D&D 5e is not balanced around a 6-8 encounter, 2 SR day.

[Valmark]

I do think that is a reasonable guideline, yes.

In my group irl we did get through 6-8 encounters with two short rests sometimes, and they were indeed through that difficulty range.

We also got through a dungeon with no rests (the first dungeon in Descent into Avernus, Dead Three something) and nearly got TPK'ed by eight kobolds (the start of Hoard of the Dragon Queen should be) then handled all other encounters fairly well, getting one short rest (these were different characters of course).

That section is a guideline- it's not an hard rule, and doesn't pretend to be that. All of the DMG is a giant guideline.

And I don't think anybody would have replied "badly" if that tone in the first post didn't sound like you were delivering some holy scripture, I genuely thought I'd see some giant revelation after the first sentences O.o



On a whole other note, it's funny how the PW thing went on for so long when nearly immediately somebody pointed out how that is well beyond the supposed XP worth of enemies a 5th level party should fight in an encounter. Or maybe only to me.

[MaxWilson]

This gets worse when you apply skills you can use in combat back into out of combat situations. Where, for example, searching a room takes 6 seconds when IRL it takes me 15 minutes just to find my keys.

Heh. In theory putting on my shoes in the morning and walking out the door and fifteen feet to my car should only take 6-10 seconds, but somehow by clock time it always takes 2-3 minutes. I can't even blame this on 5E, because I really am capable of doing this in 10 seconds if pressed! But somehow work expands to fill the amount of time available to do it, especially when you're relaxed.

I apply this same principle to D&D by having offscreen monsters take reasonably-long amounts of time to get themselves organized even after they become aware that PCs are infiltrating their dungeon/lair. If you got spotted while kidnapping a hobgoblin captain from his bunk, it could be ten minutes or more between when the hobgoblin alarm gong goes off and when the hobgoblin counterattack of fifty Hobgoblins and a Devastator arrives. (I.e. if you fast enough you may still catch them in small groups, or see unarmored hobgoblins just getting out of the shower, or catch the Devastator giving a briefing to the hobgoblin sergeants while they quickly plan their counterattack.)

[MinotaurWarrior]

On a whole other note, it's funny how the PW thing went on for so long when nearly immediately somebody pointed out how that is well beyond the supposed XP worth of enemies a 5th level party should fight in an encounter. Or maybe only to me.

That just amplifies the point: 5e isn't balanced around any sort of XP budget.

Famously, on an open field the Terrasque (CR 30) can be easily defeated by a single level 1 pc on a mount with a ranged weapon, such as a halfling ranger, because it lacks ranged attacks and has the same movement as a mastiff.

Almost as famously, you can make an "easy" encounter out of low CR spellcasters in an advantageous situation and likely wreck a level 20 party.

The PvE isn't balanced like how a PvP game (such as mtg limited or LoL) is, where the game system and game elements themselves make it so that you get the desired difficulty and requirements of skill for success.

DnD is set up for PCs to succeed with a cooperative DM, and features like CR aren't there for balance, but for fun. A Terrasque is more fun to fight at high level, because by then you might then have a chance to win using tactics that are less cheesy, such as letting your fighter get up close and swing a sword at it.

[Pex]

Agree. DMs should be more conscious of the time it takes to do other things and let people SR during that. Problem solved.

I agree there, but they don't. Just traveling along the road or forest path where nothing happens ("After a couple of hours you reach town", "Two hours later you find a small lake in a clearing.") should count as a short rest, but DMs won't allow it. They insist the party stay in one place doing nothing for an hour. That's why you get Rope Trick and Leomund's Tiny Hut shenanigans and the warlock argues with the sorcerer for the party to stop and rest. However, the DM has a legitimate counterpoint in that it is hours between encounters/combat almost all the time unless it's a dungeon crawl. That would allow a short rest after every fight which overly boosts short rest dependent characters. Then someone suggests using Gritty Realism rules which means everything needs to be recalculated and you can run into not having the proper long rest per game session ratio causing player frustration from the long rest dependent characters.

