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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    Question: Why would an intelligent captor allow the captive to keep the means to escape capture? Even myconids would separate you from your gear. Inevitable probably have a strict process for removing the gear. If the Noble accepts the PCs at their word, either that word is binding or the noble was foolish. I believe "imprison people in an alternate dimension" is code for "the PCs have no power to escape normally, the DM will provide the means of escape".

    While there are exceptions, the vast majority of the time imprisonment = lose your gear.

    Which is why their answer to "Why is being a prisoner specifically is so bad?" was "You lose your gear and that is quite crippling."
    Which begs the further question. "Why is being crippled so bad?".

    Dealing with adversity is part of the fun of gaming and storytelling.

    If a character can literally not talk or think without an item, I can see that would be bad. But unless the only interaction a player expects to have with the game is "I swing my super magic sword" - it isn't really a problem.

    The last game in which I was a player ended up being Out of the Abyss. Going in to the game, nobody knew what the campaign would be. Nobody was asked if it was okay to start imprisoned. And it was perfectly fine. In fact, it was a roleplaying bonanza. We spent about a month and a half as prisoners of the Drow at the start of the game and enjoyed every minute of it.

    Later on, we ended up being caught and imprisoned again by Duergar. And again it was a great time. We had to figure out what the charges were against our party, discover how the "justice system" of that place worked, and navigate the social and political waters of the underdark city. Most of us never got back our gear that was lost with this second arrest. But a character isn't their gear. This was just another obstacle to deal with as we navigated the story of the game.

    At no point did our characters lose agency in the game. We were free to react to the situation however we liked. Sometimes the situation was dire, indeed. But that is how drama is created.

  2. - Top - End - #212
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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    Which is why their answer to "Why is being a prisoner specifically is so bad?" was "You lose your gear and that is quite crippling."

    Now you did then elaborate on why some systems can't actually remove gear and some systems don't use gear. However, I would warrant, those are also exceptions.
    Counter question on the first point: Why does having or lacking "gear", normally in D&D type games being a sword and armor, dictate someone's chances to escape imprisonment? Isn't the whole escape scenario as presented in media and games based on the premise of doing so without "normal gear"? Even in the much maligned D&D 5e OotA module my group managed an escape in less than a RL hour using nothing but a sharp rock and two broken manacles.

    So your contentions are that: 1) Loss of gear cripples the abilities of character and thus the fun of players, and is the only rational course of action for those taking prisoners. 2) In the majority of games characters are gear dependent to the point that lacking gear is lacking critical character oprions and abilities. Right?

    I don't have a ranked list of all pnp rpgs based on character gear dependence. I didn't find one with a quick search either. So I can't say if that's true by game system. It's probably true by games played, if only in the same way that the default web browser on a computer is the most used because people never go beyond the default option ven if there's better browsers. Since D&D is the major intro game and most people never go beyond that then most played games are heavily gear dependent.

  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    Counter question on the first point: Why does having or lacking "gear", normally in D&D type games being a sword and armor, dictate someone's chances to escape imprisonment? Isn't the whole escape scenario as presented in media and games based on the premise of doing so without "normal gear"? Even in the much maligned D&D 5e OotA module my group managed an escape in less than a RL hour using nothing but a sharp rock and two broken manacles.
    I think there's a sliding scale, and it's game-dependent.

    3e is highly highly highly gear dependent. And becomes exponentially more so at higher levels. So starting in prison is mildly inconveniencing at level 1, but being imprisoned at level 15 is brutal (at least if you don't conveniently find a gear box containing all your stuff right outside your cell). "Level appropriate" enemies assume that you've got WBL-appropriate gear, spellbooks, etc and will hard-stop you if you don't have the right counter-gear.

    5e is much less so, at all levels. While yes, if you go a long time without any real weapons or armor you get imbalances, you don't need epic super-mega sword of all-kill or ring of not dying to SoD effects just to maintain a game-appropriate baseline.
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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    I think there's a sliding scale, and it's game-dependent.

    3e is highly highly highly gear dependent. And becomes exponentially more so at higher levels. So starting in prison is mildly inconveniencing at level 1, but being imprisoned at level 15 is brutal (at least if you don't conveniently find a gear box containing all your stuff right outside your cell). "Level appropriate" enemies assume that you've got WBL-appropriate gear, spellbooks, etc and will hard-stop you if you don't have the right counter-gear.

