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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Talakeal's Avatar

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    Default Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    I just had a conversation with my brother about starting a family RPG group since my regular group is on definite hiatus due to quarantine. His response was that he doesn't want to game with me again because of an incident that happened nearly 20 years ago.

    Essentially, it was his first time DMing, and his adventure hook involved an NPC with a hypnotic gaze mind controlling the players into going on a quest for him, and I had my character blind herself rather than be subject to his mind control, essentially ruining both his plot and my character, and thus the campaign came to quick end.

    But, thinking back, its not an isolated incident. I have had numerous games where the DM railroaded the PCs into being captured as an adventure hook, and I took extreme measures to resist or escape and derailed / got kicked out of the campaign.

    On the opposite side of the screen, anytime I have ever tried to run a "jailbreak" type scenario, the players protest most strongly and will rather go down in a blaze or glory and suffer a TPK rather than surrender or allow themselves to be taken prisoner, and I have long since given up even trying.

    Likewise, I remember a common complaint on the old White Wolf forums being about the "Iron Will" merit (which makes you more or less immune to mind control) because without the ability to mind control the PCs, how could the Game Master ever ensure that they would go along with the plot?

    Likewise, I have seen some people complaining that the Descent into Avernus module starts with the PCs being drafted by the Flaming Fist under the threat of death, and I can't imagine that actually going over well with anybody.

    So, my question is, why do so many DMs, especially new DMs, need to strong arm players into going along with their adventures?

    Likewise, why are players so utterly afraid of allowing themselves to be captured and taken prisoner?

    Is there any right way to run a jailbreak / slave revolt scenario?
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGirl

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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Is there any right way to run a jailbreak / slave revolt scenario?
    The right way is to have player buy-in before you start. It's much easier if you have a larger pool of potential players to pull from, but essentially you want to say "I would like to run a campaign about [THING], are any of you interested in playing that?" And then running a nice, deep session 0 to hash out events that need player co-operation.

    Essentially the biggest problem comes when the DM makes decisions on behalf of the players. That's the usual root cause of player resentment in these scenarios. When the players agree to the decision ahead of it playing out, you tend to generate much less friction as a result.
    All advice given with the caveat that you know your group better than I do. If that wasn't true, you'd be getting advice face-to-face. So I generalize.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?

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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I just had a conversation with my brother about starting a family RPG group since my regular group is on definite hiatus due to quarantine. His response was that he doesn't want to game with me again because of an incident that happened nearly 20 years ago.

    Essentially, it was his first time DMing, and his adventure hook involved an NPC with a hypnotic gaze mind controlling the players into going on a quest for him, and I had my character blind herself rather than be subject to his mind control, essentially ruining both his plot and my character, and thus the campaign came to quick end.
    Your solution sounds like a more interesting end to the story than what he had planned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    So, my question is, why do so many DMs, especially new DMs, need to strong arm players into going along with their adventures?
    Because they are new and inexperienced they think that the cool story that they came up in their own heads is what will translate to a good game. The first lesson is that however cool your story seems in your own head, it is highly likely that your players will not perceive it the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Likewise, why are players so utterly afraid of allowing themselves to be captured and taken prisoner?
    Because they have seen the exact same thing in movies, books, etc. and it's never going to seem as interesting, fresh, etc. In many stories the capture/prisoner scenario is lame and contrived. Even when it is not, it is still not going to be as interesting in an RPG concept. People often play rpgs because they get to do things, not see things happen. Having control for many players is a crucial motivation to play games. Although RPGs are not a competitive endeavor, players often feel getting captured is akin to 'losing' even more so than getting killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Is there any right way to run a jailbreak / slave revolt scenario?
    Uh, run by your players in advance and see if the idea is compelling to them? Personally, if I had to play something like this, I would prefer that the DM just start the scenario with the PCs in captivity and go from there. Having to play it out would seem boring and a waste of time to me.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    The prisoner/jailbreak scenarios that I've run successfully all had two elements in common: First, it was the PC's actions that got them into jail. Second, the game system had either plot immune gear OR extremely replacable gear.

    On the first point, I have never seen any prison/jail scenario work worth a damn when it was NPCs driving the action. I've run them (only twice, I try to learn from mistakes), and I've played through them (six or ten times), and of course I've let others rant about them. They never worked when NPCs were in control. What has worked, three times, is the actions of the PCs putting themselves in a beliveable and justifiable "rock and a hard place" situation that ends in surrender. Failed space piracy from taking too long, not turning off a dropped cellphone, and not being in control of the docking/elevator mechanisim, was the most recent. The PCs knowingly started on a risky path, made multiple mistakes, and got into a spot where they couldn't run and fighting wouldn't go well.