What we come back to is the problem is not how long a short rest is, but the mistake of making some classes short rest dependent while others are long rest dependent. Not everyone is having a rest problem, but it is happening often enough to be a problem for a lot of people. 4E's method of having everyone benefit from short rests and long rests was fine. That's not what caused the samey problem. The samey problem was everyone used the same mechanics and the powers were too similar to each other, just changing the color type of the damage in many cases. 5E does it right by giving everyone different mechanics for things and different effects for those things.

A 5E sorcerer would have been happy and willing to short rest with the warlock if keeping his spell slots long rest dependent his sorcery points for metamagic was short rest dependent. Give the cleric and paladin more Channel Divinity uses. Have a barbarian's number of rages be short rest dependent. Give everyone a reason to want to short rest. Alternatively, go pre-4E and have everything be long rest dependent again, no short rests. Going by the popular x3 house rule, Warlocks get 6 spell slots per day. Monks have 3 times their level in Ki. Battle Masters have 12 superiority die uses per day. Players can still have HD healing ported over from 4E.

[MaxWilson]

I agree there, but they don't. Just traveling along the road or forest path where nothing happens ("After a couple of hours you reach town", "Two hours later you find a small lake in a clearing.") should count as a short rest, but DMs won't allow it. They insist the party stay in one place doing nothing for an hour.

Well, they're not wrong that walking doesn't count as a rest. "A short rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds." So maybe that wasn't the best example? Or are you thinking of a scenario where the PCs are riding a coach or a train for an hour instead of walking or riding? (Riding a horse is still quite strenuous, I have read, and my limited experience confirms.)

What we come back to is the problem is not how long a short rest is, but the mistake of making some classes short rest dependent while others are long rest dependent. Not everyone is having a rest problem, but it is happening often enough to be a problem for a lot of people.

Totally agree with this part. Putting the classes on different rest schedules has caused unnecessary friction. They should have just stuck to at will/per-day/per-week stuff, instead of at-will/per-short-rest/per-day.

[KorvinStarmast]

What we come back to is the problem is not how long a short rest is, but the mistake of making some classes short rest dependent while others are long rest dependent. Not everyone is having a rest problem, but it is happening often enough to be a problem for a lot of people.

A 5E sorcerer would have been happy and willing to short rest with the warlock if keeping his spell slots long rest dependent his sorcery points for metamagic was short rest dependent. Give the cleric and paladin more Channel Divinity uses. Have a barbarian's number of rages be short rest dependent. Give everyone a reason to want to short rest.

Yes, it can get kind of clunky.

[cutlery]

Yes, it can get kind of clunky.

I've even heard of groups that never take a short rest. Or: always take a long rest.

Even in groups that know better, it can take some lobbying for the player of a mostly short-rest character to talk them into taking a short rest.

[Dork_Forge]

I agree there, but they don't. Just traveling along the road or forest path where nothing happens ("After a couple of hours you reach town", "Two hours later you find a small lake in a clearing.") should count as a short rest, but DMs won't allow it. They insist the party stay in one place doing nothing for an hour. That's why you get Rope Trick and Leomund's Tiny Hut shenanigans and the warlock argues with the sorcerer for the party to stop and rest. However, the DM has a legitimate counterpoint in that it is hours between encounters/combat almost all the time unless it's a dungeon crawl. That would allow a short rest after every fight which overly boosts short rest dependent characters. Then someone suggests using Gritty Realism rules which means everything needs to be recalculated and you can run into not having the proper long rest per game session ratio causing player frustration from the long rest dependent characters.

What we come back to is the problem is not how long a short rest is, but the mistake of making some classes short rest dependent while others are long rest dependent. Not everyone is having a rest problem, but it is happening often enough to be a problem for a lot of people. 4E's method of having everyone benefit from short rests and long rests was fine. That's not what caused the samey problem. The samey problem was everyone used the same mechanics and the powers were too similar to each other, just changing the color type of the damage in many cases. 5E does it right by giving everyone different mechanics for things and different effects for those things.

