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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default List of tweaks I would make

    This is a list of changes I would make. They're mostly small ones. I'll add more as I think of them. Let me know if any of them are too bonkers!

    I'm editing this list as I go along.

    RACES
    • Dragonborn have Darkvision.
    • Dragonborn breath weapon DC can be based on Con, Cha, or Str - your choice at creation.
    • Dragonborn breath weapon is a bonus action.


    FEATS
    • Tough includes the second benefit from Durable, which is itself removed.
    • Elven Accuracy instead allows you to retain Inspiration after spending it, once/rest.
    • Savage Attacker instead always has you roll an extra weapon damage die, drop lowest.
    • Shield Master also gives you proficiency in using shields as an improvised weapon.
    • Skilled adds +1 to any ability score.
    • Weapon Master instead allows you to draw and sheathe weapons as a free action, and gives you proficiency in throwing melee weapons without the Thrown tag, which deal their normal damage instead of 1d4.
    • Keen Mind includes the languages and ciphers from Linguist, which is itself removed.
    • Charger no longer requires you to Dash as an action nor move >10 feet specifically. Instead, whenever you move at least half your speed toward an enemy in a straight line and then take the Attack action against that enemy, you can add +5 damage to the first attack that hits and you can also replace one of the attacks with a Shove with Advantage on your roll. (Obviously if you only have one attack then you can only get one of these.) You can use no more of your Movement on your turn after doing this.


    COMBAT
    • Donning or doffing a shield is an object interaction.
    • You can fire a light or heavy crossbow one handed if it is loaded. You have Disadvantage and can only fire out to short range.
    • Shields count as weapons for the purposes of two-weapon fighting (you'll still need proficiency from somewhere).
    • Throwables and splash weapons from the PHB that are normally thrown as an Action can instead be thrown as any attack. They have the Finesse and Light weapon tags.



    Some notes on implications
    The changes to shields, Weapon Master, and splash weapons makes using splash weapons much easier, which I think is positive as I've never seen them used: they're too expensive for 1st level and not good enough past that. As well, together, they should hopefully give some slightly more dynamic combats for weapon-users.
    Last edited by Mr Adventurer; 2020-10-03 at 09:01 AM.

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    Default Re: List of tweaks I would make

    Mostly seems fine so far! The dragonborn changes might be a bit much altogether, but some testing will reveal if it's an actual problem.

    The two that really stick out to me though:
    The elven accuracy nerf is fairly big, makes it not really worth using. Anyone would be considerably better off by just grabbing Lucky.
    Making donning/doffing a shield an object interaction means that you can two hand a longsword, hit somebody, then equip your shield, giving you both the damage boost and the extra AC.

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    Default Re: List of tweaks I would make

    Quote Originally Posted by IsaacsAlterEgo View Post
    Mostly seems fine so far! The dragonborn changes might be a bit much altogether, but some testing will reveal if it's an actual problem.

    The two that really stick out to me though:
    The elven accuracy nerf is fairly big, makes it not really worth using. Anyone would be considerably better off by just grabbing Lucky.
    Making donning/doffing a shield an object interaction means that you can two hand a longsword, hit somebody, then equip your shield, giving you both the damage boost and the extra AC.
    Thanks!

    I think EA is still competitive with Lucky this way. Lucky only recharges on a long rest, this on a short rest; and EA still gives the stat bonus. But this isn't playtested.

    Re: shields, That's true, but, on your second turn you then have to either stick with sword and shield, or, spend your object interaction putting the shield away, which means you can't do the trick again that round. If it gets silly, refer to the social contract.
    Last edited by Mr Adventurer; 2020-09-30 at 03:32 AM.

