Optimisation for a cleric

[Trandir]

I cut the possible domains to forge and order. And I can't decide what to choose and I am not all that knowledgable about clerics.

I rolled for stats and got pretty lucky with this: 17, 16, 14, 12, 10, 10. And my companions will be a monk, a paladin, a barbarian and a blasty sorcerer. And I'd like to fight next to them. We all begin at 3rd level and UA is allowed after approval (CFV got approved to say one, so even terrible channels can become extra healing words) and anything printed by Wizard is legal apparently (our wizard got a dagonmark)

As for the race anything with +1/2 to wisdom and +2/1 to con would fit nicely allowing for two 18 and a 14, and I don't know if getting a 18 and two 16 would be better, Str is likely to fall off pretty hard later on anyway.

As for the spells (assuming 18 Wis) I'd get 7 prepared spells plus the domain ones. Spiritual weapon, bless, guiding bolt and healing word are some solid spells but I don't know what else to pick.

So after this. Any advice?

[Emongnome777]

V human and take res (con) to get your two 18s is an option. As for spells, Aid was a good spell for our party in tier 1. Blindness/Deafness and Hold Person are good 2nd level spells as well.

[Teaguethebean]

By fight along side do you mean in melee? I would recommend being a backline warrior instead, as if you hang in the back you could be a order domain hill dwarf with 18 wis 18 con and everything else is flavor though I would recommend a positive dex. With dwarf you wont need strength for heavy armor and if you do in fact need to enter melee you can still just cast cantrips and use spirit guardians. Though your weapons wouldn't be as effective.

[Petrocorus]

Hill Dwarf is always quite obvious for heavy armor cleric.
You can have your two 18 and you can wear heavy armor with 14 Str. And get prof with warhammer.

Firbolg can give you 18 Wis, 17 Con (that you will even with Res), 15 Str (the requirement for full plate)

You can also go for a Dex build (for Order) with a Wood Elf and get 18 Wis, 16 Con, 16 Dex or 18 Wis, 14 Con, 18 Dex. And then get access to Wood Elf Magic.

Vuman is also always good, but remember about your need for 15 Str.

Remember that after level 5, you cantrips will probably be more effective than your weapon attack, even with Divine Strike once accuracy is accounted for.

[Nhorianscum]

I cut the possible domains to forge and order. And I can't decide what to choose and I am not all that knowledgable about clerics.

I rolled for stats and got pretty lucky with this: 17, 16, 14, 12, 10, 10. And my companions will be a monk, a paladin, a barbarian and a blasty sorcerer. And I'd like to fight next to them. We all begin at 3rd level and UA is allowed after approval (CFV got approved to say one, so even terrible channels can become extra healing words) and anything printed by Wizard is legal apparently (our wizard got a dagonmark)

As for the race anything with +1/2 to wisdom and +2/1 to con would fit nicely allowing for two 18 and a 14, and I don't know if getting a 18 and two 16 would be better, Str is likely to fall off pretty hard later on anyway.

As for the spells (assuming 18 Wis) I'd get 7 prepared spells plus the domain ones. Spiritual weapon, bless, guiding bolt and healing word are some solid spells but I don't know what else to pick.

So after this. Any advice?

So, tier 1 cleric, with high roll stats?

Yeah as long as you actually have a Wis stat this is already a really powerful PC.

In no order:

You're a cleric, you know the entire list. You do not have to chose spells, just prepare them based on the expected day. You also prepare a whopping 11 spells every day at 3rd level including your domain list. The answer is "don't worry about it" do what you like.

Domain choice is purely your personal preferance, you're a tier 1 cleric, by default you're nusto busto bonkers.

Race: Tashas exists, just pick whatever you like, don't worry about the strongest option because you're a tier 1 cleric and are by default. Bonkers.

The through line here is "it's a tier 1 cleric with high roll stats" moon druid is like, on par with what your class does(?) but nothing else is remotely close until the sorcerer hits tier 2 and the wizard hits tier 3. Your choices that are not actively and intentionally nerfing your PC are irrelevant in light of its tier 1 clericness.