A 5E sorcerer would have been happy and willing to short rest with the warlock if keeping his spell slots long rest dependent his sorcery points for metamagic was short rest dependent. Give the cleric and paladin more Channel Divinity uses. Have a barbarian's number of rages be short rest dependent. Give everyone a reason to want to short rest. Alternatively, go pre-4E and have everything be long rest dependent again, no short rests. Going by the popular x3 house rule, Warlocks get 6 spell slots per day. Monks have 3 times their level in Ki. Battle Masters have 12 superiority die uses per day. Players can still have HD healing ported over from 4E.

Max already addressed that walking in no way constitutes a short rest, nor should it. There's nothing restful about hiking with your adventuring pack on, if it was then travel time and rest time would be the same thing.

I completely agree that all classes should get some measure of benefit from a short rest though, it would lead to a much better balanced selection of classes. IMO Arcane Recovery is where Wizards cross north of the balance line, everyone getting more out of short rests might change that.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Max already addressed that walking in no way constitutes a short rest, nor should it. There's nothing restful about hiking with your adventuring pack on, if it was then travel time and rest time would be the same thing.

I completely agree that all classes should get some measure of benefit from a short rest though, it would lead to a much better balanced selection of classes. IMO Arcane Recovery is where Wizards cross north of the balance line, everyone getting more out of short rests might change that.

I was thinking more about "investigating a site/looking for loot/etc" where you're mostly immobile. Or waiting for the rogue to do some scouting ahead while everyone else hangs back. Because overland travelling, in my experience, rarely has enough back-to-back encounters to need short rests.

But my guess (and it's only a guess) is that the devs considered everyone to benefit from SR due to HP depletion (and needing to spend HD). Plus the whole "we're a team, so if the warlock says 'hey guys, I'm running low, can we stop for a bit' they'll do it even if they don't gain anything" mentality. But when out-of-combat healing (cf healing spirit, aura of vitality) is big enough to cover without needing to spend HD, that breaks down. A potential stop-gap solution is for DMs to not focus fire. Spread the damage, so everyone feels like a SR gives them something. As well as build adventure sites that provide opportunities to SR, but not to LR on most days. Not the most elegant solution, but it works. Honestly, I've not had issues with this because the players work together--even if one doesn't need it, that lets them scout|investigate|stand guard|whatever while the others take their SR.

[Edea]

(Tentative PHB-Only Short Rest Analysis)

"Recess!"
=========
Monk (Ki)
Warlock (spells)
Fighter (Action Surge, Second Wind, superiority dice)
Bard (Song of Rest, Font of Inspiration)
Druid (Wild Shape(Moon), Natural Recovery(Land))
Wizard (Arcane Recovery)

"Meh..."
========
Cleric (Channel Divinity)
Paladin (Channel Divinity)

"No, let's keep going."
=================
Barbarian (Relentless Rage, which rarely triggers and is high-tier)
Rogue (Stroke of Luck, which is level friggin' 20)
Sorcerer (Sorcerous Restoration, which is level friggin' 20)
Ranger (I...didn't see any short-rest stuff for this class)

[cutlery]

(Tentative PHB-Only Short Rest Analysis)

"Recess!"
=========
Monk (Ki)
Warlock (spells)
Fighter (Action Surge, Second Wind, superiority dice)
Bard (Song of Rest, Font of Inspiration)
Druid (Wild Shape(Moon), Natural Recovery(Land))
Wizard (Arcane Recovery)

"Meh..."
========
Cleric (Channel Divinity)
Paladin (Channel Divinity)

"No, let's keep going."
=================
Barbarian (Relentless Rage, which rarely triggers and is high-tier)
Rogue (Stroke of Luck, which is level friggin' 20)
Sorcerer (Sorcerous Restoration, which is level friggin' 20)
Ranger (I...didn't see any short-rest stuff for this class)

Arcane recovery is closer to the meh category; depending on how much the DM is squeezing the players for resources. Nice, but at level 5 that's one 3rd level spell (or three 1st level ones) when they usually have a total of 9 to cast, at level 10, one 5th level spell (when they usually have 15 to cast). They've got other spells. If and when their LR resources are really low, sure - it will help.

