incompetent that he shot her by mistake. This is the same cop that's been after her for several books and essentially ruined her life. Ultimately, her death was from HER decisions and HER enemy, even if Harry was wrapped up in it.

    Meanwhile, her death would have had a very different effect on Harry if he hadn't watched her die. He'd have mourned, certainly, but he wouldn't have been thrown into the killing rage that almost took him over the edge. Nor would it have affected him in the battle the way he did, with him agonizing over every death in his army after he raised the banner of the Winter Knight. This would have prevented his epiphany that the real danger to his humanity wasn't the possibility of going over the edge (which he was already wary of), but the slow accumulation of emotional scars from what he must endure in his role (which he'd already been going through before taking up the Mantle and was almost entirely unaware of). I suspect this will have major character development effects going forward.


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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

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    So, I got it, and blitzed through it in one sitting, pretty much... and wow. That was quite the ride. And the body count

    One thing that nobody else has brought up... did Cristos die? He got splatted by Ethniu, but so did McCoy, and he survived. Cristos going out in this battle would have some fairly major plot ramifications. He was the number one suspect for the Black Council mole; if he's dead (and Harry and crew were right about him), then things are falling apart, hard for the Black Council as well as the White Council. The Grey Council and the Paranet may end up being the last of the supernatural folk on the human side of the fence full stop...

    'Sneak attack by Toot' may end up being one of my favourite baddie-disposal methods in the series, as a random aside. Mavra certainly learned a lesson she won't be forgetting in a hurry...

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by TeChameleon View Post
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    So, I got it, and blitzed through it in one sitting, pretty much... and wow. That was quite the ride. And the body count

    One thing that nobody else has brought up... did Cristos die? He got splatted by Ethniu, but so did McCoy, and he survived. Cristos going out in this battle would have some fairly major plot ramifications. He was the number one suspect for the Black Council mole; if he's dead (and Harry and crew were right about him), then things are falling apart, hard for the Black Council as well as the White Council. The Grey Council and the Paranet may end up being the last of the supernatural folk on the human side of the fence full stop...

    'Sneak attack by Toot' may end up being one of my favourite baddie-disposal methods in the series, as a random aside. Mavra certainly learned a lesson she won't be forgetting in a hurry...
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    Actually, I think that I posted that IMO Cristos is dead, because we later see McCoy and Listens-to-Winds getting medical attention, but not him. Also, I don't think that he was Black Council after all; he may have been an unwitting pawn of them, but I don't think he was knowingly working for them

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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    a loose thought.

    If it was the dying curse on Harry that caused Rudolf's behaviour, would MAb's decision endanger Lara?

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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Braininthejar2 View Post
    a loose thought.

    If it was the dying curse on Harry that caused Rudolf's behaviour, would MAb's decision endanger Lara?
    Keep in mind what his dad's ghost told Harry--Snake Boy wasted his curse, 'cause everyone dies alone, but you don't have to be alone until then.

    Rudolph's behavior was caused by Rudolph being an idiot.

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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
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    Murphy dying offscreen and only found in the aftermath kind of ruins the entirety of her arc and keeps her from being a catalyst for Harry nearly going evil. She didn't die in battle - no heroic last stand, no dying for a purpose. She was killed by a petty and worthless corrupt cop who just could not set aside his vendetta against her (implied to be a result of him refusing to accept that the loup-garou was real) and was so incompetent that he shot her by mistake. This is the same cop that's been after her for several books and essentially ruined her life. Ultimately, her death was from HER decisions and HER enemy, even if Harry was wrapped up in it.

    Meanwhile, her death would have had a very different effect on Harry if he hadn't watched her die. He'd have mourned, certainly, but he wouldn't have been thrown into the killing rage that almost took him over the edge. Nor would it have affected him in the battle the way he did, with him agonizing over every death in his army after he raised the banner of the Winter Knight. This would have prevented his epiphany that the real danger to his humanity wasn't the possibility of going over the edge (which he was already wary of), but the slow accumulation of emotional scars from what he must endure in his role (which he'd already been going through before taking up the Mantle and was almost entirely unaware of). I suspect this will have major character development effects going forward.

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    I'm not thinking she dies off screen. Still have her death scene almost as played out. I would just have her die at the end of the book so that you don't have Harry go back to wisecrackinv only to ckme back to it at the end.

    My alternative scene just has her die at the end helping to guard safe houses. So you have her death followed by the wrapping up of the book. My issue isn't tge scene itself, but it's placement.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Murphy thoughts:
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    I don't much like the emphasis on not killing Rudolph. The guy is, by this point, pretty clearly not innocent. It doesn't *seem* as if anything magical caused it, and any explanation that way seems like kind of an unlikely explanation. It sort of feels like the sort of false logic where a hero mows down minions by the dozen, but spares the villain to "prove his humanity" or something stupid.

    When someone who's been your long time adversary advances to straight up killing folks despite your best efforts to talk them down, that's about the time to put a bullet in them, if not before.

    I'm not suprised by Murphy's death, but the whole situaton doesn't feel like it fits quite right.

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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Murphy thoughts:
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    I don't much like the emphasis on not killing Rudolph. The guy is, by this point, pretty clearly not innocent. It doesn't *seem* as if anything magical caused it, and any explanation that way seems like kind of an unlikely explanation. It sort of feels like the sort of false logic where a hero mows down minions by the dozen, but spares the villain to "prove his humanity" or something stupid.

    When someone who's been your long time adversary advances to straight up killing folks despite your best efforts to talk them down, that's about the time to put a bullet in them, if not before.

    I'm not suprised by Murphy's death, but the whole situaton doesn't feel like it fits quite right.
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    Theres a double point being made. The first is that killing Rudolph outright like that is murder. He totally deserves it, but Murphy in particular was a big believer in the rightness of the system, and while he WILL get his comeuppance, it has to come about the right way. The second is that Harry is about to kill somebody with black magic. Thats super badness, as explained just about every time the very concept of a warlock comes up. An extension of this, perhaps, is that Harry bas basically torturing Rudolph to death. Thats not right no matter what he's done, hence the Sword burning him.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Murphy thoughts:
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    I don't much like the emphasis on not killing Rudolph. The guy is, by this point, pretty clearly not innocent. It doesn't *seem* as if anything magical caused it, and any explanation that way seems like kind of an unlikely explanation. It sort of feels like the sort of false logic where a hero mows down minions by the dozen, but spares the villain to "prove his humanity" or something stupid.

    When someone who's been your long time adversary advances to straight up killing folks despite your best efforts to talk them down, that's about the time to put a bullet in them, if not before.

    I'm not suprised by Murphy's death, but the whole situaton doesn't feel like it fits quite right.
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    Killing Rudolph would have been murder. They weren't fighting, Rudy wouldn't have been the slightest threat to Harry at that point, and the purpose was not to defend but to punish. Harry Dresden is not a judge in the mortal world, nor is he an appointed executioner there. He had no more right to execute Rudolph than Rudolph had to kill Murphy. There is a massive difference between killing someone in battle, and killing that same person after they have surrendered - this is shown as a major in-universe concept when Murphy shatters the Sword of Faith by trying to execute Nicodemus with it. The fact that Harry was going to execute him with magic makes it an even bigger deal.

    Of course, Rudolph's a dead man walking. Even if the mortal authorities don't go after him because there's no evidence, Kincaid is still out there. Murphy and Kincaid fell out after Kincaid shot Harry (at Harry's own request), but that won't change much.

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