    The second point is based on the system. I've had prison/jailbreak action work in point buy supers type games, early AD&D, and Paranoia. In point buy games your gear that's bought with character resources has a certain level of plot immunity. Iron Man may have to go without the armor for a bit, or Batman may not have the gadgets for a scene or two, but they're getting the stuff back in time to join the big fight. Because if they don't have their stuff, they can't play. Now early D&D and Paranoia have, effectively, temporary and replacable gear. Both games are more about player skill and fun than the character sheet. Old D&D had golf bags of magic swords at high levels in part because there were things that would break them and it was expected that every character would face things that ignored or were immune to their class abilities. In Paranoia you had clones that were just flat out given their gear again. Up to, and including, the experimental weapon from R&D that blew up your previous clone when you (mis)used it.

    Modern D&D/clones/spin-offs, and especially modules from publishers, just don't do either of those. Fighters turn into crap without weapons or armor, casters require components/foci/holy symbols for all the decent spells, stuff like that. The gear numbers are baked into the system but there isn't any assurance that your gear comes back. Without the gear numbers the characters mostly can't fight, and if the non-fighty part of the system is too "only exactly what the ability says" or too lol-random (or <shudder> both) to plan anything you're locked into asking the DM for a cut-scene escape. Then too, module writers tend to be really bad at presenting options because they have page limits. So you're not getting options for when the PCs get ambushed and win or run away, the capture is predetermined and sort of the ultimate lousy railroad scenario. Then too the writers need to explain and give the DM the tools to work through the scenario. That goes beyond a bad map, stat blocks, a locked chest with their stuff, and "if they aren't out by day X blow the place up and they fiat escapt during that". DMs, especially new DMs or just DMs new to a setting/system, need advice on what the PCs would know that the players don't, options, allies, possible rescue, prisoner transport, etc., etc. But all that takes word count that the module writers just don't seem to be allowed.

    Last thought. I've seen it work in one other system. Pendragon. Because everyone was legit, honorable, Arthurian-style knights and things like ransoms, keeping your word, and non-murderous rivals were built into the system and rewarded.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Likewise, why are players so utterly afraid of allowing themselves to be captured and taken prisoner?
    Because prisoners are completely at the mercy of unfriendly PCs for the forseeable future. And usually deprived of all/most of their options so they can't escape easily. Does that seem like fun ? Or something characters would like to do ? In fact, resisting in the captering scene, when the PCs still have all their weapons and powers ususlly seems like the most likely option to get/retain your freedom. Afterwards it is just passibly waiting until the DM hands you the escape opportunity and the characters can't know that such a thing might come their way.


    I have seen a couple of such scenarios work well. Most of them had the PCs captured organically and off the rails. They were already beaten and in a hopeless situation. Also in at least half the cases, not the complete party was captured. Because sometimes some PCs are in a better position to escape than others and that is what happends when you run captures without obnoxious railroading.

    But prison breaks ? Hardly ever have seen that. If the NPCs are not utter idiots, the PCs hardly ever get a chance to escape. Rescue can work but a prison break needs good reasons why it can happen and thus usually does not happen organically unless the NPCs have very wrong ideas about the PCs powers (and the PCs did not show off when captured). There were also lots of cases that ended in "let the PCs go" or "ransom the PCs".

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    Batcathat's Avatar

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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Is there any right way to run a jailbreak / slave revolt scenario?
    I think the same applies to that as to any other scenario. The GM can try to push the party a certain way (whether it's by people trying to capture them, offering them a huge reward or something else) but shouldn't railroad it if the party doesn't react as expected.

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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    One good way to run a jail break I've seen is to get the *characters* to agree to it.

    They've been tasked with rescuing a political prisoner from your campaigns version of Alcatraz.
    However they don't know where the prisoner is inside the prison and there is a ring of lethal defenses pointing 'outward' to stop rescue attempts.

    Combine that with a hostile army of reinforcements an hour or so out from the prison, and they simply don't have enough of a time window to go in spells blazing and search the entire prison.

    The contact hiring them suggests the idea of intentionally getting arrested and sent to the prison under cover identities.
    This gives the characters the chance to store at home any items they don't want to risk, make up interesting cover stories to help them not stand out in the prison, and set up backup plans in case something goes wrong.
    Obvious one here would be a second rescue party to try a jail break in 2 months time, precisely at midnight. If the characters know a jailbreak is coming, they can sabotage defenses and be ready to get themselves and the prisoner to the extraction point before the reinforcements arrive.

