Why Spellcasters suck vs melee characters

[Frogreaver]

Something in the vein of a wild magic table except all the results are varying degrees of suck that could potentially be imposed on the caster for having the audacity of using their class features. In something like Warhammer you have explicit consequences for casting. They’re spelled out quite plainly in rules and the foundation of the setting. Meanwhile suggestion bears no such text spelling out that an affected creature is aware it was ensorcelled, unlike charm which explicitly spells it out.

So for suggestion, if detection absent magical cues is possible, is it a roll? (D%) is it GM whim?

Everything is GM whim. Determining with no roll. Deciding to use a roll and what dc is required. Even deciding not to do any of that. All is DM whim as you Ungraciously described it.

Personally if I was dm, if you suggested something with subtle spell they could have been mundanely persuaded to do then I’m Going to rule they don’t know they were magically influenced. It’s when you suggest something they can’t mundanely be persuaded to do where that possibility comes into play. Where self reflection and investigation can reasonably lead The NPC to concluding they were magically influenced.

[OldTrees1]

Personally if I was dm, if you suggested something with subtle spell they could have been mundanely persuaded to do then I’m Going to rule they don’t know they were magically influenced. It’s when you suggest something they can’t mundanely be persuaded to do where that possibility comes into play. Where self reflection and investigation can reasonably lead The NPC to concluding they were magically influenced.

I agree with this distinction. I would further expand that middle.

1. Some suggestions are so reasonable, that while they do change behaviour, it might be too hard to notice.
2. Then there are the suggestions that would, on further inspection, have the chance to reveal there was some influence, but could not tell if it was a mundane con man or a spell.
3. Beyond that are the suggestions that would, on further inspection, have the chance to reveal a magical degree of influence.

Personally I also allow the non mundane Extraordinary abilities to reach category 3. However that is an area where some DMs differ.


To answer X's question:
I would have the NPC make an Insight check later against a DC. I would estimate by accounting for factors about how noticable the influence was.

[patchyman]

I agree with this distinction. I would further expand that middle.

1. Some suggestions are so reasonable, that while they do change behaviour, it might be too hard to notice.
2. Then there are the suggestions that would, on further inspection, have the chance to reveal there was some influence, but could not tell if it was a mundane con man or a spell.
3. Beyond that are the suggestions that would, on further inspection, have the chance to reveal a magical degree of influence.

Personally I also allow the non mundane Extraordinary abilities to reach category 3. However that is an area where some DMs differ.

Agreed. Again, assuming a sorcerer who has taken the Subtle spell Metamagic.

[OldTrees1]

Agreed. Again, assuming a sorcerer who has taken the Subtle spell Metamagic.

Or other situation where the origins and start of the effect are concealed to the victim. Subtle Suggestion being the most easy to use example. Basically if the victim did not observe any observable information about the start of the effect, then it can only be detected by the effect.

[MaxWilson]

I think it is unwise for a caster to ignore these later consequences of the spell. Especially since those consequences can be mitigated/negated/exploited.

One smart way to mitigate them would be to never cast spells directly on your constituents, but only to undermine your opponents. E.g. Subtly Suggest to Opponent A that the Duke's mother is totally hot and into him and he should make a blatant move on her as soon as they are alone, then arrange for them to be left briefly alone somehow (through bribes or more magic). "A wizard made me do it" is not necessarily a persuasive defense, although it could be if the Duke is open-minded enough.

Creating personal scandals, making greedy industrialists cause disasters that kill their workers, signing your opponent up to support unpopular causes and then either back out (and look wishy washy) or be stuck supporting them... all of these require more gameplay than _just_ casting Subtle Suggestion, but Subtle Suggestion is one way to make them work.

And a non-spellcaster like a Rogue or even Fighter could replicate some but not all of the dirty tricks. They'd still have fun gameplay available to them in this scenario, just not quite as many options as someone whose PC is built specifically for it, which seems fair.

[OldTrees1]

One smart way to mitigate them would be to never cast spells directly on your constituents, but only to undermine your opponents. E.g. Subtly Suggest to Opponent A that the Duke's mother is totally hot and into him and he should make a blatant move on her as soon as they are alone, then arrange for them to be left briefly alone somehow (through bribes or more magic). "A wizard made me do it" is not necessarily a persuasive defense, although it could be if the Duke is open-minded enough.

Creating personal scandals, making greedy industrialists cause disasters that kill their workers, signing your opponent up to support unpopular causes and then either back out (and look wishy washy) or be stuck supporting them... all of these require more gameplay than _just_ casting Subtle Suggestion, but Subtle Suggestion is one way to make them work.

And a non-spellcaster like a Rogue or even Fighter could replicate some but not all of the dirty tricks. They'd still have fun gameplay available to them in this scenario, just not quite as many options as someone whose PC is built specifically for it, which seems fair.

Oh wow, I forgot about the "make the consequences irrelevant" case in my mitigated/negated/exploited list. Yeah even if your opponent discovers they were influenced, that does not really matter. They already are your opponent.

[MaxWilson]

Oh wow, I forgot about the "make the consequences irrelevant" case in my mitigated/negated/exploited list. Yeah even if your opponent discovers they were influenced, that does not really matter. They already are your opponent.

Well, it might matter if your opponent views this as an escalation and responds to your magical attacks by hiring assassins. Voila! adventure fuel!

Perhaps you planned for this and are ready to use the assassination attempt to make them look EVEN WORSE politically.

:)

[patchyman]

Well, it might matter if your opponent views this as an escalation and responds to your magical attacks by hiring assassins. Voila! adventure fuel!

Perhaps you planned for this and are ready to use the assassination attempt to make them look EVEN WORSE politically.

:)

Little do they realize that the idea to send assassins was itself an implanted Suggestion!

[MaxWilson]

Little do they realize that the idea to send assassins was itself an implanted Suggestion!

...which in turn was implanted in the mind of the Subtle sorcerer by the secretly-psionic Chancellor Palpitation, the real power behind the throne(s), who plans to use the Subtle sorcerer's successful assassination as a pretext for increasing military budgets.