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    Default Re: List of tweaks I would make

    I'd suggest keeping an eye on the breath weapon DC attribute changes. Already 5e's attributes are pretty poorly balanced and being able to switch over to CHA (for warlocks and sorcerers) or STR specifically let's the player potentially abuse these attributes and enforce the idea of dumb stats, plus the attribute bonus from the race already gives them a head start. Also the bonus action might make some fierce combos:

    Imagine a level 2 Warlock who can throw down eldritch blast for 5-16 damage (assuming +4 CHA mod and Agonizing Blast), then unleash a gout of orange flame dealing 2-12 damage in the same turn. Gnarly AF, but up to 28 damage on a level 2 BBEG could almost end that fellow in one turn.


    As for the feats, I think you nailed it with Tough and Keen Mind, those need some beefing up. As for Weapon Master, being able to hum a war hammer into the skull of a giant sounds epic but not sure if Weapon Master is the right place for it, maybe a new feat: Strong Arm. You are certainly right that weapon master needs some help, right now its only use is to let less martial classes gain a martial edge, which why would a wizard be a weapon master and a fighter just a fighter? Thematically it seems a bit counter intuitive. Maybe instead replace its ability with Gain +1 to STR or DEX, select one weapon and roll +1d4 to all attack rolls made with this weapon.

    Lastly, I like the idea of including a shield in two weapon fighting. Those guys are more of a defensive weapon than a piece of armor so its nice to see them used in that way.

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    Default Re: List of tweaks I would make

    Thanks for some great feedback!

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDumbYak View Post
    I'd suggest keeping an eye on the breath weapon DC attribute changes. Already 5e's attributes are pretty poorly balanced and being able to switch over to CHA (for warlocks and sorcerers) or STR specifically let's the player potentially abuse these attributes and enforce the idea of dumb stats, plus the attribute bonus from the race already gives them a head start. Also the bonus action might make some fierce combos:

    Imagine a level 2 Warlock who can throw down eldritch blast for 5-16 damage (assuming +4 CHA mod and Agonizing Blast), then unleash a gout of orange flame dealing 2-12 damage in the same turn. Gnarly AF, but up to 28 damage on a level 2 BBEG could almost end that fellow in one turn.
    Hmm, I see where you are coming from but:

    I actually want to make the dragon breath something that can complement your attack routine - as it stands it is a weak attack that you will almost never use in practice and even less at higher levels - Con is never at attack score so tends to stay static, plus it never levels up so the action economy just becomes less and less favourable. It should be something you want to do.

    At level 1 to 4 I can see it's a strong addition, but the specific example you've used demonstrates how strong Agonising Blast is, I think, rather than anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDumbYak View Post
    As for the feats, I think you nailed it with Tough and Keen Mind, those need some beefing up. As for Weapon Master, being able to hum a war hammer into the skull of a giant sounds epic but not sure if Weapon Master is the right place for it, maybe a new feat: Strong Arm. You are certainly right that weapon master needs some help, right now its only use is to let less martial classes gain a martial edge, which why would a wizard be a weapon master and a fighter just a fighter? Thematically it seems a bit counter intuitive. Maybe instead replace its ability with Gain +1 to STR or DEX, select one weapon and roll +1d4 to all attack rolls made with this weapon.
    Basically Weapon Master needs beefing up, and that's what I came up with - it's not that I'm looking to put better melee throwing in, specifically. I don't want an extra feat for it.

    However, it's fascinating you suggest an always-on attack bonus. This is something I would never consider for 5e.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDumbYak View Post
    Lastly, I like the idea of including a shield in two weapon fighting. Those guys are more of a defensive weapon than a piece of armor so its nice to see them used in that way.
    Yeah, I had a thread a while back about how to do this under 5e current rules - I suggested combo-ing Tavern Brawler (for proficiency in attacking with a shield which is an improvised weapon) with Two Weapon Wielder (for full-sized weapon dual wielding), but that's a hell of a feats investment and still required the DM to agree the shield counts as a "weapon" for the purpose of TWW since it's still improvised. So this makes it easier.

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    Default Re: List of tweaks I would make

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    Thanks for some great feedback!