    'Break the Chains' by Megan E. O'Keefe is interesting inspiration for this style of adventure.
    A side benefit of this idea is that the characters will have card blanche to break the law, to get thrown in prison under cover identities.
    What crime would your characters do if they effectively wouldn't suffer the consequences for it?

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    The only time I have run a capture scenario (and felt that it worked), I deliberately contrived situations to split the party up, ambushing them individually, and then took the player aside and said "look, you are going to get captured due to plot; we can play it out if you like, but its likely going to be frustrating and tedious, or we can just describe between us how it happened, and get it over with fast". None of my players wasted time dice rolling, and were happy to go along with the plot.

    I did a similar thing when I ran a Doppleganger plot; the first sct required the party to get overwhelmed by Dopplegangers, so each time a character and a Doppleganger were alone together, I took them aside, told them they were killed and replaced with a Doppleganger, but not to worry, this isn't the end, and read them the flavour text of their release/ressurection, and then let them play on as the under-cover Doppleganger in their old form. Instead of being annoyed by the plot, my players had a whale of a time, and there was even an in-character arguement between two players-turned-Doppleganger who were competing with each other to claim the scalp of a confused still-human party member.

    The secret is having the player on your side for the capture. It needs trust, but a party without trust between their players and DM is doomed anyway. The reason most players resist is they assume 'bad things' will happen to their character, and they are expected to resist, because if they don't, its game over. But if you assure them "its ok, nothing long-term bad is going to happen, and I am not going to use it to cheat you out of well-earned abilities or items, I just need it to reframe the start of the next part of the story", they will nearly always go along with it.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Captivity goes hand in hand with humiliation, helplessness, loss of autonomy and violation of self-efficacy. Some people are just not into that for a variety of reasons.

    Even if they have no fundamental objection to explore such themes in the frame of an rpg, they might want to do that with one character but not the other. For example, my GM once ran ye olde "You are captured by slavers in a cutscene, overthrow those after some months of slavery, but there is no way to leave the otherwise deserted island. You'll have to accept being shanghaied into the crew of a passing pirate ship and go on pirate adventures with them." plot. Absolutely lovely, had he been upfront about this. Sadly, he didn't want to spoil that little surprise and so I brought a lawful good paladin that would have preferred death in battle to enslavement and being a hermit on a jungle island to partaking in murder, pillage and torture so I fought every development of the story tooth and nail. That campaign kind of crashed and burned. Im sure it would have worked with some info on the planned contents during character creation.

    If given half a chance, I try to make a point of slaughtering every PC or NPC that uses any form of mind control against my characters. Jedi, wizard, vampire - it does not really matter. They need to die, preferably in a painful and humiliating fashion, forgiveness is off the table, and whatever plan they had shall be ruined on principle, and it does not matter in the slightest if it was "benevolent" or "for the greater good". Having my character mind-controlled is just that obnoxious to me. I'm a total hypocrite, though, and happily use those spells against NPC myself - when I play villainous characters. If presented with a whole adventure that revolved around being mind-controlled to do stuff, I'd hand the GM my character sheet and tell him to go play with himself or write a novel, since that's obviously what he actually wants to do.
    Last edited by Berenger; 2020-10-01 at 05:57 AM.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Is there any right way to run a jailbreak / slave revolt scenario?
    Suggestion A:

    1) Have a jailbreak scenario somewhat ready, in parallel of your main scenario.
    2) If the PCs gets into a jail, ask for the end of the session / a break for you to adapt your jailbreak scenario to current situation.
    3) If the PCs don't get into jail, continue with your main scenario.
    PS: If you really like your jailbreak scenario and want to eventually run it, make sure to have enemies that have reasons to not kill the PCs, and that the players know it. Lawful enemies are great for that.
    => This suggestion is very practical to convert an unexpected TPK into an interesting opportunity.

    Suggestion B:

    If you're gonna railroad, try to attenuate as much as possible the frustration:
    1) Try to find a moment where it feels "deserved". If your players are anywhere similar to my friends, the number of traps "obvious a posteriori" they fall into is high enough to always have such opportunities.
    2) Peoples are much more complacent with railroading when it happens at the "beginning" rather than at the "middle" or "end" of a scenario.
    3) I'd rather have a single sentence saying "You're overrun by enemies and captured" than a full fight where my choices don't matters. (Unless the quality of gameplay during the fight is so exceptional and would be worth a session by itself. But "how to correctly DM a fight doomed to failure" is another subject by itself).
    4) Accept objections from the players. You might consider that railroading is worth the upcoming fun from your scenario. However, peoples have different fun, so accept that you might be wrong and that what you're offering in exchange is not worth their frustration.
    Last edited by MoiMagnus; 2020-10-01 at 06:21 AM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Just run it as a one-shot or as the opening for a longer campaign. The game starts with the characters in jail already. And then you can ask cool leading questions about why and how they ended up there.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    A few thoughts to add on to my OP:

    It seems like A LOT of modules start with the players as prisoners. So maybe I am overestimating PC antipathy for being captured (or the module authors are just underestimating it).