[CTurbo]

Hill Dwarf Forge Cleric with 14 Str, 18 Con, 18 Wis

Wear Plate and use a shield

Take Warcaster at level 4
Take +2 Wis at level 8
Take Dwarven Resilience at level 12
Take Res(Con) at level 16
Take Lucky at level 19


This is such a simple yet such an incredibly effective character.

20 Con, 20 Wis, 20 AC, unshakeable concentration,..

[Petrocorus]

Hill Dwarf Forge Cleric with 14 Str, 18 Con, 18 Wis

Wear Plate and use a shield

Take Warcaster at level 4
Take +2 Wis at level 8
Take Dwarven Resilience at level 12
Take Res(Con) at level 16
Take Lucky at level 19


This is such a simple yet such an incredibly effective character.

20 Con, 20 Wis, 20 AC, unshakeable concentration,..

I like this, though i'd probably take Res (Con) before Dwarven Fortitude.

[Trandir]

By fight along side do you mean in melee?

I mean being 5-15 ft from the other melee. There I would cast spells most likely



I like both domains. Forge makes you rather hard to kill and adds some punch to the spell list, order screws with the action economy and is more control oriented. And both channels are bad enough that using them to fuel Harness Divine Power to get a 1st level spell looks like a good deal.

For the ability scores I can probably be a dwarf and ignore Str or be any other race and either live with 20 ft of speed in plate or invest a bit in Str.

I know the spells can be changed dailty but I still have to pick 7 to prepare, hold person and blindness are nice ones right?

[Trandir]

I just discovered a thing that may influence the choices (maybe even push for another class): the EXP got boosted to lightspeed

The campaign is expected to last 4 months so about 16 sessions and begins at 3rd level. And the DM wants to end it at 16-17th level. Which means both that the tier 1 will last about 2 sessions and that we can actually look at higher level stuff. Both spells, more ASI and most important class features.


Does that changes the priorities?

[Petrocorus]

And both channels are bad enough that using them to fuel Harness Divine Power to get a 1st level spell looks like a good deal.

What is Harness Divine Power? Is this from UA?

[Trandir]

What is Harness Divine Power? Is this from UA?

Yup the Class Feature Variant one. Harness Divine Power basically uses channel divinity to restore one 1st level spell slot that has been expended. Is not much but more healing words is never bad

[Petrocorus]

Yup the Class Feature Variant one. Harness Divine Power basically uses channel divinity to restore one 1st level spell slot that has been expended. Is not much but more healing words is never bad

OK.
I focus on the ranger stuff in this UA.
If you have you DM's approval, good for you.

[Nhorianscum]

I just discovered a thing that may influence the choices (maybe even push for another class): the EXP got boosted to lightspeed

The campaign is expected to last 4 months so about 16 sessions and begins at 3rd level. And the DM wants to end it at 16-17th level. Which means both that the tier 1 will last about 2 sessions and that we can actually look at higher level stuff. Both spells, more ASI and most important class features.


Does that changes the priorities?

Yup. It means dipping denies 9th level spells.

[Trandir]

OK.
I focus on the ranger stuff in this UA.
If you have you DM's approval, good for you.

I asked before posting and that one got approved

Yup. It means dipping denies 9th level spells.

True.

This also means that I may expect to use the last domain feature.

And this gets me back to the fact that I do not know what domain to choose. Arcane domain also suddently got a lo more intresting

[Nhorianscum]

This also means that I may expect to use the last domain feature.

And this gets me back to the fact that I do not know what domain to choose. Arcane domain also suddently got a lo more intresting

It's sorta a non-choice in terms of charOP, the domains are all extemely strong.

In your party I'd honestly lean towards knowledge as the skill monkey/scout role is wide open.