    I actually want to make the dragon breath something that can complement your attack routine - as it stands it is a weak attack that you will almost never use in practice and even less at higher levels - Con is never at attack score so tends to stay static, plus it never levels up so the action economy just becomes less and less favourable. It should be something you want to do.

    At level 1 to 4 I can see it's a strong addition, but the specific example you've used demonstrates how strong Agonising Blast is, I think, rather than anything else.

    Good point, I think I got stuck on best case scenario when in practice you're certainly right, CON rarely gets any love and you can either leverage other stats that do get attention or try to repair the underlaying doom-spaghetti that is 5e's attributes.


    Yeah, I had a thread a while back about how to do this under 5e current rules - I suggested combo-ing Tavern Brawler (for proficiency in attacking with a shield which is an improvised weapon) with Two Weapon Wielder (for full-sized weapon dual wielding), but that's a hell of a feats investment and still required the DM to agree the shield counts as a "weapon" for the purpose of TWW since it's still improvised. So this makes it easier.
    Agreed!

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    Default Re: List of tweaks I would make

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    Dragonborn ...
    Yes to all except no to this.
    Dragonborn breath weapon DC can be based on Con, Cha, or Str - your choice at creation.
    Leave it at Con, this is fine as is.

    As to the rest:
    Tough includes the second benefit from Durable, which is itself removed.
    Sure
    Elven Accuracy instead allows you to retain Inspiration after spending it, once/rest.
    Get Rid of it. (I am not a fan at all of racial feats. I prefer all feats be accessible by all races in the game. Personal taste.)
    Savage Attacker instead always has you roll an extra weapon damage die, drop lowest.
    I think that breaks bounded accuracy a bit, but maybe? Roll for advantage on a damage roll ... kind of like GWF but different ... I mean, it is a feat ... might be a good idea.
    Shield Master also gives you proficiency in using shields as an improvised weapon.
    Agree!
    Skilled adds +1 to any ability score
    Instead: combine Prodigy and skilled and get rid of prodigy, thuswise:
    You get three new skills, or, two new skills and expertise in one of your proficient skills (to include one of the new ones). (See above, racial feats annoy me on their basis, it's a personal taste thing)
    Weapon Master instead allows you to draw and sheathe weapons as a free action, and gives you proficiency in throwing melee weapons without the Thrown tag, which deal their normal damage instead of 1d4. Leave it alone, or just get rid of it.
    Keen Mind includes the languages and ciphers from Linguist, which is itself removed.
    Hmm, this might be the better idea.

    COMBAT
    Donning or doffing a shield is an object interaction.
    Maybe, but I'd rather not see this.
    You can fire a light or heavy crossbow one handed if it is loaded. You have Disadvantage and can only fire out to short range.
    Too fiddly, but I get the cinematic/verisimilitude goal that you have.
    Shields count as weapons for the purposes of two-weapon fighting (you'll still need proficiency from somewhere).
    No, go back to your shield master idea, and / or limit this to
    Barbarians, Rangers, Paladins, Fighters only.
    All in all, this one's a throwaway.
    Throwables and splash weapons from the PHB that are normally thrown as an Action can instead be thrown as any attack. They have the Finesse and Light weapon tags.
    Hmm, maybe.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-09-30 at 10:23 AM.
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    Default Re: List of tweaks I would make

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Yes to all except no to this.
    Dragonborn breath weapon DC can be based on Con, Cha, or Str - your choice at creation.
    Leave it at Con, this is fine as is.
    Hmm. I recognise there's a package there of improvements and perhaps not all of them are needed. Why not allow change from Con?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Savage Attacker instead always has you roll an extra weapon damage die, drop lowest.
    I think that breaks bounded accuracy a bit, but maybe? Roll for advantage on a damage roll ... kind of like GWF but different ... I mean, it is a feat ... might be a good idea.
    I don't see how it breaks bounded accuracy since for one it's on damage, not accuracy, and for two it doesn't actually change the bounds: you can't hit a higher damage amount on an attack with this feat?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Skilled adds +1 to any ability score
    Instead: combine Prodigy and skilled and get rid of prodigy, thuswise:
    You get three new skills, or, two new skills and expertise in one of your proficient skills (to include one of the new ones). (See above, racial feats annoy me on their basis, it's a personal taste thing)
    Interesting. But this doesn't look like combining - it looks like just making the choice of Skilled or Prodigy a choice within the feat instead. I think Skilled as it is needs a boost.

