So... Oona for President?

[Thecommander236]

Or I mean Redcloak (yes I know that's not actually the name of the position). She's actually willing to listen to what Minrah and Durkon had to say while Redcloak is unlikely to shift his position. Couldn't they just kill Redcloak and give it to Oona? Now, I realize that Thor specifically said that they need a caster to use a nineth level spell slot on the gate to seal it permanently and Oona would definitely not have that when she multiclasses. However, if Team Evil is killed can they just seal the gates like they did before and then wait like 50 years for Oona to level up enough to get nineth level spells? Or hell, just give it to one of the Bugbear clerics that obeys Oona's commands?

After all, to the Bugbears, TDO is "no big whoop". Unless becoming the new high priest of TDO so drastically changes your personality that you HAVE to go as insane as Redcloak, but I doubt that. The Bugbear tribe may not understand what is going on, but they have a lot more to gain than Redcloak has to lose at this point. They will negotiate to get some sweet swag. Now, it may still take years for the new cleric to get up to speed for a nineth level spell, but with the immediate threat of Team Evil gone, the Order has a bargaining chip.

Or hell, can they just loot a nineth level scroll off of Redcloak's corpse and have the new HPotDO cast that instead? After all, the Order shouldn't be negotiating with terror- I mean omnicidal maniacs willing to kill literally everyone for some hypothetical future goblins.

[Lethologica]

1. The problem was not constructed to be short-circuited by ready substitution.
2. Oona is probably high enough level that she'd have to go deep into epic territory to hit 9th-level spells.
3. I don't see much evidence that Oona has clerics at her beck and call.
4. Oona is not expressing receptivity to the ideas on offer so much as appreciation of the debate techniques used.
5. Redcloak's portion of Thor's ritual takes a 9th-level spell slot. That is not the same as saying any old 9th-level spell will do, scribed or otherwise.

[Lord Raziere]

Will not happen.

Ninth level spells are something only level 17 or higher clerics can cast.

Oona is not a cleric. She is a ranger. that is a class that isn't even capable of casting 5th level spells, much 9th ones. and she is so high level that she has to be able to fight in Monster Hollow and live. meaning even if she did try? wouldn't really work, because she is already too high level in the class she already has, see? you add 17 cleric levels on top of that, you get someone so deep into the epic levels that realistically speaking there is no way she'd ever earn the experience for all of them.

While people have speculated it, the Crimson Mantle that Redcloak wears has not been stated to actually give the wearer any form of levels in cleric. it gives him information on his gods divine plan and stops him from aging, but if gods could just imbue specific artifacts with 17 levels in cleric to whoever wears it carry out their will, the entire Hel in the utterly dwarfed plotline wouldn't even make sense, and would be incredibly inconsistent with how the rules of this world work. unless its stated that Crimson Mantle could do this, it can't be assumed it does. Its safer to assume that Redcloak earned all his levels in cleric the hard way. Dude's 55 years old, thats more than enough time to earn those levels.

As for resealing the gates: not really possible at this point. Anyone who'd know how are dead. sure, Lirian and Dorukan are still in the black gem but.....that was on Xykon's previous body. y'know. the one Roy threw into Dorukan's gate? That then was blown up by Elan? Yeah. if it at all exists....its either broken and both of their souls are hopefully in the afterlife if they are lucky.....or Dorukans rift unmade them both if they aren't. you'd have to hope to somehow find Dorukan again and do we know his alignment? does the Order? and thing is, the Rifts are accelerating at a pace that the gods feel it necessary that they should pull the plug now. any time to wait for a better solution is up, because waiting means the Snarl gets out within a very short amount of time and everything is unmade anyways. There is no time to research, no time to wait for cleric levels to be gained, even if we found someone more realistic like Jirix or the Second Hobgoblin Supreme Leader. If this were a videogame, we would passed the point of no return back when we entered the Godsmoot- now its just Go Time, save the world or die trying.