[Eldariel]

If you have a chance to get to level 17, Forge is pretty good though I'd make sure to consider the absolutely incredible Arcana capstone as well. Of course, much of the game is the trip there but this stat line-up works better for Potent Spellcasting than Divine Strike. Forge is really solid far as frontlining goes though missing out on efficient Divine Striking can be a bit of a bummer. Vuman Forge Cleric wielding a Quarterstaff with Shillelagh at 17 Con/18 Wis is not bad for instance if you wanna melee does get around that (though then you miss out on Booming Blade instead; the only option to get both is to go some Cantrip-gaining race and take Shillelagh on level 4). Though probably the better option is to just accept that you're better off using cantrips (especially starting from tier 2) and just running with Toll the Dead as your primary vector of attack (War Caster gives you AoOs with it). Of course, it's inconvenient that neither Forge nor Order gets Potent Spellcasting, which would obviously be better in this route (Divine Strike requires attacks which won't be your forte until you find Gauntlets of Ogre Strength or better).

In any case, since your difference between Str and Wis will be so high, it's hard to recommend using anything that doesn't make use of that amazing Wis/Con setup you can have. To that end, Arcana would frankly be a great option since Booming Blade/Green-Flame Blade bring your Wis to bear in melee if you pick up Shillelagh. This would look like 17 Con/18 Wis Shillelagh then War Caster on 4 and +2 Wis on 8 and Res: Con on 12 for 18 Con/20 Wis (18 Wis on 8 where Potent Spellcasting comes in). Melee without using Wis for attack is a bit meh with this statline since the to hit loss is very real unless you put the 16 to Str (which is frankly kinda waste since you could have amazing Con, which is pretty darn nice for a frontlining Cleric).


EDIT: Despite not mentioning it alongside Forge, Order would be a fine specialisation too; you can make good use of the level 6 ability and the level 1 ability is always great for Clerics. And they get a good Divine Strike though sadly you'll again have to jump through hoops to use Wis with it.

EDIT#2: Actually, this is one of the cases (if going Forge or Order) where I'd consider dipping Druid 1 for Shillelagh. It has a lot of perks like Goodberry and Entangle which work great with your stuff and Cleric is slightly less bothered by missing out on higher level spells known than most other casters. Goodberry specifically is amazing on any full caster for turning your leftover slots for healing for the next day and getting some extra CC is just sweet considering Cleric's particular inclinations. You still get to cast your max level Spirit Guardians past 6 (missing out on it for 1 level in a fast leveling game isn't that bad) and while you miss out on some amazing higher level spells and abilities for a level, this probably allows you to fulfill your fantasy of a frontline brawler Cleric a bit better since then you can Magic Initiate/race for Booming Blade and be set far as melee damage goes, able to also utilise Divine Strike (particularly the Psychic strike from Order is great).

[Chugger]

If you don't know how to play Cleric, always pick Guidance as a cantrip. Toll the Dead targets wis and hits hard.

Get the campaign's pace and be careful casting spells on junk fights. Healing word is great. Spiritual Weapon is a waste on an easy fight but great on a longer, harder fight. Remember, SW is a bonus action thing, so you can do it and hit with a cantrip or a melee weapon. If you think the target has a high AC and a low wis save - and it's already hurt - Toll the Dead is probably the better option.

At lvl 5 things get more interesting. Your normal routine for any non-junk fight is rnd one position yourself well and cast Spirit Guardians (later on it is worth upcasting on tough or long fights). Round 2 on b.a. cast Spiritual Weapon and either Toll the Dead or do melee. Spir Guardian does 3d8 to all enemies in range (and not allies), that' 13.5 average damage a turn per enemy that doesn't save. And it's difficult terrain. Spir weapon is 1d8 + 4 or 8.5 (assuming you increased wis at lvl 4), and Toll Dead is now 2d12. On your main target you're doing 29 average points of damage a turn, plus the aoe damage on other creatures - that's really good.

You heal as allies drop to zero - you may need to use an action to dispel (especially if an ally is mind-controlled to attack the party) or lesser restoration away a nasty effect off an ally.

This is your main routine on tough fights.