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Donning or doffing a shield is an object interaction.
    Maybe, but I'd rather not see this.
    Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    You can fire a light or heavy crossbow one handed if it is loaded. You have Disadvantage and can only fire out to short range.
    Too fiddly, but I get the cinematic/verisimilitude goal that you have.
    It's the least fiddly I could make it and still be happy with it. Is there a simpler way?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Shields count as weapons for the purposes of two-weapon fighting (you'll still need proficiency from somewhere).
    No, go back to your shield master idea, and / or limit this to
    Barbarians, Rangers, Paladins, Fighters only.
    All in all, this one's a throwaway.
    Why's that?

    Why would you put those class limitations in place?

    For clarity, this amendment is supposed to exist alongside the amendment to Shield Mastery.

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Throwables and splash weapons from the PHB that are normally thrown as an Action can instead be thrown as any attack. They have the Finesse and Light weapon tags.
    Hmm, maybe.
    What do you see are the pros and cons?

    Thank you for your other comments too.

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    Default Re: List of tweaks I would make

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    Hmm. I recognise there's a package there of improvements and perhaps not all of them are needed. Why not allow change from Con?
    I don't care for "solution in search of an answer" deals. As written, the player needs to make a decision at level up. That's a good thing. You look at the basic rules and all DCs are tied to one stat. It's only after fiddling about that they tried to get cute, and break the fundamental framework. My distaste for Elven accuracy feat cannot be overstated. It's everything wrong with this kind of departure from the core framework.
    I don't see how it breaks bounded accuracy since for one it's on damage, not accuracy, and for two it doesn't actually change the bounds: you can't hit a higher damage amount on an attack with this feat?
    Run the numbers on this thought: two handed sword, roll three d6 drop lowest die. What's your average damage?
    I think Skilled as it is needs a boost.
    And I offered exactly that. Get rid of prodigy, racial feats were a crappy idea. This isn't the first time I've suggested that fusion.
    Why not?
    Because +2 AC matters, that's why not. Making choices is what players have to do. (It's also a bit of verisimilitude at work, albeit a minor bit).
    It's the least fiddly I could make it and still be happy with it. Is there a simpler way?
    Yes, which is don't try to make more fiddly a game that tried hard to reduce fiddly bits, with mixed success.
    Why's that?
    It seem to me to be a case of trying hard to fix what isn't actually broken
    Why would you put those class limitations in place?
    They are martial characters, that's why.
    What do you see are the pros and cons?
    Since you do not seem to have play tested this, there's a con right there. I remain unsure, and do not have a group to play test this with any time soon.
    Thank you for your other comments too.
    Thank you for some good ideas.

    Most of the Dragonborn ideas have come up over the years and generally been well received since Dragonborn seem to have been somewhat short changed since the PHB came out.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-09-30 at 10:34 PM.
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    Default Re: List of tweaks I would make

    Saying "You can dual wield with a shield, as long as you are one of the following classes" is...very fiddly, and kind of arbitrarily not including some subclasses that add martial capability to non-martial classes. I would recommend making it available to anyone, or with a feat, but not restricting it on a class-by-class basis, things generally don't work like that in 5e except for magic items.