Basically Redcloak getting redeemed and actually helping to save the world is in fact the highest probability outcome, by both logic and narrative demands. Too little time to research or level up a cleric, 17th level clerics of specifically The Dark One hard to come by, Dorukan and Lirian coming back somehow is a small possibility but not one I'd hold my breath for and even if they could it requires such powerful magic and probably materials to bring them back that there would again be no time to get them back to do anything about this, so even if it did happen it'd more likely be a epilogue thing.

I dunno. People keep bringing up these "alternate end ideas" that Jirix or Oona or Hobgoblin Supreme Leader 2 will somehow swoop in and save us all from Redcloak needing to be the one convinced to save the day and that Redcloak will somehow get some much deserved comeuppance for all that he has done....and I'm just not seeing it. The harsh truth of such negotiations is that you can't choose who you negotiate with. Redcloak's the one in the position of power to change things, he's the goblin with The Plan, The Divine Magic, The Time and The Place to make it happen. Anyone else would either require time that the stickworld simply doesn't have and/or be so far away or out of reach that it would take a convoluted chain of events to happen or outright deus ex machinas to make work. Like any other person to do it would take too many extra steps to replace him.

[Thecommander236]

I just assume that they are going to trick RC to use a nineth level spell on the gate. If any old 9th level spell would do, then why not just disguise the gate and stand in behind it? Stay, turn it invisible or something. If RC cast implosion and the gate gets caught in the effect, then the gods have what they need right?

After all, Durkon didn't say what he had to do, so RC wouldn't even think that they WANT him to hit the gate with something.

Besides that, Oona DOES have Bugbear clerics. She specifically says that they have to prep re their spells as fast as possible because the entire tribe interrupts their meditation. They may not be able to use 9th level spells, but again, there may not be as close a time limit for the snarl to break loose.

[understatement]

I just assume that they are going to trick RC to use a nineth level spell on the gate. If any old 9th level spell would do, then why not just disguise the gate and stand in behind it? Stay, turn it invisible or something. If RC cast implosion and the gate gets caught in the effect, then the gods have what they need right?

Nope. The Giant has explicitly stated that it's a 9th-level spell slot willingly given to the ritual. In other words, the spell splot comes from Redcloak specifically and willingly channeling this amount of energy into a ritual he knows/agrees with.

After all, Durkon didn't say what he had to do, so RC wouldn't even think that they WANT him to hit the gate with something.

Besides that, Oona DOES have Bugbear clerics. She specifically says that they have to prep re their spells as fast as possible because the entire tribe interrupts their meditation. They may not be able to use 9th level spells, but again, there may not be as close a time limit for the snarl to break loose.

It took Redcloak over 5 decades to reach 17. For the adventuring Order, it still took 3-5 years to gain ~6 levels. The Snarl broke out of a rift one week ago, and the Godsmoot was only 4-5 days ago. There is definitely a very tight time limit before the gods decide to blow the world.

Also, bonus stuff for Lirian and Dorukan...

Spoiler: includes SOD

Show

1) realize that they are in fact soul-trapped and not just dead. Only 2 people know of the gemstone - Xykon and Redcloak. Neither seems willing to tell. (and ironically, if Redcloak was willing to tell about the stone then he should be on board at that point, which makes the point of the gemstone moot).
2) hope that the gemstone wasn't destroyed by the castle exploding.
2) Defeat Xykon. Easy. Defeat Redcloak as well.
3) Their bodies are destroyed by Dorukan's castle exploding. You need 2 True Resurrections - but literally only Redcloak has been stated to be able to cast 9th-level cleric spells.
4) Not only that, you need 50,000 gp worth of diamonds. The Order doesn't have that type of funds, as seen when they paid the Mechane's crew.
5) Well, easy - just have Durkon level up like 4 levels in the convenient dungeon of high-level monsters nearby. The problem is that the Order, again, doesn't have that time.