I'd put Druids in the same boat, depending on how critical wild shape is to their playstyle.

They sure aren't asking for them as often as the Warlock or Fighter. And after they've taken the one, they are in the "keep going" category for the rest of the day.

[MaxWilson]

I was thinking more about "investigating a site/looking for loot/etc" where you're mostly immobile. Or waiting for the rogue to do some scouting ahead while everyone else hangs back. Because overland travelling, in my experience, rarely has enough back-to-back encounters to need short rests.

100% agree on the bolded bit. In fact, as far as I'm concerned, if the Rogue goes scouting for an hour while you wait, you don't even have to tell me as DM you're "taking a short rest." You can just ask if you've been waiting for at least an hour, and if so you can just have your Action Surges/spell slots/etc. back without even telling me you're doing it--I'm not your babysitter, I expect you to manage your own character sheet.

[Valmark]

Arcane recovery is closer to the meh category; depending on how much the DM is squeezing the players for resources. Nice, but at level 5 that's one 3rd level spell (or three 1st level ones) when they usually have a total of 9 to cast, at level 10, one 5th level spell (when they usually have 15 to cast). They've got other spells. If and when their LR resources are really low, sure - it will help.

I'd put Druids in the same boat, depending on how critical wild shape is to their playstyle.

They sure aren't asking for them as often as the Warlock or Fighter. And after they've taken the one, they are in the "keep going" category for the rest of the day.

To be fair, until level 13 Arcane Recovery can regenerate the best slot the wizard has access to. That is a detail that makes AE pretty good, even afterwards honestly.

[KorvinStarmast]

I've even heard of groups that never take a short rest. Or: always take a long rest.

Even in groups that know better, it can take some lobbying for the player of a mostly short-rest character to talk them into taking a short rest.

Like my cleric in our first 5e game that started in 2014. It took our group months to finally get a consensus on short rests, and the DM didn't like them much anyway.

"Meh..."
========
Cleric (Channel Divinity)
Paladin (Channel Divinity)

Nope. not Meh. Learned that the hard way. (See above)
Channel Divinity matters.
1. Turn undead.
2. Various domain features (check out what life cleric has for Channel Divinity ...)

[Valmark]

Nope. not Meh. Learned that the hard way. (See above)
Channel Divinity matters.
1. Turn undead.
2. Various domain features (check out what life cleric has for Channel Divinity ...)

Eh... Kinda dependant on campaigns. Currently playing a life cleric and I never needed CD more then twice in a day.

Then an undead-centric campaign comes around and suddenly Turn Undead is the best feature ever, until you see the group easily doing without (though that one time the boss got Turned was awesome).

[Asisreo1]

I've even heard of groups that never take a short rest. Or: always take a long rest.

Even in groups that know better, it can take some lobbying for the player of a mostly short-rest character to talk them into taking a short rest.

Is health never a concern in these groups? Many of the characters that say they don't need long rests are usually because they weren't ever targetted to begin with.

Your HD gives you nearly twice your health back overall and one-and-a-half per long rest after. This is a significant amount of health that all groups that are being challenged will actually need.

Rogues, Barbarians, Sorcerers, and Rangers have great uses for their health. Barbarians become extra meaty. A 5th-level Barbarian has 55 maximum HP but an additional 50 HP in reserve. Able to withstand over 100 HP worth of damage at level 5 yet it would be extremely wasteful not to use it in an actually challenging situation.

Rogues and Sorcerers have a similar but somewhat distinct situation. They have only d8's and d6's as HD. Where the Barb has 55 HP, the Rogue has 38 or 43. The sorcerer has roughly 37. A CR 5 creature, gladiator, can do 33 melee damage or 26 ranged damage on a primarily melee focused character. Even accounting for higher AC, a single hit from a creature like this could do about a third of a weaker member's HP. Even with rogue's half damage, they're still likely to take a good chunk of damage within 2 encounters. It's not like enemies don't often have a ranged option in their arsenal.