    I really like the idea of making throwables/splash weapons into an attack. Generally it's rogues using them anyways, but now a fighter might actually be tempted on occasion, especially against a foe with a particular elemental weakness. Also, you might already know this, and I apologize if so, but it seems like this is something that is relatively unknown because of the strange way the rules for throwables are written, but you do actually add your modifier to the damage roll, even alchemist fire. But this does mean that since you've made them finesse weapons, a rogue could potentially have a 2d6+dex ranged weapon to sneak attack with via acid vials... Not game breaking by any stretch, especially since it will cost 25gp a pop, but something to be aware of if the party comes into some very fabulous wealth.

    And about your crossbow rule: Maybe specifically allow hand crossbows to be fired without disadvantage, since they are meant to be used one-handed? You would still only be able to do this for one turn, since you couldn't reload, unless a character carried a brace of loaded hand crossbows... Which is actually pretty interesting, come to think of it. They'd have to take dual-wielder to draw two every round, so I can't really see it being overpowered.

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    Default Re: List of tweaks I would make

    I don't like the Weapon Master change. Yes, the feat sucks, but this looks more like a new feat. Furthermore, it needs refining, it's silly to have someone throwing several Mauls (or even several Rapiers), not to mention several Pikes, in 6 seconds.

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    Default Re: List of tweaks I would make

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    I don't care for "solution in search of an answer" deals. As written, the player needs to make a decision at level up. That's a good thing. You look at the basic rules and all DCs are tied to one stat. It's only after fiddling about that they tried to get cute, and break the fundamental framework. My distaste for Elven accuracy feat cannot be overstated. It's everything wrong with this kind of departure from the core framework.
    Run the numbers on this thought: two handed sword, roll three d6 drop lowest die. What's your average damage?
    Well I think we disagree about a couple of things: that the Dragonborn breath weapon is a cool and effective race feature, and, whether average damage has anything to do with bounded accuracy. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    And I offered exactly that. Get rid of prodigy, racial feats were a crappy idea. This isn't the first time I've suggested that fusion.
    Because +2 AC matters, that's why not. Making choices is what players have to do. (It's also a bit of verisimilitude at work, albeit a minor bit).
    Yes, which is don't try to make more fiddly a game that tried hard to reduce fiddly bits, with mixed success.
    Sure, but your suggestion isn't mechanically different from a game that simply removes the racial prerequisite for the Prodigy feat. It doesn't improve the abilities the Skilled feat as it's in the PHB gives you at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    It seem to me to be a case of trying hard to fix what isn't actually broken
    Ah - I never said I was exclusively trying to fix broken things. :) These are a mix of things that I think do that and other things that I think are cool. (That doesn't mean they shouldn't be criticised though.)

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    They are martial characters, that's why.
    I don't see why that should be important. For one, all characters are martial to some extent (a level 1 wizard without magic can feasibly duel a lone kobold in a knife fight and win, he can drop down a 10' deep pit and survive, his proficiency with crossbows and slings is no worse than that of a fighter [who didn't specialise in them], etc.). For another - all these feats are available to all classes anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Since you do not seem to have play tested this, there's a con right there. I remain unsure, and do not have a group to play test this with any time soon.
    Sure. But you have to decide what changes to try and implement before you test them. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by IsaacsAlterEgo View Post
    I really like the idea of making throwables/splash weapons into an attack. Generally it's rogues using them anyways, but now a fighter might actually be tempted on occasion, especially against a foe with a particular elemental weakness. Also, you might already know this, and I apologize if so, but it seems like this is something that is relatively unknown because of the strange way the rules for throwables are written, but you do actually add your modifier to the damage roll, even alchemist fire. But this does mean that since you've made them finesse weapons, a rogue could potentially have a 2d6+dex ranged weapon to sneak attack with via acid vials... Not game breaking by any stretch, especially since it will cost 25gp a pop, but something to be aware of if the party comes into some very fabulous wealth.
    Ah, yes. I've seen these clarifications from the designer(s). Perhaps, instead of the Finesse tag, they should just be Ranged weapon attacks (and therefore default to Dex)?

    I don't want to nerf Rogues - but sneak attack with a thrown flask isn't in my happy verisimiltude spot.