    I actually like playing a prisoner personally. Bridge on the River Kwai is one of my favorite movies, and I love playing out similar contests of wills with my captors in RPGs and the RP opportunities it creates. But I guess that isn't for everyone.


    Basically, I have seen a jailbreak scenario happening in one of two ways:

    1: Artificially, in which case the PCs just begin the adventure in captivity, in which case the players will complain about railroading and loss of agency or
    2: Organically, where they pick a fight they can't win (or just have really bad luck) and end up captured. But the thing is, there is no point prepping such a scenario, as the players will invariable refuse to surrender, fight to the death, and end the campaign.

    So at this point I just don't even bother.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jorren View Post
    Because they have seen the exact same thing in movies, books, etc. and it's never going to seem as interesting, fresh, etc. In many stories the capture/prisoner scenario is lame and contrived. Even when it is not, it is still not going to be as interesting in an RPG concept.
    Why does this apply to prison escapes more than any other genre though? Treasure hunts, monster slaying, foiling villains, and toppling dictators are all far more common plots, but seem to be widely accepted in RPGs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satinavian View Post
    Because prisoners are completely at the mercy of unfriendly PCs for the forseeable future. And usually deprived of all/most of their options so they can't escape easily. Does that seem like fun ? Or something characters would like to do ? In fact, resisting in the captering scene, when the PCs still have all their weapons and powers ususlly seems like the most likely option to get/retain your freedom.
    That seems bizarre to me both in and out of character. Out of character, you know the DM is going to offer you the chance to escape, because otherwise the campaign would end. In character, fighting to the death when the enemy has you dead rights is just dumb, if you surrender you can always live to fight another day.
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    Yora's Avatar

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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    So, my question is, why do so many DMs, especially new DMs, need to strong arm players into going along with their adventures?

    Likewise, why are players so utterly afraid of allowing themselves to be captured and taken prisoner?
    Because players generally expect to play a game where they are the heroes and the game is about them. Players are being told that RPGs are these special games in which they can do anything and their imagination is the only limit. That's generally how RPGs are pitched to people who never played them.

    Players have to be forced to go along with the GM's adventures because that's not what they were promised and what they signed up for. They want their characters to act like they want, not like the GM wants.

    The solution is to not run adventures that force the players to act in specific ways. Which is something almost no D&D adventure writer in the past 35-ish years understands.
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    It seems like A LOT of modules start with the players as prisoners. So maybe I am overestimating PC antipathy for being captured (or the module authors are just underestimating it).
    If the players starts as prisoners, you don't have the issue of having to capture the PCs in game. It makes the module less suited for slotting into an ongoing campaign however.

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelle View Post
    Just run it as a one-shot or as the opening for a longer campaign. The game starts with the characters in jail already. And then you can ask cool leading questions about why and how they ended up there.
    This is what I have done and the players knew this was going to be the kick off

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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    I've only done one "prison" scenario, but it was for 3 concurrent groups. And that was as a campaign starter:

    They were told before the game started "you're in prison. Could be for something you did or something you were accused of doing by this highly conformist society. Tell me what your character was imprisoned for." They were then offered death or life (metaphorically--the players were told that they could choose, but then they'd have to have new characters who chose life), but the life would be as "adventurers", ie disposable explorers and trouble-shooters on the frontier. From there on, they got shipped to their first location, but then were free to do whatever (no further chains). Total time in prison: ~half a session, all narrative/roleplay.

    It went over...ok. Except that each group went out of their way to escape any "chains" that remained as soon as possible and the one that went the furthest made sure to incite reform of the system to abolish that "adventuring" system later.

    Personally, I wouldn't mind a "starting in prison" as long as it wasn't a big part and we weren't left gear-less for a long time. Contrived "you've been captured in your sleep" or other things would feel like railroading. I also don't like mind control and don't use it myself, so...
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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Something else I've thought of, other than Pendragon (a game where characters have built-in morals and codes of honor that are rewarded by the system) all the successful prison/jailbreaks that I've seen have been in more modern style games. Supers, sci-fi, stuff like that.

    Perhaps it's because the players have a better understanding of how they can get out and there's an expectation of... something other than being chained to a wall in faux-medeval hole in the ground and constantly tortured. In a more modern setting the PCs can usually expect phone calls, lawyers, not being chained up all the time, no or minimal torture, and they probably have a better handle on who and how to do bribes.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    I've had PCs captured and imprisoned several times, and no one has ever complained. One of the most recent ones, all of the players went away telling me how great the session was. I'm not entirely sure why my experience is different, but I have a few ideas.