    5e is much less so, at all levels. While yes, if you go a long time without any real weapons or armor you get imbalances, you don't need epic super-mega sword of all-kill or ring of not dying to SoD effects just to maintain a game-appropriate baseline.
    And then there’s things that get convoluted like cybernetics. Brings a new meaning to disarmed.
    If all rules are suggestions what happens when I pass the save?

  5. - Top - End - #215

    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    3e is highly gear dependent for martials and Wizards. Other characters operate just fine with minimal gear. All most spellcasters need is a generic "spell component pouch" which you can plausibly get from a guard.

  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by Democratus View Post
    Which begs the further question. "Why is being crippled so bad?".
    I believe the question is "Does the group want to explore the PCs being crippled?". Being crippled is a dramatic change in characterization, so it is wise to check in with the players. How much checking in is warranted scales with how dramatic the change is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Democratus View Post
    Dealing with adversity is part of the fun of gaming and storytelling.

    If a character can literally not talk or think without an item, I can see that would be bad. But unless the only interaction a player expects to have with the game is "I swing my super magic sword" - it isn't really a problem.
    Do remember it is not "an item" it is all items of relevance. Weapons, Armor, Tools, Supplies, Money, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Democratus View Post
    The last game in which I was a player ended up being Out of the Abyss. Going in to the game, nobody knew what the campaign would be. Nobody was asked if it was okay to start imprisoned. And it was perfectly fine. In fact, it was a roleplaying bonanza. We spent about a month and a half as prisoners of the Drow at the start of the game and enjoyed every minute of it.
    Nice. Now, what if one of the players was not okay with it? Or what if they would be okay with it, if and only if they had been told the premise of the campaign was starting as prisoners? Some DM advice is aimed at groups / DMs that are not as carefree as your group. The advice about checking in is to head off those unfortunate cases. That way other groups can have as great a time as our two groups do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Democratus View Post
    Later on, we ended up being caught and imprisoned again by Duergar.
    Based upon the reaction your group had to the opening (enjoying 1.5 months as prisoners) I predict they enjoyed this time too. ... Nice, they did have a good time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Democratus View Post
    At no point did our characters lose agency in the game. We were free to react to the situation however we liked. Sometimes the situation was dire, indeed. But that is how drama is created.
    Technically your characters did have decreased agency while captured. But the players were okay with that decrease and had a great time. That is the benefit of having good communication between players & DM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    Counter question on the first point: Why does having or lacking "gear", normally in D&D type games being a sword and armor, dictate someone's chances to escape imprisonment? Isn't the whole escape scenario as presented in media and games based on the premise of doing so without "normal gear"? Even in the much maligned D&D 5e OotA module my group managed an escape in less than a RL hour using nothing but a sharp rock and two broken manacles.
    Take a moment to think from the jailer's point of view. If you want to keep someone captive, you would remove anything that helped them escape. Now imagine OotA starting with the Rogue having thieves tools, the Wizard having their magic, and the Barbarian having their crowbar. Personally I imagine a Rogue having thieves tools would increase the chances to escape. Don't you? OotA was designed with the intent the PCs would escape, was calibrated with the guards holding the idiot ball, and included multiple ways to recoup or recover the lost gear. However even then you must admit the tools to escape would make it easier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    So your contentions are that: 1) Loss of gear cripples the abilities of character and thus the fun of players, and is the only rational course of action for those taking prisoners. 2) In the majority of games characters are gear dependent to the point that lacking gear is lacking critical character options and abilities. Right?
    That is more than what I said (not much more, but still more). I said
    1) Assuming the captors are rational, they will generally remove all useful gear, and gear is generally useful in escape attempts.
    2) That loss of gear is generally quite crippling to escape attempts (again assuming rational captors).
    3) This means becoming captured is usually a severely bad thing happening to the PC.

    4) Person A made a post. Person B replied. You replied to Person B. I replied to you, clarifying Person B's answer to Person A. With that additional clarification, you might see Person B's reply to Person A in a new light. There are limitations to my ability to clarify (I can't read minds), please consult Person B.