If you're optimizing, pick variant human and either warcaster or resilient con as your starting feat. If you're a melee cleric with a weapon in one hand and a shield in the other, you need warcaster - unless dm is lenient and lets you cast spells by waving your symbol embossed shield. Some DMs allow that and don't fool with the hands-are-full part of the rules, and some DMs pretty much require you to take warcaster. You need to maintain concentration on spells - this is important.

Have you considered grave cleric? If you can be UA clerics, they might be really good - I play a lot of AL and can't use UA, so I'm not up on it. The positive things about grave cleric is that once per short rest (twice after level six) you can curse a target to be vulnerable to all damage it receives on its next hit, until your next turn ends. If the party has a strong single damage doer - a rogue's sneak attack, a Pal smite, or you upcasting Inflict Wounds (get advantage for this attack) - you can really lay the smack down on something.

Let's say you're lvl 7 fighting a mean, high hitpoint boss. On round 1 you pop Spiritual Weapon as a b.a. and curse the boss with your action, telling party to let the pal or rogue hit it next. If the melee order causes this to make no sense, then hold your action to trigger "right before the rogue's turn" or something like that. Or let's say there are several nasty, high hit point monsters, and you're in the middle of a fight where you've already cast Spirit Guardians and Spiritual weapon - and the others are concentrating on one and bringing it down - you decide you want to hurt one they're not attacking. Curse it as an action, then somehow get advantage - ask the party wizard to have his familiar grant you advantage next turn, say - and then next turn upcast inflict wounds at lvl 4. That's 6d10 x2 or 33 x 2 or 66 damage.

Next at lvl 6 you can un-crit any critical hit in 30' of you with a reaction. That's very useful. Four times a day iirc if wis is 18.

Next, any time a party member drops to zero, your heals aren't rolled - you heal max. So healing word at lvl 1 is always 4 + mod. If you cure wounds at lvl 2 that's 20 points - 16 + 4 if wis is 18. This is very powerful, because many times I've witnessed whack-a-mole battles where a party member is dropped to zero, healed back to 4 or 7 health - then dropped again - then healed back to low health - then dropped again - it's silly and wasteful. If instead you can boost him to 20 health w/ a lvl 2 slot, he's going to be strong enough to either get back to range and use his bow - or deal damage on his next turn and help kill this stupid monster and not just drop again.

Anyway, you may be set on forge or order, but I just wanted to plug grave because it's what I'd play. Those other options are great, too, and as long as you understand that cleric needs to pump out damage - and they're good at it - you'll be great, whatever you pick. 5e is about getting enemies dead fast or controlled (you probably know that). I hope this helped.

(edit, forgot to say a med armor cleric isn't that weak in terms of AC if you have at least a 14 dex - your ac is typically 1 behind a heavy armor wearing cleric and you can not worry about needing Str to wear hvy armor effectively - a great tactic that I didn't know early on is to cast Spir Guardians rnd 1 on a tough fight, then if you're getting pummeled, on round 2 b.a. cast spir weapon, SG works by itself now as long as you concentrate on it, and use your action to _dodge_. This can really help you in a tough fight where something is bearing down on you - you still hurt it but make it hard for the thing to hit you)

[Nhorianscum]

Grave isn't UA anymore, it got into xanathars if memory serves.

[CTurbo]

Hill Dwarf Forge Cleric with 14 Str, 18 Con, 18 Wis

Wear Plate and use a shield

Take Warcaster at level 4
Take +2 Wis at level 8
Take Dwarven Resilience at level 12
Take Res(Con) at level 16
Take Lucky at level 19


This is such a simple yet such an incredibly effective character.

20 Con, 20 Wis, 20 AC, unshakeable concentration,..

I just discovered a thing that may influence the choices (maybe even push for another class): the EXP got boosted to lightspeed

The campaign is expected to last 4 months so about 16 sessions and begins at 3rd level. And the DM wants to end it at 16-17th level. Which means both that the tier 1 will last about 2 sessions and that we can actually look at higher level stuff. Both spells, more ASI and most important class features.


Does that changes the priorities?