    Quote Originally Posted by IsaacsAlterEgo View Post
    And about your crossbow rule: Maybe specifically allow hand crossbows to be fired without disadvantage, since they are meant to be used one-handed? You would still only be able to do this for one turn, since you couldn't reload, unless a character carried a brace of loaded hand crossbows... Which is actually pretty interesting, come to think of it. They'd have to take dual-wielder to draw two every round, so I can't really see it being overpowered.
    I think I specified light and heavy crossbows - there's no change to hand crossbows. :)

    AFAIK you can currently RAW carry braces of loaded crossbows as you describe if you want to multiattack with them without Crossbow Expert.

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    I don't like the Weapon Master change. Yes, the feat sucks, but this looks more like a new feat. Furthermore, it needs refining, it's silly to have someone throwing several Mauls (or even several Rapiers), not to mention several Pikes, in 6 seconds.
    I'm open to other ideas, if you have some?

    I'm happy for it to "look like a new feat". I think the feat needs some radical change.

    As noted in the OP - I would refer to the social contract in case of extreme silliness. There are a lot of things that are silly in D&D if you aren't a good player (e.g. peasant railgun, economics). But if someone comes up with a cogent character concept for lobbing mauls - a Dwarven Olympiad perhaps - then maybe that could be fine under the right circumstances? Absent that, it's just a good perk for weapon-users to have.
    Last edited by Mr Adventurer; 2020-10-01 at 05:41 AM.

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    Default Re: List of tweaks I would make

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    I actually want to make the dragon breath something that can complement your attack routine - as it stands it is a weak attack that you will almost never use in practice and even less at higher levels - Con is never at attack score so tends to stay static, plus it never levels up so the action economy just becomes less and less favourable. It should be something you want to do.
    I see it as an AoE option for those that not necessarily have one (barbarians/fighters etc). Therefore I believe it ought to deal more total damage against 3+ targets than one (extra) attack action would.
    So at level 5 I would aim for having it deal more than 2x 2d6+5 = 24 but only if you catch 3 or more targets. This would put the damage at 3d6 (31.5 damage total against 3 targets, but 21 damage against 2 targets) at level 5 which matches exactly with your proposed changes, but as an action though.

    I feel it was intended as an alternative, not an addition. You could change it to a bonus action, but in that case I would let it key off Con still, that way it's a nice little bonus.
    I agree that it could use a buff, so my advice is:
    If you want it to complement attack routines: bonus action, key off of Con.
    If you want it to be an alternative to an attack: action, key off of Str or Cha.
    Last edited by Crucius; 2020-10-01 at 06:27 AM.
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    Default Re: List of tweaks I would make

    Your shield rule breaks dueling style.

    I don't think any of these match PAM/XBE, a stat bump, or SS/GWM after stat is maximized. Or a feat for booming blade or similar.

    So 16+4 (2 ASI) + 2 feats puts someone at level 19 before considering these feats often. Well 12 for casters and other feat starved builds and fighters.
    Last edited by Yakk; 2020-10-01 at 06:39 AM.

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    Default Re: List of tweaks I would make

    Quote Originally Posted by Crucius View Post
    I see it as an AoE option for those that not necessarily have one (barbarians/fighters etc). Therefore I believe it ought to deal more total damage against 3+ targets than one (extra) attack action would.
    So at level 5 I would aim for having it deal more than 2x 2d6+5 = 24 but only if you catch 3 or more targets. This would put the damage at 3d6 (31.5 damage total against 3 targets, but 21 damage against 2 targets) at level 5 which matches exactly with your proposed changes, but as an action though.

    I feel it was intended as an alternative, not an addition. You could change it to a bonus action, but in that case I would let it key off Con still, that way it's a nice little bonus.
    I agree that it could use a buff, so my advice is:
    If you want it to complement attack routines: bonus action, key off of Con.
    If you want it to be an alternative to an attack: action, key off of Str or Cha.
    This is really fair, I'm nodding along. The part where I don't agree so much is in comparison to only melee attacks. It should be a viable option for everyone. If it's more attractive for melee characters, that's fine.