    However I would add that my responses to Democratus in this same post might be of interest to you. One highlight is that communication is good and prison scenarios are not inherently bad. But players might have negative reactions to prison scenarios, so communication is a good way to avoid those negative reactions.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2020-10-28 at 03:36 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    4) Person A made a post. Person B replied. You replied to Person B. I replied to you, clarifying Person B's answer to Person A. With that additional clarification, you might see Person B's reply to Person A in a new light. There are limitations to my ability to clarify (I can't read minds), please consult Person B.

    However I would add that my responses to Democratus in this same post might be of interest to you. One highlight is that communication is good and prison scenarios are not inherently bad. But players might have negative reactions to prison scenarios, so communication is a good way to avoid those negative reactions.
    #4 is just the nature of forums, although probably not helped that I have to use my phone for all this.

    I think were generally on the same wavelength. However I believe you're making some assumptions that I don't make, beyond just the D&Dism "gear = 4/5th of you character" thing. Those being that the captors/jailers are motivated to completely incapacitate their prisoners, capable of finding all the stuff, expecting immedate or constant escape attempts, respect the prisoner's abilities, can't trust the prisoners for anything, and have a nice secure place to put them. To be sure that's a rational and intelligent thing to do, pretty much what modern jailing looks like. It's jusy not my set of default assumptions for all games and scenarios.

    As for OotA... Well, I called it much maligned for a reason. We had a new dm who didn't know to tell us lots stuff, use heavy handed cut scenes to provide info, and ran it as "by the book" as possible. We started with our characters having been stuffed in the starting cell literally less than an hour ago and we were out rampaging in another two hours. Everywhere we could we cut every rope, broke every bridge, set as much as possible on fire, and pushed npcs between us and the drow. Of course the party was 2 bards, cleric, warlock, and druid, because we know how D&D treats beatstick classes.

  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    #4 is just the nature of forums, although probably not helped that I have to use my phone for all this.
    Very true. I was just making sure the identities were clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    I think were generally on the same wavelength. However I believe you're making some assumptions that I don't make, beyond just the D&Dism "gear = 4/5th of you character" thing. Those being that the captors/jailers are motivated to completely incapacitate their prisoners, capable of finding all the stuff, expecting immedate or constant escape attempts, respect the prisoner's abilities, can't trust the prisoners for anything, and have a nice secure place to put them. To be sure that's a rational and intelligent thing to do, pretty much what modern jailing looks like. It's jusy not my set of default assumptions for all games and scenarios.
    That is an exaggeration of my position, so we are probably on an even more similar wavelength.

    I am not assuming gear = 4/5th of the character, but I am assuming that without tools the rogue would be at disadvantage for unlocking the way, the wizard would (actually, let's skip the wizard since D&D hits them hard), the barbarian would be at relative disadvantage for breaking out (leverage from a crowbar is nice), and be less capable of taking down the guards (sharp rock vs greataxe). Once they have escaped, they will be lacking supplies (including food/water) and still be ill equipped to escape pursuit. It will take awhile for them to completely recover. So capable but crippled. (Sort of what OotA was looking for?)

    The jailers are motivated to prevent the prisoners from escaping. That is different from completely incapacitating the prisoners. See a modern prison for examples.

    The jailers are motivated to find all the stuff, but are not necessarily capable. They do have an advantage because lots of the resources are in plain sight. However maybe the Rogue might smuggle some tools in the Barbarian's stomach. Generally the vast majority of items will be detected.

    The jailers are not necessarily going to expect immediate or constant escape attempts. But they would plan for how to detect, prevent, and interrupt escape attempts.

    I made no abnormal assumptions about trust. The only time I commented on it was in your example where the Noble uses the power of the PC's word to keep the imprisoned. That is excessively trusting. If the trust is well placed, then that is a stronger prison than one made of iron. If the trust was foolishly placed, then that is a weaker prison than one made of wet tissue. For a more normal situation I would expect the jailer to cautiously trust the captives in some areas, but not in areas where they see the captor - captive dynamic as incentivizing the captive to fool the captor.

    I am assuming the captors have a secure place to put the captives. That seems a good preparation before going out and capturing someone. What that looks like can vary based on circumstances.

    Now those are my expectations at 10 Int 10 Wis. Your exaggeration sounds like a very very paranoid 14 Int 14 Wis. For captors with lower mental abilities. They might make severe mistakes.