    First, I established pretty early on that when things are going badly for one side of combat, they try to get out of there. Monsters don't fight to the death - if they lose a bunch of hit points, or too many of their side die, they get out. It was kind of a surprise for the players the first time it happened, and they weren't prepared to stop it, but they eventually got to the point where they would be prepared to stop an escape if they needed the creatures dead, or accept that driving them off may be all that was necessary. I think milestone levelling helped, as no one was concerned that not killing meant not enough experience. With this firmly established, the players began to get the idea that sometimes, discretion is the better part of valor and it is Ok to not fight to the death every time.

    I also always allowed them to capture people if they tried for it, and to get information from their captives. They became used to the idea that sometimes, fights end with one side surrendering, or being knocked out, and that this did not mean the end of the story.

    From there, I let things play out. There was a city with a corrupt baron (this was the most recent version I've done, and the only one in 5e), who used prisoners as disposable mine workers, and had a whole bunch of unreasonable laws. When the PCs inevitably broke one of them (the laws were all spelled out in the town charter that they were given a copy of when they went through the gates, so they could have avoided it, but the laws were set up to make it incredibly difficult). When the guards attempted to arrest them, they probably could have won a fight with them, which would have led to them being branded outlaws, and I would have gone with a Robin Hood type story. Instead, the group surrendered, not wanting to kill a bunch of guards doing what they were ordered to do. So they went to the mine, met a bunch of prisoners who were already trying to break out through digging an escape tunnel, and joined in the escape attempt. The tunnel broke through into a cave system, and they had to work to get through it with picks and shovels - lots of uses of skills to try and avoid things, or use spells without material components, and so on. They made it out, and then snuck into the keep while sending one of the prisoners to the count for help. They found their gear, and ended up capturing the baron, and holding the keep. As some of the baron's knights began to attack, we played that for a bit, but the players were just holding on until help could arrive. The prisoner did reach the count, and the count sent some troops. With the PCs controlling the keep, and the count's troops closing in on them, the rest of the baron's forces stood down. The count himself stepped in, and threw the baron and most of his people into the mines to work. I went back and forth in my head as to whether they would get possession of the keep, and finally had a discussion with the players as to whether they wanted that type of campaign, and they decided they'd prefer to not be tied down there, and continued on their way.

    Maybe I have unusual players, but at no point did they seem to object to the idea that they were captured, or think it took away from their agency. It's a brutal world, with petty tyrants that may try to arrest you for doing things they don't like. As to the OP, where you blinded yourself rather than go along with the plot, I can't argue with not wanting to game with you again. He was absolutely railroading - no question. I probably would have exited the campaign, saying that it wasn't for me. But I don't think it makes a lot of sense for a character to blind themselves - in most RPG worlds I've played in, that's really no different from slitting ones own throat, and I can't see anyone cut out for adventuring choosing that course of action immediately. It sounds like a big personal FU to the DM, and the DM choosing to not play with the person that did that seems like a reasonable response. I have never been kicked out of a campaign, nor have I ever kicked someone else out. If I had been kicked out of multiple campaigns because of a dramatic action I took, I'd probably look at myself and try to figure out why the common denominator in these things was me. It might be that I am not doing a good job of establishing whether we are a good fit or not in the beginning.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Players come into games with certain expectations and ideas. Being captured removes their agency to do the things they expect to.

    Likewise, GMs often (not always) go into games wanting to tell "their story", and so need to coerce players into that.

    The solution is simple. Tell players what the game is about, and get their buy-in.

    If you're not expecting Descent to Avernus, and get coerced by the Flaming Fist, of course you're gonna be mad because that's not what you wanted to do. You've had choice removed.

    If you know you're playing Descent to Avernus, and get coerced, your thought process is just "oh, I guess this is the hook to get us going there. Cool." You already know you're heading in a specific direction that's planned, so why fight it?

    If you have a particular premise for a game, get buy-in from the players on the player level rather than coercing them into it in-game. It's the easiest thing to do and yields the best results.
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  20. - Top - End - #20
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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    One of the big motivating factors for players, and probably the main one for GMs, is "look at me". Look at the ideas I've come up with. Look at how I've implemented them. Be impressed, or amused, or something, but pay attention to me.