    Hmm. Would it be possible to split the difference perhaps? I'm imagining:

    Dragon breath. You can breath energy like your draconic heritor. Choose Strength, Constitution, or Charisma for the save DC of this ability. You can use this ability once per round.
    Dragon flare. As a bonus action, breathe a 15' cone of energy, dealing 2d6 damage, save for half. (Note there's no rest recharge here, it's all at will.)
    Deep inhalation. As an action, breathe a 15' cone of energy, dealing 3d6 damage, save for half. The damage increases by 2d6 when you reach 5th level (5d6), 11th level (7d6), and 17th level (9d6). You can't use Deep inhalation again until after you finish a short or long rest.

    That feels like maybe too much damage on the deep inhalation...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    Your shield rule breaks dueling style.

    I don't think any of these match PAM/XBE, a stat bump, or SS/GWM after stat is maximized. Or a feat for booming blade or similar.

    So 16+4 (2 ASI) + 2 feats puts someone at level 19 before considering these feats often. Well 12 for casters and other feat starved builds and fighters.
    That's good to know - those are the high points of optimisation that some people think are too powerful.

    I see that the shield rule breaks Dueling style by means of disqualifying the style, since you have two weapons? Hm. Does the language on "for the purposes of two-weapon fighting" not save it from this?

    If not, probably the wording just needs to be tweaked so that a fighting style applies whenever you are employing it, i.e. you could wield a weapon and shield and use Dueling if you don't attack with the shield. The changing to wording may need to be implemented in the descriptions of Fighting Style features rather than the shield rule.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Oct 2019

    Default Re: List of tweaks I would make

    I like the idea of a feat that allows a BA shield strike (1d6 + ST), as an option to the shield master feat (you can push or smash).

    I'd also like to see a feat that grants shield proff.

    The one that you proposed that I can't wrap my head around is Elvin Accuracy instead allows you to retain Inspiration after spending it, once/rest. - So no more roll 3 D20 to hit, but if the bard grants you inspiration, you can use it twice (but only do that one time per short rest)? That seems a HUGE nerf and creates a near useless feat - what am I missing?

    I do agree that race feats bug me as an idea - I think they should be open to all or none (but that's just personal preference and I can understand why some prefer the unique race packages).
    Last edited by da newt; 2020-10-01 at 08:12 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #17

    Default Re: List of tweaks I would make

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    Thanks!

    I think EA is still competitive with Lucky this way. Lucky only recharges on a long rest, this on a short rest; and EA still gives the stat bonus. But this isn't playtested.
    Lucky is far more efficient than Inspiration though because you can apply it after you see that you've rolled low.

    Also, having three Lucky rolls all available up front instead of inspiration 1/rest increases the chance that you'll get to use the extra dice in a situation that actually matters (such as a deadly fight or crucial negotiation) instead of during buildup or denoument.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Yakk's Avatar

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    Nov 2006

    Default Re: List of tweaks I would make

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    That's good to know - those are the high points of optimisation that some people think are too powerful.
    One of them was just "+2 to primary stat".

    Going from dex 16 to 18 on a rogue, strength 16 to 18 on a fighter, intelligence 16 to 18 on a wizard.

    Almost all gameplay is from level 1 to 10. In these levels, your primary attribute isn't 20 yet. So a feat to be used commonly cannot suck compared to +1 to hit/+1 damage for melee, and +1 DCs for casters, and incidental abilities (+1 save paladin, extra inspiration bard,+1 AC dex builds, etc).

    If your attacks deal 2d6+3 damage (10) and hit 60% of the time, +1 to hit and damage:

    Before: .65*7 + .6 * 3 = 6.35 damage per attack on average
    After: .7*7 + .65*4 = 7.5 damage per attack on average

    Change: +18% damage per round from +1 to hit and damage.