There's always the theory, of course, that Durkon could somehow kill Redcloak, become a priest of the Dark One, and put the Mantle on (assuming that the Dark One has the same intelligence and observational skills as Elan), or that Durkon could turn Redcloak into a vampire and mentally control him. There are always theories.

[Lex]

I'd add that if one's view of the Dark One is that he is "no big whoop", he is likely not qualified to gain levels as cleric of the Dark One in the first place.

[Lord Raziere]

There's always the theory, of course, that Durkon could somehow kill Redcloak, become a priest of the Dark One, and put the Mantle on (assuming that the Dark One has the same intelligence and observational skills as Elan), or that Durkon could turn Redcloak into a vampire and mentally control him. There are always theories.

1. Even if that did work....uh.....is durkon high enough level for a ninth level spell slot? He is enough for seventh but...that still leaves four levels to go. like unless Xykon and Redcloak combined equal a ludicrous amount of exp, I don't see it happening. they're worth a great amount sure, but probably not THAT much. also there is alignment conflict: Clerics have to be within one step of their deities alignment, and the Dark One is lawful evil. it would require Durkon to become Lawful Neutral to worship him, at best.

2. Yeah that won't work. Durkon is not a vampire anymore, and all the cleric spells to create undead don't make vampires according to DnD 3.5 srd, I mean apparently they can make vampires in this universe if a few imagine panels about an undead Roy in War and XPs is any indication? But I don't see Durkon casting any spell that does that, not even out of some greater good reasoning and vampire Redcloak first: wouldn't be giving the spell slot willingly because mind control is literally the worst kind of coercion and setting him free from that control would be a negative energy spirit literally be formed from Redcloak's Worst Day of his life and lack all his other experiences. So imagine Redcloak, but without any of the potential good times he might've had with Right-Eye or or his family before they were killed, sure the difference may not be much in this case since Redcloak's entire life is already a very long extended worst day, but it might be enough to tip the personality from being a goblinoid mortal evil that can be reasoned with into being something as far gone and twisted as Xykon is now- he already didn't care about sacrificing goblin lives before, and now he would have undead urges literally telling him to sacrifice them to sate his own hunger for blood. sure it doesn't matter if the world's destroyed, but your literally just going to be unleashing another undead monstrosity on the world for a plan that won't work if the spell be willingly given, since its mind control, unless there is some stupid RAW interpretation of that where a mentally controlled vampire is somehow a willing caster, but then Rich doesn't seem like the type of guy who'd go for that kind of RAW nonsense.

Also its an evil spell, Durkon is not evil, he probably wouldn't cast in the first place simply because of that...and also because of his own experiences being on the receiving end of it. I just don't see it working.

[Quartz]

Also, bonus stuff for Lirian and Dorukan...

Spoiler: includes SOD

Show

1) realize that they are in fact soul-trapped and not just dead. Only 2 people know of the gemstone - Xykon and Redcloak. Neither seems willing to tell. (and ironically, if Redcloak was willing to tell about the stone then he should be on board at that point, which makes the point of the gemstone moot).
2) hope that the gemstone wasn't destroyed by the castle exploding.
2) Defeat Xykon. Easy. Defeat Redcloak as well.
3) Their bodies are destroyed by Dorukan's castle exploding. You need 2 True Resurrections - but literally only Redcloak has been stated to be able to cast 9th-level cleric spells.
4) Not only that, you need 50,000 gp worth of diamonds. The Order doesn't have that type of funds, as seen when they paid the Mechane's crew.
5) Well, easy - just have Durkon level up like 4 levels in the convenient dungeon of high-level monsters nearby. The problem is that the Order, again, doesn't have that time.

Wish might work if V gets to 17th level. And has thousands of spare XP. But it doesn't matter. The 9th level spell must be of the right Quiddity and only Redcloak's purple-quiddity 9th level spell will do.