[Dork_Forge]

I was thinking more about "investigating a site/looking for loot/etc" where you're mostly immobile. Or waiting for the rogue to do some scouting ahead while everyone else hangs back. Because overland travelling, in my experience, rarely has enough back-to-back encounters to need short rests.

But my guess (and it's only a guess) is that the devs considered everyone to benefit from SR due to HP depletion (and needing to spend HD). Plus the whole "we're a team, so if the warlock says 'hey guys, I'm running low, can we stop for a bit' they'll do it even if they don't gain anything" mentality. But when out-of-combat healing (cf healing spirit, aura of vitality) is big enough to cover without needing to spend HD, that breaks down. A potential stop-gap solution is for DMs to not focus fire. Spread the damage, so everyone feels like a SR gives them something. As well as build adventure sites that provide opportunities to SR, but not to LR on most days. Not the most elegant solution, but it works. Honestly, I've not had issues with this because the players work together--even if one doesn't need it, that lets them scout|investigate|stand guard|whatever while the others take their SR.

If the party is stationary whilst the Rogue scouts then I'd have no issue with it (personally I've never been in a party or DM'd one where one or two characters scouted ahead alone for anywhere near that period of time). Investigating an area or looking for loot doesn't seem like rest to me though, personal preferences.

[PhoenixPhyre]

If the party is stationary whilst the Rogue scouts then I'd have no issue with it (personally I've never been in a party or DM'd one where one or two characters scouted ahead alone for anywhere near that period of time). Investigating an area or looking for loot doesn't seem like rest to me though, personal preferences.

But while everyone else (that doesn't need a SR) is investigating or looking for loot, the warlock can do his thing. If the table expectation is that doing a thorough search of an area takes ~1 hour unless you say you're time-constrained, then it becomes part of the default flow. Clear out a floor/discrete area of the adventure site; those that took damage or need to recharge take a SR while everyone else stands guard or searches carefully. And you can do things like pass any discovered books, papers, etc back to someone who's taking a SR--reading is explicitly allowed. And I'd allow someone to investigate, say, a fresco or runes on a doorway as part of a short rest.

The trick is to readjust expectations around time. If "searching a room" or "decyphering the runes" or "scouting ahead" isn't thought of as something that takes single-digit minutes, then things like rituals and SR become way more attainable. And you push back against the whole 5-minute day thing--doing anything worth doing is going to take hours. Which makes sense--I've now spent an hour today just making little changes to a configuration, rebuilding the container and testing.

[cutlery]

To be fair, until level 13 Arcane Recovery can regenerate the best slot the wizard has access to. That is a detail that makes AE pretty good, even afterwards honestly.

(1) once per day, and (2) if they've cast it.

If I can get back 5 levels of spells and I've cast 2 2nd level spells and 1 1st level spell, I'm probably not super excited about a short rest. I might use it if we take one, but I'll probably feel okay to carry on, especially if I've not used my higher level slots yet.

Unlike, say, a warlock, who has no choice but to spend a short rest slot if they spend a slot at all (5th and below).

Is health never a concern in these groups? Many of the characters that say they don't need long rests are usually because they weren't ever targetted to begin with.

Health restoration out of combat is never a concern with a one encounter per long rest adventuring day.

[MaxWilson]

To be fair, until level 13 Arcane Recovery can regenerate the best slot the wizard has access to. That is a detail that makes AE pretty good, even afterwards honestly.

13th level? Why not 11th level? At 11th level wizards have 6th level slots, but Arcane Recovery can only give you 5th level slots.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Health restoration out of combat is never a concern with a one encounter per long rest adventuring day.

Which is why that (1 encounter/long rest)'s the pathological case if you're doing it as a steady diet. Occasionally in the context of generally longer days? No problem. But if it's a steady diet, then short rests just don't mean anything. Neither do hit dice. Which means you need to reframe the entire system. Not just tripling (or so) short rest resources, but giving much larger health pools (roughly 1.5x if it's a sustained thing).