    When both the GM and the players have this desire, it can clash. Sometimes in a positive, collaborative way - the players riff off the GM and vice-versa, combining the ideas together and appreciating both of them. Sometimes in a negative way, fighting for the spotlight. Sometimes I have a hard time not reading "Those spoiled new-school players, too glued to what's on their character sheets and not paying enough attention to the situation" as "Don't look at that crap you made, look at this cool stuff I made!"

    A capture scenario often pushing things way more into the GM's court. Many PCs abilities will be un-usable, demonstrating their personality may just get them punished, and when they do break out it's often by GM-provided opportunities that they have to engage with as the GM intends. It can feel like "Ok, you clowns are paying too much attention to yourselves and not enough to me, so now you don't have a choice."

    It doesn't have to be like that - with the right characters, being imprisoned is a good way to demonstrate their personality and put them in the spotlight. Probably one reason these kind of scenarios work better as the start of a campaign with the players told up-front.

    "Look at me" isn't the only player motive, of course. But the others don't necessarily lend themselves to accepting imprisonment either. Personally I like the "explorer" stance when it suits the game, which is all about focusing on the world the GM presents, but (to me at least) it's also much more enjoyable with an IC mindset. Which is relevant because IC I don't have any reason to expect that foes competent enough to capture us are going to later be sloppy enough that we can break out. So "not getting captured in the first place" is really the best odds by far (I'd bet a lot more people successfully run from the cops than manage to break out of prison, for example).
    Last edited by icefractal; 2020-10-01 at 03:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    First of all, it's not generally true that players take extreme measures to resist or escape the plothook, or to derail the campaign. Most players are actually there to pick up the plothook and play out the campaign.

    If Frodo won't take the Ring to Mordor, there's no story.
    If Luke won't leave Tatooine to find the princess, there's no story.
    If Harry refuses to go to Hogwarts, there's no story.
    If D'Artagnan stays in Gascony, there's no story.
    If Bruce Wayne refuses to train to avenge his parents, there's no story.
    If Tony Stark doesn't build armor to escape with, there's no story.

    But you can generally count on it that Frodo will take the Ring, Luke will leave Tatooine, Harry will go to Hogwarts, D'Artagnan will go to Paris, Bruce Wayne will become the Batman, and Tony Stark will build the Iron Man suit.

    Because that's why those characters exist.

    That's why my PCs exist, too -- to play the game that the DM is running.

    But there are a couple of issues involved:

    A. Players do not like encounters in which they are already going to lose, regardless of what they do. A scenario in which they are captured or imprisoned is an encounter in which the DM has already decided what will happen, regardless of their actions or the dice. For that reason, I tend to put the PCs in the position to start the campaign directly, instead of running a capture encounter to do it. DMs: Never use an encounter that could prevent your own scenario.

    B. DMs feel that they have to strong-arm players into going on the adventures because there are players who take extreme measures to resist or escape the plothook, or to derail the campaign. Players: Never join a game and then try to resist, escape from, or derail the game.

    D&D is a co-operative venture. The DM agrees to create a scenario for the players, and the players agree to play in it. There's no other way for it to work. If a player or players successfully resist playing in the DM's game, then no game happens.

    The solution? Players need to have a DM that they trust to create a fun adventure, and then enter into the fun adventure. The DM needs players whom he or she can trust to play in the adventure, and then to focus on making it fun for the players.

    You will never know if your brother's scenario twenty years ago would have been fun. He tried to create a game for you, and you stopped it. If you wanted to play D&D at that time, then your action prevented it.

    If you didn't want to play that game of D&D, based on the knowledge you had at the time, then it would have been better to have simply said, "I don't want to play this scenario. I hope the rest of you have fun," and walked away from the game. There is nothing to be gained by (in your own words) "essentially ruining ... his plot".

    I have no history of any player ruining my plot or his own character. If I did, then I'd probably be tempted to react like your brother. I work hard to make a fun game for my players only because they like it and try to play it.

    I have certainly put PCs in difficult situations not of their choosing. In the last two games I ran, the players had to start as
    1. servants of traveling Wanderers, each of whom had a powerful but uncontrollable artifact, or
    2. Growing up in an isolated village, with no knowledge beyond the haunted forest that surrounded them.

    It would have been easy for players to break my plot. In the first case, all they had to do was not pick up the artifacts when their masters died in the second session. In the second case, they could just refuse to go with the caravans headed through the forest to market.

    In either case, the scenario I planned would have been over. But my players did not do that; they played the game.

    In the last three games I played,
    1. my ranger was required to escort a group of southern city-folk through the Blue Northern Forest.
    2. my gnome illusionist had to join a group investigating a missing shipment of honeymead, and
    3. my 2e thief/magic-user had to join a convoy off to explore and colonize a new continent.

    I, or any other player, could simply have said, "No. My PC doesn't do that." And all the DM's preparations for the game would have been useless.