    Now is this a decent default assumption for games and scenarios? Well, I would suggest the DM communicate with the players, but Person A (initial context) is adverse to that suggestion. So in the absence of communication, I think it is reasonable to expect captors to behave to their mental abilities rather than presume the DM will inject the Idiot Ball or Deus Ex Machina. If in the presence of DM & Player communication, then see that communication for a better default assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    As for OotA... Well, I called it much maligned for a reason. We had a new dm who didn't know to tell us lots stuff, use heavy handed cut scenes to provide info, and ran it as "by the book" as possible. We started with our characters having been stuffed in the starting cell literally less than an hour ago and we were out rampaging in another two hours. Everywhere we could we cut every rope, broke every bridge, set as much as possible on fire, and pushed npcs between us and the drow. Of course the party was 2 bards, cleric, warlock, and druid, because we know how D&D treats beatstick classes.
    I also went through OotA. One of the newer players want to try DMing. I forget the exact composition but I believe it was Wizard, 2 Rogues (played as fistful of d6 rather than skill monkey), a Cleric, and a Fighter. We started in the cells. We had been captured in the past month, but not the past hour.

    The cell was laughable to escape from. The guards were weak compared to unarmed PCs. We recovered our gear and fled down the tunnel. So far lots of idiot ball shenanigans, but we had been told we would get our gear back (this was AL), so it met my expectations for WotC AL adventure content.

    Then there was the tunnel. Imagine trying to escape from drow slavers by running into the maze of tunnels that is the underdark. Only for everyone, including the DM to be surprised at how railroaded that tunnel is and for how long.

    So while OotA is maligned, it is a bit better than its reputation. Especially since it encourages the DM and the players to communicate about the start and get player buy in.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2020-10-28 at 08:05 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #219
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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    I also went through OotA. ...
    The cell was laughable to escape from. The guards were weak compared to unarmed PCs. We recovered our gear and fled down the tunnel. So far lots of idiot ball shenanigans, but we had been told we would get our gear back (this was AL), so it met my expectations for WotC AL adventure content.
    That's interesting. It sounds like it changed at some point. We were at 2nd and our guards were 5 hd with 16+ ac and two attacks, not pushovers by any means. There was some drow cleric with a tentacle thing who upcast a spell to 4th level, one of the npcs we'd been shoving out bit it. That's when got serious about cutting all the bridges (got good timing to drop her into some pool way below) and setting everything on fire. Never did get any gear except what we looted but that was ok since 1st level starting gear is pretty low end anyways.

    And yeah, after that it got amazingly railroady until we went into combat as war mode and broke the dm. Poor guy.

    Any ways, I think I may have a slightly more lenient view on taking PCs prisoners since I generally run things sandboxy, track reputation, ransom & parole can be a thing with the more honorable npcs, and especially important... I don't run D&D or faux medeval fantasy if at all possible. It's amazing how little fuss players make when there are lawyers and rules that they recognize, and any "gear" either has limited plot immunity or isn't required for the characters to work.

    Come to think of it though... all my captures have been by legit law enforcement with the PCs seriously flubbing something blatantly illegal, often on camera. Even when they're supposed to be the heroes. But that's maybe more the players than anything. I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    That's interesting. It sounds like it changed at some point.
    Memories are imperfect. I think that is what happened. Although I guess the action economy can be a powerful force.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    Any ways, I think I may have a slightly more lenient view on taking PCs prisoners since I generally run things sandboxy, track reputation, ransom & parole can be a thing with the more honorable npcs, and especially important... I don't run D&D or faux medeval fantasy if at all possible. It's amazing how little fuss players make when there are lawyers and rules that they recognize, and any "gear" either has limited plot immunity or isn't required for the characters to work.
    Honestly, this sounds like another positive example of that DM & Player communication thing I was harping on about. With communication you can set expectations and get player buy in. (Or identify issues to work around / avoid).

    Understanding why a player might have a negative reaction matters more when the communication is not happening. Partially because it helps the stubborn DM realize why the missing communication is so important. (For more I would have to defer back to Person B replying to Person A).

    This is also why my "view" on taking PCs prisoner has been mostly descriptive instead of prescriptive.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2020-10-29 at 01:29 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #221
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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    That's all very specific to D&D and it makes assumptions about the nature of the enemies, culture, and ......
    Uhh... its not D&D specific, its "basically any game with a shred of versimilitude" specific. When you're captured as a prisoner of "war" or arrested by the police they don't allow you to take your gun into prison with you.