[Pex]

Well, they're not wrong that walking doesn't count as a rest. "A short rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds." So maybe that wasn't the best example? Or are you thinking of a scenario where the PCs are riding a coach or a train for an hour instead of walking or riding? (Riding a horse is still quite strenuous, I have read, and my limited experience confirms.)



Totally agree with this part. Putting the classes on different rest schedules has caused unnecessary friction. They should have just stuck to at will/per-day/per-week stuff, instead of at-will/per-short-rest/per-day.

There's the rub. How strenuous is walking or riding a horse when nothing happens? You may be right doing so prevents a short rest officially, but I keep witnessing players ask if that counts as a short rest especially when it's way more than two hours later. Even accepting walking/riding prevents rest, since nothing happened in those 2, 3, 4, 5, hours the party couldn't have stopped, not moving, and get the rest anyway? DMs are refusing even that.

[Valmark]

13th level? Why not 11th level? At 11th level wizards have 6th level slots, but Arcane Recovery can only give you 5th level slots.

My PHB and online sources say 6th though?

(1) once per day, and (2) if they've cast it.

If I can get back 5 levels of spells and I've cast 2 2nd level spells and 1 1st level spell, I'm probably not super excited about a short rest. I might use it if we take one, but I'll probably feel okay to carry on, especially if I've not used my higher level slots yet.

Unlike, say, a warlock, who has no choice but to spend a short rest slot if they spend a slot at all (5th and below).

By then you are casting 5th level spells- if you consumed those slots you don't need a short rest in the first place.

Don't get me wrong- I'm not saying wizards are dependant on short rests, just that AR is far from being meh.
Also yeah, if it was more then once a day it'd be broken. A warlock would be crying in a corner too.

[cutlery]

My PHB and online sources say 6th though?


By then you are casting 5th level spells- if you consumed those slots you don't need a short rest in the first place.

Don't get me wrong- I'm not saying wizards are dependant on short rests, just that AR is far from being meh.

One more 5th level spell is meh by that definition - the Wizard isn't likely to be clamoring for one as soon as the warlock, and they sure as hell don't give a crap after they've already used AR.

Which is why that (1 encounter/long rest)'s the pathological case if you're doing it as a steady diet. Occasionally in the context of generally longer days? No problem. But if it's a steady diet, then short rests just don't mean anything.

No arguments here - but I suspect the one encounter per long rest table is far more common than the 6-8 encounter per long rest table.

I'd add to that that it is a balance problem that should have come out in playtesting.

[PhoenixPhyre]

No arguments here - but I suspect the one encounter per long rest table is far more common than the 6-8 encounter per long rest table.

I'd add to that that it is a balance problem that should have come out in playtesting.

Honestly, 1 encounter per long rest goes against the entire design of the game. It's a "don't do this" case, because otherwise you have to rewrite everything. And systems that handle 1 encounter per long rest as a default gracefully don't usually also handle N encounters/long rest. The 5-minute working day was a huge issue in 3e as well, which didn't have the LR/SR distinction. And 4e was designed around more than one encounter per day--otherwise the "daily/encounter" distinction (and healing surges to a degree) break down.

And you can do 1 encounter per LR as long as it's not the default. Balance is over the whole campaign (or arc), not over individual days.

[Asisreo1]

My PHB and online sources say 6th though?

It's telling you which slots cannot be made: 6th and above. I agree that's its a very strange way to explain the power, especially in the context of other powers of a similar nature.

No arguments here - but I suspect the one encounter per long rest table is far more common than the 6-8 encounter per long rest table.

I'd add to that that it is a balance problem that should have come out in playtesting.

I had caught myself into a stupor trying to demystify the arguments you've been making throughout the thread. Specifically, I've wondered how a "5-minute workday" could benefit anyone more than the short-rest loving classes.

I think I've deciphered the disconnect between our group and whichever others you seem to be referencing: The DM's don't properly track time. A day lasts for the full 24-hours and a long rest isn't available until then.