    But we didn't. We actually played the games. And enjoyed them.

    The solution to the problem of players resisting the campaign is not to resist the campaign. The DM can help with that, by not using an encounter that requires the PCs to lose. But whether the DM makes that mistake or not, if the players won't play the campaign, then the campaign won't happen.

  22. - Top - End - #22
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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    You will never know if your brother's scenario twenty years ago would have been fun. He tried to create a game for you, and you stopped it. If you wanted to play D&D at that time, then your action prevented it.
    While I do agree that players need to work with the GMs plot just as the GM need to work with the players' characters, this interpretation is going too far, I think. Building an adventure that depend on railroading the PCs to get mind controlled and not being able to adapt to the reasonable reaction of trying to resist the mind control doesn't exactly scream "great GMing" to me.

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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    While I do agree that players need to work with the GMs plot just as the GM need to work with the players' characters, this interpretation is going too far, I think. Building an adventure that depend on railroading the PCs to get mind controlled and not being able to adapt to the reasonable reaction of trying to resist the mind control doesn't exactly scream "great GMing" to me.
    Your re-invention of what I said is certainly going too far. I made no comment about how good or bad the DMing was. I certainly never said it was “great DMing”.

    I said that that one player’s action prevented the D&D game from happening. That’s not an “interpretation”; it’s a simple fact.

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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    If you're not expecting Descent to Avernus, and get coerced by the Flaming Fist, of course you're gonna be mad because that's not what you wanted to do. You've had choice removed.

    If you know you're playing Descent to Avernus, and get coerced, your thought process is just "oh, I guess this is the hook to get us going there. Cool." You already know you're heading in a specific direction that's planned, so why fight it?
    IMO, trying to railroad the PCs like that is significantly more likely to derail the adventure.

    The thing is, a lot of people don't like being told what to do, either in or out of character.

    If the flaming fist just asked me to go on the mission I would, probably free of reward, but by threatening me they are making themselves my enemies, and getting revenge will be more pressing than actually goin on the adventure.

    Just like IRL I am likely to give money to a panhandler, but would probably stand my ground against a mugger (unless they were armed, in which case I would probably give them the money but immediately go to the police).

    Its the old "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar" thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    You will never know if your brother's scenario twenty years ago would have been fun. He tried to create a game for you, and you stopped it. If you wanted to play D&D at that time, then your action prevented it.

    If you didn't want to play that game of D&D, based on the knowledge you had at the time, then it would have been better to have simply said, "I don't want to play this scenario. I hope the rest of you have fun," and walked away from the game. There is nothing to be gained by (in your own words) "essentially ruining ... his plot".

    I have no history of any player ruining my plot or his own character. If I did, then I'd probably be tempted to react like your brother. I work hard to make a fun game for my players only because they like it and try to play it.
    At that point, the fun for me is in trying to thwart my captors. I get much more into the RP portion of the game.

    Now, as a person, the mature thing to do would have been to just put my desires aside, go along with the new DM and offer encouragement, and just enjoy the game as it was, but I wasn't mature, I was an emotionally troubled teenager.


    Thinking more about it, I had another experience where we were playing WoD and I was playing a mortal whose only supernatural power was immunity to mental effects (think Bella from Twilight). The very first encounter was against an enemy who had super mind control powers that ignored mind control immunity, and I immediately left the game. I was told that I was being a "bad player" and that a good gamer would just go along with the DM regardless, but I don't know, to me guilting someone into playing in an adventure where their only power is immediately nullified just seems like a **** waving contest that won't be fun for anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Because players generally expect to play a game where they are the heroes and the game is about them. Players are being told that RPGs are these special games in which they can do anything and their imagination is the only limit. That's generally how RPGs are pitched to people who never played them.

    Players have to be forced to go along with the GM's adventures because that's not what they were promised and what they signed up for. They want their characters to act like they want, not like the GM wants.

    The solution is to not run adventures that force the players to act in specific ways. Which is something almost no D&D adventure writer in the past 35-ish years understands.
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    Last edited by Talakeal; 2020-10-01 at 08:32 PM.
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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    IMO, trying to railroad the PCs like that is significantly more likely to derail the adventure.

    The thing is, a lot of people don't like being told what to do, either in or out of character.
    I don't mean to suggest coercing the players out of character.

    I'm suggesting something more like "hey, let's run Descent to Avernus!" rather than "we WILL run Descent to Avernus, and you WILL like it!"

    The second one is something I can't imagine going well.
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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Your re-invention of what I said is certainly going too far. I made no comment about how good or bad the DMing was. I certainly never said it was “great DMing”.