[understatement]

<respectfully snipped>

Yup, which was why I threw in the comment on the Dark One's observational skills. Besides the two I can't think of any less likely scenarios than Giggles' deification or Roy being able to channel the dead Greek Pantheon.

Wish might work if V gets to 17th level. And has thousands of spare XP. But it doesn't matter. The 9th level spell must be of the right Quiddity and only Redcloak's purple-quiddity 9th level spell will do.

Yeah.

[Thecommander236]

I'd add that if one's view of the Dark One is that he is "no big whoop", he is likely not qualified to gain levels as cleric of the Dark One in the first place.

That's ignoring the fact that the clerics themselves go along with it. From what Oona was saying, they don't try very hard to convince their fellows that they need to pray.

I Will also point out that they can't make vampires anymore. Roy broke the staff that allowed that to occur when he "gave it back" to the new HPoH that was left at the godsmoot.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html Would a shaman work instead of a priest?

[Lex]

That's ignoring the fact that the clerics themselves go along with it. From what Oona was saying, they don't try very hard to convince their fellows that they need to pray.

I Will also point out that they can't make vampires anymore. Roy broke the staff that allowed that to occur when he "gave it back" to the new HPoH that was left at the godsmoot.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html Would a shaman work instead of a priest?

I read that exchange between Oona and Redcloack as an implication that bugbears have actually no TDO clerics, rather than TDO clerics being particularly lax in their faith.

[Metastachydium]

I read that exchange between Oona and Redcloack as an implication that bugbears have actually no TDO clerics, rather than TDO clerics being particularly lax in their faith.

Well, she tells Redcloak that they do worship Big Purple and they do have divine casters. Said casters are presumably not lax in faith, they just don't get much respect from other bugbears, since „in bugbear culture Dark One no big whoop.”

[Lex]

Well, she tells Redcloak that they do worship Big Purple and they do have divine casters. Said casters are presumably not lax in faith, they just don't get much respect from other bugbears, since „in bugbear culture Dark One no big whoop.”

Well, it's of course possible that they have a few TDO clerics (which I also expect to be low level), but then those clerics would likely be among the exceptions that don't share the mindset that the Dark One is no big deal.
My first post was in fact meant to refute that you can pick a random bugbear who isn't a true TDO believer, slap on him a "cleric of TDO" label and gain access to the purple quiddity.

[Metastachydium]

My first post was in fact meant to refute that you can pick a random bugbear who isn't a true TDO believer, slap on him a "cleric of TDO" label and gain access to the purple quiddity.

Yes, agreed, that one seems fairly evident to me as well.

[Fyraltari]

Well, she tells Redcloak that they do worship Big Purple and they do have divine casters. Said casters are presumably not lax in faith

They could very well be. As shown by V and Blackwing's early relationship you don't necessarily have to invest emotionnally for your class features to work.

[Metastachydium]

They could very well be. As shown by V and Blackwing's early relationship you don't necessarily have to invest emotionally for your class features to work.

Blackwing was generally not a very useful class feature (i.e. did not work all that well) until V started to invest those emotions into him, though. Also, in this particular situation, I'd say the cleric is the party (vaguely) analogous to the familiar rather than the god.

[Fyraltari]

Blackwing was generally not a very useful class feature (i.e. did not work all that well) until V started to invest those emotions into him, though. Also, in this particular situation, I'd say the cleric is the party (vaguely) analogous to the familiar rather than the god.

Maybe a better example would be that V’s long studies to become a Wizard were completely useless since anybody can just take a level of Wizard. To be a certain class you don’t have to behave like it is expected of you, you can just take the right level and go through the motions of the absolute minimum required to keep those abilities.

I can easily picture the bugbear shamans as being the guys with under average strength and dexterity but above average wisdom and intelligence who had to decide between being the tribe’s least competent hunter or its only healer.

[Metastachydium]

Maybe a better example would be that V’s long studies to become a Wizard were completely useless since anybody can just take a level of Wizard. To be a certain class you don’t have to behave like it is expected of you, you can just take the right level and go through the motions of the absolute minimum required to keep those abilities.