Knowing this, I stand by the option I presented above even stronger now. That character will be an absolute beast. At level 17, you gain IMMUNITY to fire and resistance to normal melee damage. I chose Dwarven Fortitude before Res(Con) because it's more "fun" and something I'd want for more levels and also having a 20 Con AND Warcaster, you won't really NEED Con saves, but of course they help, and it's one of those feats that gets better the later your character is. I said above that your AC would be 20 but really it would be 22 minimum if you include your domain features.

I wouldn't dip, but if you were going to dip, starting a single level of Fighter gets you Con saves, +1 AC with the Defense Fighting Style, and less importantly, full weapon proficiencies. That free up a ASI/feat slot for potentially a more "fun" feat later.

[Chugger]

Grave isn't UA anymore, it got into xanathars if memory serves.

Yep that's why I know about it - I can play it in AL - I don't know much about order clerics, sadly, I think they're still UA.

[Nhorianscum]

Yep that's why I know about it - I can play it in AL - I don't know much about order clerics, sadly, I think they're still UA.

Woops, appologies.

Order made it in via the ravnica book... greatly changed from their UA.

[Trandir]

Of course, it's inconvenient that neither Forge nor Order gets Potent Spellcasting, which would obviously be better in this route (Divine Strike requires attacks which won't be your forte until you find Gauntlets of Ogre Strength or better).

I don't know if you noticed but the CFV UA got approved so I can use Blessed Strikes which is at the same time better and worse than the original features it replaces (1d8 vs 5/2d8). But on the bright side it allows domains like forge to better use cantrips and to be a little gish if need be.

The rest of the advice is also great.

If you don't know how to play Cleric, always pick Guidance as a cantrip. Toll the Dead targets wis and hits hard.

Get the campaign's pace and be careful casting spells on junk fights. Healing word is great. Spiritual Weapon is a waste on an easy fight but great on a longer, harder fight. Remember, SW is a bonus action thing, so you can do it and hit with a cantrip or a melee weapon. If you think the target has a high AC and a low wis save - and it's already hurt - Toll the Dead is probably the better option.

At lvl 5 things get more interesting. Your normal routine for any non-junk fight is rnd one position yourself well and cast Spirit Guardians (later on it is worth upcasting on tough or long fights). Round 2 on b.a. cast Spiritual Weapon and either Toll the Dead or do melee. Spir Guardian does 3d8 to all enemies in range (and not allies), that' 13.5 average damage a turn per enemy that doesn't save. And it's difficult terrain. Spir weapon is 1d8 + 4 or 8.5 (assuming you increased wis at lvl 4), and Toll Dead is now 2d12. On your main target you're doing 29 average points of damage a turn, plus the aoe damage on other creatures - that's really good.

You heal as allies drop to zero - you may need to use an action to dispel (especially if an ally is mind-controlled to attack the party) or lesser restoration away a nasty effect off an ally.

This is your main routine on tough fights.

If you're optimizing, pick variant human and either warcaster or resilient con as your starting feat. If you're a melee cleric with a weapon in one hand and a shield in the other, you need warcaster - unless dm is lenient and lets you cast spells by waving your symbol embossed shield. Some DMs allow that and don't fool with the hands-are-full part of the rules, and some DMs pretty much require you to take warcaster. You need to maintain concentration on spells - this is important.

Have you considered grave cleric? If you can be UA clerics, they might be really good - I play a lot of AL and can't use UA, so I'm not up on it. The positive things about grave cleric is that once per short rest (twice after level six) you can curse a target to be vulnerable to all damage it receives on its next hit, until your next turn ends. If the party has a strong single damage doer - a rogue's sneak attack, a Pal smite, or you upcasting Inflict Wounds (get advantage for this attack) - you can really lay the smack down on something.