    That is the baseline you are competing with.
    I see that the shield rule breaks Dueling style by means of disqualifying the style, since you have two weapons? Hm. Does the language on "for the purposes of two-weapon fighting" not save it from this?

    If not, probably the wording just needs to be tweaked so that a fighting style applies whenever you are employing it, i.e. you could wield a weapon and shield and use Dueling if you don't attack with the shield. The changing to wording may need to be implemented in the descriptions of Fighting Style features rather than the shield rule.
    I personally change Dueling to be "+2 to damage with any melee weapon held in one hand", add "and you can draw a weapon as part of an attack with it", eliminate TWF style, and add "attribute to damage" to the DW feat.

    Dueling becomes TWF/Thrown/Sword+Board styles in one. (The ability to move between them is a small perk).
    Last edited by Yakk; 2020-10-01 at 08:34 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Titan in the Playground
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    Dec 2008

    Default Re: List of tweaks I would make

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    Hmm. Would it be possible to split the difference perhaps? I'm imagining:

    Dragon breath. You can breath energy like your draconic heritor. Choose Strength, Constitution, or Charisma for the save DC of this ability. You can use this ability once per round.
    Dragon flare. As a bonus action, breathe a 15' cone of energy, dealing 2d6 damage, save for half. (Note there's no rest recharge here, it's all at will.)
    Deep inhalation. As an action, breathe a 15' cone of energy, dealing 3d6 damage, save for half. The damage increases by 2d6 when you reach 5th level (5d6), 11th level (7d6), and 17th level (9d6). You can't use Deep inhalation again until after you finish a short or long rest.

    That feels like maybe too much damage on the deep inhalation...
    Dragon Flare becomes the second most powerful bonus action in the game (after moon Druid wild shape) from levels 1-3 where a single use can take down a lot of goblins and doing it every turn makes you the best area of effect combatant in the game, before it becomes practically irrelevant by later levels.

    Deep Inhalation is a once per rest Burning Hands, which is really good as most racials that grant 1st level spells do so once per day, and often aren’t received until 3rd level. And burning hands is also overtuned slightly. Anyway, it then scales as you level to a once a short rest 5th level spell slot.

    That’s an incredibly powerful ability. 3 first level spell slots a day at low levels is really really good. But 3 fifth level spell slots at 17 that can only be a somewhat close-ish cone is I think deceptively weaker than might first be apparent. It definitely breaks the pattern of features given as racial traits in the game (which I am not specifically against but it is a thing to recognize). But I definitely don’t see it as strong as level 1 flight and Gnomish Cunning or Magic Resistance and definitely isn’t as good as a free feat.

    Personally, I’d follow the other spellgranting races a little. If you’re willing to go a bit modular. At 3rd level you gain your Breath Weapon for +2d6 and it increases by +1d6 every two levels thereafter, you end on 10d6 at 19th level.

    You mostly skip the levels where one use of breath weapon can end an encounter. And it remains relevant as a mook weakener the entire game. Even at its most powerful 35 damage save for half isnt breaking anything at 19th level.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Jan 2013

    Default Re: List of tweaks I would make

    After reviewing the original Dragonborn breath weapon again, I'm going to change my original tweak, and just make it choice-of-ability-DC and always a bonus action.

    I also have a new one:

    FEAT
    • Charger no longer requires you to Dash as an action nor move >10 feet specifically. Instead, whenever you move at least half your speed toward an enemy in a straight line and then take the Attack action against that enemy, you can add +5 damage to the first attack that hits and you can also replace one of the attacks with a Shove with Advantage on your roll. (Obviously if you only have one attack then you can only get one of these.) You can use no more of your Movement on your turn after doing this.

    The wording probably needs improvement here. Edit: for example, you don't 'take Attack actions against an enemy'. You attack enemies. The action itself is not allocated to targets.
    Last edited by Mr Adventurer; 2020-10-03 at 09:05 AM.

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