    It entirely defeats the point of incarceration to permit a person to carry whatever they want into prison with them, because siezing a prisoners equipment isn't about taking it for yourself, its about preventing them from escaping or hurting themselves.



    The only real D&D specific thing I observed is that about half or more of the game becomes literally unable to use their class abilities without one or more specific pieces of equipment, which can for some classes be practically unreplaceable.


    But the point still generally stands. You're almost always better disengaging and retreating than surrendering. Even if you have to retreat all the way back to friendly territory, you get to make that journey as fully armed as you planned to be if you were succeeding and you don't have to rebuy all your things on return to friendly lines. If you had surrendered, you would be making the same journey without the benefit of your equipment. You will basically never make the return to friendly lines in a better state after being captured and escaping incarceration than after disengaging and retreating.



    All of the times my PC's laid down their arms it was only part of the party with the expectation that the remainder effect a speedy rescue with a swift counterattack before they could be transferred out of the operational area.
    Last edited by LordCdrMilitant; 2020-10-29 at 06:33 AM.
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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    Come to think of it though... all my captures have been by legit law enforcement with the PCs seriously flubbing something blatantly illegal, often on camera. Even when they're supposed to be the heroes. But that's maybe more the players than anything. I think.
    Most people have said, if it comes organically from play, it is less of a problem. If players have earned their defeat, they are more likely to take it than when railroaded into it.

    Also many groups don't have quarrels with law enforcement particularly often. And while be "surrendering to police" might sound somewhat safe, "surrendering to the tribe of hungry ogers", "surrendering to the Not-Zerg that have surrounded you" or "surrendering to the evil apocalypse cult with human sacrifice tradition" might be somewhat less enticing. There are many situations where even rational characters might likely choose to fight to an inevitable death.

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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Quote Originally Posted by Satinavian View Post
    Most people have said, if it comes organically from play, it is less of a problem. If players have earned their defeat, they are more likely to take it than when railroaded into it.
    Yeah, I was one of them in the first couple pages.

    Part of the thing that's supposed to make apocalypse cults, zergy undead, and others a threat/horror story, is that that don't take prisoners and can't be reasoned with. It's a factor that goes into making them "scary big threat" type enemies. Thing is, that's supposed to be a rare occurance.

    I'm starting to wonder if hit point and damage inflation might not tie into hard line opposition (very vary few people are actually in that camp) to surrender & prisoners. Take a game like Call of Cthulhu, nobody (people, not monsters) ever really goes beyond the normal human range of toughness and a few good punches by someone strong can k.o. a guard. A nice crit shank with a shiv could one shot some guards. D&D though gets weird, guards could have 40+ hp and most people would throw 1 - 3 damage punches at any level, strangulation and wrestling don't generally work, and of course the first thing jailers need to do is shut down all casting. Parties that aren't, say, 12th+ level or such may be basically incapable of effectively fighting a guard or two.

    Does anyone know of other games than D&D/PF & knock-offs that has serious hp & damage inflation that isn't a supers game*? I'm wondering how capture & prison scenarios would run in those.

    * Supers games run differently, have less crippling gear reliance, the guards are mooks, etc., etc. Thus they don't seem to run into these issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    I'm starting to wonder if hit point and damage inflation might not tie into hard line opposition (very vary few people are actually in that camp) to surrender & prisoners. Take a game like Call of Cthulhu, nobody (people, not monsters) ever really goes beyond the normal human range of toughness and a few good punches by someone strong can k.o. a guard. A nice crit shank with a shiv could one shot some guards. D&D though gets weird, guards could have 40+ hp and most people would throw 1 - 3 damage punches at any level, strangulation and wrestling don't generally work, and of course the first thing jailers need to do is shut down all casting. Parties that aren't, say, 12th+ level or such may be basically incapable of effectively fighting a guard or two.
    Aside: I respect your opening qualifier.


    This is an interesting question. I don't have an answer but I wanted to expand it a bit. There are 4 cases:
    NPCs are hardy or they are not
    PCs are hardy or they are not

    Mentally I am using 1st level D&D and 5th level D&D as mental models.
    In games where the NPCs are hardy and the PCs are not, capture might be a game over.
    In games where both are fragile, then the PCs have to be careful because the odds are against them. However escapes can be quick.
    In games where both are hardy, the PCs have to be careful AND alarms are almost guaranteed.
    In games where the PCs are hardy and the NPCs are not, the PCs can escape on a whim.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2020-10-29 at 10:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satinavian View Post
    There are many situations where even rational characters might likely choose to fight to an inevitable death.
    ... or retreat.
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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    If retreat is an option, you won't even consider a surrender.