Let me first explain a one-encounter travel day: I'm in agreement that walking doesn't constitute a short rest. However, a party can only walk for 8 hours unless they risk a forced march or are high enough level to cast a big enough spell like teleport. Then, a party must spend 8 hours resting. If a single encounter takes less than an hour (basically always), the party has a whole 8 hours of downtime. That's alot of time for a warlock to benefit from consecutive short rests. The party isn't going anywhere. If they did, they'd be exhausted.

Anyways, a warlock gets 8 whole hours of short resting into spellcasting. Even if the DM takes away from the last hour, that's still 7 short rests that the warlock can just take. That's 14 fly's, 14 invisibility, 14 charm persons, 14 Major Images. These don't include the short rest patron spells and features like Plant Growth, Command, Detect Thoughts, Clairvoyance, Sending, Fey Presence, Dark One's Own Luck.

There's no way to prevent this, it's within the design of the game. If you throw another encounter to interrupt, congrats, it's no longer a 1-encounter day and those that went NOVA the first time are now feeling the heat. They can't walk a significant distance anymore. They just have to wait and do things like craft, cast spells, and other downtime activities.

[cutlery]

Honestly, 1 encounter per long rest goes against the entire design of the game.

But it fits neatly with how people play it - at this point they should just relent and design with that in mind.

[PhoenixPhyre]

But it fits neatly with how people play it - at this point they should just relent and design with that in mind.

That would mean redesigning the entire system from the ground up. CR, all abilities, HP, HD, etc. That's not a fix, that's a new edition.

And I disagree that "one encounter days" are the default. The published adventures I've read don't do that at all (unless you manage to pull a whole day's worth of encounters into one like I did once...oops). Nothing in the system tells you that that's an option. In fact, everything in the system tells you the opposite, that one encounter days should be a rarity. From the adventuring day section to the design of the classes. Everything. So in fact, those who insist on using a pitchfork as a shovel shouldn't get some abomination of a pitchfork-shovel, they should be told to use the tool as designed or use a different tool.

And the pathology only happens when
* a majority of days are single-encounter (with this set as an expectation)
* very few, if any, have anything else
* DM doesn't enforce the other time requirements (like 8 hours of marching and long rests every 24 hours, not less).

[cutlery]

That would mean redesigning the entire system from the ground up. CR, all abilities, HP, HD, etc. That's not a fix, that's a new edition.

And I disagree that "one encounter days" are the default.

I'm not arguing it is the default - but how a lot of people play it. How the game gets played differs from how it is designed - this was the ultimate failure of 4e, after all.

If they're going to have SR and LR powers, nearly all class should have a smattering of both, across the level range (and these should be meaningful). Classes that have only one or the other should be a rare exception.

With how generally easy it is regain hitpoints, those don't qualify for a LR resource anymore.

Add to that how tedious combat can be and one big fight per LR isn't all that surprising. The scads and scads of threads about the five minute adventuring day ought to be a strong indicator that it isn't rare.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'm not arguing it is the default - but how a lot of people play it. How the game gets played differs from how it is designed - this was the ultimate failure of 4e, after all.

If they're going to have SR and LR powers, nearly all class should have a smattering of both, across the level range (and these should be meaningful). Classes that have only one or the other should be a rare exception.

With how generally easy it is regain hitpoints, those don't qualify for a LR resource anymore.

Add to that how tedious combat can be and one big fight per LR isn't all that surprising. The scads and scads of threads about the five minute adventuring day ought to be a strong indicator that it isn't rare.

I don't support making wholesale changes to appease people who refuse to read the books. Because that's what is required to pull the 5-minute-working-day and suggest that it's anywhere near a supported option. Just like the appropriate support response to someone hammering in nails with their iPhone is "sorry, not a supported use", people have to be responsible for their own breakage when they use things way outside of specs.

Should they be even clearer that you're expected to have more than one fight per adventuring day much of the time? Sure. But when people don't read what's there already (as evidenced by all the "asking a question that's literally written in the text" threads)...