1v1 with a demilich

[Littlemike137]

So I’m trying to figure out which class, and at what level, any particular character could solo a fight with a demilich, assuming no magic items or such, for no particular reason other than a thought experiment. I’m leaning towards either monk or paladin, simply because of their strong resistances against saving throws at higher levels, monks from diamond soul and paladins from their auras. As it stands, without number crunching at all yet, my guess would be a monk should be able to win at lvl 18, and should win for sure at 20, simply due to being almost impossible to hit and dealing 80 damage in a round or two. Paladins seem to be in the same state, hit the lich with a couple maxed divine smites, and it does fast, the lvl 20 abilities would make this a cake walk. Any further thoughts or if anyone wants to run the numbers, feel free.

[MaxWilson]

So I’m trying to figure out which class, and at what level, any particular character could solo a fight with a demilich, assuming no magic items or such, for no particular reason other than a thought experiment. I’m leaning towards either monk or paladin, simply because of their strong resistances against saving throws at higher levels, monks from diamond soul and paladins from their auras. As it stands, without number crunching at all yet, my guess would be a monk should be able to win at lvl 18, and should win for sure at 20, simply due to being almost impossible to hit and dealing 80 damage in a round or two. Paladins seem to be in the same state, hit the lich with a couple maxed divine smites, and it does fast, the lvl 20 abilities would make this a cake walk. Any further thoughts or if anyone wants to run the numbers, feel free.

What's the scenario? I see no reason a first-level Mobile wizard couldn't kill a demilich with Expeditious Retreat under the right conditions. It has crummy range on all its attacks and can be kited to death with Fire Bolt. But also, why wouldn't it flee instead of letting itself be kited? Hence the need for a scenario to know why and where they are fighting.

[ThatoneGuy84]

Almost all Demi-Lich abilities require it to be within 30 FT.

Assuming 1v1 actually weakens it, because it can't get as much use of its legendary Actions.

Its mobility (30) and Legendary action move (15) means it will have considerable difficulty getting most of this stuff off if the person is kiting. Allowing for a much more lower level char to win in an open area.

That being said, in a 30 ft locked cages match, I'd much rather be a paladin then most other classes.

With low HP (80) Demi lich actually goes down relatively fast in 1v1 (because it can't siphon life from multiple creatures.)

[Unoriginal]

Also needs to establish if the fight is happening in the Demilich's lair or not.

Almost all Demi-Lich abilities require it to be within 30 FT.

Assuming 1v1 actually weakens it, because it can't get as much use of its legendary Actions.

Its mobility (30) and Legendary action move (15) means it will have considerable difficulty getting most of this stuff off if the person is kiting. Allowing for a much more lower level char to win in an open area.

75ft of max move per round (Dash+15ft) + 30ft of range does help dealing with the kiting, though

[Eldariel]

Well, a Wizard of level 13 should be able to trivially obliterate it under most circumstances. Simulacrum > Wall of Force + Wall of Light or Sickening Radiance or whatever > dead Demilich (eventually). Or you can just nuke it but this is safer since you don't need to roll any checks and once LoE is broken it can't really do much beyond Howl and Energy Drain/Vile Curse. Worst case scenario if you're locked within 30' of it, you can Deafness yourself [provided the DM allows failing saving throws] and your Simulacrum the turn after (though on level 13, you probably have 16 Con and Res: Con so your Constitution saves aren't actually that bad; +8ish or so but of course you probably don't want to take the chance more than once). Lucky would make it highly unlikely that you'd die. If LoE is broken, all it can do is Vile Curse you which doesn't do anything alone. Of course, since it has a Legendary Action to fly, to stove it you'd need to either:
1. Trap it with an incomplete sphere first, then drop the DoT, then have the caster of the first Wall recast it.
2. Have the first caster ready an action to cast on the second caster casting.

Overall, it seems to be beatable with basically the same tactic as basically everything else in the MM.

EDIT: In Lair you'd need to break LoS somehow to avoid the AMF nonsense with e.g. Pyrotechnics.

Far as nuking it goes, it shouldn't be terribly hard with Nuclear Wizard. Hexblade 1/Evoker 10 can use Hexblade's Curse and fire a 5th level slot Magic Missile for 7 darts of automatic Force damage with +5 Int and +4 Proficiency for 1d4+10 each at 7d4+70 which is almost guaranteed to kill it (~99,8% for 7d4 to deal 80+ damage)

[Vorpalchicken]

Note the monk would have to do 160 damage since it is resistant to magical weapon damage. A squirrely interpretation might even be that the monk can do no unarmed damage since the demilich is immune to non magical weapon attacks but merely resistant to magical *weapons* (Using the logic that unarmed strikes are melee weapon attacks but *not* attacks with a melee weapon.)