    I said that that one player’s action prevented the D&D game from happening. That’s not an “interpretation”; it’s a simple fact.
    Okay. fair enough. Let's stick to exactly what you said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    You will never know if your brother's scenario twenty years ago would have been fun. He tried to create a game for you, and you stopped it. If you wanted to play D&D at that time, then your action prevented it.
    Whether or not the scenario would have been fun, the GM tried to accomplish it by forcing the party to become mind controlled and when the OP tried to find a way around it (and avoiding having your mind controlled seems very reasonable to me, both in and out of character) the GM couldn't handle it. Summarizing that situation with "He tried to create a game for you, and you stopped it" seems rather unfair to me. Not to put words into your mouth again but by that logic any amount of railroading would be fine as long as it's with good intentions.

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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Just based on reading the OP:

    You shouldn't write an adventure with the assumption that X will happen or the PCs will do X. This includes getting them thrown in prison. It's a perfectly reasonable outcome of their actions and one more tables should consider, along with surrender. But making it a requirement in an adventure means you need a reason for players and characters to want to be arrested. If this is a one shot or the opening of a campaign, just have them start in captivity. You can discuss how they got there and they may want to know if they can get their equipment back, but don't try to play out their arrest with actual combat. Some players would rather their character die than be captured, even if that runs counter to all their other goals.

    As far as getting long-term pcs to want to be arrested, this is actually a decent place to draw on fiction. Consider some shows, books, or movies, where the only practical way to get to a particular individual is to infiltrate the prison community they're in. A slave revolt is even easier: if the players want to participate in a slave revolt, then it would be easier if they could actually communicate with the slaves. Consider also that in these sorts of stories it's often fairly easy to escape. At least for the main characters (PCs). But their other goals (free someone, kill someone, antagonize every military officer they can, etc.) are what actually trap them. These might not be "true" prison break scenarios, but they're generally easier to get long-term players on board with and the prison break part comes once they've fulfilled at least part of their task and must now make good their escape without being caught now that they've done X.
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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    I don't mean to suggest coercing the players out of character.

    I'm suggesting something more like "hey, let's run Descent to Avernus!" rather than "we WILL run Descent to Avernus, and you WILL like it!"

    The second one is something I can't imagine going well.
    Oh, no, that's not what I meant either.

    I meant most players, OOC, resent an NPC who tells their character what to do, and their character likely also resents that NPC IC.
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  29. - Top - End - #29
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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    That seems bizarre to me both in and out of character. Out of character, you know the DM is going to offer you the chance to escape, because otherwise the campaign would end. In character, fighting to the death when the enemy has you dead rights is just dumb, if you surrender you can always live to fight another day.
    Let's ignore out of character. If i am supposed to let my PC be captured for metagaming reasons, then the GM could just ask me out of game to do so and i would likely play along.

    For a surrender of the whole group in game to make sense you need several conditions :

    - The enemy must be overwhelmingly strong. If he is just somewhat stronger, then fighting retreat, breakthrough or even a prolonged siege look like more viable options than to be captured.
    - The enemy must have enough reason to want a capture to actually fight the PCs for it. Most kinds of conflicts don't give that. Usually an enemy want to have the PCs stuff or control of the position or the PCs far out of the way. All of that is easier for the PCs to agree to. PCs of prisoners instead of PCs on the run are not particularly worth much for most enemies. Unless they want to do unpleasent things to the PCs which brings us to the next reasons.
    - The enemy must be known to not want to do anything really nasty. If the enemy is out for revenge or a human sacrificing cult or anything like that PCs would likely sooner fight to death than surrender.
    The enemy must have blocked all pathes of escape. Otherwise running away is an option. And if you want to catch the whole group, you have to catch the fastest, stealthiest one with the supernatural movement powers. Otherwise you only get part of the group and probably a rescue story instead of an outbreak.

    In character, PCs know that prisoners hardly ever escape. Surrendering will bring whatever the enemy wants to do to you. Execution, slavery, mutilation, sacrifice, rape, torture, being eaten, whatever else. Depending only on what the enemy wants. Choosing surrender is choosing that. And you can't renege on your decision afterwards.


    Sure, there are groups where you would expect to be treated well as prisoner. But those groups would usually not take you prisoner for no good reason in the first place, especcially if the PCs are decent people. You could do that angle with "falsely accused of a crime" stories. But... i have seen a couple of those where the PCs surrendered and then refused to break out, trusting the justice system to do its job properly.

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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Just like most other scenarios in a game, prisoner stories are just fine.

    Several classic and very fun adventures have them.

    And - like all other scenarios in a game - they can be ruined by either the DM or players.

    It's not rocket science.

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