Let's say you're lvl 7 fighting a mean, high hitpoint boss. On round 1 you pop Spiritual Weapon as a b.a. and curse the boss with your action, telling party to let the pal or rogue hit it next. If the melee order causes this to make no sense, then hold your action to trigger "right before the rogue's turn" or something like that. Or let's say there are several nasty, high hit point monsters, and you're in the middle of a fight where you've already cast Spirit Guardians and Spiritual weapon - and the others are concentrating on one and bringing it down - you decide you want to hurt one they're not attacking. Curse it as an action, then somehow get advantage - ask the party wizard to have his familiar grant you advantage next turn, say - and then next turn upcast inflict wounds at lvl 4. That's 6d10 x2 or 33 x 2 or 66 damage.

Next at lvl 6 you can un-crit any critical hit in 30' of you with a reaction. That's very useful. Four times a day iirc if wis is 18.

Next, any time a party member drops to zero, your heals aren't rolled - you heal max. So healing word at lvl 1 is always 4 + mod. If you cure wounds at lvl 2 that's 20 points - 16 + 4 if wis is 18. This is very powerful, because many times I've witnessed whack-a-mole battles where a party member is dropped to zero, healed back to 4 or 7 health - then dropped again - then healed back to low health - then dropped again - it's silly and wasteful. If instead you can boost him to 20 health w/ a lvl 2 slot, he's going to be strong enough to either get back to range and use his bow - or deal damage on his next turn and help kill this stupid monster and not just drop again.

Anyway, you may be set on forge or order, but I just wanted to plug grave because it's what I'd play. Those other options are great, too, and as long as you understand that cleric needs to pump out damage - and they're good at it - you'll be great, whatever you pick. 5e is about getting enemies dead fast or controlled (you probably know that). I hope this helped.

(edit, forgot to say a med armor cleric isn't that weak in terms of AC if you have at least a 14 dex - your ac is typically 1 behind a heavy armor wearing cleric and you can not worry about needing Str to wear hvy armor effectively - a great tactic that I didn't know early on is to cast Spir Guardians rnd 1 on a tough fight, then if you're getting pummeled, on round 2 b.a. cast spir weapon, SG works by itself now as long as you concentrate on it, and use your action to _dodge_. This can really help you in a tough fight where something is bearing down on you - you still hurt it but make it hard for the thing to hit you)

I see. Thanks for the help in the spell side I'll make sure to pull my weight with the damage.

I think I'll take the Forge Cleric Hill Dwarf route tho, so I can avoid feeling guilty with leaving 14 Str. (grave is indeed a great choice). I'd begin with this array postracials 14, 12, 18, 10, 18, 10 then what should be the progression? Lv 4 max wis, lv 8 res (con), lv 12 (dwarven relience), lv 16 idk but it will pass quite a while before then.

Knowing this, I stand by the option I presented above even stronger now. That character will be an absolute beast. At level 17, you gain IMMUNITY to fire and resistance to normal melee damage. I chose Dwarven Fortitude before Res(Con) because it's more "fun" and something I'd want for more levels and also having a 20 Con AND Warcaster, you won't really NEED Con saves, but of course they help, and it's one of those feats that gets better the later your character is. I said above that your AC would be 20 but really it would be 22 minimum if you include your domain features.

I wouldn't dip, but if you were going to dip, starting a single level of Fighter gets you Con saves, +1 AC with the Defense Fighting Style, and less importantly, full weapon proficiencies. That free up a ASI/feat slot for potentially a more "fun" feat later.

Ye **** it it's forge time. And I also would avoid dipping, I'd lose a level of spells despide getting the good save for concentration and another 1 to AC. I've been taught "thou shall not lose caster levels" which basically means no multiclassing with casters unless there is a really big payoff (looking at you paladin and warlock).

[CTurbo]

I think I'll take the Forge Cleric Hill Dwarf route tho, so I can avoid feeling guilty with leaving 14 Str. (grave is indeed a great choice). I'd begin with this array postracials 14, 12, 18, 10, 18, 10 then what should be the progression? Lv 4 max wis, lv 8 res (con), lv 12 (dwarven relience), lv 16 idk but it will pass quite a while before then.

I'd take +2 Wis and Warcaster in either order at levels 4 and 8
I'd take Res(Con) and Dwarven Resilience in either order at levels 12 and 16