I can easily picture the bugbear shamans as being the guys with under average strength and dexterity but above average wisdom and intelligence who had to decide between being the tribe’s least competent hunter or its only healer.

That's a more convincing point for sure; nevertheless, permit me to remind you that clerics do have to stay on the good side of their deities should they wish to keep their class features, as per the rules: „[a] cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description)” (cf. „[a] cleric or druid who has lost the ability to cast spells by incurring the anger of his or her deity may regain that ability by seeking atonement from another cleric of the same deity or another druid. If the transgression was intentional, the casting cleric loses 500 XP for his intercession. If the transgression was unintentional, he does not lose XP.”) As for „I don't actually give half a damn about you, but I need those powers so pay up”, it sounds like something that would, perhaps, incur the anger of any deity.

[Fyraltari]

That's a more convincing point for sure; nevertheless, permit me to remind you that clerics do have to stay on the good side of their deities should they wish to keep their class features, as per the rules: „[a] cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description)” (cf. „[a] cleric or druid who has lost the ability to cast spells by incurring the anger of his or her deity may regain that ability by seeking atonement from another cleric of the same deity or another druid. If the transgression was intentional, the casting cleric loses 500 XP for his intercession. If the transgression was unintentional, he does not lose XP.”) As for „I don't actually give half a damn about you, but I need those powers so pay up”, it sounds like something that would, perhaps, incur the anger of any deity.

I disagree, « I don’t particularly care about you, but scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours » is an agreement most deities would find acceptable in my opinion. The boss doesn’t really care what the office drone thinks as long as the work is done on time, and the office drone doesn’t like the boss or the work itself for that matter but they need the wages so they’ll do the work.

The Dark One has never even talked to his High Priest so he’s clearly not the micromanaging type. As long as the shaman says the right prayers and do whatever duties are expected of them would the Dark One really care that their sermons lack punch?

Of course if the shaman grossly violates the tenets of the Dark One, by preaching friendship with the roundteeths for example, then their ass is ash. But as long as they’re within acceptable parameters of zeal, why bother?

[elros]

Has the Giant ever addressed

Spoiler: the location of the gem

Show

that Xykon used to hold the souls of Dorukan and Lirian?

I assumed the Giant intended to bring both of them back, but no one knows where it is!

[Metastachydium]

I disagree, « I don’t particularly care about you, but scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours » is an agreement most deities would find acceptable in my opinion. The boss doesn’t really care what the office drone thinks as long as the work is done on time, and the office drone doesn’t like the boss or the work itself for that matter but they need the wages so they’ll do the work.

The Dark One has never even talked to his High Priest so he’s clearly not the micromanaging type. As long as the shaman says the right prayers and do whatever duties are expected of them would the Dark One really care that their sermons lack punch?

Of course if the shaman grossly violates the tenets of the Dark One, by preaching friendship with the roundteeths for example, then their ass is ash. But as long as they’re within acceptable parameters of zeal, why bother?

That's a fine position. Still, I'd say someone like Oona is probably not quite within those acceptable parameters of zeal (nice turn of phrase, by the way), and, subsequently bugbear clerics likely invest a little more into this relationship than the average bugbear does.

[Fyraltari]

I mean that’s their job description. But I’d wager they’re still closer to Oona than Jirix.

[Metastachydium]

Quite likely. I mean, they are bugbears.

[Quebbster]

Has the Giant ever addressed

Spoiler: the location of the gem

Show

that Xykon used to hold the souls of Dorukan and Lirian?

I assumed the Giant intended to bring both of them back, but no one knows where it is!

Spoiler

Show

It may have served its story purpose when Xykon used it to get Dorukan out of his dungeon. It could easily have been destroyed when the Dungeoun blew up. Of course, the same could be said about Dorukan's headband, so who knows?