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    Default Re: Musings about PCs and Prisoners

    Your players might be more okay with being captured if it happens in a "fail forward" sort of way.

    To start with, I wouldn't force it. I'd just let the party locate the BBEG's headquarters when they're not powerful enough to have much of a chance. If they win anyway, fantastic! I'd congratulate them and begin planning the next adventure. The most likely result, however, is a TPK, where "K" stands for "knockout" instead of "kill". Why would the villains not kill them? Because the BBEG likes their tenacity and skill and wants to recruit them. So the BBEG explains his whole evil plan, accidentally letting slip some information that the party can use to defeat him ("It's not your fault you lost. You couldn't have known that my sole weakness is the blossom of the rare Macguffin Plant that only grows in the swamps of Questination."), then offers to make them his lieutenants. If they refuse, he locks them in some sort of deathtrap and goes off to he attend to the furtherance of his plans. "Sorry that I can't stay to watch your demise, but my destiny awaits!"

    Is it corny? Of course it is! But it turns being captured from a net negative into a positive: once the party escapes the trap, they have gained some important information that might make it possible to defeat the BBEG the next time they meet. And it's an instantly recognizable trope that lets the players know that I don't intend for them to be prisoners for very long.

    If you really want to do a longer term prisoner story, I think the players will be more likely to be on board after you've pulled this one off once or twice and gotten them used to the idea that being captured isn't necessarily a bad thing.
    Last edited by JoeJ; 2020-11-01 at 06:20 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJ View Post
    Your players might be more okay with being captured if it happens in a "fail forward" sort of way.

    To start with, I wouldn't force it. I'd just let the party locate the BBEG's headquarters when they're not powerful enough to have much of a chance. If they win anyway, fantastic! I'd congratulate them and begin planning the next adventure. The most likely result, however, is a TPK, where "K" stands for "knockout" instead of "kill". Why would the villains not kill them? Because the BBEG likes their tenacity and skill and wants to recruit them. So the BBEG explains his whole evil plan, accidentally letting slip some information that the party can use to defeat him ("It's not your fault you lost. You couldn't have known that my sole weakness is the blossom of the rare Macguffin Plant that only grows in the swamps of Questination."), then offers to make them his lieutenants. If they refuse, he locks them in some sort of deathtrap and goes off to he attend to the furtherance of his plans. "Sorry that I can't stay to watch your demise, but my destiny awaits!"

    Is it corny? Of course it is! But it turns being captured from a net negative into a positive: once the party escapes the trap, they have gained some important information that might make it possible to defeat the BBEG the next time they meet. And it's an instantly recognizable trope that lets the players know that I don't intend for them to be prisoners for very long.

    If you really want to do a longer term prisoner story, I think the players will be more likely to be on board after you've pulled this one off once or twice and gotten them used to the idea that being captured isn't necessarily a bad thing.
    Once played a game where we wanted to rescue people kidnapped by goblins, but we had no idea where they were taken. Meanwhile we fought some goblins, but it was a TPK honestly but unfortunately happened. However, the goblins were under orders so they didn't really kill us. They took us prisoner to where they took everyone we wanted to rescue, so we found their lair anyway and then escaped rescuing everyone. It was our plan all along. That's out story, and we're sticking to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    "Level appropriate" enemies assume that you've got WBL-appropriate gear, spellbooks, etc and will hard-stop you if you don't have the right counter-gear.
    That's true. But your GM should be taking that into account when they design the fight. Level appropriate Tucker's Kobolds are not the same level the book will say.
    A bow dependent party will suffer on a windy day, while a party who are light on metal will find a rust monster a pretty easy fight.

    So an unequipped party (maybe they were prisoners, maybe they were just at a party) will need the difficulty dialed back a bit. Why is that a problem?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duff View Post
    That's true. But your GM should be taking that into account when they design the fight. Level appropriate Tucker's Kobolds are not the same level the book will say.
    A bow dependent party will suffer on a windy day, while a party who are light on metal will find a rust monster a pretty easy fight.