[MaxWilson]

Also needs to establish if the fight is happening in the Demilich's lair or not.



75ft of max move per round (Dash+15ft) + 30ft of range does help dealing with the kiting, though

A first-level Mobile wizard or warlock with Expeditious Retreat has 80' of movement per round though, plus an extra Dash for 40' more if needed.

Note the monk would have to do 160 damage since it is resistant to magical weapon damage. A squirrely interpretation might even be that the monk can do no unarmed damage since the demilich is immune to non magical weapon attacks but merely resistant to magical *weapons* (Using the logic that unarmed strikes are melee weapon attacks but *not* attacks with a melee weapon.)

The squirrely interpretation implies the opposite: monk does full damage because the demilich is neither immune nor resistant to Ki-Empowered Strikes, which count as neither nonmagical attacks nor magical weapons.

[JackPhoenix]

Note the monk would have to do 160 damage since it is resistant to magical weapon damage. A squirrely interpretation might even be that the monk can do no unarmed damage since the demilich is immune to non magical weapon attacks but merely resistant to magical *weapons* (Using the logic that unarmed strikes are melee weapon attacks but *not* attacks with a melee weapon.)

Which actually means the opposite: the monk does full damage. Monk's unarmed strike is magical after level 6, so the attacks ignore the immunity, but it's not a weapon, so the resistance does not apply.

[Vorpalchicken]

The demilich is specifically immune to damage from "necrotic, poison, psychic; bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical attacks" but resistant to "bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from magic weapons"
So RAW that's no damage. And a good reason to not always follow RAW

[Unoriginal]

The demilich is specifically immune to damage from "necrotic, poison, psychic; bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical attacks" but resistant to "bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from magic weapons"
So RAW that's no damage. And a good reason to not always follow RAW

Except that the monk's "unarmed strikes count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage."

The monk's unarmed strikes in consequences bypass the immunity, but since "resistance from magical weapons" explicitly *isn't* "overcoming resistance [...] to nonmagical attacks and damage", the Demilich's resistance doesn't apply either.

In other words by RAW the monk's strikes do the full damage.

There are many reasons to not follow RAW (chief among them being "I prefer my rule"), but this isn't one of them.

[Vorpalchicken]

Ok I admit I got this backwards. But if anyone thinks it is a good idea to follow this RAW, somehow reasoning that a demilich is susceptible to monk fists when they are resistant to all magic weapons should indeed find a very good reason to not follow RAW in this instance.

edit- I am probably typing this too late at night. I can't seem to string a sentence together. But I am going to conclude by saying that I hope to hell that sixth edition doesn't require any such parsing of "attacks with a weapon" versus "weapon attacks."

[Deathtongue]

1.) Get earplugs. You don't need this if you're doing step 2, but it's still a good idea if you want to take down the Demilich the risky way of laying into it with HP damage.

2.) Conjure Animals / Wish (Animal Shapes) + Animate Dead / Animal Shapes + Some form of non-concentration minionmancy, all shoot webbing at the Demilich. Proceed to laugh at it as it literally can't do anything about being repeatedly webbed, so long as you stay 30 feet or further. Conga Line tactics are highly recommended. It has a really good AC, but with eight giant spiders you have a pretty good chance of hitting, as in, 94% chance.

One you got that down, just relax and start flinging Magic Stones against the webbing.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I think a Level Paladin6/Sorc7 has a decent shot if they started Sorcerer for the better con saves. Then they just need to nova quicken a haste spell and smite on every single attack. A lower level Sorcadin could do it with luck, if My Pal6/Sorc3 dropped into cage match with one and got lucky with critical hits the radiant damage from smites would quickly overwhelm it.

Demi-Liches do have some interesting weakness that could make the fight easier. They have a low strength score and no basic attacks from what I'm reading. So if you get one into a net he'll be hard pressed to get out of it. Now sure a Demi-Lich has legendary resistances but even after making the save a web spell is still difficult terrain so that will slow it down. If you have a way to keep it in the web or knock it back a couple times once it burns through those resistances it needs to make "strength checks" to escape. A Sorcerer could simply run and keep laying down quickened webs until it burns through the resistances and has to make STRENGTH CHECKS to escape the web.

A skilled grappler could grab one and stuff it into a sturdy metal chest. With a strength of (1) it will NEVER escape without help. You then build a bonfire around the metal box heating it and slowly burn the demilich to death.

Which brings to mind the image of a deaf Kobold buliding a hallway filled with traps all designed to catch the demilich then getting it to chase him.