    So an unequipped party (maybe they were prisoners, maybe they were just at a party) will need the difficulty dialed back a bit. Why is that a problem?
    At least in my understanding of 3e, a severely-below WBL party in anything but the first few levels is in a weird spot. If you build encounters to what they should have by WBL standards, they get destroyed because the game math assumes that gear scales with level. If you rescale for the no-WBL, some classes are way above the cuve (eschew materials means spellcasters are mostly at par) while others are struggling. So you make the pre-existing disparities even worse. And then you run into the problem--

    if these people could capture a group of full-powered heroes with all their gear....why are they so weak now?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordCdrMilitant View Post

    It entirely defeats the point of incarceration to permit a person to carry whatever they want into prison with them, because siezing a prisoners equipment isn't about taking it for yourself, its about preventing them from escaping or hurting themselves.

    I get a laugh about this in Star Wars The Old Republic. In one of the planet stories you are given the Light Side option of letting yourself be taken prisoner in exchange for the bad guy releasing captured citizens. You know you'll be freed soon after else the game is over, but you go with it. The dopiness is you get to keep your weapon, whether it be a light saber or blaster. You need it for game play, but it makes no sense in story why you keep your weapon. It's only your word you won't try to escape? The former captured citizens immediate break you out anyway, and having your weapon you fight along side them against your guards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    I get a laugh about this in Star Wars The Old Republic. In one of the planet stories you are given the Light Side option of letting yourself be taken prisoner in exchange for the bad guy releasing captured citizens. You know you'll be freed soon after else the game is over, but you go with it. The dopiness is you get to keep your weapon, whether it be a light saber or blaster. You need it for game play, but it makes no sense in story why you keep your weapon. It's only your word you won't try to escape? The former captured citizens immediate break you out anyway, and having your weapon you fight along side them against your guards.
    Lets be honest, even without your weapon, any force user in that situation would wreck their opponents, and you are a jedi in that case and hence supposed to be "my Word Is Gold" during a galactic war....why again? ^^
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    Lets be honest, even without your weapon, any force user in that situation would wreck their opponents, and you are a jedi in that case and hence supposed to be "my Word Is Gold" during a galactic war....why again? ^^
    Except you're not necessarily a Jedi in that game. Or a force user.
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    Ashoka lightsabers are taken away when she's detained on Coruscant, and on Lola Saylu the jedi master they rescue has to be given one by Obi Wan, so there's definite a precedent for disarming the Jedi and it is just stupid to throw a Jedi in prison without removing her/his lightsaber.

    That said, Ashoka escapes the gang in season 7, she's able to escape the prison using only the force, though to be fair, they didn't know she was a Jedi when they detained her.
    Last edited by LordCdrMilitant; 2020-11-04 at 12:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    So, my question is, why do so many DMs, especially new DMs, need to strong arm players into going along with their adventures?

    Likewise, why are players so utterly afraid of allowing themselves to be captured and taken prisoner?

    Is there any right way to run a jailbreak / slave revolt scenario?
    Most DMs, like most people sadly, have the default belief that tyranny and force are the best way to do things.

    Again, this is a natural reaction. Plus it is seen as no fun.

    Yes.

    The prisoner problem your talking about is more of a game problem, and it's simply that many GMs don't have the will or ability or skill to take the game to the next level.

    The vast majority of players will have their characters fight to the death by default. But if you remove the fight, well, then they can't fight to the death.

    And many games make it hard for a character to die, and D&D is no exception. The PC might be disabled and unconscious at -2 hit points, but they are not dead. The PC can be captured and saved and brought back to living.

    And if a foe really, truly wants to capture anyone, the D&D rules are full of ways to do this. Traps, items, spells, and all sorts of magic and more. PCs can't fight to the death if they are magically turned to stone.

    Plus there might be dozens of reasons a group of PC does not put up a fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Except you're not necessarily a Jedi in that game. Or a force user.
    What, there are People NOT palying jedi when playing Republic?!

    No Way!!















    ^^ Of course you are correct in that this quest is a fully republic wide one, still the galaxies smartest smuggler and an absolute Elitee Special Forces guy would have easy play with just a hidden butter knife and some semi-empty can of Coffe whitener.
    Last edited by GrayDeath; 2020-11-04 at 02:31 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    if these people could capture a group of full-powered heroes with all their gear....why are they so weak now?
    That's actually pretty easy - The party are weaker, so the guards on the cell need not be a strong as the force used to capture them and most organisations that keep prisoners have an interest in efficient use of resources.

    But you do raise a valid point - for an escape to be plausible, the captors need to have made a mistake: Maybe underestimated the abilities of the PCs, maybe underestimating their willingness to fight. Clever PCs can make that happen. The tricky monk who's allowed themself to be mistaken for a badly equipped fighter stands front and centre here (or would if they weren't bouncing off the walls on the way up to the guard tower already...)
    Or the captors don't have a choice - at the crucial moment they simply don't have enough resources to do everything so they pull guards elsewhere and hope they can get the prisoner situation under control again later


    As to the in-party balance - A prison escape also offers GMs plenty of option to shape the challenge to allow everyone their moment - anti-magic cuffs which are harder to remove than normal chains. More encounters than go into a normal day, clusters of guards that need to be fireballed, but then the mage is out of fireballs, heal spells all used up because healing the prisoners in the infirmary is part of the plan...
    But if your GM doesn't have the skills and willingness to do that, does it matter? If you're playing D&D 3e, you've signed up for a bit of power gap anyway, so what if it's even more obvious for this part of the adventure? If the players care about balance very much at all, presumably the GM can give those who aren't winning the escape some spotlight later in the game
    And of course, that isn't an issue in groups where balance between classes isn't something they care about.

    So to summarise, if it's an issue the GM should be managing it, in a prison escape as much as the rest of the game.
    Last edited by Duff; 2020-11-04 at 06:08 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duff View Post
    That's actually pretty easy - The party are weaker, so the guards on the cell need not be a strong as the force used to capture them and most organisations that keep prisoners have an interest in efficient use of resources.

    But you do raise a valid point - for an escape to be plausible, the captors need to have made a mistake: Maybe underestimated the abilities of the PCs, maybe underestimating their willingness to fight. Clever PCs can make that happen
    Or the captors don't have a choice - at the crucial moment they simply don't have enough resources to do everything so they pull guards elsewhere and hope they can get the prisoner situation under control again later
    For me, that would take expert DM telegraphing skills to make it feel like the enemies weren't holding the idiot ball. Too easy to seem purely fortuitous, in the "dm fiat" sense. They just "happened" to come under pressure. Etc.

    Not impossible, but not easy to do right.

    But then again, I'm not the type to blow up a game over this sort of thing in the first place. It might make me roll my eyes, but that's about it.
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    Sorry for the lack of replies the last few weeks, I have been unwell and was hospitalized.

    Don't have anything concrete to add, but I was thinking that maybe some of the divergent opinions might have something to do with the "old school / new school" divide that alleges that old school players look to themselves for agency while new school players look to their character sheets. I don't really buy it, but the idea of having a character taken prisoner or suffer a set back might feel like a sharp loss of agency to some people because it curtails the number of options on their sheet. Just a thought.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Sorry for the lack of replies the last few weeks, I have been unwell and was hospitalized.

    Don't have anything concrete to add, but I was thinking that maybe some of the divergent opinions might have something to do with the "old school / new school" divide that alleges that old school players look to themselves for agency while new school players look to their character sheets. I don't really buy it, but the idea of having a character taken prisoner or suffer a set back might feel like a sharp loss of agency to some people because it curtails the number of options on their sheet. Just a thought.
    Being taken prisoner is a sharp loss of agency. That's what imprisonment definitionally is - a drastic limitation on one's freedom.

    The simple reality is that viable escape scenarios - from a marginally competent enemy without help from someone on the inside - are extremely rare. This is doubly true when considered in any sort of short timeframe, as most complex prison escape scenarios involve weeks or months of planning and they still usually fail or result in very short-term recapture.

    People who surrender in war don't expect to escape. They expect that they'll either be imprisoned for the duration of the war and then released or amnestied when it concludes, or that they'll be exchanged for prisoners taken by their side. The mostly likely outcome of someone being taken prisoner in battle, really, is that you cut to 'six months later' immediately thereafter. And there are campaign narratives where that's a perfectly acceptable outcome. If your party is just a freelance mercenary band fighting small scale conflicts in not-Europe with a side of occasional monster slaying, being out of the game for a little while isn't a big deal. It's only a problem when you're trying to halt world-ending threats right now that imprisonment becomes such a huge problem.
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